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I think you're spearheading the operation, Jeff. Hopefully some of the catcher-uppers will offer something we've missed in the previous pieces or join in wherever you are. There does seem to be a lot of views for the number of participants. Be careful, Jeff, they may just be waiting to pounce on your next mis-step!

What to expect?

Typically only the first movement will be in sonata form. Certainly with these sonatinas that's the case.

The final movement is likely to be fast but not as intellectually engaging as a sonata form movement. The middle movement should present a gentler contrast usually with a change of key but don't expect much modulation.

Typically, and in a very general sense, the first movement will present you with technical fingerwork (scale, arpeggio and broken chord work) and architectural passages, pointing out themes and so on. The middle movement will offer an opportunity to develop your cantabile and the final movement to test your velocity and articulation.

There shouldn't be any exposition, development and recapitulation in the sense of a sonata form movement but you are likely to see a simple ABA form where the middle will be a contrast to the beginning and end. In Haydn's sonata the double bar in the menuet signalled a binary form movement rather than sonata form.

For the sonatina to have unity there should be an overlap of material but it's more likely in the outer movements. The middle movement will offer more contrast and may not be recognisably from the same sonatina. Of course, you are free to find something you can latch on to. It may be a very simple thing like one of the four-note figures. If I were writing a middle movement I would look at the jump from B to G in M1 or the two G's after the B, or even all three notes together as food for thought or inspiration.

But I'm not Clementi.

There may be nothing more than that he felt the movements went well together or that he composed them on the same day or after listening to the same jingle on his local radio station.

OK, thanks for the added pressure.



I shall gingerly pace along here and see if I can identify what Mr. Clementi was up to and will advise.



Yes, I am sure it was something like that. For some reason TV commercial jingles always stick in my head, so quite likely he had the same problem; "Buy ... Mennen"

I am surprised they call this movement Allegretto as it does not sound "lively and fast" to me.

We are in a new time signature 3/4 (here we go waltzing again. Well not quite but it does have a dancing type of lightness to it.)

We start off in C major and appears we move to G major (wait ... A minor again, sounds minor) just after the double bar and then until the middle of m16. Then back to C major for the duration.

Although we are in different time signature, the stepping down (M7) down, up, down, up, down (M8-m14), sounds like it may be coming from the same idea of M20 second half and M21 of first movement. He uses this again in M23 and M27.

Otherwise, everything else sounds and feels quite unique in this movement. Although M3 and 1/2 of 4 (and used elsewhere) reminds me of the theme from the Jolly Green Giant.

I knew I'd heard this somewhere before and turns out it was from my regular morning programming .

Whoops. Scratch the A minor ... thinking more on this.

Greener, how are you confusing G major and A minor? Or does it have sections of both? (Must.Look.At.Score.)

It must be G Major (F#). I was confusing with the G# to think A minor. But, G# right away goes natural again, so left with F# and clearly not A minor. Although, it sounds minor to me. But, no minor will fit, so I am now thinking it must be G major.

Have now looked at score. Greener, it's A minor and then G major.

Clementi Sonatina 2, 2nd movement.

Mm. 1-8 in C major.

Mm. 9-10 in A minor. Confirmed by chords: E Am, E Am: dominant, tonic, dominant, tonic.

Mm. 11-16 (first beat) in G major. Confirmed by chords in m.11 D G: dominant, tonic, and by closing chords in m.15 (last 2 beats) into m.16 (first beat): G/D, D, G.

M. 16 modulates back to C major.

Mm. 17-28 in C major again -- an expanded version of mm. 1-8.

Although this movement is marked Allegretto just like the first movement, in the recording it is played more slowly and meets the aural expectation of fast-slow-fast for the movements.

I see we have our harmony whizz kid back again!

Whenever you see a sharped accidental, Jeff, it's usually the seventh or a passing chromaticism. As we're in C the next sharp we can expect will be F# (the seventh of G major) or G# (the seventh of A minor).

Allegretto is between Andante, walking pace, and Allegro, running speed. So this is a jaunty pace like a child skipping through a forest. The posted recording drags far too much for my liking.

This is a touch too much but closer to my preference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t37NIFEJX8E

I see no real connexion with the first movement. If I play the first note of each pair, E-C-G, E-C-G it reminds me of the figure in M1 of the Allegro but it's distant.

We have the antecedent in M1-4 and the consequent in M5-8, a middle-8 at M9 and a reprise at M17.

After the first three measures of the middle section we start a climb to the climax of the piece on the G then begin the stepping top and bottom in M16 to the return of C major in M17. M24 is a nice touch before a repeat of the consequent to close.

There is perhaps a harmonic link to the first movement: A minor then G major in the middle section.

I've looked at the places at the beginning and end of the Development in movement 1 where I heard curious things, and I'm not sure now if I was hearing key (beginning) and cadence (end), or if I was hearing chord quality. The beginning gives us a dim7 chord when the LH comes in. The end gives us a dominant 7 chord (open, as Richard points out). Both of those are curious things, so I'm glad I heard something curious at those points: one as an odd chord, and the other as an odd cadence.

I'm still poking my nose under the tent when I get a chance.

Right now my problem is that my teacher has my plate very full (partly thanks to my mentioning the Moonlight thread to her...bang...assigned) You can bet I won't be mentioning Clementi 2 at my next lesson

Glad to see everyone still milling about.

Afraid I need to disclose more of my elementary understanding; This time re: time signatures. I never really knew what they meant. Just pretended I did. I figure it is about time I close yet another gap.

We just had 3/4 time, so three beats to a bar, but not quite sure what the 4 is all about at all. Now we are heading into 3/8 time. So, still three beats to a bar, but no clue of what the 8 is all about.

In first movement we had 2 beats to a bar, and is over 4 so understand this is cut time.

Any quick insight appreciated.

No more digression though ... promise.

Time signature. There is simple time, and the "other one" which I learned as "compound time" but apparently that name is in dispute. Erm?

Simple time is like 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8

The top number means how many beats there are in a measure. The bottom number means which note value gets a beat. So in 2/4 time there are two beats to a measure, often getting a rhythm of [STRONG weak]. The quarter (1/4) note gets the beat. 3/4 time has three beats to a measure, again the quarter note gets the beat, [STRONG weak weak]. 3/8 also has three beats to a measure, but the eighth note gets the beat. 4/4 or 4/8 has four beats, typically [STRONG weak Middle weak], with the quarter note, and the eighth note, getting the beat, respectively.

The relationship of the other notes relative to each other still stays the same. So in 4/8 time, if the eighth note gets the beat, there are 4 eighth notes to a measure, 2 quarter notes to a measure (they're twice as long), etc.

The other kind of time: 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 often goes in triplets and I learned to call this compound time. For example:
6/8 (1-2-3) (4-5-6) eighth notes = 2 beats of 3 sets of triplets.
9/8 (1-2-3) (4-5-6) (7-8-9) = 3 beats X 3 sets of triplets.
12/8 has four sets.

WOW, and I thought it was going to be a simple explanation.

Thanks KS. I will do some pondering on this and see if it starts to gel as I think of it in terms of how it sounds.

Fire away with questions if they come up. Actually I can make it simpler. For the time signatures in question, the top number says how many beats per measure, and the bottom says which note value gets the beat. End of story.

Wikki article

Forgot about the antecedent, consequent and reprise connotations so will try to keep these in mind moving forward. PS88 raises an interesting point regarding the keys transition and harmonic comparison to first Allegretto. Otherwise though, seems Mr. Clementi was in a new frame of mind and the only clear common thread is that it was written by the same hand.

Lets see what 3rd movement has in store for us. Much larger it appears, but again no repeats. In 3/8 time now and lots of triplet use is apparent.

What happened to your performance posting Keystring? I liked it too and was about to go back to it for this further analysis, but ... see no longer there.

Any tips, cautions or general things to keep an eye out for in 3rd movement?

Or, is there any more we should discuss on 2, before we move along?

Get straight on with the third movement, Jeff, and we'll have a look at the three together at the end.

What you should be looking out for is everything on the checklist and anything else of interest. Keep an open mind, but an active one!

Having a go at the Allegro:

I believe this movement is in Sonata format;

Three themes;
1) M1-m8
2) M9-m12
3) M13-m16

M1-m11 repeats in M17-m27, then we have a tie taken from theme 3 in m28-29.

Overall I think we have
Exposition M1-M48 (G Major)
Development M49-M74 (D Major)
Recapitulation M75-end (G Major)

Correction: D Major begins at M35 or perhaps even sooner at M32.

I wanted to do a little more comparison on the measures M32-M48. I was thinking of starting the development here, but this material I believe is just a re-work from earlier exposition themes.

At any rate, kind of rushing to get this in now, as I need to skip out and will not see what you think of this until later this evening.

Hopefully, I'm not totally out to lunch again.

I listened to it to the end and changed my mind at the third movement. What seemed expressive at first created doubts in my mind later on.

I don't think it's in sonata-allegro format because there is no tonic to dominant movement in what might be called the exposition, mm.1-31.

I see it in ternary form: ABA. Or more precisely, ABA', since the second time through A changes a little bit at the end.

A: mm.1-31. G major.
B: mm.32-74. D major.
A': mm.75-111. G major.

A few chromatics thrown in for interesting effect.

Unlike Greener, I count mm.31-48 as part of B rather than A because this material is not repeated in the final A' section.

Parts A and A' include a few A harmonic minor scales, reminiscent of the A minor to G major moves in the previous movements.

Part B includes some G#'s, flirting with the secondary dominant key of A major, but I think it remains a flirtation and never establishes the key.

Part B, like the middle section of the previous movement, ends on a D7 chord. There is a big pause before the resolution to G at the beginning of part A.

Not totally out to lunch, Jeff, but still having conceptual difficulties. From my post at the top of the page:

We don't need much analysis to determine where the exposition ends and the development begins. We just look for the double repeat bar.

There we can expect to see a final cadence in a contrasting key, usually the dominant so in this case we can expect to see a final cadence in D. At the double repeat bar.

And the development section begins at the double repeat bar.

Beethoven's sonatas do not repeat the second half but early Haydn, Mozart and Clementi sonatas do.

How can we tell Sonata form from Binary form? In sonata form the material heard in the contrasting key, all of it, will be heard again in the tonic key in the recapitulation, usually preceded by a restatement of the tonic material as well, albeit slightly modified.

What you do have is the keys, themes and main sections.
___________________________

Yes, PianoStudent88, this is simple ternary form, ABA. The showmanship finish is hardly grounds for the extra apostrophe in my book however.

The first verse is four lines, M1-4, slightly modified at M9-12, all tonic-dominant harmony, a third line in Am - D and a fourth line on the dominant returning to the second verse at M17.

Verse two closes with a V-I cadence at the end of a seven measure line 3 (or 2+5 for lines 3 and 4).

The B section begins at M32. M40 serves to break up more of the four squaredness. I agree that the G major in M33 is the dominant of D not tonic as the A7 in M35 reveals. M49-74 is the second half of the B section and again M73/4 breaks up the four-square feel.

All the accidentals in A are pure colour.

The first two lines remind me so much of the second movement. Play the first note of each pair in M1-4 of the Allegretto and then the first 8 measures here. Also the rhythm in M41-48 recalls the skipping feel.

And the first two phrases of the opening movement and this ending with that same rhythm using here the four note figure from M9 of the opening movement.

Yes, I recall this note for expectations on 2nd movement, and wish I had read this again for this movement. I actually went searching for insight that might help me avoid doom, but somehow missed this and rather came across another note somewhere in this thread that led me to think that we could very well come across a full sonata form movement again. That is what I thought I was seeing.

OK, rules are good. So, should be able to know when we are seeing a true Sonata form now (albeit not likely to be overly obvious) when it is encountered.

Not sure I am totally getting what you are meaning in the first phrase here. At any rate, I am past my piano curfew now, but will come back to this, at the keyboard in the AM, to review everything and be sure it comes clear.