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#1971515 - 10/10/12 07:48 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: Larry Buck]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
There is a way to evaluate the dynamic capability of the Mason's sound board independently of the hammers that are on it.

I'm not worried about the dynamic range. Unless we're talking about the tonal palette here? Like I mentioned, this BB can be played very softly, or quite loudly, and everything in between. But what I hear as far as colours go, they don't change with the dynamics as much as I hear on other pianos. Dynamics by themselves is not an issue.

Originally Posted By: Buck

I am presuming you are discussing the new hammers with this piano?

Yes, changing hammers on the eight year old BB. Or at least trying to figure out the best way to expand the colour palette to that of other pianos.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1971671 - 10/11/12 04:39 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1804
Loc: Suffolk, England
Does anyone happen to know what effect, if any, the crown retention system has on the tonal characteristics of Mason & Hamlins?

Specifically does the tension it applies to the rim affect the reflection of higher partials and tones, compared to other pianos?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1971701 - 10/11/12 07:25 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: Withindale]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6173
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Does anyone happen to know what effect, if any, the crown retention system has on the tonal characteristics of Mason & Hamlins?

Specifically does the tension it applies to the rim affect the reflection of higher partials and tones, compared to other pianos?

That's an interesting question. But does it affect only the higher partials or is it just one of the factors which contribute to the overall voice of a Mason? Maybe Del would add some observations.

Here is the "hype" from the M&H website.

http://masonhamlin.com/crown-retention-system/
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1971717 - 10/11/12 08:20 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1804
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Does anyone happen to know what effect, if any, the crown retention system has on the tonal characteristics of Mason & Hamlins?

Specifically does the tension it applies to the rim affect the reflection of higher partials and tones, compared to other pianos?

That's an interesting question. But does it affect only the higher partials or is it just one of the factors which contribute to the overall voice of a Mason? Maybe Del would add some observations.

A few points underlying the question:

1. M&H appear to have a large dynamic range but not so large a tonal range.
2. The tonal range increases dramatically with Musician's earplugs.
3. Musician's earplugs attenuate higher frequencies more.
4. Our perception of loudness of a note depends on the sound of the initial attack.
5. M&H have reportedly recently addressed a problem of treble weakness.
6. The crown retention system is the main differentiator in M&H pianos.
7. Any rim effects might well have a greater impact on shorter wavelengths.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1971766 - 10/11/12 10:56 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: Withindale]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1253
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Withindale

1. M&H appear to have a large dynamic range but not so large a tonal range.
2. The tonal range increases dramatically with Musician's earplugs.
3. Musician's earplugs attenuate higher frequencies more.
4. Our perception of loudness of a note depends on the sound of the initial attack.
5. M&H have reportedly recently addressed a problem of treble weakness.
6. The crown retention system is the main differentiator in M&H pianos.
7. Any rim effects might well have a greater impact on shorter wavelengths.


(8) M&H also has a greater angle on the rim surface to which the soundboard is glued than many other makes.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1971799 - 10/11/12 12:33 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Does anyone happen to know what effect, if any, the crown retention system has on the tonal characteristics of Mason & Hamlins?

Specifically does the tension it applies to the rim affect the reflection of higher partials and tones, compared to other pianos?

That's an interesting question. But does it affect only the higher partials or is it just one of the factors which contribute to the overall voice of a Mason? Maybe Del would add some observations.

Here is the "hype" from the M&H website.

http://masonhamlin.com/crown-retention-system/


The M&H people build a very high quality piano at a reasonable price, but the crown retention system is essentially hype. As Del and a few others have pointed out, because the soundboard is glued to the rim above its centerline, as crown is lost, the edges of the soundboard panel actually pull inward, i.e., they don't spread out and push against the rim. Additionally, because the radius of the crowning is very large, there's not much movement of the outer edges of the soundboard as the crown changes anyway. The effective way to retain crown is to use a rib crowned rather than a compression crowned soundboard.

The tension resonator, although it is not a resonator in any sense of the word, does stiffen the structure of the piano, and therefore may well have an effect on the piano's tone and perhaps even sustain in certain parts of the scale.

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#1971801 - 10/11/12 12:36 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
It would not be the first time Del was mistaken.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1971818 - 10/11/12 01:14 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: BDB]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 401
Loc: new york city
Originally Posted By: BDB
It would not be the first time Del was mistaken.


And this isn't the first time you've taken
an anonymous potshot at Del Fandrich. Doing so is cowardly, not to mention mean-spirited and unnecessary.

I don't get it, but I'm glad the potshots don't deter one of the greats from continuing to contribute here.
_________________________
Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/

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#1971821 - 10/11/12 01:32 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: James Carney]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3300
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Originally Posted By: BDB
It would not be the first time Del was mistaken.


And this isn't the first time you've taken
an anonymous potshot at Del Fandrich. Doing so is cowardly, not to mention mean-spirited and unnecessary.

I don't get it, but I'm glad the potshots don't deter one of the greats from continuing to contribute here.


Building off this, I think someone who describes himself as a "Semipro tech" looks like an absolute moron when he criticizes such a prominent industry professional. And perhaps worse, he endangers the health of the forum by encouraging said industry professionals to stop posting, which has happened in the past. Younger techs, such as myself, need people like Del, Jim, Rod, etc. to teach us stuff, or at least serve as an inspiration for excellence; that tends to work best when old curmudgeons aren't wailing on them all the time.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1971889 - 10/11/12 03:27 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
I am anonymous because I do not wish to use this board for advertising. I am semi-professional because I make enough money from investing that I can do things for the good of the industry, rather than for profit.

If this statement: "As Del and a few others have pointed out, because the soundboard is glued to the rim above its centerline, as crown is lost, the edges of the soundboard panel actually pull inward, i.e., they don't spread out and push against the rim," is true, then there is no need for the soundboard to be crowned at all. The soundboard assembly of ribs and crown has negative curvature, so it is reverse crowned. (This is a simplification, of course. Those of you who are inclined towards mathematics or physics will see this, and will also note that the situation is much more complicated.)

I might also note that we have the evidence of our ears, when we compare a Steinway A-I with an old Mason & Hamlin AA, virtually identical pianos except for the rim bracing.

If you are still swayed by personalities, Gertz is on one side, Fandrich on the other. The physics has not changed in the intervening years.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1971918 - 10/11/12 04:35 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: BDB]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: BDB
It would not be the first time Del was mistaken.


I know that Ron Overs, by experiment, verified that as crown is lost the soundboard edges do move in. I wouldn't be surprised if Del did a similar experiment.

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#1971927 - 10/11/12 04:53 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2340
Loc: Olympia, WA
Having known Del for many years, I can attest that his skin is pretty thick. One of his favorite stories is that many years ago, after teaching a class at a national PTG convention, a prominent PTG member told him "Every industry needs it's lunatic fringe - and YOU'RE IT!". He always says it with a smile on his face.

Personally, I didn't think BDBs post was that inflammatory. Nobody has all the answers here. Mistakes and misinterpretations have been made and will continue to be made by all who participate in this crazy business. That's what keeps it so interesting!
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1971981 - 10/11/12 06:33 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1804
Loc: Suffolk, England
To answer the question about tonal range and the crown retention system, I'll go along with Marty and Roy's view that it contributes to M&H tone, for reasons such as the rim angle Keith mentioned.

So, why do earplugs clean up the sound, as Dan Silverwood put it, and allow Scep to hear the full tonal range of the piano? I suspect they must be cutting out a whole lot of high frequency tones in the attack that are drowning out the the upper partials of the notes being played, so that the ear does not hear them immediately.

The bridge and the soundboard generate these additional tones when they are excited by the strings. I think this is what Dan meant by a fixed tone instrument. You can change the vibrations in the strings by working on the hammers but your piano will then determine what sounds you hear.

I came across the following plots from an unnamed piano this evening in Research Report 8097, October 2012, by Juliette Chabassier, Antoine Chaigne and Patrick Joly. They show some of the upper partials (red circles) and piano tones (purple diamonds) from D1#, 38.8 Hz. You can see how the vibrations of the strings in (a) produce vibrations in the bridge (b) and the soundboard (c), resulting in the sound pressure waves we hear (d).

_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1971998 - 10/11/12 07:02 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Withindale
The bridge and the soundboard generate these additional tones when they are excited by the strings. I think this is what Dan meant by a fixed tone instrument. You can change the vibrations in the strings by working on the hammers but your piano will then determine what sounds you hear.


Very good. The technician can regulate what the human brain will hear by voicing out the unpleasant tones for the player or owner through the mallet that excites the wire to transmit the vibrations to the transmitter, the bridge.

Of course the goal is to rid the instrument of all unpleasant sounds. This is completed on a temporary basis by manipulating the hammer set and the amount of time it spends on the wire; the more soft the shoulder the more the hammer compresses and the longer it will linger on the wire.

This is often stated incorrectly as changing the tone. In truth it does change some of the tone; it gets rid of what you don’t want and brings out what you do want. The tone of the instrument basically remains the same; there is just more or less of some of the sounds emitted.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1972401 - 10/12/12 05:41 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: BDB]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2315
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: BDB

I might also note that we have the evidence of our ears, when we compare a Steinway A-I with an old Mason & Hamlin AA, virtually identical pianos except for the rim bracing.



I could not disagree more. The two pianos you mention are enormously different.

I will offer, You are not in the business of working with these designs if you do not see or feel the difference.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1972463 - 10/12/12 08:19 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
As I've mentioned several times on your other threads I have no problem playing softly on my five year old BB that sits in a smallish 12' by 18' room. I don't think what you say about the dynamics of the BB are correct. In fact, this wasn't a problem on any of the BB's I tried.

Well, this runs contrary to my experience. As well, every single person I've talked to that has sold these pianos, or currently sells them has confirmed that Masons are indeed louder than other pianos. I don't dispute that they can be played softly, but softly for a Mason is different than softly for an Estonia, wouldn't you agree?
Not at all. In a small room I can play as softly as I want to on the BB. I couldn't always do this(I would play ghost notes) until I adjusted my technique about 5 months ago.
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: PL

The posters on this thread who said that you should be trying to find a piano you like as it sounds in the showroom, rather than buying an expensive piano and hoping a change in hammers will give you the sound you want, are correct IMO.

They are not correct, but more prudent I'd say. My natural inclination is towards finding something I love in the showroom too, but this has been harder to do than you might think. Lots of Yamahas and lower end Kawais, and turn of the century used instruments, but not much in between around here. The rare Steinway that turns up is usually over 50K and is comparable to those sold at 30-35K in the States.

The only local piano that I almost love, save for the lowest bass notes (again!) is the Shigeru VI, but the price is now way out of my limit. At this point, even if I could afford it I'd hesitate because I sold my last Shigeru because of the same bass issue. There is no denying that the rest of the piano is superb though.
This all leads me back to the Mason. If the tech, who now cannot come tonight, but probably next week, gives the go ahead for the basic integrity of the instrument I may take the chance with it.
Over the course of many lengthy threads you've gotten so many different opinions about what the "problem" is and how to fix it, I'd think that alone would make you extremely hesitant. The only time I think someone should buy a piano whose tone they don't like with the hope some fix might work is if they are not at all particular about the sound of the piano. You seem to be very particular so I think the chance you're taking is very high.

The only way I think this would make sense is if you're getting such a good deal on the Mason that you could have a good chance of selling it with minimal loss. You seem to be hoping in all these threads to get some major confirmation that your attempt to adjust the Mason's tone will work to your liking, but as far as I can see you haven't gotten anything like that kind of response.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/12/12 08:27 PM)

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#1972467 - 10/12/12 08:33 PM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: Withindale]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19105
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The posters on this thread who said that you should be trying to find a piano you like ... are correct IMO.

This BB clearly is that piano.
But he's said many times on many threads that he doesn't like the piano as is. He's made it clear that he wouldn't be satisfied with the piano unless ome change in the tone could be accomplished.

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#1972569 - 10/13/12 01:13 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: Larry Buck]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20778
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Originally Posted By: BDB

I might also note that we have the evidence of our ears, when we compare a Steinway A-I with an old Mason & Hamlin AA, virtually identical pianos except for the rim bracing.



I could not disagree more. The two pianos you mention are enormously different.

I will offer, You are not in the business of working with these designs if you do not see or feel the difference.


Same size, 20 bass notes, 57 bass strings, some on the same auxiliary tenor bridge connected in exactly the same way. Too similar to be coincidence. The biggest difference is the tension resonator.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1972577 - 10/13/12 01:34 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: pianoloverus]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The posters on this thread who said that you should be trying to find a piano you like ... are correct IMO.

This BB clearly is that piano.
But he's said many times on many threads that he doesn't like the piano as is. He's made it clear that he wouldn't be satisfied with the piano unless ome change in the tone could be accomplished.


You're misquoting me. I said range of tonal colours, not tone. I like the tone. I wanted more range.

In any case, here's the update:

I bought the piano.

After listening to the recordings I'd made on three different occasions multiples of times, I've become more familiar with what this piano 'should' sound like. The tonal range, to my ears seems quite linear compared to other pianos, but not plain or restricted. At first, I thought that something was missing in the sound, but realized it simply was a different tone than I'm used to. I also realized that in comparing this BB to all other pianos I've auditioned is that every other piano was much brighter, and so they all had more presence in the recordings.

And frankly, I'm happy with the tone. Not because I have to be. I could have walked away from the deal. But, let me say, that I was really needing a tech to come look at this piano and give his opinion. So, that's indeed what happened tonight.

The tech I chose had tuned my Shigeru twice in the past, and has worked on a number of Masons in town. He's told me before that he doesn't really like Masons too much, and when I originally told him I sold my Shigeru to perhaps get a Mason he was quite surprised.
In any case, I wanted him to check out the Mason BB that I'd been asking about the hammers on, etc, etc.
He came, inspected everything--spending over two and a half hours with me, and he also played the piano to hear it, had me play it to hear it, and did some minor work on the keybed and other quick fixes. Long story short(er): he really liked the piano. He gave me a list of all the things wrong with it, but assured me they could all be fixed, with the exception of the fallboard that wouldn't close fully. He thought it may have warped over that last 6 years and was a bit worried why that would be so.
He also had no problem with me changing the hammers if I wanted to, and didn't bat an eye when I said I'd get them prehung.
It turns out that he had been a piano rebuilder for 7 years before he decided to tune for a living, and was confident that he could do many things to make this BB sound and feel even better than it does with regulation, hammer shaping and voicing.
All in all, the experience tonight was a very happy one. I thought that I may have found a piano that I'd have to compromise on, but in the end it has turned out even better than I'd expected.

Thank you so much to all the techs that have shared their experience and opinions on this thread. Although it is obvious that there is no consensus among you, it is clear that you are all dedicated professionals trying to help and guide in the best way you know how. Those who said I should address my questions to a local tech were right ( I never doubted that in any case), but the replies on this thread and the number of PM's I received from some individuals that believed that the Mason is a great piano, coupled with my tech who now likes Masons more, helped me with the final decision to purchase.

The end.

Now I just need to fit it in the elevator...
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1972616 - 10/13/12 04:56 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1804
Loc: Suffolk, England
Congratulations.

Please tell us, in due course, how the regulation and voicing go, and what the sonorities of the piano bring to your playing.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1972734 - 10/13/12 11:37 AM Re: Any warning about changing hammers? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2256
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Congrats! Look forward to hearing more of your recordings! smile

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