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#1963238 - 09/23/12 03:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
The best I can make out here is a rhythmic alteration of our familiar four note figure.

I see m1-2 as antecedent and M3-4 as consequent, etc.

Binary form.

Not much else to add.

So, movement 3?



Sure, but gotta run now. So, back tomorrow.

I was thinking m1-2 as antecedent ... and m3-4 as consequent. But thought for sure you weren't gonna like it ...

Next time I'll just go with what I really think and face the music.
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#1963249 - 09/23/12 04:08 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
LadyChen Offline
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Oooo can I play too? I just started analysis lessons this month.

I'm not familiar with antecedent and consequent. Does it have to do with cadences? Like, a question phrase and an answer phrase?

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#1963287 - 09/23/12 05:33 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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You're very welcome to join in, LadyChen.

Antecedence/consequence is not really to do with cadences but yes, it's very much like question and answer. It's about balance in the phrasing, the first two measures are balanced by the the next two and so on.

Don't let the jargon bother you and don't hesitate to ask questions.

We're about to move on to the third movement of Clementi's third sonatina but past material is always still current if there's anything we've covered that you need clarifying or want to ask more questions about.
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#1963305 - 09/23/12 06:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Antecedence/consequence is not really to do with cadences but yes, it's very much like question and answer. It's about balance in the phrasing, the first two measures are balanced by the the next two and so on.

Don't let the jargon bother you and don't hesitate to ask questions.

I've seen the term used numerous times too. I am afraid that any jargon that I'm not familiar with bothers me too, because anyone who doesn't know what the terms mean is then left out of the discussion.

I think that what you're talking about is a classical and simple structure which in its simplest level happens over 8 measures in two groups of four.

Measure 1 & measure 2 will build a phrase that (in simple form) will ** often **(1) end with an imperfect cadence such as I-V, IV-V etc., and the final melody note tends not to end on the tonic. You have the feeling of incompletion: hence the "question" part of "question-answer". Measures 3&4 will be similar to the first two, so you feel a relationship, and it typically ends in a perfect cadence of V-I.

Measures 5-8 will have the same 2+2 structure and it feels related to the first. So it's like [(call-answer)(call-answer)] where the 8 together have the feeling of a unit. The whole thing tends to be called a phrase. This whole grouping is called a period. The first "call-answer" is the antecedent, and the second "call-answer" is the consequent. I'm thinking that the general idea of a unit that we can hear and feel might be a good start. Maybe sticking with "phrase groups" is a good start with anyone unfamiliar with the other terms. (I studied phrase groups. I know what ant. & cons. are, but haven't worked with them as such).

(1) I have added the word "often" because while that's how it was presented in my theory, in real music it's not a steady pattern. The sample that I found afterward does not have this, but it does have the imperfect (ending in V) cadence at the end of the first phrase group ("antecedent")



Edited by keystring (09/24/12 03:47 AM)
Edit Reason: See footnote

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#1963306 - 09/23/12 06:25 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Even "question and answer" is jargon -- or at least terms someone might not understand what it means musically -- as illustrated by the fact that you've just felt that it would be useful to explain it.

In your explanation you used another term "imperfect cadence" and suggested that I-V and IV-V are examples of imperfect cadence. But that doesn't define "imperfect cadence", so even as you speak against technical terms, you are using them. Either we have to try to remember to explain every single term we use, which I think is unwieldy, or we have to trust that people will be willing to ask questions when they don't know something.

I don't think it's possible to make any thread a jargon-free zone, because what's obvious natural language to one person is going to be jargon to another person who doesn't know the definition yet, or even if they do know the definition, they may not have the experience to work with that concept as quickly and broadly as others do with more experience.
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#1963309 - 09/23/12 06:42 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
LadyChen Offline
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Let's feel free to use any 'jargon' that we are comfortable with, and to ask questions if we don't understand the jargon someone else is using. smile

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#1963328 - 09/23/12 07:40 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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I've transcribed an illustration in a textbook that was passed on to me that explains "antecedent" and "consequent". The markings are my own. Measures 1 & 2, then 3 & 4 are little mini-units by themselves (name?), and together they form one phrase, or phrase group. The ending hangs in the air so it has this complete / not-complete feeling like a question has. Measures 5 - 8 (each time starting at the pickup) has a parallel structure. The ending definitely sounds complete. Fwiw, the whole thing is called a "period".

Some explanations from the text:
- The period consists of a grouping of phrases which ends with an impression of closure. I'm seeing it as a paragraph that introduces, explains, and then concludes an idea. The phrases would be like sentences in that paragraph.
- The book uses the word "interact" which is cool, because all the things going on in the music work together to give an overall impression.

This is the start of "The Wild Rider" from Schumann's Album for the Young, Op. 58, No. 8

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#1963385 - 09/23/12 09:59 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
LadyChen Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Measures 1 & 2, then 3 & 4 are little mini-units by themselves (name?),


Sub-phrases.

It may be an over-generalization, but I'm thinking that antecedent phrases end with an open cadence and consequent phrases end with a closed cadence.

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#1963391 - 09/23/12 10:17 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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OK, I tried googling (and wikipedia immediately gave me far more than I have ever been able to absorb about cadences), but I can't find "open cadence". What do you mean by closed cadence and open cadence? What do you mean by cadence?
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#1963405 - 09/23/12 10:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
LadyChen Offline
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Wikipedia actually gives a decent definition of a cadence:

Quote:
In Western musical theory, a cadence (Latin cadentia, "a falling") is, "a melodic or harmonic configuration that creates a sense of repose or resolution [finality or pause]."[1] A harmonic cadence is a progression of (at least) two chords that concludes a phrase, section, or piece of music.[2] A rhythmic cadence is a characteristic rhythmic pattern indicating the end of a phrase.[3] Cadences give phrases a distinctive ending that can, for example, indicate to the listener whether the piece is to be continued or concluded. An analogy may be made with punctuation,[4] with some weaker cadences acting as commas that indicate a pause or momentary rest, while a stronger cadence acts as a period that signals the end of the phrase or sentence. A cadence is labeled more or less "weak" or "strong" depending on the sense of finality it creates. While cadences are usually classified by specific chord or melodic progressions, the use of such progressions does not necessarily constitute a cadence—there must be a sense of closure, as at the end of a phrase. Harmonic rhythm plays an important part in determining where a cadence occurs.


A closed cadence sounds complete -- V-I is an example. It closes on the tonic, giving it a sound of completion or closure. An open cadence doesn't end on the tonic. Keystring gave the examples of IV-V or I-V above. In those examples, the dominant (V) chord leaves the phrase sounding incomplete, like something must follow it. This is why these phrases are sometimes called Question phrases, and the phrase that follows often has a closed cadence, making it an Answer phrase.

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#1963411 - 09/23/12 10:57 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Thanks, Lady Chen.

Is V-I or V7-I the only example of a closed cadence? Can other pairs or sequences of chords sound complete? (I just remembered plagal: IV-I. Is that also a closed cadence?) Does a closed cadence have to end on I?

Is ending on V the only open cadence, or can you end on any chord (other than I) and still have an open cadence?
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#1963421 - 09/23/12 11:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
LadyChen Offline
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In traditional (western) harmony, a closed cadence ends on I (so yes, a plagal would be a closed cadence), and an open cadence ends on V.

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#1963431 - 09/23/12 11:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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OK, thank you. Whenever I have tried to learn about cadences, there's always way more information than I can absorb -- and of course I try to absorb it all -- so it's nice to get this as a little package of information I can remember and look for: closed I, open V.
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#1963507 - 09/24/12 03:58 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Even "question and answer" is jargon -- or at least terms someone might not understand what it means musically -- as illustrated by the fact that you've just felt that it would be useful to explain it.

In your explanation you used another term "imperfect cadence" and suggested that I-V and IV-V are examples of imperfect cadence. But that doesn't define "imperfect cadence", so even as you speak against technical terms, you are using them.

I wrote my feelings about jargon, rather than speaking out against them, and I immediately went to explaining the terminology, and then wrote another post with a concrete example.
Quote:

Either we have to try to remember to explain every single term we use, which I think is unwieldy, ...

If this series of threads is a general exploration on a topic in the way that forum threads usually are, then possibly yes. But my understanding is that this thread was set up for the purpose of teaching. When I teach, I do set up the concepts and terms behind the concepts. I don't know if it is unwieldy. I tend to think it is necessary. It is very possible that Richard did explain "antecedent / consequent" at some point, and that it's buried. It seemed like a good idea to get a definition out there, so I did. smile

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#1963512 - 09/24/12 04:08 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Adding to Lady Chen's explanation, which is the same as what I understand, there is a broader overall concept of cadence as being where the music pauses or ends. The cadence is also indicated by a change in rhythm and other clues that make us feel the pause or ending.

Perfect cadences, as LC said, indicate a completion, which is why they end on I. When the music finishes, it logically ends on the tonic and the tonic chord. At the very end of the piece, your final note in the melody will also tend to be the tonic note. In the middle, you may have a V-I, but in C major, your melody note might be E (3), which makes you feel the music wants to still go on.

Imperfect cadences are the pause, and they tend to end on V. You can have I-V, IV-V and also some other combinations, but these are the most common.

There is another interesting cadence called "deceptive", which is the V-vi. It is "deceptive" because you have the feeling that it has ended, but it hasn't. There is a reason for this. Consider this in the key of C major. I is CEG. vi is ACE. They both share the notes CE. You can have the soprano note land on C so your mind says "Ah, it's finished!". You hear the E with it, and you still have this feeling of a I-chord. But the final chord is minor, which is not the sound of the I chord, and the bass has not leaped a solid fifth or fourth from G to C (down or up). Instead it climbs a measly whole step from G to A, which negates that impression of finality.

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#1963515 - 09/24/12 04:12 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: LadyChen]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: LadyChen
Originally Posted By: keystring
Measures 1 & 2, then 3 & 4 are little mini-units by themselves (name?),

Sub-phrases.

It may be an over-generalization, but I'm thinking that antecedent phrases end with an open cadence and consequent phrases end with a closed cadence.

I'm glad to know what they call it in your neck of the woods. When it comes to the sub-phrase, different sources give different names, with a couple of them saying "We don't really have a name for this that everyone can agree on, so let's call it (some name)." As a result, I've ended up with this "nameless two-measure thingy" which is less than satisfying. whistle I like "sub-phrase.

Quote:
It may be an over-generalization, but I'm thinking that antecedent phrases end with an open cadence and consequent phrases end with a closed cadence

That's what I see too. It makes sense.

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#1963644 - 09/24/12 11:53 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

What to expect?

The final movement is likely to be fast but not as intellectually engaging as a sonata form movement. The middle movement should present a gentler contrast usually with a change of key but don't expect much modulation.

.
.

There shouldn't be any exposition, development and recapitulation in the sense of a sonata form movement but you are likely to see a simple ABA form where the middle will be a contrast to the beginning and end. In Haydn's sonata the double bar in the menuet signalled a binary form movement rather than sonata form.

For the sonatina to have unity there should be an overlap of material but it's more likely in the outer movements.

But I'm not Clementi. smile

There may be nothing more than that he felt the movements went well together or that he composed them on the same day or after listening to the same jingle on his local radio station. smile


Movement 3: Allegro, C Major

A - M1 - M16

All the content here is based on exposition from first movement.

B - M17 - M42

Some of the content here is founded from the development of movement 1 (M31-M42.)
Move to G Major at M23

A - M43 - 60 C Major

A - M61 - END C Major

This is how I hear it, but not sure if it makes sense. Perhaps just A B A.
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#1963652 - 09/24/12 12:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Perfect cadences, as LC said, indicate a completion, which is why they end on I.
[...]
Imperfect cadences are the pause, and they tend to end on V. You can have I-V, IV-V and also some other combinations, but these are the most common.
[...]
There is another interesting cadence called "deceptive", which is the V-vi. It is "deceptive" because you have the feeling that it has ended, but it hasn't.

Is "perfect cadence" the same as "closed cadence"? Is "imperfect cadence" the same as "open cadence"?

Is "deceptive cadence" only V-vi? Or is it more generally V-<anything but I>?
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#1963658 - 09/24/12 12:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I haven't defined antecedence and consequence. I have always used them in their English sense rather than in a specifically musical definition - I hadn't realised the terms had been so precisely defined other than that THE antecedent was the subject of a canon. I think I may stop using the terms and find some other non-musically specific phraseology like 'balancing half' or some such.

Cadences as I understand them are:
a final cadence ends on tonic: V-I perfect; IV-I plagal
an imperfect cadence ends on dominant (usually from I, II or IV)
an interrupted cadence moves from dominant to something other than tonic, usually VI.

From this I would understand a closed cadence (?-I) and an open cadence (?-V).

This doesn't concur with Wiki which made it look like rocket science and calls an imperfect cadence a half-cadence. I'm not at all sure what it defines an imperfect cadence as.

I may stop using these terms as well and again find a simple English phraseology such as inconclusive or unfinished. I'd rather call it a V-VI or a I-V cadence and let the ear give it a definition.

The more I learn, the more I realise how little I know...and how much less I care. smile
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#1963662 - 09/24/12 12:28 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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In my readings about cadence over the years, the only thing I have concluded is there's an awful lot of terminology, not everyone agrees on the terms, and different people use the same terms for different things. I don't mind using the different cadence terms in this thread, but they'll need clarifying so we can all understand each other.
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#1963664 - 09/24/12 12:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

Is "perfect cadence" the same as "closed cadence"? Is "imperfect cadence" the same as "open cadence"?


"Closed" implies finality - the music or the section is completely finished. If you have V-I as cadence, then your last chord is the tonic chord and that would suggest that the music is finished. You'll notice however when you're singing, that the main melody (usually soprano part) will also end on the tonic note. I.e. if the music is in C major, you will probably end on C in the melody at the end of a song.

In a V-I cadence, the melody might also end on E or G. This does not have a totally complete feeling. Often the music goes on. For example, this could happen in an ABA (ternary) music where it's going to modulate to the dominant and keep going, or where the music is changing direction otherwise. The composer lets you feel that this section of music is done, but the music itself is not done. In this case the cadence is referred to as semi-closed.

So to answer the first part of the question: the V-I cadence is closed or semi-closed. There are other names to this such as "authentic perfect" - the main idea is that a cadence can have an absolute finality to it because the melody ends on the tonic note, and the chord is the I chord; or it can have a more ambiguous finality.

The I-V, IV-V etc. cadences, i.e. cadences ending on V, cannot be closed cadences since the very nature of the V precludes the idea of finality.

Quote:

Is "deceptive cadence" only V-vi? Or is it more generally V-<anything but I>?

Afaik, it's only V-vi. The vi chord is so close to I since it shares two of the notes, that it creates the temporary illusion of "finishing", and then doesn't. I think a V-vi would also allow us to slip into the relative minor rather suddenly for a modulation.


Edited by keystring (09/24/12 12:37 PM)

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#1963684 - 09/24/12 01:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Movement 3: Allegro, C Major

A - M1 - M16

All the content here is based on exposition from first movement.

B - M17 - M42

Some of the content here is founded from the development of movement 1 (M31-M42.)

Move to G Major at M23

A - M43 - 60 C Major

A - M61 - END C Major

This is how I hear it, but not sure if it makes sense. Perhaps just A B A.

Good work, Jeff, but if M17-42 id B then M60 on should be, too.

So, more ABAB.

There are distinct similarities between M1-4 of the Allegro with M1-4 of the Spiritoso esp. the opening notes and the three note finish.

The B is also closely aligned rhythmically with the Allegro's second subject.
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#1963746 - 09/24/12 02:52 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Gary D. Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

Is "perfect cadence" the same as "closed cadence"? Is "imperfect cadence" the same as "open cadence"?


"Closed" implies finality - the music or the section is completely finished. If you have V-I as cadence, then your last chord is the tonic chord and that would suggest that the music is finished. You'll notice however when you're singing, that the main melody (usually soprano part) will also end on the tonic note. I.e. if the music is in C major, you will probably end on C in the melody at the end of a song.

In a V-I cadence, the melody might also end on E or G. This does not have a totally complete feeling. Often the music goes on. For example, this could happen in an ABA (ternary) music where it's going to modulate to the dominant and keep going, or where the music is changing direction otherwise. The composer lets you feel that this section of music is done, but the music itself is not done. In this case the cadence is referred to as semi-closed.

So to answer the first part of the question: the V-I cadence is closed or semi-closed. There are other names to this such as "authentic perfect" - the main idea is that a cadence can have an absolute finality to it because the melody ends on the tonic note, and the chord is the I chord; or it can have a more ambiguous finality.

The I-V, IV-V etc. cadences, i.e. cadences ending on V, cannot be closed cadences since the very nature of the V precludes the idea of finality.

Quote:

Is "deceptive cadence" only V-vi? Or is it more generally V-<anything but I>?

Afaik, it's only V-vi. The vi chord is so close to I since it shares two of the notes, that it creates the temporary illusion of "finishing", and then doesn't. I think a V-vi would also allow us to slip into the relative minor rather suddenly for a modulation.

Another view, completely skipping these terms which I can never remember to save my life.

Any move that sounds like IV to I sounds more gentle to me, and since C to G in the key of C, I to V, has the same sound as IV to I in the key of G, where C becomes the IV chord, it has a “backwards around the circle of 5ths sound”. By backwards, I mean that music naturally wants to go counter-clockwise, C to G to D, etc.

So in the key of C, D to G is much stronger, often D7 to G, also called V or V7 of V.

So the first principle to me is about what is strongest. Now, for obvious reasons, you can also go I V I or C G C, so in the end the only thing of importance to me is what the final chord is in a key section. If it is not I, it is not final. Things are up in the air.

Very soon there are more names than I can track, so you can take all of this with a HUGE does of salt.

Deceptive cadence is another term that drives me buggy. It is used formally for a V to vi move, but logically to me ANY chord that V goes to that is not I is deceptive.

I think you have to decide which of these terms you need to communicate with other people. I find myself using them now and then simply because I am talking to people who know them can can’t follow me unless I use them!
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#1963748 - 09/24/12 02:57 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline
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Yes, of course ... ABAB

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

There are distinct similarities between M1-4 of the Allegro with M1-4 of the Spiritoso esp. the opening notes and the three note finish.


Agree. They look quite different on paper, but sound like you could almost hum one on top of the other.

Anything, else you want me to look for on this one. Or, should we start prepping for no 4?
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#1963750 - 09/24/12 03:02 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I'd start on number 4, Jeff.

If this is too fast for anyone following, please remember that previous pieces and questions or discussions pertaining to them are still current and welcome.
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#1963764 - 09/24/12 03:35 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline
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#1963874 - 09/24/12 06:36 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline
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Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Just realized the numbering is all messed up on first page. I will fix and update link in short order. If following this from the numbered score, please recount measures up to M22. Sorry bout that ...

Meanwhile, having a bit of a struggle just with the keys in this movement, so will start mainly with that.

Exposition; M1-30
M1-M12 F Major
M13-M30 C Major

Development; M31-M47
Start in F Major, moving to D Minor M34-M37
then not sure about M38-M47. I do not think we are still in D Minor (G Minor, to C Major and back to F major?)

Recapitulation; M48-M71
Start in F Major, moving to G Minor M52-M55 to F Major M56 to M71
_________________________
“Inspiration is a guest that does not willingly visit the lazy.”
--Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky

            

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#1963922 - 09/24/12 08:23 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2230
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
You're getting very good at this, Jeff.

M38-47 are without cadence so you can make a call on the key. The thing to do if the key is unclear is to look at what chords are being used. This might give a better idea of what's going on.
_________________________
Richard

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#1963977 - 09/24/12 11:02 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1071
Loc: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

The thing to do if the key is unclear is to look at what chords are being used. This might give a better idea of what's going on.


Right. Forgot about the chords. Haven't really looked at chords much since the Moonlight. Will get on this in the AM.

side note: you were right about the small sectioning and perfecting on the Bach piece. What a difference it is making in getting this in much better shape faster. Trouble spot is going to be M33-M40 (I can see it coming) and will take some extra time with this.

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#1963991 - 09/24/12 11:54 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11177
Loc: Canada
I'm looking at the Development, and mm. 38 - 47 within that part. Like Jeff says, it moves into the key of Dm briefly. Eventually it wants to go back to F major for the recapitulation. So mm. 38 - 47 are the transition to bring us back from Dm to F major.

m. 38 I hear it becoming D7 at the end. I can hear beats 1 & 2 as F#o7-b9. The b9 (Eb) resolves to become D. A diminished chord often suggests an invisible root that would make it a V of something, and the F#o part could be the top half of D7. Another way of looking at it is that a fully diminished 7 often wants to move to the chord that is a half step above, cadence-like. Here: F# to G. In fact, the next chord becomes a Gm. So the whole thing from m. 38 - 39 suggests D7 to Gm, or F#dim7 => D7 => Gm.

In m. 39 the C and A are dancing around the Bb which appears at the end. So I see this as becoming Gm.

mm. 40 & 41 do the same thing as the previous two measures: Eo7-b9 becoming C7, resolving to F. Again, the Bb and G dance around the A before it appears in m. 40.

Measure 42 is a very emphatic G7. We can expect that C major or C minor will probably be there next, and of course C is the dominant of F, which in sonata form is the key we know we have to have for the recapitulation.

Mm. 43 & 44, the whole thing centers around C (major chord) but the other notes make me feel hints of F or Dm, like it's teasing us about where it's going to go. I wasn't sure what to call beats 2 and 3. Dm/C? Csus42 that's missing the G we'd need?

Measure 45 is a very solid C7 and then we're home free to get back to F major in the Recapitulation.

So it's like there are V-I movements there (I don't know if they would be called cadences, though), but they are subtle. I see a general movement starting at 38 of D7 => Gm => D => F, then G7 = C and C7 bringing us back to the key of F major.

I remember reading that sonata form often has a section which is a transition into new keys, which can be relatively lengthy.

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