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Not sure I am totally getting what you are meaning in the first phrase here.
My first phrase that you quoted, "The first verse is four lines..." or Clementi's first phrase?
My first phrase: I see this like a sung verse. Line 1 = M1-4, line 2 = M5-8, line 3 = M9-12 (or two short lines?) and line 4 = M13-16. The end of lines 3 and 4 are modified in the second verse for leading into the B section.
Sidebar: If this were sonata form the end of the first 'verse' would lead into the second subject in D major. If I were composing this I would change M16 from A-B-D-C-B-A to A-B-A-G-F#-E and lead instead to D major probably with a reverse/inverse of M13-14 leading up to the inverse of M41-48.
Clementi's first phrase: This would be so much easier on a piano but...
Look at the first movement and consider the bars now in 3/8 time and drop the last quaver in each bar (including the upbeat before M1). M1 is now D (1/4 note) B (1/8 note) M2 is now G (dotted 1/4) M3 is now D-D-D (1/8 notes) M4 is now B (dotted 1/4)
D---B, G, D-D-D, B; D---B, G, D-D-D, A;
Or play it like the Allegro:
D-D-D, B-G-D, D-D-D, B
Or with the four-note figure: D-D-D, B-G-D, D-GABG-A ______________________
For the second movement replace the paired notes with crotchets: E-C-G, E-C-G, E-A-D, B-C.
Or add the figure: E-C-G, E-C-G, E-A-DCBD-C
Or try the figure inverted: E-C-G, E-C-G, E-A-BCDB-C _______________________
Now play the final Allegro M1-4 and replace the four-note figure with a single G (1/8th note): G-G-G, A-D-C, B---G, A
Now play it like the second movement as above: G-D-B, G-D-B, G-D-B, G-A.
It took me awhile (was not from a lack of trying) to get this. But, yes I believe I get in now. At first I felt more commonality with these measures to the first movement. My trouble I think, was interpreting and applying everything correctly. Yes, sorry I am a little slow. After re-reading and also previous quote below (to make sure I was on correct movement/measures) I believe I've got it ... I think I've got it ... "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain"
Originally Posted by zrtf90
The first two lines remind me so much of the second movement. Play the first note of each pair in M1-4 of the Allegretto and then the first 8 measures here. Also the rhythm in M41-48 recalls the skipping feel.
Richard, I don't get what you're getting at in your last post. It seems like there are only so many ways to put together notes if you're going to deedle about on basically the notes of a chord, so some similarities are going to happen just because there aren't very many combinatorial possibilities. Even so, I don't even see the similarity between the different sequences of notes you're highlighting.
There's more, of course, that I hear but it's so hard when I can't just sit at the piano and play it for you.
These movements belong very much together but it's very difficult to point out the unifying features when you have to massage the notes so much to explain it.
The thing to take away from this is that there's a lot of unity in the work. The three movements belong together. You might have to sit down with some of the elements and work on the first note of each bar, the notes on the beat or some such alteration to hear the main linking ideas and play around with them, improvising and such. You may pick up what the composer didn't intend but it all helps to present the piece in your own interpretation.
Sometimes I feel More familiar with a work when I've tried to re-compose it on my own or in my own way. It also helps me understand what the composer has gone through and mostly see what he probably came up with and rejected. Typically my ideas will be the ones the composer left on the cutting room floor, but still it helps me see.
[...]when you have to massage the notes so much to explain it.
Sounds like Rorschach ink blots to me. I will look/listen closer, though.
You know what this means? It means I'm going to have to go back to the discussions of Clementi 1 and the Haydn and see if I can understand how to find this thematic unity there also, to get practice in this. Rats.
Richard, I don't get what you're getting at in your last post. It seems like there are only so many ways to put together notes if you're going to deedle about on basically the notes of a chord, so some similarities are going to happen just because there aren't very many combinatorial possibilities. Even so, I don't even see the similarity between the different sequences of notes you're highlighting.
Do you hear any unity between the three movements?
My notes aren't to manipulate the notes to fit but to help you hear what I'm hearing in them, isolating what are, for me, the unifying characteristics.
What I hear is: 1st Movement: D---B, G, D-D-D, B = B-G-D
The thing to take away from this is that there's a lot of unity in the work. The three movements belong together. You might have to sit down with some of the elements and work on the first note of each bar, the notes on the beat or some such alteration to hear the main linking ideas and play around with them, improvising and such. You may pick up what the composer didn't intend but it all helps to present the piece in your own interpretation.
Agree. I hear the unity and they work nicely together.
Working through these exercises I have actually needed to play by reading. It helps me immensely of course, to have a clear recollection of how it goes in having listened to it so much.
My experience is that once I become really entrenched in a piece (for me this only comes with playing it) will I start to hear more things/similarities (likely plenty more) come to light.
From what I have gone over so far, this one does not appear like it would be too tough to tackle. And will probably be even better practice for my reading then Bach, where I truly need to go at a snails pace until I memorize it.
Of course, I will need to be selective on the ones I choose, as will never keep up with all of them. But think I will add this one to the list as the Bach is under control now and just bringing it up to presentation standard.
From an analysis stand point, at least for me, I think his one was a good one to do. I did not feel as far out of my element as I had with others. So, feeling good again. Albeit, confidence is not full steam yet.
Is there any more to discuss on this one? Or, is everyone still game to move along?
I don't hear any particular disunity, but I don't hear anything that ties these together more than just being in the general genre of music deedling about up and down in a fairly conservative harmonic language.
ETA: Greener and Richard, in addition to hearing the unity between the three movements of the Sonatina 2, do you hear these as being different from the Sonatina 1? I have the feeling that if I jumbled up the movements of these six Sonatinas, this type of picking out of notes could find similarities between any two chosen at random.
In a lot of ways, it is. But there is definitely stuff there to hear.
If you spend more time listening to how the composer has manipulated the exposition material in the development section you will have a better chance at hearing 'between the lines' in the other movements.
Even if you don't always hear it, just trying will improve the ability to hear.
Twenty years ago they started producing pictures of what looked like geometric patterns but they had other images concealed within them. Some people could see the other images, others couldn't. I guess this is a similar situation.
Is there any more to discuss on this one? Or, is everyone still game to move along?
I'm game to move along. I'm just going to be playing major catchup on the thematic details stuff from what you've done so far, but no reason to wait up for me on that. I think that's just going to be a long teeth-gnashing project for me.
Shall we do Clementi Sonatina 3? I would like to do all 6 Clementi Sonatinas, for the practice.
...Richard, in addition to hearing the unity between the three movements of the Sonatina 2, do you hear these as being different from the Sonatina 1?
I was going to come to that. It's a composers style. Some people profess to be able to distinguish Haydn from Mozart. Others cannot. I'm still unsure. I heard a piece of unfamiliar piano music and couldn't tell if it was Mozart or Beethoven. I was totally flummoxed. I knew all of Beethoven's 32 so I figured it had to be one of Mozart's unfamilar sonatas which would have made it an early one and it just didn't sound early. It turned out to be Clementi. I've been a huge fan of his ever since.
There are some things, such as the four-notes figures we've just been looking at, that will come up again and again, but the way they are handled tends to be unique to the composer/period/style.
The famous Rachmaninov variation 18 on Paganini's caprice features the very four note figure we've just been discussing. I don't think either Paganini or Rachmaninov were inspired by this sonatina!
I'll give this a try, though, looking for patterns and relationships.
One comment: as I looked at the last few posts, you all might as well be talking about Chinese as music. In other words, I would have to read the whole thread to comment!
Thanks, Gary. Actually I was wondering about that. But I figured Eb and Gb was close enough to D# and F# for me. But, had a feeling there wasn't something right about this. Plus, the Ab in the next measure was kind of bothering me, but I dismissed it since it didn't show up any more ... thank goodness.
Two main themes in Exposition M1 - M26: 1.) M1-M12 in C Major 2.) M13-m26 (G Major M13-M16, E Minor M18-M22, G Major M23-M26
Development M27 - M35 Starts in C Major and moves to E Minor at M32.
Recapitulation M36 - M64: I believe we are starting in G Major this time, moving to E minor at M42 and then to C Major at M47 and for duration.
M1-12 = first subject in tonic C. Yes. M13-26 = Second subject in G major. Yes.
E minor in M18-22? What is happening in the bass/LH? (important for establishing key) What is happening in RH? (not as important)
Development M27-35. Yes. M27-30 come from M1-2 M31-32 come from M18-19 and uses Eb suggesting C minor but is simply passing colour. M33-35 is to re-establish G major.
