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#1991608 - 11/27/12 05:07 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2435
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Yes, I should be more aware of other peoples levels and difficulties.

My perspective is that the further along the path one is to being fluent with a piece the harder it is to stop and pay attention to every note. But each phrase must have a melodic line and a volume line and each note has a starting point, a velocity, and a discrete finishing point, whether it's a point in time or in relation to the next note and in some pieces this last is critical e.g. in a Bach fugue or where the pedal is not being used.

It's hard to focus enough attention to these details when the whole phrase is already in the fingers. It takes several times longer to get a piece performance ready if it's left that long but would add barely a few minutes to the overall learning time if considered from the outset when you're spending time on each note anyway.

It's a bit like memorising a piece. Memorising takes slow repetitions of short phrases or part phrases. Exactly the same process as accurate finger memory. So why not do the two things together? Once you can play the piece fluently from the score it is drudgery to repeat it slowly in short units.

Trying to memorise a piece a line or two at time seems to take an age to sink in and yet is forgotten again in the blink of an eye.
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#1992409 - 11/29/12 12:58 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

My perspective is that the further along the path one is to being fluent with a piece the harder it is to stop and pay attention to every note.


Finally going back to Beethoven Moonlight Sonata (1st movement,) and now that I am reading the score there are a few more problems then I thought. The work has been engrained in my memory, incorrectly, for years. Trying to fix these issues now is not insurmountable, but is certainly more difficult then I thought it was going to be.

Will take a listen to Schubert now and get back on the beam. I'm totally stressed by work at the moment and need to step away from it. I'm thankful though to have this forum and a piano directly behind me, for a much needed escape.
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#1992415 - 11/29/12 01:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Again we're running into the fact that there are different ways of doing things. Ever since I discovered that I've been going hog wild finding them, because there may be something better than what I know.
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

My perspective is that the further along the path one is to being fluent with a piece the harder it is to stop and pay attention to every note.

It does not necessarily have to be every note. It can be a group of notes, a specific movement in order to not make it awkward. In chunking you work on what is difficult, and spend little time on what comes easy for the first stage. This is part of what I've learned.
Quote:

But each phrase must have a melodic line and a volume line and each note has a starting point, a velocity, and a discrete finishing point, whether it's a point in time or in relation to the next note and in some pieces this last is critical e.g. in a Bach fugue or where the pedal is not being used.

Among others. To my surprise, focusing on each of these individually seems to make it come together faster than focusing on all of them at the same time. It's not what I expected or did in the past.
Quote:

It's hard to focus enough attention to these details when the whole phrase is already in the fingers. It takes several times longer to get a piece performance ready if it's left that long

That is assuming that the first stage takes a long time. What if it doesn't?
Quote:

but would add barely a few minutes to the overall learning time if considered from the outset when you're spending time on each note anyway.

That is what I found was not true for me. Since I cannot focus on more than one new thing at a time, all of it stays at a given level, and even weeks later that level doesn't improve much. If I work on one layer at a time, then in the same number of weeks it sounds better and improves steadily. Again, it may be depend on the person playing, their level, and even the nature of the piece. I'm working on a piece now where I'm going backward from how I usually work.
Quote:

Memorising takes slow repetitions of short phrases or part phrases.

That is one approach to memorizing music. Depending on the piece, you may also be aware of patterns. I think it also depends on how you are relating to the music. I tend to hear it in my head as if it's unfolding. If you have a simple ternary piece then you're almost predicting that the melody will repeat in the dominant or relative major key and maybe predicting the chord progressions as well.
Quote:
Once you can play the piece fluently from the score it is drudgery to repeat it slowly in short units.

I find it fascinating - like a treasure hunt - to keep seeing different sides of the music. It's like getting a new pet canary. What shades of feathers does it have? How does it fly? How does it chirp? What is its song like? When does it like to sing? How about its personality? I see the different aspects of a piece in this way.

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#1992467 - 11/29/12 03:24 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Schubert, Op. 94/6, Allegretto

Not sure how interested in these we all are, but since I just worked on them for the last hour, I am going to post them. Plus it helps me understand better and learn the piece. So here is;

Theme 1 Chords, key of Ab Major;
-1) Ab
1) Dbmaj7
2) Db6, Bbm6/Db
3) Fm/C
4) Fm7/C, Ab
5) Eb7/Bb, Ab
6) Eb/C, Bb7/F
7) Ebmaj7sus4
8) Eb, Ab7
9) Dbmaj7
10) Db6, G7/Db
11) Csus4
12) C
13) Eb7/Bb, Ab
14) Bbm/Db, Eb7
15) Eb7/Ab
16) Ab

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#1992499 - 11/29/12 04:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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Just a tiny point, Jeff, and I know you have it but, for those following you might want to edit the chord in M14.
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#1992502 - 11/29/12 05:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Just a tiny point, Jeff, and I know you have it but, for those following you might want to edit the chord in M14.


I'm quite happy this is all you are pointing out. Actually, I struggled a bit with this one. It is the Bm/Db you are not so keen on? OK, have changed to Db6. I hope this is the one you mean.

I'm quite liking this piece now, the chords are fun. I think I'll learn it. It is pretty straight forward and great for my reading practice.
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#1992507 - 11/29/12 05:15 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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I was thinking more along the lines of adding a flat sign to B minor! smile
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#1992514 - 11/29/12 05:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I was thinking more along the lines of adding a flat sign to B minor! smile


There I go again, over thinking things. Yes, I like this better. Fixed.
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#1992516 - 11/29/12 05:38 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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I am mulling over your post on memorising and learning methodology, keystring. I'll come back to it when I've had more thinking time but many of the differences I suspect are due to differences in the system as a whole and the psychology/attitude to learning rather than the individual points.

Much of it also may be affected by time.

I always used to learn HS before even considering HT when approaching a piece for the first time. Much of it was to do with my sight-reading ability (or lack thereof) but shortly after joining this wonderful forum I discussed the point here and following interaction with Brian Lucas and CarlosCC, among others, I experimented both with sight reading and starting HT.

In my short time here my sight-reading has blossomed like never before and, especially since starting these analysis threads, I find myself sight-reading grade six and seven material without major upsets. I still work most passages HS as well as HT because I find it helps to memorise the material better in cognisant memory whereas memorising with only HT practise develops finger memory better but cognisant memory hardly at all and finger memory is unreliable in performance and unhelpful working away from the piano.

So I still memorise HS before HT but they're both done at the one time (not simultaneously, obviously, but RH, LH, HT, RH, LH, HT etc.). It's a big change in system but outwardly only in the time factor.

But it's good to have another viewpoint in the thread.
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#1992628 - 11/29/12 11:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Schubert, Op. 94/6, Allegretto

Continuing right along then;

-) Fb7
17) Fb7
18) Abm/Eb, Dbm7
19) Dbm7
20) Abm/Cb
21) Dbm6
22) Dbm6/Bb, Fb add 11, Bbdim
23) Cb/Eb
24) Eb, Fb7
25) Fb7
26) Abm/Eb, Dbm7
27) Dbm7
28) Abm/Cb, Fb/Cb
29) E/B
30) Emaj7/B
31) C#/B
32) F#m add 11, E/G#, B7/A
33) E



Edited by Greener (11/30/12 06:00 PM)

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#1992701 - 11/30/12 06:31 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Online   content
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Schubert, Op. 94/6, Allegretto

Originally Posted By: Greener
I haven't re-verified everything yet. But, hopefully fairly close. Will check again in morning.

I'll let you give this a morning proof-read before I step in.

My eldest is in his final school year before university and I've been helping him a little with his maths. In algebra he gets the method right but slips up with his signs. He sees the number as important and the sign as trivial and I've been trying to make him see the sign as an integral part of the number. (Incidentally, just the way I see velocity as much a part of the note as it's pitch.) Clearly he hasn't experienced debt yet; he knows the amount but doesn't know if he owes or is owed!

You seem to be having a similar problem. It's clear you're understanding the harmony and those following without attempting to work the stuff out themselves won't be inconvenienced but those checking their findings with yours might get confused.

Double check M21-25 for mode and number. M22 may be another matter entirely but I'll wait first.
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#1992751 - 11/30/12 09:52 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Schubert, Op. 94/6, Allegretto
My eldest is in his final school year before university and I've been helping him a little with his maths. In algebra he gets the method right but slips up with his signs.


I could see where this was leading immediately, and it wasn't sounding good for me blush .

Fixed now. But I got rid of the Fbmaj7/Db frown which I thought was so cool. Perhaps the names aren't as cool now, but the chords are still very nice.

Hopefully this is better but I don't think completely correct yet. I'm not sure what to do about beat 2 in M22 and now need to run for a bit.


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#1992772 - 11/30/12 10:48 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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On my walk up to the bank I was thinking more about this and realize I am WAY OFF again with a couple of things.

Please leave with me for a bit longer. I need to rethink and still have couple more errands, before I get to it.
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#1992776 - 11/30/12 10:59 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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I'd just typed up my response but will leave it for now! smile
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#1992786 - 11/30/12 11:21 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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OK, I'll take my scolding now. I wasn't as far off as I was thinking, but went back to the Fb7 as E7/Fb is clearly not right.

And another thought ...

How about Abm9/Cb for beat 2 of M22. Using nines makes me nervous though. You will see in my chart I am bypassing this now, but likely needs to be mentioned. I'm stumped.

Lights are coming on ... is F natural in first beat of M22? That would give me a whole new perspective ...

hold on ...


Edited by Greener (11/30/12 11:54 AM)
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#1992796 - 11/30/12 12:08 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Schubert, Op. 94/6, Allegretto

Originally Posted By: Greener
OK, I'll take my scolding now.

<sharpens knife> smile

22. From the Db m6 in M21, Db moves to Bb in the bass and Eb in the melody. Effectively, the notes are Bb-Fb-Ab-Eb. I'd rather not give this chord a name, especially not in polite society, but I'd rather think of it as a continuation of a Db chord without the root but with a flat 3rd, 5th, 6th and 9th than a move to a Bb chord with a dim 5th, flat 7th and a 4th. It still sounds cool though!

We move on the second beat to Cb-Ab-Bb-Fb or Fb add 11 if I HAD to give it a name. The third beat is Bb dim that you had before. Perhaps I should mention the ones I agree with as well as those that raise suspicions.

The whole bar closes the bass progression from Bb to Eb in M24 and the melodic progression from Eb down to G.

23. I would want to see G natural before I suspected Ab minor and that doesn't appear before M34.

24/5 Fb Ab Cb = Fb major. D nat is a sharped sixth but is enharmonically Ebb thus Fb 7. E7/Fb doesn't sit right with me but you've fixed that now. I'm not sure what you had there before.

26-29. Yes, it's just an enharmonic change from Fb to E for notational convenience not a key change.

32 F#m/B reads uncomfortably as B isn't in F# min. B is the added 11th. Purely a notational awkwardness. The kind that makes me consider the appropriateness of this slash notation. Personally I'm not marking it in my scores as I can see from the music what the bass is and I'm not going to playing this like a fake book. For me F#m add 11 works better and I can see immediately that the 11th is in the bass. The /B makes me think there's a misprint somewhere.

Don't get hung up on this stuff, Jeff. Look how far you've come in a few scant months! Not just in writing out the chords names, and the fairly flawless ease with which your managing regular chords, but your thinking process too looking at minor key transitions (albeit erroneous in this particular instance) and the thinking behind dim. or rootless 7b9 debate you were pondering.

And how you can consider it all en route to the bank.
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#1992827 - 11/30/12 01:39 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1243
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Schubert, Op. 94/6, Allegretto
Perhaps I should mention the ones I agree with as well as those that raise suspicions.


Well, I do tend to over think things sometimes, so this might help. In this case, I was just getting sloppy.

"23. I would want to see G natural before I suspected Ab minor and that doesn't appear before M34."

I've changed now to Cb/Eb

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Don't get hung up on this stuff ...


Thanks, Richard. I quite enjoy it as you may have presumed by now. But, you are right that I need to move along from this section. I have been looking at it too long now and starting to make silly mistakes. Would you mind taking one last quick gander and correct me of anything so I can update for the flock?

I will continue with chords up to the trio. This may take a bit of more time now though. Having fun with it and want to get them noted at least this far.
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#1992842 - 11/30/12 02:06 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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On the proviso that M22 is being worked on that looks fine, Jeff.

List out the notes for each chord (where you're having difficulty) and give each note a number based on the possible roots. Then choose the one with the best selection of uneven numbers in the first octave. Try to be aware of enharmonics such as the D nat/Ebb in the Fb7 above. If it's still not plain sailing just list all the notes with the bass as the root and add a question mark!

Composers add notes, they may not be concerned about fake books, theory or naming conventions.
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#1993098 - 12/01/12 07:37 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
On the proviso that M22 is being worked on that looks fine, Jeff.


OK, any better with the final selection for M22 now? This is the best I could come up with (I tried to follow direction in your first note re; this set of chord analysis) and my list has reached the edit maximum.

22) Dbm6/Bb, Fb add 11, Bbdim

I'm off to London (Ontario - my home town) today for a Birthday party, and can not check in again until tomorrow, but would like to fix this section before moving along. These chords, work for me and I suppose the middle one could be noted as being over Cb and the Diminished over Db.

Question on notation: When we have a tie as in M21-M22 the notes in the tie often change (example M17-M18). In this case though Fb is in M21 and is tied to M22. The flat sign though is not denoted in M22 and would otherwise be natural now based on the key signature. I believe it stays flat and they would have written natural if they wanted it. I'm a bit confused as sometimes the notes in a tie change, so shouldn't they have written in the flat again? Or, they don't need to do this, because of the tie?

This would throw another wrench of course, into my chord selection if I have the notes wrong in M22. But, I believe you have already confirmed the correct notes for M22, and indeed Fb. Nevertheless, I am still a bit confused on how it is notated.


Edited by Greener (12/01/12 07:47 AM)
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#1993115 - 12/01/12 08:22 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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In a tie, the accidental persists from the first note to the second note of the tie, even if the tie crosses a bar line, unless something is explicitly written to cancel the accidental.
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#1993129 - 12/01/12 09:41 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2435
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I am loath to give a name to the first chord in M22 but if you're going to call it Db without a Db in the chord you might mention in parentheses that it's rootless. If it is Db the other notes are 3, 5, 7 and 13 (can't be 6th if 7th is present) so that makes it a rootless Db13.

The alternatives of Ab sus2 + 6 (1, 2, 5, 6), Bb 11b5 (1, 4, b5, 7) or Eb sus4 b9 (1, 4, 5, b9) are equally uncomfortable. I guess Fb 11 ((1, 3, 7, 11) is a feasible alternative.

I cannot disagree with the second two chords in that measure, of course, as I proposed them.

So we're both Londoners born half a world apart! Enjoy the birthday bash. smile

ETA: That's a minor 13th; Fb is b3! Db minor 13. But I think I'm preferring Fb 11 because of the next chord, Fb add 11.



Edited by zrtf90 (12/01/12 09:52 AM)
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#1993629 - 12/02/12 12:07 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
In a tie, the accidental persists from the first note to the second note of the tie, even if the tie crosses a bar line, unless something is explicitly written to cancel the accidental.


Thanks PS88. Perhaps this should have been obvious to me, but was not. So this Ties up a loose end.

Ok, here is the final list then as I am not able to further edit what was previously posted. Hope OK now.

-) Fb7
17) Fb7
18) Abm/Eb, Dbm7
19) Dbm7
20) Abm/Cb
21) Dbm6
22) Fb11/Bb, Fb add 11/Cb, Bbdim/Db
23) Cb/Eb
24) Eb, Fb7
25) Fb7
26) Abm/Eb, Dbm7
27) Dbm7
28) Abm/Cb, Fb/Cb
29) E/B
30) Emaj7/B
31) C#/B
32) F#m add 11, E/G#, B7/A
33) E

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

So we're both Londoners born half a world apart! Enjoy the birthday bash. smile


Yes indeed (Londoners - I was born their but raised in Lambeth Ontario and I know England has one of those too) and closer then it otherwise appear. All the GP's are from England and Whiffy was born in Erith between Woolwich and Dartford. Her Mom still resides in Whistable.

Party though was for Macie who was adopted from Wuhan China in 2004 (10 years old now, Yippee.) It's a long story ... my life is complex smile .
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#1993637 - 12/02/12 12:44 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Online   content
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Schubert, Op. 94/6, Allegretto

Chords look fine, Jeff.
_______________________

Better a complex life than a dull one. smile
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#1994052 - 12/03/12 09:58 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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I'm trying to learn (actually play) this thing as fast as I'm spewing out the chords. Seeing as it is not actually a key change at M29, but rather a convenience of notation, I must say it certainly isn't very convenient for me. It's only a few bars I wish they just stayed there. Oh well, I guess they wanted to challenge my reading comprehension.
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#1994057 - 12/03/12 10:14 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

I gave this piece a listen again, and I just cannot find any interest in it to listen to it, although there is technical interest as far as analyzing it. Do you (Greener, Richard, keystring) like this piece, and if so, why?
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#1994060 - 12/03/12 10:27 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

Yes, I do actually. I like the sound of the chord changes and they are also fun to play. Plus it is sad to me, and I like sad frown

Plus, it is giving me ideas of what to do with chords that I had never thought about. For example I love what he does with moving one note in right and left hand at M17-M18,M19-M20 M25-M26, M27-M28.

I don't think it will ever be a show piece, or one my audience will much enjoy listening to (with a few rare exceptions) but so far, I quite enjoy it for myself.

Also fine if you would prefer to move along though. I do not expect to learn these pieces as fast as we can analyze.


Edited by Greener (12/03/12 10:32 AM)
Edit Reason:
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#1994298 - 12/03/12 07:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Online   content
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2435
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I gave this piece a listen again, and I just cannot find any interest in it to listen to it, although there is technical interest as far as analyzing it. Do you (Greener, Richard, keystring) like this piece, and if so, why?

Chose it. Love it.

Remember the Chopin Prelude, Adele and the Tingle Factor?

Soft, gentle opening.
Melodic appoggiaturas.
Enharmonic changes (using non-diatonic harmony).
Sudden dynamic changes (e.g. M7, M10).
Sudden textural changes (e.g. single note melody in M20-23).
Sudden rhythmic change (e.g M65-69)
New or unprepared harmonies (e.g. M31).

It's just full of heart rending emotion and evokes passion.
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#1994331 - 12/03/12 08:23 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I gave this piece a listen again, and I just cannot find any interest in it to listen to it, although there is technical interest as far as analyzing it. Do you (Greener, Richard, keystring) like this piece, and if so, why?

Chose it. Love it.


Another observation now;

Working through the key change at M40. This is the stuff that really excites me about playing music. What can I say, it is a gorgeous key change and I feel it develop under my fingers as I start getting the notes/chords correct. Not sure how to put it, but it is the type of stuff that makes me keep practicing until I can really play it right.
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#1994535 - 12/04/12 08:50 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1243
Loc: Toronto
Schubert Op. 94 No. 6

34) A7b9/E
35) Am add 11/E, Emaj7, Am6+4/E
36) E
37) A#dim7/E, E
38) C#dim11/E, E, Am6/E
39) E
40) Fb (New key signature and new theme)
41) Fb, Fb7
42) Ebsus4
43) Eb
44) Db add 9/Eb
45) Eb7, E
46) Eb7/Ab
47) Fm/Ab
48) Fm/Ab
49) Ab, Ab6
50) Gm7b5
51) Gm7b5, Edim7/G
52) Eb/G
53) Eb7/G, Ab


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#1994542 - 12/04/12 09:22 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3183
Loc: Maine
Greener and Richard, thanks for talking about what you like about this piece. If we liken a piece to a story, here is the story I hear in it: "blah blah blah." Adele and the Tingle Factor is not producing anything for me in this one.

Oddly, when I hum the beginning to myself from what I remember (or do I mean recall wink ) of it from my own inept stabs at it, I like it better than I liked listening to the recording. And when I was working on analysing the harmony for the Trio, it seemed like a lovely melodic section, but when I listen to that part in the recording posted in this thread, it's back to "blah blah blah".
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