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I had a chance today to play a brand new small Kawai grand. Boy, what a difference from my residence piano. The Kawai was pleasant to play, however, it sounded like a blanket was placed over it. I realize that these are fine machines, but how many out there like a muted versus a bright piano? I, personally, like a strident cutting tone. What say all?

I personally prefeer a dark/mellow and coloured piano than a bright/strident one . I think music must sound as poetry and for me , poetry is something , dark ,mellow,delicate...

I think I like a medium bright… not tinny or brassy, or shrill or harsh; a rich, clear bright. My Yamaha C7 might be described as both bright and mellow. Even the upper-most treble notes bark with good power or whimper with quiet reserve.

However, I do enjoy playing a mellow, European sounding piano. I had a Petrof studio upright that had a very nice, mellow, European tone… thing is, when I really wanted some power, it seemed subdued. I recon it’s all a compromise in some form or fashion.

Rick

I have a Knabe grand from 1924 that measures in at 6' 4". When I first considered it, it seemed so dark and mellow. And it is. But I notice it mostly as I might compare it to today's pianos, which to me sound too bright. If I'm doing solo piano, or accompanying a vocalist, I prefer the dark, rich sound of my piano. But playing in an ensemble of any sort, a combo, or a full jazz band or rock band, I prefer a brighter sound that can cut through the mix. But for the size house I have, if I had a bright sound on my Knabe, OSHA would probably get involved and declare my house unsafe to live in.

I think it depends a lot on the kind of music you play most. I play a lot of classical, a lot of Standards (mostly ballads), and a lot of softer music, so mellow is best for me. However, if you really bop, I would think you would like a brighter sound, possibly with a singing treble.

I don't think it's that simple. You can have a warm or mellow tone without it being muffled (which is not a good thing). Similarly, you can have a brighter piano without it sounding strident (which is not a good thing). This will largely depend on the characteristics of the hammers, and the overall design of the piano.

Greetings,
The brightness has be qualified. It is easy to harden a set of hammers to glassy brilliance, or needle them into soft lumps that sound like marshmallows hitting the strings. It is difficult to get both in one hammer. However, that is what needles are for.

A great piano will be mellow and muted at the softest level and brilliant, even clangorous, at the other extreme. This is the art of voicing, to leave a palette of malleable tone, evenly across the board. When a pianist can change the tone with volume, there is another dimension to the music. Ears are more sensitive to higher frequencies, so a note with more of them will be heard more easily, even if the volume is only slightly increased. The melodic line can stand out through a more brilliant voice rather than having to rely on sheer loudness for identity.

Some pianists would rather that the range be created so that brilliance is very easily achieved, other prefer the additional control that comes with a softer beginning. How it is used is also important, what is optimum for a concerto is going to be rather aggressive for vocal accompaniment, etc.
Regards,

If it is a new piano, I look for something totally different than I would on a piano with some mileage on it. Being able to play many different brands, and often do, I have developed expectations from different manufacturers as to what their tonal objective is for their instruments. I don't want, or expect, a Bosendorfer to sound like a Steinway.

That said, I don't want any new piano to sound "bright" as my initial response. I listen for tonal clarity, substance of the sound, and for tonal balance across the registers. Does the piano respond to different types of finger attack and finger weight with corresponding response from the instrument? I look for "brilliant singing" when I need to have melody or inner voices speak out easily. That is, the clarity of Cecilia Bartoli when needed. I also listen for a complex, basic structure and substance, which would sound more like the developed sound of Chanticleer.

I have never understood the term 'dark' when applied to pianos. To me, that is a matter of composition/key as opposed to being intrinsic in the voice of any piano.

The thing I dislike most is "ping." A piano needs to sing, not ping.

All new, high quality pianos, will develop across the first few years. The trick is listening 'into' the tonal structure of any newborn piano. The same applies to a total and fresh re-build of instruments of any age.

Just my opinion, nothing more.

I'd like to add each note should retain traces of its brilliance when mellow and muted.

Rick said "I do enjoy playing a mellow, European sounding piano". Do you find these pianos, all played by the same pianist, to be mellow, bright or European?

Bosendorfer 225
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQmMVFfwk3I&feature=channel&list=UL

Steingraeber 212
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsprahP8ddM&feature=channel&list=UL

Estonia 168
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvpdSTZO25E&feature=channel&list=UL

Bechstein A190
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGFKgUHGCOo&feature=plcp

Bechstein A208
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AIg4Qs2pBg&feature=plcp

This thread shows the difficulty in describing piano tone because there's little agreement on the meanings of words used to describe tone and every person hears things differently. It's kind of a shame there isn't more standardization of terminology although this would be difficult to achieve.

For starters, I'd say that it's not just a choice between mellow or bright but there's a continuum in terms of possible sound in that area. But depending on one's definitions and experience with different pianos, one person's medium bright could be another person's very bright or even mellow.

IMO some of the worst but commonly used words to describe tone are "rich"(who wouldn't want this, whatever it means), "deep bass"(of course, the bass is deep), "bell like"(here the problems is this term seems to be used so many ways). Even "sustain" seems to be used differently by different people.

As usual, Ed does a great job in concisely describing the situation.

Wow, all those pianos sound fabulous!

I found the Bosendorfer to sound the birghtest... as well as the larger C Bechstine (A208). The Steingraeber 212 sounded the mellowest/warmest. The Estonia sounded the most balanced between bright and mellow, at least to me.

All those pianos sounded superb! Best of all, they were in tune.

Rick

There is a lot we're not being told here.

What was the room like? How large was the room in which the piano was located? Was it a "soft" room or a "hard" room?

What are you used to? If you are used to hearing a hard-sounding piano--one with a "strident, cutting tone"--then a normal-sounding piano might well sound like it had a blanket placed over it.

How is your hearing? Not just your personal opinion of your hearing but have you had it actually tested lately? I rebuilt a very nice Conover grand for a woman in her mid-60s some time back. The technicians and musicians who played the piano in our shop loved it; it had a great sound. The owner, however, thought we had "ruined her piano." It wasn't until we had hardened the hammers and brought the tone up to a level that was painful to our hearing that she pronounced the piano "perfect!" And, "Just like it sounded when it was new." Well, its voice was nothing at all like it had been when the piano was new but with her deteriorating hearing--which she was not about ready to acknowledge--she could once again hear the thing.

ddf

And even common wax buildup can significantly affect how loud a piano sounds.

I once went to an ear doctor for some pain in my ear. I don't remember what he did except that he did remove quite a lot of wax. When I got home my piano sounded much louder than before(now it sounds fine). My bedroom air conditioner that had previously been very quiet sounded like an airplane taking off.

"... its voice was nothing at all like it had been when the piano was new but with her deteriorating hearing--which she was not about ready to acknowledge--she could once again hear the thing."

In fact, the piano could have been contributing to her hearing loss. A shrill and strident tone, whacked out for hours at triple forte (which is what a person might do, if their hearing is already impaired), in a very live room... sure, it could collect a toll every time she drives that way.

There must be some ever-so-tactful way to frame that, and when that fails, offer her a good trade-up deal toward a bigger and much louder model. If the customer is always wrong, let her be wrong at top volume.

A full demo of the Roland "V-piano" shows most of the mellow to strident spectrum.

This is a mellow sounding piano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwGBeveXems&feature=relmfu

Or a dead, lifeless, no sound piano depending on one's point of view. If that's your ideal, I think you're in a very small minority.

Has there been any scientific investigations into this? I mean stuff like frequency response/range, decay time, waveform analysis, etc.? Obviously, this would require a multitude of pianos, so are there any dealers/collectors/fabulously wealthy people out there with a good knowledge of acoustic science and access to high quality recording/analysis equipment. I know Adobe Audition has features that allow you to view the frequency range (most recordings will be clumped around 50-5000k, and most mics cut out frequencies about 15k-16k, which is usually just hiss or noise), and a spectral (colored) frequency view. There are also dedicated scientific programs just for this, as well.

Here's what I've done using audio samples from two pianos I saw at a dealership a few weeks back, and recorded with my iPhone (huge image warning). Both are cropped just to show the D natural below middle C. Granted, there's a difference in touch, and were placed at different locations relative to the hammers/soundboard, so bear with me.

Brand new Weber console piano:
A brand new, straight off the assembly line, probably voiced piano. Unusually mellow for a console.

http://www.mediafire.com/?7osodwbb8663k4i

1940s Baldwin Acrosonic Spinet:
The defacto bright piano. That loud spinet sound plus 70 odd years of hardening.

http://www.mediafire.com/?3nca71nu8j8dncu

Right off the bat, you can tell that the Weber has a longer sustain time (.005 seconds longer). There's also a lot more attack on the Acrosonic, shown by the peak in the waveform, while the Weber's waveform is much smoother and more uniform.

Thank you all for the detailed responses. Del, my hearing is acute. My eyesight not so much as twenty years ago. This little Kawai was in a large (approx 60X35) foot room with walls of concrete, or plaster. It was a very old building. I know that my Yamaha is a little brighter than even my tech likes, but as a lover of classic jazz, It pleases me. The Kawai had a very muted tone, not unpleasant at all, but not at all what I would be looking for. BTW, this retailer sells about five brands, and I get the impression that they don't think Yams are even anywhere near the Kawai product. I also know, from years ago, that they think Steinway pianos are famous only for their price, nothing else. Kind of opinionated, but friendly folks, but since the only pianos I have ever owned were a Steinway, and a Yamaha, they seemed a little smug. Many years ago, in Indianapolis, I had a chance to play Yamaha and Kawai grands side by side. It seemed that all the Kawais were more "conservatory" voiced. I have always been attracted to large Yamahas in churches and performing venues, but I attribute that to my tune preferences. I am not a classical pianist at all. More of a stride player, which, I realize may not be the taste of many here. Once again, I certainly respect your input, and always learn from the great comments of the PW contributors.