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#1972872 - 10/13/12 06:17 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19451
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
If Steinway was being very upfront about their prices, they might say that they have a bigger markup from dealer cost than most other makes.

Upon what do you base this statement? Are you privy to Steinway documentation concerning the per unit/invoice cost to their dealers?
By dealer markup I meant, perhaps imprecisely(?), selling price as percent of dealer cost. Just reading the PB gives that conclusion. If the SMP is calculated based on a standard formula markup from the dealer's wholesale cost and Steinway sells its pianos for a smaller discount from SMP, then I think my conclusion would follow. It's already been mentioned a few times on this thread by other posters.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/13/12 06:21 PM)

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#1972915 - 10/13/12 08:33 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
PLU,

I ask exactly the same question again. How do you arrive at your supposition/conjecture that Steinway is not "being very upfront" about their prices? No one has ever stated that is the case. Are you trying to say that Steinway is lying about being an expensive piano? Are you trying to contend that their instruments are sold at deep discount based on SMP?

Read and comprehend what you write and don't spout mere conjecture for the sake of ill-informed verbage.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1972973 - 10/14/12 12:03 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Ohio, US
I just think it's funny that someone feels the need to steer potential customers away from this site. If anything it shows how much power all of us people who don't exist are percieved to have. Don't go to pianoworld, they will confuse you with ideas and personal experiences and opinions that may interfere with your ability to walk to the nearest seller of pianos in a zombie-like state and mutter "I'll have a number three, super-size it, hold the benches."
_________________________
I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.


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#1973033 - 10/14/12 06:20 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19451
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
PLU,

I ask exactly the same question again. How do you arrive at your supposition/conjecture that Steinway is not "being very upfront" about their prices? No one has ever stated that is the case. Are you trying to say that Steinway is lying about being an expensive piano? Are you trying to contend that their instruments are sold at deep discount based on SMP?

I don't think you understood my post and/or don't understand the concept of SMP.

For example, both I and other posters on this thread said the opposite of what you said I was "trying to contend". We said the discount from SMP was small(not deep). It's also clear from my posts and other posts that Steinway is an expensive piano. Their SMP is high and they typically sell for little markdown from the SMP. Everyone on the planet knows Steinway is expensive.

I think the phrase "Steinway is lying about being an expensive piano" makes no sense in any context, and I certainly didn't say it. Does that mean they'll be really cheap if you just ask them for a lower price?

The PB and Ori and I said the Steinway markup from wholesale cost was higher than most or perhaps all other makers. That is what I think Steinway is not being very upfront about.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/14/12 07:02 AM)

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#1973062 - 10/14/12 08:33 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
PLU,

I asked you two direct questions about a statement that you made as the summation of a response you made to another poster. It was not in reference to SMP at all. To help you with your memory, I shall re-post our exchange.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
[quote=pianoloverus]If Steinway was being very upfront about their prices, they might say that they have a bigger markup from dealer cost than most other makes.

Upon what do you base this statement? Are you privy to Steinway documentation concerning the per unit/invoice cost to their dealers?


You have yet to answer my questions to you directly. Your summation contains very strong implications of how Steinway conducts its business practices.

Please answer my questions without dodging them. Is your 'if/then' statement based on conjecture or fact? Nothing more, nothing less.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1973075 - 10/14/12 09:20 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Little_Blue_Engine]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 790
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
I just think it's funny that someone feels the need to steer potential customers away from this site. If anything it shows how much power all of us people who don't exist are percieved to have. Don't go to pianoworld, they will confuse you with ideas and personal experiences and opinions that may interfere with your ability to walk to the nearest seller of pianos in a zombie-like state and mutter "I'll have a number three, super-size it, hold the benches."


Thanks for making such a good point!

And thanks for attempting to help get this thread back on topic...
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1973084 - 10/14/12 09:48 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19451
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
PLU,

I asked you two direct questions about a statement that you made as the summation of a response you made to another poster. It was not in reference to SMP at all. To help you with your memory, I shall re-post our exchange.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
[quote=pianoloverus]If Steinway was being very upfront about their prices, they might say that they have a bigger markup from dealer cost than most other makes.

Upon what do you base this statement? Are you privy to Steinway documentation concerning the per unit/invoice cost to their dealers?


You have yet to answer my questions to you directly. Your summation contains very strong implications of how Steinway conducts its business practices.

Please answer my questions without dodging them. Is your 'if/then' statement based on conjecture or fact? Nothing more, nothing less.
I have answered your question several times. There is no way to make it any clearer. Why would I have to be privy to a Steinway dealer's cost if their cost relative to other makes is available in the PB using the SMP? That's the whole idea and point of the SMP. Until I have any evidence to the contrary, I assume the PB figures are quite accurate. Fine has been publishing them for over 20 years.

Do you agree or disagree that Steinway's markup from wholesale is higher than most or all makers?

Do you agree or disagree that this conclusion follows from the Piano Buyer and has also been stated by two dealers on this thread?

Do you think that Steinway tells this upfront to their customers? Unless your answer to this question is "yes", then what are you disagreeing with?

Of course, Steinway is not the only maker who doesn't volunteer everything about pricing to potential customers. And I assume this is the case in almost every industry. For example, the whole idea of having a MSRP when the MSRP is much higher than the SMP could be called deceptive. All I did was repeat what has been said countless times before at PW and in the PB.

If the above is not clear, then there is nothing more I can say to make it clear.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/14/12 10:00 AM)

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#1973101 - 10/14/12 10:22 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
PLU,

Now I understand you completely. You have no basis for your statement, you have no direct access to that information, and are merely parroting what other have stated based upon their opinion.

There is no way that I can answer your questions as I don't have access to the facts on which to construct direct and accurate answers. I won't answer based on my conjecture or my assumptions. That would be fruitless.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1973113 - 10/14/12 10:58 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19451
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
PLU,

Now I understand you completely. You have no basis for your statement, you have no direct access to that information, and are merely parroting what other have stated based upon their opinion.

There is no way that I can answer your questions as I don't have access to the facts on which to construct direct and accurate answers. I won't answer based on my conjecture or my assumptions. That would be fruitless.
Of course I have a basis which is the Piano Buyer, Piano Book, and Supplement to the Piano Book which have been around for more than 20 years. If you disagree with any of the figures you should contact Larry Fine. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume his figures are quite accurate, and what you call "parroting" I would call just repeating information that's generally accepted in the piano industry.

Fine's figures aren't "opinion". That word applies to something subjective like piano tone. They may not be perfect, and I think he says somewhere in the PB that occasionally he doesn't find the dealer wholesale costs as given to him by industry people to be completely reliable. I certainly think the figures a generally correct.

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#1973245 - 10/14/12 05:48 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10490
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Plover may not be privvy to the actual dealer cost on Steinways, but I (and many others) are.

Plover's conclusion in correct. However, Sieinway is under no obligation, actual or ethical, to broadcast that information.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1973345 - 10/14/12 09:58 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Steve,

My question to PLU was asking if he has direct access to the Steinway information for the basis of his conclusion. He has yet to admit that he does not. I believe that Steinway has every right to conduct their business practices however they choose and I never intimated that they are anything other than ethical. It was he who intimated that they are not being honest in the way they present their pricing structure. He basically accused Steinway of lying to the buying public. I asked on what he based that conclusion.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#1973371 - 10/14/12 10:49 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19451
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Steve,

My question to PLU was asking if he has direct access to the Steinway information for the basis of his conclusion. He has yet to admit that he does not.{/quote]I've said several times in this thread that my conclusions were based on the methodolgy and figures in the PB which I thought was correct. Steve has verified that I was correct in my understanding of the PB and that their figures are based on figures available to industry professionals.

I never said I had direct access to Steinway wholesale pricing information. I said several times I was using the Pb figures. The wholesale dealer prices are available only to industry professionals. Since you know I don't fall in that category your endlessly repeated question was pointless.

Of course, if you were trying to say that the PB figures are not based on valid information that's another story. You said something to the effect you would have to personally verify figures to base any conclusions on them. I said I trusted the PB figures. It turns out I was correct that the figure were correct. The figures were not "opinion".

[quote=Minnesota Marty] It was he who intimated that they are not being honest in the way they present their pricing structure. He basically accused Steinway of lying to the buying public. I asked on what he based that conclusion.
No, I said they were not being upfront ...meaning, as I specifically said, not telling the public about their pricing mechanism...upfront meaning open and direct about how their selling prices compare to most makers in terms of their margin. Anyone one who has read any of the Supplements to the Piano Book or Piano Buyer would have reached he same conclusion.

This is not the same as lying to the public. Lying is when someone gives out false information. Neither Steinway nor any other maker is obliged to reveal their pricing methodology. I specifically said many other makers were not upfront either because of their use of inflated MSRP. This was not attack on one specific maker or an accusation that any maker was lying.

Every time you asked questions I gave the same answer(basically the same as in this post) and I was correct each time. The figures that you characterized a "opinion" were correct and my conclusions based on those figures were correct.

The conclusions were nothing new. They have been obvious to anyone who read the PB or earlier versions of the PB going back decades.

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#1973375 - 10/14/12 10:59 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: pianoloverus]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19451
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Steve,

My question to PLU was asking if he has direct access to the Steinway information for the basis of
his conclusion. He has yet to admit that he does not.
I've said several times in this thread that my conclusions were based on the methodolgy and figures in the PB and I thought the PB was correct in both those areas. Steve has verified that I was correct in my understanding of the PB and that their figures are based on figures available to industry professionals.

I never said I had direct access to Steinway wholesale pricing information. I said several times I was using the PB figures. The wholesale dealer prices are available only to industry professionals. Since you know I don't fall into that category your endlessly repeated question was pointless.

If you were trying to suggest that the PB figures are not based on valid information that's another story. You said something to the effect you would have to personally verify figures to base any conclusions on them. I said I trusted the PB figures. It turns out I was correct that the figure were correct. The figures were not "opinion".

Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
It was he who intimated that they are not being honest in the way they present their pricing structure. He basically accused Steinway of lying to the buying public. I asked on what he based that conclusion.

No, I said they were not being upfront ...meaning, as I specifically said, not telling the public about their pricing mechanism...upfront meaning open and direct about how their selling prices compare to most makers in terms of their margin. Anyone one who has read any of the Supplements to the Piano Book or Piano Buyer would have reached he same conclusion as I did unless they think that Steinway announces to their customers "Our discount from SMP is less than other dealers."

This is not the same as lying to the public. Lying is when someone gives out false information. Neither Steinway nor any other maker is obliged to reveal their pricing methodology. I never said Steinway gives out false information. I did specifically say that many other makers were IMO not upfront either(because of their use of an inflated and arbitrary MSRP). My comments were not confined to one specific maker or an accusation that any maker was lying.

Every time you asked questions I gave the same answer(basically the same as in this post) and I was correct each time. The figures that you characterized as "opinion" were correct and my conclusions based on those figures were correct. I had more faith in the PB figures than you apparently did.

The conclusions I gave were nothing new. They have been obvious to anyone who read the PB or earlier versions of the PB going back several decades. I was retelling a very old story.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/14/12 11:19 PM)

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#1973384 - 10/14/12 11:31 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Nick Mauel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 790
Loc: Sarasota and Naples, FL
Originally Posted By: Nick Mauel
Originally Posted By: Little_Blue_Engine
I just think it's funny that someone feels the need to steer potential customers away from this site. If anything it shows how much power all of us people who don't exist are percieved to have. Don't go to pianoworld, they will confuse you with ideas and personal experiences and opinions that may interfere with your ability to walk to the nearest seller of pianos in a zombie-like state and mutter "I'll have a number three, super-size it, hold the benches."


Thanks for making such a good point!

And thanks for attempting to help get this thread back on topic...



I just wanted to post this again.

Topic please?
_________________________
Nick's Piano Showroom
Naples, Fort Myers, & Sarasota, FL
New Estonia, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, Brodmann & Ritmuller
239-206-4541 direct line
www.nickspiano.com

Concert Piano Technician, Dealer, and Pianist

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#1973519 - 10/15/12 09:56 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
turandot Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7219
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Nick Mauel


I just wanted to post this again.

Topic please?



I don't know Nick. I guess you wouldn't want this thread to be Exhibit A in proving that the advice here is good, but when it comes right down to specific questions from people who appear here genuninely looking for advice, my take is that the advice given is generally sound.

Understand that pianos deteriorate over time.

Get an inspection of a used piano,

Verify the claimed date of manufacture of used pianos.

Understand that "rebuilt" is a very vague term. Investigate accordingly.

Play a bunch of pianos before selling out for one.

If you're not a player, bring one along when shopping.

Understand the pricing game and exercise your right to negotiate.

Realize that acoustics and digitals are different animals with different strengths and weaknesses.

These are pretty standard cautions given here and I don't think they can be faulted. Maybe regular readers get tired of reading them, bu they're valuable cautions IMO.

Even the retailers here are pretty circumspect when it comes to giving specific answers to specific requests for advice. Maybe it's only because the glare of the public spotlight is different from the privacy of the showroom, but that's irrelevant to the genuine novice buyer.

Now, when someone comes on here asking "which piano should I buy?", the advice provided is likely to be less useful, but that goes to the impossibility of the question.

Surely you have your own opinion. Do you want to share it?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1973587 - 10/15/12 01:02 PM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Nick Mauel]
Scott McBain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 125
Loc: San Jose / Fremont / Bay Area
It is expected and respected that Turandot would have the last word...rightfully so and again spot on.

Oops...I guess I have the last word.

Sorry
_________________________
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#1973956 - 10/16/12 07:10 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: James Scott]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5316
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: James Scott
I was at a little after hours seminar at their store not too long ago and I went thinking that it was going to be a good seminar on technical stuff but only turned out to be a sales pitch.

Caution! Semi-commercial spiel coming up...

Speaking of seminars in Phoenix...I'll be putting on a (mostly) technical session at the Phoenix Young Chang/Weber dealer in conjunction with the local PTG chapter on November 5th. I'll be going through the design process and features of the new YC/Weber pianos. This will be a technical session for tuners and technicians but shouldn't be difficult for the reasonably knowledgeable amateur to follow.

I'm sure visitors will be welcomed. You'll have to track down the name of the dealer to get the time and location. I'm in China at the moment and have limited access to that kind of information. (Besides, all I have to do is arrive at the airport on time; Larry Fresch--YC's DSM--and crew handle the rest.)

ddf


Edited by Del (10/16/12 07:23 AM)
_________________________
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(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1973999 - 10/16/12 10:10 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: Del]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6370
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Del
Originally Posted By: James Scott
I was at a little after hours seminar at their store not too long ago and I went thinking that it was going to be a good seminar on technical stuff but only turned out to be a sales pitch.

Caution! Semi-commercial spiel coming up...

Speaking of seminars in Phoenix...I'll be putting on a (mostly) technical session at the Phoenix Young Chang/Weber dealer in conjunction with the local PTG chapter on November 5th. I'll be going through the design process and features of the new YC/Weber pianos. This will be a technical session for tuners and technicians but shouldn't be difficult for the reasonably knowledgeable amateur to follow.

I'm sure visitors will be welcomed. You'll have to track down the name of the dealer to get the time and location. I'm in China at the moment and have limited access to that kind of information. (Besides, all I have to do is arrive at the airport on time; Larry Fresch--YC's DSM--and crew handle the rest.)

ddf

Wow - that's great !! I'll definitely try to attend if I don't have a schedule conflict.
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#1974430 - 10/17/12 07:50 AM Re: How Good is the Advice From PianoWorld Members? [Re: carey]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5316
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Del
Caution! Semi-commercial spiel coming up...

Speaking of seminars in Phoenix...I'll be putting on a (mostly) technical session at the Phoenix Young Chang/Weber dealer in conjunction with the local PTG chapter on November 5th. I'll be going through the design process and features of the new YC/Weber pianos. This will be a technical session for tuners and technicians but shouldn't be difficult for the reasonably knowledgeable amateur to follow.

I'm sure visitors will be welcomed. You'll have to track down the name of the dealer to get the time and location. I'm in China at the moment and have limited access to that kind of information. (Besides, all I have to do is arrive at the airport on time; Larry Fresch--YC's DSM--and crew handle the rest.)

ddf

Wow - that's great !! I'll definitely try to attend if I don't have a schedule conflict.

The rest of the information is:

The store is AZ Piano
Jason Sipe
4134 E. Wood St.
Phoenix, Ca. 85040
602-437-8445
info@azpiano.com

It starts at 7 pm and goes until about 9 pm or until I get tired of talking.

I'll probably put this information under its own heading later. Any and all Piano Forum members are welcome. Hope you can make it.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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