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#1961528 - 09/20/12 11:57 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
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Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Greener
Is there any more to discuss on this one? Or, is everyone still game to move along?

I'm game to move along. I'm just going to be playing major catchup on the thematic details stuff from what you've done so far, but no reason to wait up for me on that. I think that's just going to be a long teeth-gnashing project for me.

Shall we do Clementi Sonatina 3? I would like to do all 6 Clementi Sonatinas, for the practice.
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#1961530 - 09/20/12 12:02 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
...Richard, in addition to hearing the unity between the three movements of the Sonatina 2, do you hear these as being different from the Sonatina 1?

I was going to come to that. It's a composers style. Some people profess to be able to distinguish Haydn from Mozart. Others cannot. I'm still unsure. I heard a piece of unfamiliar piano music and couldn't tell if it was Mozart or Beethoven. I was totally flummoxed. I knew all of Beethoven's 32 so I figured it had to be one of Mozart's unfamilar sonatas which would have made it an early one and it just didn't sound early. It turned out to be Clementi. I've been a huge fan of his ever since.

There are some things, such as the four-notes figures we've just been looking at, that will come up again and again, but the way they are handled tends to be unique to the composer/period/style.

The famous Rachmaninov variation 18 on Paganini's caprice features the very four note figure we've just been discussing. I don't think either Paganini or Rachmaninov were inspired by this sonatina! smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg76YTPpgcs&feature=related
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#1961531 - 09/20/12 12:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Shall we do Clementi Sonatina 3? I would like to do all 6 Clementi Sonatinas, for the practice.

Here we go with the cross-posting!

Yes, let's do all six! smile
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#1961555 - 09/20/12 12:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Oh yes, those. I could never see the pictures.
laugh

Me neither but I will look again.

I was kind of liking the Rachmaninoff ...OK, here we go ...

Sonatinen No. 3 - Clementi

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#1961609 - 09/20/12 02:25 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Two main themes in Exposition M1 - M26:
1.) M1-M12 in C Major
2.) M13-m26 (G Major M13-M16, E Minor M18-M22, G Major M23-M26

Development M27 - M35 Starts in C Major and moves to E Minor at M32.

Recapitulation M36 - M64:
I believe we are starting in G Major this time, moving to E minor at M42 and then to C Major at M47 and for duration.
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#1961658 - 09/20/12 03:57 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Oh yes, those. I could never see the pictures.

I'll give this a try, though, looking for patterns and relationships.

One comment: as I looked at the last few posts, you all might as well be talking about Chinese as music. In other words, I would have to read the whole thread to comment!
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#1961672 - 09/20/12 04:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
Gary D. Offline
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Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Greener

Two main themes in Exposition M1 - M26:
1.) M1-M12 in C Major
2.) M13-m26 (G Major M13-M16, E Minor M18-M22, G Major M23-M26

Development M27 - M35 Starts in C Major and moves to E Minor at M32.

Recapitulation M36 - M64:
I believe we are starting in G Major this time, moving to E minor at M42 and then to C Major at M47 and for duration.


OH!!! M32 is C minor, but for exactly one measure. Whether you want to call that a key or a very temporary modulation is up to you. wink

I just figured out you are on the THIRD sonata.

M42-M46 are really rather cool, and I don't think you have it yet. I don't want to "crash the party", so I'll just see what you guys come up with. wink

Recapitulation M36 - M64:
I believe we are starting in G Major this time, moving to E minor at M42 and then to C Major at M47 and for duration.
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#1961680 - 09/20/12 04:24 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Thanks, Gary. Actually I was wondering about that. But I figured Eb and Gb was close enough to D# and F# for me. But, had a feeling there wasn't something right about this. Plus, the Ab in the next measure was kind of bothering me, but I dismissed it since it didn't show up any more ... thank goodness.
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#1961700 - 09/20/12 04:51 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Greener
Two main themes in Exposition M1 - M26:
1.) M1-M12 in C Major
2.) M13-m26 (G Major M13-M16, E Minor M18-M22, G Major M23-M26

Development M27 - M35 Starts in C Major and moves to E Minor at M32.

Recapitulation M36 - M64:
I believe we are starting in G Major this time, moving to E minor at M42 and then to C Major at M47 and for duration.

M1-12 = first subject in tonic C. Yes.
M13-26 = Second subject in G major. Yes.

E minor in M18-22?
What is happening in the bass/LH? (important for establishing key)
What is happening in RH? (not as important)

Development M27-35. Yes.
M27-30 come from M1-2
M31-32 come from M18-19 and uses Eb suggesting C minor but is simply passing colour.
M33-35 is to re-establish G major.

Why in the recap did he modify M7-12 for M42-48?

Why did he introduce M57-58?

Ah! I see Gary's already here! smile
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#1961718 - 09/20/12 05:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
[quote=Greener]Two main themes in Exposition M1 - M26:
1.) M1-M12 in C Major
2.) M13-m26 (G Major M13-M16, E Minor M18-M22, G Major M23-M26

Development M27 - M35 Starts in C Major and moves to E Minor at M32.

Recapitulation M36 - M64:
I believe we are starting in G Major this time, moving to E minor at M42 and then to C Major at M47 and for duration.

Richard, I'm being VERY careful because it looks like everything is going nicely and I do NOT want to crash the party! wink
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#1961721 - 09/20/12 05:55 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Your consideration, Gary, is very much appreciated, but so is your participation! smile

One of the benefits of it being a public forum is that everyone can input their own thoughts on the subject and we can also pick and choose what and how much to take away from it.

Your contributions so far have been invaluable.
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#1961723 - 09/20/12 05:58 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

E minor in M18-22?
What is happening in the bass/LH? (important for establishing key)
What is happening in RH? (not as important)


Guess we are still in G Major then. The D# was causing me grief and I felt I needed to deal with it. When I listen now though, it appears more like just colour and I needn't have got in such a fret about it.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Why in the recap did he modify M7-12 for M42-48?

Why did he introduce M57-58?


I will take a look at these next and see what I can suggest.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.

Richard, I'm being VERY careful because it looks like everything is going nicely and I do NOT want to crash the party! wink


Crash away, Gary. I'm not as delicate as I appear. I thought I was getting away with having just one measure wrong ... but NOPE
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#1961730 - 09/20/12 06:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Gary D. Offline
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One section, as I see it:

M41 C, because is non-harmonic.
M42 Dm, rootless A7, Dm, D7 (because we still hear the D in bass although there is a rest)
M43 Em, rootless B7, E E7
M44 Am, E7 (even thought there is no 3rd, by context) Am, rootless A7
M45 Dm, A7 (by context, missing root and and 3rd), Dm, A7, Dm, F#m7b5 (implied, missing A)

This is a real can of worms for my students, Richard. Some "chords" can simply be heard as contrary motion passing tones OR as chords, depending on POV.

I did not use slashes to show bass. And the concept or "rootless" chords is important to me, but often people will insist calling something like E G C#, technically a C#dim chord, as a VIIdim in some key rather than a rootless V7 in some key. smile
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#1961748 - 09/20/12 06:56 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
...the concept or "rootless" chords is important to me, but often people will insist calling something like E G C#, technically a C#dim chord, as a VIIdim in some key rather than a rootless V7 in some key...

Good point, Gary. I was also considering the ambiguity, too, of diads/sparse chords. It can be an easy way of changing direction fluidly and you can build expectation but add surprise without alerting the listener the way a dim7 chord might.

And thank you for keeping me alert! smile

Originally Posted By: Greener
Recapitulation M36 - M64:
I believe we are starting in G Major this time, moving to E minor at M42 and then to C Major at M47 and for duration.

Jeff, you might want to double check how and where the recap'n differs from the opening measures. You might try a measure by measure comparison.
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#1961755 - 09/20/12 07:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Why in the recap did he modify M7-12 for M42-48?

Why did he introduce M57-58?


Of course, I had everything that Gary said grin . Plus, I was also thinking that M42-M48 has been modified to instill more authority towards a climax at 45 (tension) and release at M46-M48. This is a very cool cool sounding passage.

For M57-M58: seems like a nice melodic adventure in breaking up the close. He is bringing back the idea from M52 to pull back a bit, before the final resolution.
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#1961765 - 09/20/12 07:41 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Jeff, you might want to double check how and where the recap'n differs from the opening measures. You might try a measure by measure comparison.


We are good up until m41. Then he plays around and expands on M10-M12 in M42-M48. Then, in sync again until M57-m58 where he brings back a bit of last idea.

I think everything is being used and accounted for, but modified.

Is this what you mean?
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#1961768 - 09/20/12 07:50 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
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Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
...the concept or "rootless" chords is important to me, but often people will insist calling something like E G C#, technically a C#dim chord, as a VIIdim in some key rather than a rootless V7 in some key...

Good point, Gary. I was also considering the ambiguity, too, of diads/sparse chords. It can be an easy way of changing direction fluidly and you can build expectation but add surprise without alerting the listener the way a dim7 chord might.

And thank you for keeping me alert! smile

I should mention that "analysis" is always 100% practical for me. I have a strong ear, so hearing what something is gives me no problems. I am a very strong reader, so I am able to start from scratch and learn things very quickly. I can play a lot of music with scores that other people could not. Where is my weakness?

Memory. So my DECADES of careful stress on structure, especially on chord structure, is all about creating a road-map for myself that allows me to play from memory with complete confidence. I use this much the way a gig player uses a lead sheet. It's sort of like memorizing the lead sheet, if that makes any sense.

But I apply this logic to ALL music, and that is also why I tend not to use RNs too often. So much of the music I am interested in goes far beyond convenient functional harmony.

Even here, in the section I mentioned, what Clementi is really doing involves solid principles. One moment he is solidly in the key of C, then suddenly he hits Dm, backs up to A7, and then moves forward to D7 to G, B7 to Em, E7 to Am, A7 to Dm, and finally when he lands on F#m7b5, it is the same thing as a rootless D9, just a fancy version of D7, to go to G. All circle of 5ths, or secondary dominance, and I would NOT want to write that out in RNs. For just a moment he starts hitting the sophistication and inventiveness of Mozart and Beethoven, and that's why it is so interesting.

Just to flesh this out, I don't much like Clementi and so have never taught this sonata. Without the score I would not even know the theme, but by looking at the score, without going near a piano, I can audiate perfectly, hearing every note. And I think that a really careful study of chords and harmony has greatly increased my ability to audiate clearly even though I was already able to do it when quite young.

Just letting you know where I am coming from. Analysis to me gives us many valid views of what happens, and whatever helps us hear or read or memorize faster, or interpret with more understanding, that is a good thing!
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#1961990 - 09/21/12 09:06 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Very interesting stuff but here's my take on it.

In the exposition he led us a merry dance from M5 which I fully expected to take us to the dominant for the second subject and he ends in M12 firmly established in C major still (I-V-I).

Now we're in the recapitulation. Everything's expected to be in tonic so the bridge passage that never was no longer needs to take us anywhere - and what does he do now? He leads us on another merry dance to finish on the dominant!

I don't get the circle of fifths motion going on. What I get is a sequence from M40 that looks like it's building up to go from A down to D but the RH in 42 changes to anticipate a drop from G to C but by the time LH reaches C in M44, RH is already leading us up the garden path to another heading that leaves me on G major, precisely where I expected to end up in the exposition, but not in G major, there's a definite feeling of hanging on the dominant here rather than being in it.

I have M43 as G, F aug 6, E, G6.

The D7 at the end of M42 makes me read M43 as starting on G not Em. This is the kind of ambiguity I referred to earlier. I want to call the second chord here an Italian sixth but we're not in A major though I want that E major following to be an A maj 7 without root or third. I don't get B7 at all. The G6/Em7 wants to be G7 but is making sure the following C is not a resolution. Muzio is still amusing us.

I agree with the rest of your chords, Gary but I didn't get as far as naming them in M45. That's just a sequence to G, for me.

46 and 47 are G, G7, C, G11 so without D/D7 I don't get resolution in 48 here but an imperfect cadence and suspense.

The little and subtle changes from the end of M53 to M59 are very clever. The E at the start of 57 is gorgeous. Apart from the added enjoyment I can't see why he chose to do this apart from coming down an octave.

Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Analysis to me gives us many valid views of what happens, and whatever helps us hear or read or memorize faster, or interpret with more understanding, that is a good thing!

I'm the same way. But for me harmonic analysis is only a part of the process and seldom the first thing. For me it begins with the melody or thematic material. Only when the harmony is interesting will I bother naming chords or look at what they're doing. Melody, rhythm, harmony, unity, tension/release, sequences, variations and those 'tingle' factors we looked at in the Chopin Prelude. I start with what jumps out at me the most and look at the others as I see fit.

M5-12 and M42-48 are the sorts of places where the harmony is worth looking at.
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#1962010 - 09/21/12 09:53 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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We've only just begun and I already feel massively behind. I played through movement 1 and I like it. It seems more complex than the previous sonatinas we've looked at. Listening to movements 2 and 3, they don't sound as complex. I don't mean movement 1 complex as in hard to play -- it actually felt easier than when I've previously tackled Clementi -- but the sound of it, the harmony, seemed more complex. I'm still reeling from the G A F# in m.25.
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#1962012 - 09/21/12 10:01 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Curious: I find much more of interest in movement 3 playing it than listening to it.
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#1962123 - 09/21/12 02:49 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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So I thought maybe I would pick up some actual printed editions of Clementi and Kuhlau sonatinas. I've read good things about the Schirmer Masterworks editions of these, edited by Jennifer Linn. So I zipped over to the music store, and they actually had the Kuhlau in stock! But I left empty-handed, because... I couldn't stand it. Big huge print that makes each movement take several pages, necessitating either copying or awkward page turns (I'm not planning to memorize these). Really almost no useful extra information beyond what I pretty much know already and care about. Ornament realizations written out above the staff, but I'm willing to trust my current knowledge of ornaments. There was a chart of particular skills that are exercised in particular in each movement, but nothing esoteric that I need to know, I think, that I won't find out just playing the piece. So, although I think these are good student editions, they just didn't interest me. Too bad, because I don't really like playing from imslp printouts: they droop. I wonder if the imslp edition we're using is available in print.
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#1962143 - 09/21/12 03:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Gary D. Offline
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I want to get this link back in, for ease of viewing:
https://www.box.com/s/uxe33inhcbbh2eco9cr0
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

I don't get the circle of fifths motion going on. What I get is a sequence from M40 that looks like it's building up to go from A down to D but the RH in 42 changes to anticipate a drop from G to C but by the time LH reaches C in M44, RH is already leading us up the garden path to another heading that leaves me on G major, precisely where I expected to end up in the exposition, but not in G major, there's a definite feeling of hanging on the dominant here rather than being in it.

My writing was sloppy. These guys all build suspense and interest by writing V-I, in some key, then jumping to another V in another key and again going V-I or V-Im.

Examples, M42 to M48: A7-Dm, D7-G, B7-E, E7-Am, A7-Dm, rootless D9-G, then toggle, G7-C, D7-G, G7-C, and so on. Now, E7 to A7 to D9 to G7 is circle of 5ths. The other V-I relationships can all be seen IN the circle of 5ths. It’s a mixture of two different “tricks”. The other is like this:

C7 F, D7 G, E7 Am, and so on. I don’t have a name for that. smile
Quote:

I have M43 as G, F aug 6, E, G6.

Problem – there is no Faug6 chord. I know what you are talking about. You could write F(#6) to show the augmented 6th spelling, but you are going to be in deep doo-doo when you hit an F7b5 spelled as an augmented 6th chord, which may be spelled this way in some keys: – F A B D#. If you are going by spelling, that would be #4 and #6. But your G6 chord is wrong. You forgot the G# is still there. That’s a 3rd inversion E7 chord.
Quote:

The D7 at the end of M42 makes me read M43 as starting on G not Em.

Definitely G. No question. That’s how I heard it, how I saw it, and I have NO idea why I wrote Em. I had a five minute break and wrote in a flash. Big mistake, Richard!
Quote:

I agree with the rest of your chords, Gary but I didn't get as far as naming them in M45. That's just a sequence to G, for me.

I would be happy with Dm for all but the last eighth note, but I hear a change from Dm to D “something” there.
Quote:

46 and 47 are G, G7, C, G11 so without D/D7 I don't get resolution in 48 here but an imperfect cadence and suspense.

G11 is wrong, Richard. That would be G B D F A C. Instead you have F#-C, clearly showing D7 by context, and it is over a G pedal. You have a pedal tone for two measures. So G G7 C D7 G ALL over pedal G. Writing the long way: G G7 C/G D7/G G.

For HEARING I pick up melody and bass first, which immediately gives me the chords. But I do all the other things you mentioned, looking for ANY kind of detail that gives me clues about how I want to play something. smile
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#1962197 - 09/21/12 05:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Gary D.]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
And the concept or "rootless" chords is important to me, but often people will insist calling something like E G C#, technically a C#dim chord, as a VIIdim in some key rather than a rootless V7 in some key. smile

Yes, indeed. smile

OK, I've followed through the harmonic analysis. Also I have looked at this thematically and I see the thematic germs and how they are repeated and dressed up. The germs I see are the descending arpeggio e.g. m.1 and the descending consecutive notes in pairs of eighth notes (or a quarter note to round it off) e.g. m.5. These are sometimes expanded, altered, or played ascending.
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#1962390 - 09/22/12 04:25 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Gary D. Offline
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4750
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
And the concept or "rootless" chords is important to me, but often people will insist calling something like E G C#, technically a C#dim chord, as a VIIdim in some key rather than a rootless V7 in some key. smile

Yes, indeed. smile

OK, I've followed through the harmonic analysis. Also I have looked at this thematically and I see the thematic germs and how they are repeated and dressed up. The germs I see are the descending arpeggio e.g. m.1 and the descending consecutive notes in pairs of eighth notes (or a quarter note to round it off) e.g. m.5. These are sometimes expanded, altered, or played ascending.

To me the most important concepts about "dominance" are these:

1) Any key has a V chord, and regardless of whether the key is major or minor, that V chord remains the same – such as G in the key of C major or C minor.

2) The best way to describe what composers do is to learn a V7b9 chord, in all keys, ASAP because it contains:

a) The V chord
b) The V7 chord
c) The VIIdim7 chord
d) The VIIdim chord (three notes)
e) What can be considered a “rootless” VIIdim7 chord, example being D F Ab, also a IIdim, in the key of C minor.

3) Once this is understood, it becomes immediately obvious that all the above chords in any key, expressed with letters or RNs, FUNCTION either as a V chord or in PLACE of a V chord.

4) It also becomes obvious that our VIIdim7 chord is often incomplete while still EXPESSING the full chord, and that happens with things like this: Bb Db E.

Yesterday one of my adult students was completely disoriented by Bb Db E, a Bbdim chord, with an F bass. The bass note was a pedal tone.

The key was F minor, and it kept resolving to Fm. But the solution here is that when you attempt to stack those notes, you get E ___ Bb Db. Obviously there is a hole. The logical missing note is G, and the moment you see that, you realize you have a VIIdim7 chord, Edim7 when stacked, with a note missing. A strong ear player will just know that the dim chord is going to Fm and will not need to see the music. But a student who is not as strong in hearing – yet – may still be able to see VISUALLY where the chord must go because of spelling. And that same student will say, it looks like any old dim chord, three notes, but the spelling tells me that it is more like the FOUR-note chord with a note missing – so the odds of it resolving to F or Fm are very very VERY high! wink
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#1962438 - 09/22/12 07:37 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
To me the most important concepts about "dominance" are these:...

Excellent post, Gary.

All of these chords employ the 7-8 leading note effect and/or the D-Ab tritone resolution as well as the 2-1 tail end of the 3-2-1 or stronger 5-4-3-2-1 sequence.

The tritone tends to happen unexpectedly and creates tension that has to be resolved but the 7-8 effect and the descent to tonic can be 'set-up' melodically, especially from the dominant, and anticipated. This drives music forwards.

This is what Clementi is doing from M5-12 and M40-48.

Thanks for correcting my chords, Gary. How careless of me! So this is a final cadence after all at 48. I guess my unsatisfied feeling is because we're in dominant rather than tonic.

It's great to have other eyes and ears. This is why joint analysis is so good. We can all walk away with a stronger and more correct idea of the piece of music in question and the musical language in general.
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Richard

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#1962476 - 09/22/12 09:38 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Bb Db E: because of how I learned dim and dim7 chords, as VII dim and VIIdim7 in a key, the way I process this for naming it is: I see the neighboring D and E letters. That suggests a type of 7 chord based on E. I visualize the keyboard and see three halfsteps from Db to E, hence a dim7 chord. I check out the notes of Edim7: E G Bb Db. Yup, that's what I have, with G missing. Then I would label it Edim7/Bb = Bbdim7. Because Edim7 makes it a stack of thirds, I would expect the next chord to be Fm or maybe F.

I would detect the F as a pedal because D E F are three consecutive letter, hence unlikely to be part of one chord name. I might get hung up for a while trying to make Db and F be the parts of the chord and E the odd man out.

This is for labeling the chord. Reading/playing, I don't process anything like this and would just see notes and have no expectations about what comes next. Sometime maybe I'll try to work on this but having expectations about what comes next, apart from just looking ahead, is so completely outside of my sight-reading that I don't even know how I'd practice it. Currently when I try to improve my sight-reading, I focus on two things: looking ahead more, and processing chords more as patterns rather than reading each note.

Not saying how I do any of this is necessarily the best model; just describing it as a picture of how I approach these things.
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Ebaug(maj7)

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#1962590 - 09/22/12 01:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4750
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Bb Db E: because of how I learned dim and dim7 chords, as VII dim and VIIdim7 in a key, the way I process this for naming it is: I see the neighboring D and E letters. That suggests a type of 7 chord based on E. I visualize the keyboard and see three halfsteps from Db to E, hence a dim7 chord. I check out the notes of Edim7: E G Bb Db. Yup, that's what I have, with G missing. Then I would label it Edim7/Bb = Bbdim7. Because Edim7 makes it a stack of thirds, I would expect the next chord to be Fm or maybe F.

And you would be exactly on track. I expect the notes to “slither”, this way:

E---F
Db-->C
Bb-->A or Ab

Notationally the letter movement is the clue. For the same reason, this would suggest something different:

E-->F#
C#-->D or D#
A#-->B

Doing it your way, you build the dim7 chord that is most logical, and that would be A#dim7, in this case truly stacked. But when you get three notes like that, you can stack it in both directions:

F# A# C# E G, which AGAIN leads to a 7b9 chord – F#7b9.
Quote:

I would detect the F as a pedal because D E F are three consecutive letter, hence unlikely to be part of one chord name. I might get hung up for a while trying to make Db and F be the parts of the chord and E the odd man out.

In this particular case the music is divided between the hands this way, LH//RH:

F Bb Db//Bb Db E

You’ll find it here, last page, last line:

http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/...__Moscheles.pdf

My student was totally thrown because she saw that the LH clearly has a Bbm chord, and she assumed that THIS was the key clue. In fact, the top two notes, Bb and Db are part of the dim chord, and the F is the pedal. This is NOT obvious to students!!!
Quote:

This is for labeling the chord. Reading/playing, I don't process anything like this and would just see notes and have no expectations about what comes next. Sometime maybe I'll try to work on this but having expectations about what comes next, apart from just looking ahead, is so completely outside of my sight-reading that I don't even know how I'd practice it. Currently when I try to improve my sight-reading, I focus on two things: looking ahead more, and processing chords more as patterns rather than reading each note.

Here is what will happen. As you play the dim chord, gradually (over time) you will have a feeling of “not complete”. It is very rare in tonal music to end on a dim chord, and the music will indicate that something unusual is going on, such as here:

Liszt

You can probably find this on YouTube. When it ends you should have a feeling of being up in the air. So the first step is a feeling of “this needs to go SOMEWHERE ELSE”, a feeling of suspense. Knowing exactly where such a chord should go to, without seeing notation, is really quite advanced, I think.
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#1962598 - 09/22/12 01:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Looking at it in context, I would have been thrown by that F Bb Db E too, and probably come up with an extremely unsatisfactory IVm with a non-chordal leading tone. Ick. Nice example; hopefully I will remember this in my bag of tricks when I next meet something like it.

I'll hunt for the Liszt on YouTube.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#1963133 - 09/23/12 12:41 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Online   content

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1168
Loc: Toronto
Shall we look at movement two?

Walking pace now in G Major

I am thinking we have an antecedent happening M1-M6, a consequent at M7-M8, a middle at M9-M12 and a reprise beginning at M13.

I get some similarity in the antecedent to m13 (possibly m14) from the first movement. But, that is about all.


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#1963206 - 09/23/12 03:03 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
The best I can make out here is a rhythmic alteration of our familiar four note figure.

I see m1-2 as antecedent and M3-4 as consequent, etc.

Binary form.

Not much else to add.

So, movement 3?
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Richard

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