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#1969757 - 10/07/12 10:06 AM Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano
noahbarkan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 8
Hi there,

first off, wanted to thank everyone on this forum for being so helpful in the past... very much appreciated. I'm a classically trained keyboardist now playing a lot of rock/jazz/solo gigs, and I've been trying to pick out a new digital piano to use for at least the next few years. so here are my thoughts for the keyboard I'm looking for:

(1) needs to be portable.. The FP7F weight is bearable but on the upper side.
(2). Needs firmer, more realistic action... not super picky over yamaha/roland/kawai.
(3). Great organ sound, and a realistic, clean piano sound.
(4). minimal to none MIDI functionality (most keyboards seem to have lots)
(5). building on #4, I don't need any high tech options like lots of rhythms, MIDI, outputs (just aux out).
(6). price - $0-$2000
(7). Speakers would be nice if it doesn't add too much weight.. I'm thinking of getting an amp and/or PA as well.
(8) something that keeps its value so I can resell it later, and is built extremely solidly.

I'm open to waiting a bit for a new model, or purchasing a much older model. I've often found that older technology often seems to work better on a basic level (my GE fridge has been running for 30 years). So, if anyone knows an older model that would work, I could do that as well.

from the research/testing I've done, it seems either the Yamaha CP33 or the P155 is the best deal (pianos more expensive just have more features that I wouldn't use). Still not 100% convinced though. If anyone has any thoughts, or if you know of an old thread that I can refer to, I would appreciate all feedback. thank you so much!
-Noah

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#1969780 - 10/07/12 11:04 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3276
You're not likely to find great organs in a new weighted action board in your price range, but the CP33 and P155 don't even come close. You might be better off looking at a Kawai MP6. With speakers, the only thing I can think of is a Kurzweil SPS4-8 (which is on their site, but I don't think it's quite shipping yet). In an older used model, I think I'd consider a Nord Stage EX 88. Nothing is really going to hit all your ideals, though.

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#1969916 - 10/07/12 04:31 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
If you only need like two good organ presets (ahum), but furthermore firm action, well build, good speakers with solid sound, basically a good piano preset and some good EP's with nice amp simulation, the ES7 is certainly worth trying. Because it costs a lot less than the FP7 (at least over here) and offers a comparible keybed quality and perhaps even better speakers and EP's / organs, although only a handfull. That is if you like the Kawai sound over the SN (although it is technically inferior). If you rather have another piano sound character I would certainly also try the upcoming px350 : much bang for the bucks it seems and the most portable of all options. If speakers are not necessary , there is more choice , mp6 is indeed very good, but the keybed is not so fast as some other options. Or a Nord indeed, bu the keybed of the Nord is good , but not the most realistic piano touch , in that Roland and Kawai and perhaps the new Casio are much better. Considering gigging and carrying I wouldn't decide until you have been able to try ou the new casio Px350 .

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#1970578 - 10/08/12 11:47 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: JFP]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3276
Originally Posted By: JFP
Considering gigging and carrying I wouldn't decide until you have been able to try ou the new casio Px350 .

The issue again is the "great organ" requirement, where I think the Casio is weak. Otherwise, yes, the PX350 or probably even just the PX150 would do it for him.

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#1970617 - 10/09/12 01:33 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: anotherscott]
noahbarkan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 8
I've tried the PX350... the weight is perfect, but the action is really not my thing. I had a few gigs this weekend, I used the CP33... good piano, but not the biggest fan of the organ sound.

I tried the FP-7F... something's a little "fake" about it, but the sound feels more rich. Going to try the Kawai for a gig next week. neither piano seems as solidly built as the CP33, but that could be my imagination.

need something that could make stuff like this sound passable (this is the kind of stuff I like at gigs):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=294TTNzsJIg

thanks again!
-Noah

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#1970621 - 10/09/12 01:44 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9319
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Noah, are you able to hire/borrow the ES7 for your gig?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1970664 - 10/09/12 05:30 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Yeh, I wondered that too, don't seem to be many around already. Perhaps you mean an es6 , or mp6 ? For gigging the MP6 is great, just wonder how you would have liked the RH II on the ES7 for comparison. It plays easier than the RH. Organs and EP's are great though on the Mp6 !

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#1971002 - 10/09/12 08:41 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
Aidan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
The truth of the matter is, you're not going to get anything like a useable organ sound without stepping up to something which at least has a true clonewheel model inside it, such as a Nord Electro or Stage, a Korg Kronos or even a standalone organ like the Hammond SK1. Even something as high end as the Yamaha Motif series doesn't have proper implementation of the percussion model, for starters. One other possible alternative is to use whatever you get to drive a laptop running VB3.
_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1971011 - 10/09/12 09:17 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9319
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Aidan, the FP-7F and MP6 both have tonewheel simulation.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1971015 - 10/09/12 09:27 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: Kawai James]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3276
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Aidan, the FP-7F and MP6 both have tonewheel simulation.

Ah yes, when I suggested the MP6 and possibly the Kurzweil, I forgot, the FP-7F has that too, and that has speakers.

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#1971135 - 10/10/12 02:02 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: anotherscott]
torhu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 183
It's funny how Roland don't mention the organ features of the FP-7F in their product information. But after trying out one, it seems to have the same features as the RD-700NX. Except that there are no faders, you have to press two buttons at once or something like that to control the drawbars. So not much in terms of performance controls. As for other effects than Leslie, I didn't really try that. But the manual is available from Roland's website.
_________________________
Roland RD-700NX // Galaxy Vintage D

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#1971150 - 10/10/12 03:16 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
RafaPolit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Quito, Ecuador
Haven't been here in a while!, so a big 'hello' to all the usual forum members.

I have an FP-7F, and found it to be an almost perfect match to my needs (I'm a classical trained pianist as well). As you may read elsewhere or have inferred by trying the piano, the organ sounds are very, very uneven! The sounds of vintage organs and church organs, etc. are really thin and poor.

On the other hand, the Tone Wheel organ is very, very interesting and powerful. Regretfully, as others have mentioned it, there is no drawbars to make the changes, so they are cumbersome to accomplish quickly and change within a single piece. If you can live with one sound for a complete song, they may be good enough for you.

I agree that Roland does not put a lot of emphasis on promoting the Organs on the videos and other places, but the printed manual appears to only focus on that particular issue for more than half the book! smile

But, back on topic... I think you are asking for a hybrid that most companies have not actually developed: you either have a great organ contraction with non-weighted keys that plays piano very poorly, or you get a fantastic DP that plays organs very poorly. I have not heard of one that excels in both areas. So, you may need to decide if you want to go with the better organ or the better piano choice.

Not much help here, sorry,
Rafa.
ps. Incidentally, the best way to achieve fast, efficient, and nice sounding organ on the FP-7F is, precisely, by taking advantage of midi functions of the FP-7F, but you have requested little to no midi 'workarounds'.
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

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#1971155 - 10/10/12 03:42 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9319
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Hi Rafa, good to see you!
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1971158 - 10/10/12 03:58 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: RafaPolit]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
@Rafa,

Yes, you have a very nice digital in the FP-7F. And, from a pianist's point of view I do believe that it is modeling (possibly combined with sampling) that will carry the day as for quality of piano sounds in the best digitals.

That is why I chose the V-Piano, to have relatively unlimited sustain (or, decay times), realistic action, and, great connectivity to the sounds. Admittedly, some of the presets for the "Vintage 2" (i.e., Bosendorfer models) don't appear to be realistic to my ears (as there are others here that agree with that), although many of the other Silver Strings presets are quite remarkable.

The V does make up for the quality of just the piano sounds with an excellent dynamic range for the player, from "pp" to "ffff." The action responds very well to the slightest nuance of touch.

It remains to be seen if another digital will come along that can either match what the V-Piano does now, or, surpass it.

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#1971234 - 10/10/12 10:02 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
If budget is an issue and the FP7F is out of reach, I think the next two machine to check are MP6 and ES7.

MP6 if you really want a lot of tonewheel organs and customize the settings. (21.5kg no speakers)

ES7 if piano feel is more important and a few organs are enough. They are not bad, but only so little of them (two hammond simulation presets - which are quite OK, two church presets and I think you can customize a bit and save some own registrations). (22kg with some good speakers)

Kurzweil has some nice organs too, but the piano - we all know about that...And the touch; but perhaps the coming SP5-8 will have a better keybed, leaving just the sample based sound to much dated, but perhaps you can cover that with a laptop. (22kg - no speakers ??)

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#1971241 - 10/10/12 10:17 AM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: JFP]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3276
Originally Posted By: JFP
If budget is an issue and the FP7F is out of reach, I think the next two machine to check are MP6 and ES7.

FYI, in the US, the FP7F and ES7 cost the same.

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#1971289 - 10/10/12 12:04 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
OK , well definitely not over here : price difference of € 400 ~ € 500 euro's ($ 515 ~ $ 645), depending on where you buy it. In general it will be a difference of about $ 600 (US dollars). So in some countries the ES7 is well worth the consideration.

Don't know where NoahBarkan lives...

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#1971393 - 10/10/12 03:45 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
noahbarkan Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 8
JFP, Pv88, scott, James, aidan, torhu, rafa: thanks for all the responses, much appreciated.

JFP - I live in the US. There are two music stores around here that are selling the Kawai ES7 and the FP7F, both for around $1750 (the kawai store allows trade-in for higher models, and the owner's a real chill guy who will let me try it).

James - Will try to locate an MP6, although the kawai store guy told me the action wasn't going to be as good as the ES7...is this accurate? I just realized that speakers may be useful, as about 1/2 the gigs I do are small venues and may not need an amp if the speakers are good enough.

Rafa - do you use the FP7-F for gigs..how's the weight? if the midi programming isn't too complicated, I suppose that could work.. I'm assuming you can save your settings.

Pv88 - what exactly is modeling vs. sampling? sounds very intriguing.

-Noah

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#1971411 - 10/10/12 04:20 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Mmmmm, shame that the Kawai prices are so high in the US. Actually I'm surprised by that, because really almost everything is way cheaper in the States than over here. Kawai is an exception - the reason is unclear to me. Otherwise the ES7 would be much more interesting to you price wise. Mp6 is great allround, but the action is indeed noticeable inferior to fp7 or es7 in terms of repetition. If you could try them both you could decide for yourself, that would be the best.

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#1971444 - 10/10/12 05:13 PM Re: Yamaha CP33 vs. Roland FP7F vs. Kawai ES7 vs. oldstage piano [Re: noahbarkan]
RafaPolit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 263
Loc: Quito, Ecuador
Originally Posted By: noahbarkan
Rafa - do you use the FP7-F for gigs..how's the weight? if the midi programming isn't too complicated, I suppose that could work.. I'm assuming you can save your settings.

Noah,

I use it mostly for mass playing in weddings and such things. The weight is not that big a deal if carried by two fellows. Alone, its almost impossible or very risky for the piano(but take in mind I have yet to purchase a decent case for the piano, so I carry it in the original cardboard box with the foam sides... but don't tell anyone I told you this fact of which I'm very ashamed of! frown smile ).

Transportation is an issue as it does not fit on most cars side to side (that is, you cannot put it in a regular sized sedan on the back seat, you need to carry it as a sleeping drunk lying on your passengers seat smile ). But that is true for any 88 keyboard, so that is not a problem of the Roland, but of the size of the keys, if that is a problem, you need to find one of the 77 or 66 key solutions.

The midi issue: well, it depends on how comfortable you are with using DAWs. Its not rocket science, but it involves a bit of Midi programming in the form of SysEx messages. The first time you look at them, its certainly daunting and confusing, but once you get the hang of it (and, for instance, make a small excel program to figure out the correct 'verification' data to end the sysex with) its more or less straightforward.

But, I insist, there is a learning curve, no doubt about it. But, perhaps, the buttons and saved registrations is all you need for your style? Only testing it will tell, but I assume that is hard to do without extensive knowledge, so I'll try and answer any doubt you may have, though I use it mostly as a piano.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide,

Rafa.

ps. James, good to see you all too, its great to see you are still here helping out everyone and anyone, be it for your brand or others! Great to see you.

ps2. I'll let Pv88 explain what modeling vs. sampling is in length, but there are some companies that have started using math and wave modeling techniques which don't depend on sampling, while others are using more evolved sampling techniques, and some are using a mix of both. Dewster has proved in his DPBSD Project that the Rolands like the FP-7F use a mixture of both in order to avoid looping at the very long sustained notes. Models like the V-Piano (or the PianoTeq software) use only modeling. Its a nice moment where everyone is stretching these techniques to new grounds reaching very distinctive and interesting sounds.



Edited by RafaPolit (10/10/12 05:17 PM)
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

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