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#1972075 - 10/11/12 10:38 PM Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds?
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
As for the Kawai CA95's piano sounds:

Have determined there is in fact a raspy, buzzing-like, metallic sound on several notes (just above middle C), C#, G#, A, C#, E, as altering many of the various "Virtual Technician" settings doesn't do anything to change it. The only piano preset that mutes/masks this fairly well is the "Mellow Grand" preset.

Also, this raspy (metallic) sound is most prominent with the default "Concert Grand" preset, and, is slightly less so with the "Concert Grand 2" preset. It is a very annoying and grating sound, although I don't particularly like having to compromise the settings to the "Mellow Grand" preset only, to avoid it.

And, I just confirmed that these buzzing notes sound the same whether listening to the speakers, or, through headphones. So, the fuzzy sounds are innate to the presets themselves, as it is not a soundboard / cabinet vibration.

Has anyone else encountered this?

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#1972082 - 10/11/12 10:50 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, given that you are hearing the same sound though both the instrument's speaker system and headphones, I expect the characteristic you are hearing was also present on the original Kawai EX concert grand when sampled.

I'm afraid there is not a great deal I can advise, beyond selecting a voice that uses different piano samples, as you have tried.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1972086 - 10/11/12 10:58 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
pv88, given that you are hearing the same sound though both the instrument's speaker system and headphones, I expect the characteristic you are hearing was also present on the original Kawai EX concert grand when sampled.

I'm afraid there is not a great deal I can advise, beyond selecting a voice that uses different piano samples, as you have tried.

Kind regards,
James
x


@James,

I agree with you that what I am hearing are the sampled sounds for those presets, as the original "Mellow Grand" setting is the only one I have found that minimizes (or, almost eliminates) the metallic buzzing of the strings.

Looks like I will be playing the EP3 instead, which has great clarity (in all of the piano sounds) as it displays none of that metallic nonsense.

My cheap Kawai EP3 sounds a lot better than the CA95!

CA95 is eek & EP3 is thumb

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#1972148 - 10/12/12 01:00 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 278
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
I will jump in ...

My hearing is not 100%, but I can add something to this.

I tried the notes you mentioned. Yes, they have a certain underlying sound that I can (barely) hear but find it hard to describe. It sounds most to me like a cardboard box being slid across a waxed concrete floor. Very hard to discern, but once heard, it is there. After the initial impulse of sound, the whoosh appears and remains until the sound level is at 20-30% volume.

I sensed this whoosh on more keys than you mentioned. For example, the A below Middle C does not have it. And about half the notes from Middle C thru E an octave away has this low level sound.

Were someone to ask me, my two cents is this. I would look first to how the sound is rendered in the Firmware instead of the Kawai Ex Grand recordings.

I used headphones only. Sennheiser HD280. Volume at 50 and 65%. Key press at a medium feel. While playing two note chords, I could not hear the whoosh.

+++

I used to own a Ford Expedition. The four air inlets in the dashboard were chromed. The remainder of the dashboard was some very handsome plastic of a tan/gray/camel color, I hated them I even went to the Dealer and asked the Parts guys if these were available in normal plastic colors. They were not. After another 175k miles, I sold the car but them chrome thingies aggravated me every now and then when I drove it.

In the overall picture, these swooshes are inconsequential. I view this anomaly the same way as the inlets. It is there. But barely. The other great features of this piano far outweigh a swoosh I will rarely hear unless searching for it.

Thanks ...
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#1972316 - 10/12/12 01:38 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
I wonder that there are no complaints for the CA65, which I expected to use same technique aside of the spruce soundboard ?

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#1972377 - 10/12/12 04:14 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Justplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 238
I haven't heard anything like this in any with any of the sounds. I have heard a hammer whoosh that is quite pleasing and sounds like I'm playing my grand, but even that is so very slight that I wouldn't complain.

I have what you might call, hypersensitive hearing. I can hear the difference of a thick, thin, bright, rich, colorful tone and the Kawai 95 is a very, very rich sound.

I love the sound, and am hooked on the Concert Grand sound and the warm strings are my favorite. I sometimes layer them, and sometimes don't.

The only time I had an issue with the CA95 was when there was a cord in the back of the piano vibrating against the soundboard. I tacked the cord to the wall and it sounds as fine and pure as before.



Still in love with it.

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#1972378 - 10/12/12 04:24 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Justplay]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Only time i've had an issue with a key noise is similar to justplay... the soundboard was doing its thing and my sunday paper was vibrating.... apart from that no issues. very happy.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1972418 - 10/12/12 06:33 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ozzienovice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Victoria, Australia
No problems here on my CA65. Although I did find the standard presets of "hall" for Concert Grand 1 & 2 a bit "spacey" - too much echo, so I changed them to "room" and saved them.

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#1972426 - 10/12/12 06:58 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Yes, i changed mine to lounge...
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1972524 - 10/12/12 11:18 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Still trying to figure out what it is I am hearing in the main "Concert Grand" sound that continues to be grating on the ears. This raspy / fuzzy sound could be in the speakers / soundboard / or, maybe even a cabinet vibration.

The Kawai EP3 appears to have far better piano sounds, with realistic live ambience in the reverb effects, and, superior speaker projection. So higher prices don't add up if the cheaper EP3 is able to outplay the "flagship" model.

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#1972532 - 10/12/12 11:37 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3704
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
This raspy / fuzzy sound could be in the speakers / soundboard / or, maybe even a cabinet vibration.



Except it's happening when you use headphone and the speakers/soundboard are not functioning...

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#1972554 - 10/13/12 12:37 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: pv88
Still trying to figure out what it is I am hearing in the main "Concert Grand" sound that continues to be grating on the ears. This raspy / fuzzy sound could be in the speakers / soundboard / or, maybe even a cabinet vibration.


May I remind you of your initial post:

Originally Posted By: pv88
And, I just confirmed that these buzzing notes sound the same whether listening to the speakers, or, through headphones. So, the fuzzy sounds are innate to the presets themselves, as it is not a soundboard / cabinet vibration.


Surely you're contradicting yourself?

Originally Posted By: pv88
The Kawai EP3 appears to have far better piano sounds...


Different, yes. Better, definitely not.

The EP3's piano samples are rather dated compared to those of any other recent Kawai (i.e. anything with 88-key sampling), and when compared to the latest HI-XL sounds utilised by the CA95/CA65 it's absolutely no contest.

Originally Posted By: pv88
...with realistic live ambience in the reverb effects...


The EP3's reverb/effects processor was reasonably good when initially developed, but it's easily outclassed by the far more powerful tone generator used by the CA95/CA65. There's absolutely no way the EP3's processor could handle all the modelling and resonance effects, high resolution reverbs, and 256 notes polyphony offered by the CA95/CA65.

Originally Posted By: pv88
and, superior speaker projection.


The EP3's speakers project upwards, largely due to the design of the instrument - this is true of almost all slab-type digital pianos. The CA95 speakers project down towards the floor, up through the top, and out towards the player's upper body. In addition, the instrument's soundboard speaker produces sound in all direction, but largely out the rear and front.

Sure, the EP3's speaker system is pretty good for a portable instrument, I agree. However, to suggest that its sound projection is superior to that of a CA95 is ridiculous.

Originally Posted By: pv88
So higher prices don't add up if the cheaper EP3 is able to outplay the "flagship" model.


Well, I doubt many would agree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Kind regards.
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1972624 - 10/13/12 05:38 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
pv - do you think it might be time to call your dealer and see if you can exchange the CA-95 for something else? I saw your post on the other thread about you preferring the action on the EP3 to CA-95. With that and the issues you believe you are experiencing with the CA's piano sound it would seem that this has not been a successful purchase. Perhaps the store would credit you and you could choose something else?
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1972627 - 10/13/12 06:16 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
pv - do you think it might be time to call your dealer and see if you can exchange the CA-95 for something else?


Even with the issue of the grating "Concert Grand" sound, and, the pedals being too far forward, I am trying (like the devil) to adapt to these CA95 defects with compromise:

1) By choosing a different piano preset, and, avoiding the main "Concert Grand" sound, like a plague.

2) To sit in a more unconventional (and, less comfortable) fashion to use the sustain pedal.

These problems are far more tolerable than having the sustain pedal resonance issue on the Casio AP-620, and, the loose pedals (with side-to-side play) on the Kurzweil Mark Pro 3i. Good riddance to Casio & Kurzweil, as there were obviously better options to be had.

The Kawai EP3 is undoubtedly the best portable digital I have ever played (bar none) as it rivals boards costing several times as much.

The V-Piano still sits at the top (on a special pedestal of its own) since nothing else out there can match it.

We all **** our pants in the end, whether we own pianos, or, not.

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#1972631 - 10/13/12 06:43 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: pv88
We all **** our pants in the end, whether we own pianos, or, not.


I don't understand this.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1972633 - 10/13/12 06:51 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 867
pv88, your recent posts have an odd ring (not to say a raspy metallic sound) to them... One might even think you're out on some skew crusade. I'll second EssBrace's suggestion - if your V-Piano isn't enough for you and you really want a console in addition, why don't you look for one you are satisfied with?

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#1972701 - 10/13/12 10:06 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3704
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
PV, you haven't really made one convincing argument for why you would persist with your CA95. You pretty much state that you are delighted with your V-piano in most respects. Given the CA95 is about as sophisticated as console pianos get and it still isn't good enough, I'd say it's time to cut your losses and go back to the V-piano. There is little to be gained by starting a new thread every week about something that you don't like and can't be changed. The fact is, it just doesn't seem to be a good match for you.

Question: you seem pretty well off - why don't you get a nice acoustic piano?

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#1972755 - 10/13/12 12:50 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
I tried today at the dealer the CA95 and the CA65, I had special attention to the keys C# G# A.... Nothing special to report, but I also can note exclude that there is some special noise to hear. There was a slight difference which I could not really fix during the time of testing. There were different pianos in exercise, which were mixing with my play. May be at a quite environment the results would have been different.

Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well. If its not only on the two instruments, more reports during the next day should appear. It could also be falsified or verified by some software like TuneLabPro, which is free to a certain extent. May be also DPBSD could help. There are experts here in the forum who could assess the posiblity of DPBSD better then me.

pv88 would you mind to try to analyse this raspy sound with TuneLabPro, eg. to oberserve the differences for the spectrum between the tone C# and C ?

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#1972773 - 10/13/12 01:58 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: ando]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: ando
PV, you haven't really made one convincing argument for why you would persist with your CA95. You pretty much state that you are delighted with your V-piano in most respects. Given the CA95 is about as sophisticated as console pianos get and it still isn't good enough, I'd say it's time to cut your losses and go back to the V-piano. There is little to be gained by starting a new thread every week about something that you don't like and can't be changed. The fact is, it just doesn't seem to be a good match for you.

Question: you seem pretty well off - why don't you get a nice acoustic piano?


+1 thumb
_________________________
Kevin L. Spindler
Early Keyboard Instruments
Stonington, CT
Harpsichords & Clavichords
Custom Instruments Built to Order
Rebuilding, Repair & Restoration
http://www.facebook.com/kevin.spindler.129

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#1972858 - 10/13/12 05:39 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: KLSinCT]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Hi, I am an CA51 owner and am considering to update now to CA95 I repeatedly visited a big showrooom to make a few hour sound tests.

Trying out most of the leading instrument competitors of Kawai, Roland, Yamaha, Casio and some Kurzweil resulted for me the clear preference for the Kawai CA95 (even if I disregard budget concerns).

(Subjectively I felt a very convincing mechanical superiority of the of the GF action just as overwhelming, along with a great soundboard response. The price premium of 1K EUR for CA95 seemed just justified, being the sound clarity of CA65 not on the same level, even through heaphones I felt a little difference. There are some remaining questions though how the soundboard and old MIDI/3sensor will support or compromise my SW-pianos and SW-Harpsichords ...)

However during my visit in the showroom built up a small ad hoc discussion about an observation of a just present professional of some (for him allegedly very disturbing) noise he described as an "airy" or "puffing" by-tone out of the speakers of both CA63 and CA93. He attributed it to the speakers or amplifier in the sound producing path. He was able to hear it consistently with headphones as well (albeit somewhat weaker) - he didn't mention anything "metallic" character of the noise though.

My 55 yr. old hearing abilities are enough to hear out subtle pitch differences, but obviously are not sensitive enough anymore to detect all subtle dynamical nuances. Or my ears were possibly just tired after having many hours of car driving and in a noisy show-room, so I cannot be more specific to the problem.

I have been followed all of the present discussions here about CA95/95, let-off behavior with three sensors and pedal depth distance etc... So I would be very interested to read a satisfying conclusion to these noise issues. (The above complaints all seem to refer to very consinstently reproduceable and measurable issues, if there are some really in it at all.)

cheering: Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1972866 - 10/13/12 05:59 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Temperament]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: temperament
I have been followed all of the present discussions here about CA95/95, let-off behavior with three sensors and pedal depth distance etc... So I would be very interested to read a satisfying conclusion to these noise issues. (The above complaints all seem to refer to very consinstently reproduceable and measurable issues, if there are some really in it at all.)

cheering: Attila


There are no "issues". It is what it is. The sounds are how Kawai made them. If there's something you don't like about those sounds don't buy the piano! I really don't think there's a fault with this new series of CA instruments. What is being described is a characteristic.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1972870 - 10/13/12 06:14 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Temperament]
McBuster Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 278
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
temperament

From my previous post

"In the overall picture, these swooshes are inconsequential. It is there. But barely. The other great features of this piano far outweigh a swoosh I will rarely hear unless searching for it."

Change that to -never- hear ...

This anomaly is so hard to hear, and I am so --satisfied-- with the CA95 after owning a CA63 and CA93. Go play one somewhere, for as long as you want. I believe you will find it to be a very satisfying experience. I know I certainly do.

I look at this a bit differently. In very rough numbers. Let's say the Dealer buys a CA95 wholesale for $2500US. Ok ... Freight is about $200 and that brings the price down to $2300. The Distributor in Calif brings it in for $1800. Let's say the freight from Thailand is another $200 per. So that means Kawai is putting that out the door for about $1600. At a Cost of Sales of 65%, the Gross Profit might be $450 and actually designing, testing, producing this piano for maybe $1150.

What a Bargain this is ... A decent sounding unit that looks great by a company that only makes pianos ...

They have put together a very nice package indeed.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#1972895 - 10/13/12 07:25 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Thx, Jon,

I personally share the same positive enthusiasm about the CA95 as a product with You. If we consider, how much "Mass of Cumulative Human Creative Effort" could the Pharaos in ancient Egypt have reclaimed as their own with their Pyramids compared to how much we do while owning a single digital piano, it is in our favour by a large margin...

However a SW product must not necessarily be considered as fully completed and freezed in an "it is" status. Earlier I had the chance to participate a little in the process of developing SW pianos (and SW in general as a profession), so is very conceivable and nothing of outrageous for me to discover some issues in such an early phase of the product lifecycle. Such issues should be analysed and fixed/improved and if it is done in a transparent manner it is equally good for us consumer and for the fabricant as well. KAWAI put out some updates for their earlier models in the past and I think it will be no different with the present models - we can hope that we get so much improvement as possible packed in them.

Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1972898 - 10/13/12 07:39 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: McBuster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: McBuster
Let's say the Dealer buys a CA95 wholesale for $2500US. Ok ... Freight is about $200 and that brings the price down to $2300. The Distributor in Calif brings it in for $1800. Let's say the freight from Thailand is another $200 per. So that means Kawai is putting that out the door for about $1600.


Well, I think if shipping on these was that high, they would just locate their factories here and then place them next to big population centers. They don't, so I have to conclude that transportation/distribution costs are much lower than you are assuming.

I don't mean to take away too much from your point. The modern economy is amazing, but we can only get an idea of how well an industry is serving us by comparing to other industries we are familiar with: computers, furniture, appliances...all can be purchased for so little that if you started breaking down their costs generously (as you have) they appear to have to pay us to take their stuff.

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#1972912 - 10/13/12 08:26 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4441
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well..."

pv88, ears, and their ability to hear, are not identical for the whole human population of Earth. Some resonances or interference patterns can be created in the ear itself, and anyway, hearing actually takes place in the brain. Also, though they are short, the nerves which conduct the sound information to the brain can influence what makes it to their destination. Additionally, there are some drugs (even OTC ones) that can make a problem for hearing, especially if they're taken in combination and the effects are added together.

It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.

You might visit an audiologist to have your hearing evaluated, or do some online research to learn how you can protect your hearing for the long term. Anyway, it doesn't seem that this is the right keyboard for you, and you would be wise to undo the deal, if you can. If that's not possible, you might use the keyboard as a MIDI controller to control Ivory or another outboard sound.

If you can narrow it down to certain frequencies which bother you (they might be among the upper partials; even ultrasonic or subsonic sound energy can trigger an effect in the hearing), you might see if a notch filter or comb filter gives you relief. Some people hear these effects when playing acoustic piano. It's not something that a tuner can fix or that changing the room's acoustics can help, and of course they typically accuse the piano. But, the solution is: a different model of piano.
_________________________
Clef


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#1972989 - 10/14/12 01:54 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Wow Jeff, that is a great contribution. Brain- ear interaction and human hearing defects should be taken into acount even if McBuster and temprament reports sound to point to a similar problem as pv88 has. Now, even more I am convinced that this problem should be analyzed by acoustic experts and audiologist support, using some technical equipment to qualify and quantify this effect, but may be there are more simple problems causing the defect, like none well controlled mechanical boundary conditions on the spruce soundboard, causing at different notes different modes with different soundboard boundary motion. Or even there could be more simple effects, like some interaction with some furniture resonances in the room the ca95 is operated. This could be rather simply excluded by changing the position of the piano for the furniture interactions. Do not know how the sound board is fixed and don't want to give some advice to work on it, but a Kawai technician could have a look on it.

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#1972992 - 10/14/12 02:02 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
There are no "issues". It is what it is. The sounds are how Kawai made them. If there's something you don't like about those sounds don't buy the piano! I really don't think there's a fault with this new series of CA instruments. What is being described is a characteristic.


@EssBrace,

Thanks for your reply, as it is true there are no real "faults" to be found. It is in my perceptions of a few details that has colored things a bit.

I now have come to the realization that the piano has just a few notes (in the "Concert Grand" preset) that I am perceiving a raspy / metallic sound, and, if I choose "Concert Grand 2" or another preset, it is minimized or negated. It is obvious that many of the piano presets have bright tones, to begin with.

Perhaps I have been too hard on myself in the search for perfect sounding samples in a digital, which apparently does not exist. I am now just enjoying the CA95 for what it is, a very good representation of the Kawai EX Concert Grand.

The CA95 is still one of the best digital console models to be had.

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#1972995 - 10/14/12 02:27 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Jeff Clef]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.


@Jeff,

It is very interesting that you mentioned tinnitus, as I do in fact have it myself, in the form of a very high pitched ringing that is always present, although in normal circumstances I do not notice it as much during the day, but only at times when things are very quiet, or, at night. Have had this ailment since I was very young as it was more than likely a result of the middle ear infections I had as a kid since I used to swim a lot. Had to undergo surgery to have the ears drained a few times and had small tubes put into the ear drums to relieve excessive fluid, etc.

As for the raspy notes in the CA95, I think I have narrowed it down to the samples themselves (ruling out any speaker / soundboard / cabinet vibrations), as mentioned in my other reply above, to EssBrace.

My search for perfection has ended with digital pianos I now own, as I should really get down to the business of enjoying them for what they are... fine musical instruments, to be played.

Also, for everyone that misunderstood my perceptions of the sounds I hear in the CA95, including the other pedal depth issue, my apologies on that.

Don't let my "critical" reviews get in the way of enjoying your pianos, as I tend to point out things that may not be an issue with others.

Extra note:

I think I can lay these perceived issues to rest now, as the CA95 is a great instrument that should be enjoyed.

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#1973004 - 10/14/12 03:01 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
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Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
pv 88 Congratulations to you that you are finally satisfied. I have read you last point and knowing about the sound of CA95, I can understand very well. The special on the Kawai sound for me is, that there is some base tone, then less in the middle (probably 2nd and 4th harmonics), but at the higher end a lot of harmonics, probably much more then on Yamaha and Roland pianos. Would be interesting to see some spectrum analysis. But this would well explain some interferences which are dominant.

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#1973034 - 10/14/12 06:26 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: ap55]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I have been very extensively investigating the effect of temperaments (historical and self constructed) on subjective musical perception in the past 3-4 years, and have so much experience with elusive physical perception issues, that I am now very catious at judging some phenomena. It is most subjective and can change dramatically with time. What you percieve as disturbing on one day (overtones; 3d interval difference from the ideal), you can hear the same phenomenon as real or spicy and inspiring tension on another one.

Once you get accustumed to one flavor (temperament, instrument sound), it can become boring with time or the opposite, you cannot swap to another one easily.
If you focus to the details, You can very easily get obsessed with nuances (I've got).

Once I have heared the anecdote about the phsysicits Helmholtz, who while intensively working on the theory of overtones complained that he couldn't go to a concert because he wasn't be able to hear any music but the overtones only...

Than there is the effect of tiredness: if you are tired, your perception can be compromised (resulting in smoothing out disturbances), but at the same your whole compensation abilities too (amplifiying anomalies). You will be let with a complete other combination of accoustic information processing apparatus.

It is the whole rich world of sound perception. (It is similar with visual percepiton as well, eg. if you wath an old pre-WWII colour movie at first you see the very comressed flat colours but after a short while your brain compensates and you forget it.)

As I have said, I personally was NOT ABLE to hear out anything bad with CA95 (although definitely with CA65 where some harmonic distortions were present even some with good headphones (Sennheiser HD650 and AKG271).

With CA95 I could very well here metallic overtones and resonances with the mighty SoundBoard along with very real vibrations, but the result was not more for me as the personality of the individual keys.

(I am just wondering, whether the soundboard/amplifier is trimmed to the built-in sound synthesis and how it can work togeeher with external sound sources/instruments, whether there are some untamed interferences?).

Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1973046 - 10/14/12 07:13 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
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Registered: 10/03/12
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Loc: Germany, Bremen
@Attila/termperament:

As there are strong indications that our brain works - at least in parts belonging to sensing - on quantum mechanical level (therewith some speculations that it works already as a quantum computer) - see R.Penrose, the emperors new mind -, and is highly adoptable and much more capable as any other human build logic, I sign what you have written. You probably nailed the problem with your discussion. We can get out the next day with a complete different opinion, while sensing exactly the same phenomenons.

By the way, you mentioned the headphone. I had yesterday a surprising result, while I played a digital over and w/o headphone. The headphone was a kind of cheap thing, and while I was jumping from the middle octave to one octave higher, my brain was expecting to sit on a complete different instrument, so much the sound characteristics was changed. Very funny, at the first glance I was thinking I don't like this piano. Using it over the build in speaker was then a quit normal experience w/o any none-regularities and with a nice sound.

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#1982434 - 11/04/12 12:20 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Jeff Clef]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well..."

pv88, ears, and their ability to hear, are not identical for the whole human population of Earth. Some resonances or interference patterns can be created in the ear itself, and anyway, hearing actually takes place in the brain. Also, though they are short, the nerves which conduct the sound information to the brain can influence what makes it to their destination. Additionally, there are some drugs (even OTC ones) that can make a problem for hearing, especially if they're taken in combination and the effects are added together.

It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.

You might visit an audiologist to have your hearing evaluated, or do some online research to learn how you can protect your hearing for the long term. Anyway, it doesn't seem that this is the right keyboard for you, and you would be wise to undo the deal, if you can. If that's not possible, you might use the keyboard as a MIDI controller to control Ivory or another outboard sound.

If you can narrow it down to certain frequencies which bother you (they might be among the upper partials; even ultrasonic or subsonic sound energy can trigger an effect in the hearing), you might see if a notch filter or comb filter gives you relief. Some people hear these effects when playing acoustic piano. It's not something that a tuner can fix or that changing the room's acoustics can help, and of course they typically accuse the piano. But, the solution is: a different model of piano.


@Jeff,

I still continue to hear the raspy /buzzing sounds on the CA95:

Everything you have mentioned above makes sense to me as I think that the tinnitus I have (which is a very high pitched ringing sound) may very well be the culprit as to why I am hearing the raspy piano tones. It appears to be most noticeable when the volume is set higher on the piano, as at lower volumes it is not quite as pronounced and things are smoothed out a bit when using the "Mellow Grand" presets and the "Mellow 1 & 2" voicing settings. This metallic sound is somewhat grating to the ears, but only with a given range of notes that are mostly above middle C.

This definitely has me concerned now (as for my ears / hearing) as I may look into seeing an ear doctor to see if my current tinnitus might be triggering the issue with sounds I am hearing.

Could it be that I am losing my hearing, or, is it just that the metallic sounds of only the Kawai CA95 sound "raspy" to me, whereas another digital might not sound the same way?

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#1982439 - 11/04/12 12:54 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3704
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well..."

pv88, ears, and their ability to hear, are not identical for the whole human population of Earth. Some resonances or interference patterns can be created in the ear itself, and anyway, hearing actually takes place in the brain. Also, though they are short, the nerves which conduct the sound information to the brain can influence what makes it to their destination. Additionally, there are some drugs (even OTC ones) that can make a problem for hearing, especially if they're taken in combination and the effects are added together.

It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.

You might visit an audiologist to have your hearing evaluated, or do some online research to learn how you can protect your hearing for the long term. Anyway, it doesn't seem that this is the right keyboard for you, and you would be wise to undo the deal, if you can. If that's not possible, you might use the keyboard as a MIDI controller to control Ivory or another outboard sound.

If you can narrow it down to certain frequencies which bother you (they might be among the upper partials; even ultrasonic or subsonic sound energy can trigger an effect in the hearing), you might see if a notch filter or comb filter gives you relief. Some people hear these effects when playing acoustic piano. It's not something that a tuner can fix or that changing the room's acoustics can help, and of course they typically accuse the piano. But, the solution is: a different model of piano.


@Jeff,

I still continue to hear the raspy /buzzing sounds on the CA95:

Everything you have mentioned above makes sense to me as I think that the tinnitus I have (which is a very high pitched ringing sound) may very well be the culprit as to why I am hearing the raspy piano tones. It appears to be most noticeable when the volume is set higher on the piano, as at lower volumes it is not quite as pronounced and things are smoothed out a bit when using the "Mellow Grand" presets and the "Mellow 1 & 2" voicing settings. This metallic sound is somewhat grating to the ears, but only with a given range of notes that are mostly above middle C.

This definitely has me concerned now (as for my ears / hearing) as I may look into seeing an ear doctor to see if my current tinnitus might be triggering the issue with sounds I am hearing.

Could it be that I am losing my hearing, or, is it just that the metallic sounds of only the Kawai CA95 sound "raspy" to me, whereas another digital might not sound the same way?


PV, why don't you record the offending notes, along with good notes around them, and let us be the judge of how raspy it is?

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#1982447 - 11/04/12 01:42 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: ando]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
@ando,

Thanks for your suggestion in making a recording, as I will try to do that here, shortly. Will record the CA95 with a stereo audio cable into Audacity. Perhaps it will be of some help to determine exactly what it is that I am hearing.

And, there is no doubt that I am perceiving the same raspy sounds through headphones, as well as the built-in soundboard speaker system.

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#1982451 - 11/04/12 01:18 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, I would also recommend using the instrument's built-in USB audio functions to record directly to a MP3/WAV file.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1982455 - 11/04/12 02:26 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Here is the test recording from the CA95:

https://www.box.com/s/28b8un6ypza78g0gyhuz

Recording notes - [the playing starts at the 13 second mark]

Have used the default "Concert Grand" piano sound with volume set at three increments (or, dots) on the CA95. Recorded the audio directly into "Audacity" with a stereo audio cable. Here is what was played:

1) A scale from C to C played legato, starting at one octave below middle C and going to one octave higher than middle C, and, back to the low C.

Each white key is struck ONE time, and, every black key is struck THREE times to emphasize the black key resonance.

Have determined that I hear more of the raspy / buzzing sound mainly on the black keys, not the white keys.

2) Two sets of all black key arpeggios, the first set is played without the sustain pedal, and, the second set is played with pedal.

3) A set of all black key staccato notes.

Isn't it relatively easy to hear this raspy / buzzing quality in the black keys?

I do find it to be rather grating and annoying at times.

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#1982461 - 11/04/12 02:58 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Sounds fine to me.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1982464 - 11/04/12 03:11 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Kawai James]
Stevesie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/23/12
Posts: 45
I'm no expert, but I can just hear it on some notes. That said it has far less raspyness than the Steinway VST I muck about with.

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#1982465 - 11/04/12 03:11 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
@James,

If you don't hear anything, then what exactly am I hearing?

What is really odd is that I tend to hear the raspy quality more when playing through the speakers / soundboard as compared with the headphones. It is only when I push the volume above three-quarters maximum then the buzzing almost fades out, or, away.

However, the piano is almost too loud (for my ears) at close to maximum volume, so I have to use lower settings, however, anything around 50% volume (or, less) is where the fuzziness is most pronounced.

Must be due to my tinnitus (i.e., ringing in the ears), as I will have to get checked out and see if I might have developed some hearing loss over the years. Need to try and find a hearing specialist.

Also, would like for some other folks to listen to the test recording to see what can be determined.

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#1982468 - 11/04/12 03:43 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Extra note:

Have also determined that the overall clarity and harmonic resonance (including decay) appears to be far better with every piano sound that is designated with "2" as compared with the first (or, original) sound.

"Concert Grand 2" would definitely be my choice in the first movement of Beethoven's "Moonlight" sonata, since the original "Concert Grand" sound does not have as full a sustain when striking the first g-sharp melody note in the sonata, as I have compared them directly.

Just in striking that solo g-sharp melody note repeatedly (by itself) one can hear the improved resonance and decay (length of sustain) in the "Concert Grand 2" preset as compared to "Concert Grand."

I thought the newer "Concert Grand" sound was supposed to be the improved one, not the other way around?

Test this for yourself when striking the g-sharp melody note (in the sonata) as "2" is better than "1."

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#1982469 - 11/04/12 04:07 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, there are a variety of different piano tones, each with their own character. If you happen to prefer 'Concert Grand 2' over 'Concert Grand', that's fine. You may also wish to use the 'User Memory' feature ('Basic Settings' menu) to store your preferred piano sound so that it is selected automatically when turning the instrument on.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1982470 - 11/04/12 04:10 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Upright Offline
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Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 132
Loc: Germany
pv88, I guess, I recognize, what you are hearing. One note has a very distinct metallic sound. Some other also, but to a lower extend. On an acoustic I would say, that is easily cured by your piano technician. Voicing these tones to a similar level can be easily done.

James, I know you are not a technician, but maybe you could ask your colleagues: Could it be, that on this particular key, the sensor reacts differently and the tone is created with more overtones as it would have been hit harder?

@pv88:
For picky ears, I found pianoteq to be the best customizable piano software available. I like the sound of the new D in the Version 4. And you can customize it on a note by note level. This is not an cheap solution, though, as you need the Pro version for all possibilities.

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#1982472 - 11/04/12 04:18 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Upright
Could it be, that on this particular key, the sensor reacts differently and the tone is created with more overtones as it would have been hit harder?


I doubt it. If there was an issue with one of the key's sensors I expect there would be a considerable difference in volume, or possibly the key would not sound at all.

As noted on the first page of this thread, I expect any characteristics heard would also have been present on the original Kawai EX concert grand during recording.[/quote]

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1982474 - 11/04/12 04:23 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Stevesie]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
@Stevesie,

I am glad to hear that at least one other person can make out what it is I am hearing, although for me it is far more pronounced, as this may be due to the tinnitus (ringing in the ears) that I have had since childhood.

Listening through headphones seems to minimize the issue, just a bit.

However, I bought the piano to play it using the soundboard.

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#1982478 - 11/04/12 04:36 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
I listened to the recording. Richard, I think I have a similar tinnitus problem to you - in low ambient noise conditions I have a very high pitched ringing and have had it all my life - it's not got better or worse. I don't think that has anything to do with it.

What I hear is the sound of the Kawai sampling, ie, the original piano is what you are hearing. For what it's worth whilst the resolution or memory size might be greater on the CA-95, this sounds identical to my MP10 - it's clearly the same source piano and I'd put money on it being the same sampling session. It's just the way the Kawai DPs sound.
_________________________
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#1982480 - 11/04/12 04:48 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
...it's clearly the same source piano and I'd put money on it being the same sampling session.


Correct.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1982485 - 11/04/12 05:11 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
I can certainly hear a metallic stringy sound, more prominent in some black notes.

A lot of DP's have piano voices with similar metal tones, the Roland SN being another example.

I think it's a personal like or dislike thing. I really don't like the Roland SN when sustained and that put me off purchasing a FP7F. This probably would not be my preference of voice on the 95 but it would suit certain types of music.

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#1982495 - 11/04/12 06:28 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I listened to the recording. Richard, I think I have a similar tinnitus problem to you - in low ambient noise conditions I have a very high pitched ringing and have had it all my life - it's not got better or worse. I don't think that has anything to do with it.

What I hear is the sound of the Kawai sampling, ie, the original piano is what you are hearing. For what it's worth whilst the resolution or memory size might be greater on the CA-95, this sounds identical to my MP10 - it's clearly the same source piano and I'd put money on it being the same sampling session. It's just the way the Kawai DPs sound.


Steve,

Yes, my tinnitus is exactly like what you have mentioned having yourself, as it hasn't really changed one way or the other. It can be more noticeable when things get to be very quiet, so I leave an air purifier running at night in which the fan pretty much masks the ringing to where you don't notice it.

As for the original "Concert Grand" piano sound on the CA95, it just doesn't seem to have the clarity and overall resonance that "Concert Grand 2" does, as it sounds far less defined and not as clear.

With "Concert Grand 2" the highest treble notes are open and spacious, and the mid-range has full tones, along with a more realistic sounding bass. All the other # "2" presets are similar.

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#1982521 - 11/04/12 08:37 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
swiss_boy Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 13
Hi pv88,

Honestly, listening to your samples, for my ears it sounds as if you just hit the black keys harder (i.e. faster) than the white keys - and the instrument is responding to this in as it is supposed to.

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#1982544 - 11/04/12 09:30 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Montano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 25
It's good we have been provided with an MP3 file in order to be able to make a judgement.
To me there is nothing wrong with this CA95. It is just the way pianos can sound. Through the samples we have to deal with the sound of metal strings. One may not like the sound of a particular piano, but there is nothing wrong.
Now we could start a discussion about shortcomings of my hearing, LOL.
What I mean is: people prefer different piano sounds, so don't worry about your ears.

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#1982595 - 11/04/12 12:18 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
For me it is just the same what I've heard on the "real" CA95. The sound is not very sterile (perhaps somewhat less so as with some other digital instruments), but couldn't find anything bad. The attack phase is with somewhat airy noise (not metallic), but I think it is only due to the noises from hammer head impact captured by the sampling process.

You can check Your experience with other DP-s online

Would be interesting I think for yourself in the first line, if it is instrument-specific.

Sometimes I get tired from a specific instruments because of its mere sound character - the most so from my old acoustic vertical, it has much different resonances and noises and a quite loud instrument - or from harpsichords sharp overtones.

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#1982625 - 11/04/12 01:41 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Jeff Clef Offline
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Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4441
Loc: San Jose, CA
pv88, in answer to your question about whether the raspy, metallic quality of the notes which are bothering you, are causing your tinnitus to get worse... I would have to say that it seems doubtful, though I can't say for sure. My understanding of what makes tinnitus worse, or of what exposes us to the danger of hearing impairment, is not the tonal quality of sound, but the combination of the loudness, and the length of time we're exposed to it. There are tables one can look up online--- OSHA has one, for example--- that give these figures, which are intended to be safety guidelines for permissible workplace exposure, for what they consider to be an average person. That mythical "average guy."

My personal experience is, that now that I have some tinnitus, I'm not "average" anymore, and I have less ability to tolerate both the loud dB levels... and the length of time I can listen, before my tinnitus acts up, is a LOT less than the tables say. I've had to stop subscribing to our local solo piano concert series because I just can't take the concert D in the small hall without having my ears buzz for a month. I was not very happy about it, but I wanted to keep on hearing, so... (Well, they do have some concerts in a much bigger hall, and that seems ok... if you're ok with being seated a mile away from Garrick Ohlssen, instead of 30 feet.)

It could be true that some frequencies in the bundle of tones you hear as 'raspy,' are frequencies your ears are more sensitive to, and so they bother you more. I forget the technical name this is called, but one backwards-seeming feature of early hearing loss is, not that you hear less well, but that things sound hyper-loud. One way I hear this, is that the tinnitus doesn't sound like a high-pitched tone anymore, but that the notes sound shredded up, and the louder the sound, the more the tone shreds and takes on this very odd quality, as if somebody was turning a mod wheel--- except it's the real AP and the naked ear. And it is known that different frequencies are detected by different parts of the inner ear--- tiny little hairs that stimulate nerve endings; there are many of them, so that 'rasp' could bother some but not all.

The only way you can fix it is, turn down the volume. Sometimes tweaking the EQ settings can get you there. To me, it's a danger sign to stop listening for awhile and let my ears rest.

30% of all Americans have some degree of hearing impairment. And that tinnitus can be so bad for some people, that they're totally miserable; some have even committed suicide. The audiologists only advice is, "Get used to it; learn to ignore it; try a white noise background to see if that helps; guard your hearing against overloud sounds." And, they can tell you how much hearing loss you have, and in what frequencies (usually the higher ones).

There's so much suffering over this, it would be really great if research could turn up some treatments. When I have a free half-hour, I'll do the look-ups again and post a page with some of the more useful links to information. Many musicians have some difficulties with this (not just keyboardists, and not just old people--- or rockers). The list of drugs that aggravate the ear (ototoxic is the name) given in the Physicians' Desk Reference was an eye-opener for me, and avoiding those drugs is one thing you might be able to do to help yourself. Any doctor or library will have this book, and the list was available online a few years ago. But avoiding the high sound pressure measured in decibels, and shortening the length of exposure time--- that's the kernel of it. I wish there was more to tell.

You're over-kind in describing me as an 'expert.' I'm not a doc or audiologist; I've just done some research which anyone could do, to try to help myself.
_________________________
Clef


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#1982628 - 11/04/12 01:48 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Temperament]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
I think I hear it too, depending on the head phone I use more or less eminent. I think with the cheaper headphone used at the dealer I wouldn't here it at all.
...and hopefully it is the same I here than you. I would me restrain from buying now I know. It is certainly within the sample. To hear the original acoustic would be great for comparison. Wish you that you find a workaround or Kawai will provide an update.

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#1982662 - 11/04/12 03:08 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: ap55]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I tried it to hear out with my Sennheiser HD650 - a very HQ headphones.
Did hear nothing.

But I am 54 Ys old. my hearing frequency limit is around 12 kHZ.

Could some of you who are hearing this and percieve it as a problem analyse it perhaps with a high-pass filter? Perhaps some high frequency overtones and/or noises are disturbing you. (I couldn't hear anything, of course)

Or could it be it possible, that what pv88 described as "raspy metallic sound" is the same what I described as "some airy noise in attack"? Attila

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#1982942 - 11/05/12 09:40 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Although I have not been following this thread up until now and just jumped in, I thank you all for some much insight info on hearing impairments that can influence your judgement. I was currently in the same boat / going down a similar path as pv88 , because I hear overtones and such being added to certain note combinations (ES7). Now I wonder very much if it isn't just my hearing that's fooling me and that there is nothing wrong with the amp system (introducing unwanted harmonics ). If anyone's interested in some sound samples , pm me. Then I know for sure if its just me / my ears or if its really in the sound itself.

Interesting thread. I think that when you know for sure it's your own hearing that's introducing certain unwanted sounds, that is bad enough , but it will perhaps let you enjoy the DP more, because you know then its not the instrument that is faulty. Saves a lot of time and frustration...J

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#1983099 - 11/05/12 03:54 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
pianomike Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 59
Hi everybody, I have just read through this thread and I understand about the metalic noise you hear,I think it has something to do with the harmonic imaging.I used to have the kawai ex and it had the same sound problem, it was a little to metalic and a little ringy. I now have the es7 and it still has a little bit of the metalic ring to it ,but by eqing it properly ,putting the sound into melow 1 and putting the touch on heavy I can get a very nice sound out of the concert grand one piano which is my favorite. The room accoustics and humidity level of the room also probably factor into the sound comming through the speakers, I also turn the reverb off,if I use reverb I,ll use room. Im kind of a computer idiot and my next task is to figure out how to download the newest fixes for the pedal and the rhtym section loudness.

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#1983323 - 11/06/12 07:28 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Hi, pv88, could You check please these two issues with your CA95 and post it under that topic? Thx.
One issue in the topic quoted, one in the answer

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#1983460 - 11/06/12 02:38 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
@pianomike , that's an interesting thought. It could indeed be the way that PHI works and that some harmonics are just a bit exaggerated with certain note combinations and are thus part of the character that the Kawai DP line has in general. Interesting ! of course it will have different effects between HI-XL, PHI and UPHI algorithms , but some of all these "I hear this and that strange harmonics and sounds" may indeed be the Kawai processing just doing its job.

Perhaps James can shine a light on this if that could indeed be the case for many of the phenomenon we experience. Would be a relief and end of search for other causes ...

Than it will be either you like and can live with it , or you don't . J


Edited by JFP (11/06/12 02:39 PM)

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#1983533 - 11/06/12 06:01 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
pianomike Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 59
JFP, The first Kawai I had was an es-x I misprinted an put ex, Im not sure but I think it was Kawais first electonic digital with harmonic imaging,and I do think thats just the way they sound but the es7 definetly sounds better than the es-x.

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#1983549 - 11/06/12 06:57 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Temperament]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
@Temperament,

Please check the thread below as I have given my result (for the CA95) regarding the sustain pedal resonance test, here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1983548.html#Post1983548

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#1983666 - 11/07/12 04:53 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Jeff Clef]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2722
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
It could be true that some frequencies in the bundle of tones you hear as 'raspy,' are frequencies your ears are more sensitive to, and so they bother you more. I forget the technical name this is called, but one backwards-seeming feature of early hearing loss is, not that you hear less well, but that things sound hyper-loud. One way I hear this, is that the tinnitus doesn't sound like a high-pitched tone anymore, but that the notes sound shredded up, and the louder the sound, the more the tone shreds and takes on this very odd quality, as if somebody was turning a mod wheel--- except it's the real AP and the naked ear. And it is known that different frequencies are detected by different parts of the inner ear--- tiny little hairs that stimulate nerve endings; there are many of them, so that 'rasp' could bother some but not all.

The only way you can fix it is, turn down the volume. Sometimes tweaking the EQ settings can get you there. To me, it's a danger sign to stop listening for awhile and let my ears rest.


Jeff,

Sounds like a lot of what you are saying may be true in my case, as I am probably more sensitive to certain frequencies (with the piano tones that sound "raspy") on the CA95. Playing the V-Piano with speakers and a sub woofer does not create these annoying and grating sounds even at louder volume levels.

Lower volume levels are needed on the CA95 plus using the "Mellow 1 & 2" piano presets, and, to alter the "voicing" to mellow. This helps to minimize the fuzzy sounds somewhat and make them bearable to listen to.

Still not sure if the piano doesn't have speaker / soundboard / cabinet vibrations which would add to the murky timbre and fuzziness.

The V-Piano has clarity in its sounds as the CA95 does not.

Also, the EP3 sounds crystal clear... not like the CA95.

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#1983667 - 11/07/12 05:02 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
AshwayGap Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/12
Posts: 36
Loc: Saddleworth UK
The V-Piano has clarity in its sounds as the CA95 does not.

Why don't you just get rid of the CA95 and stick with the V-Piano (which is almost double the price of the Kawai)? You seem to be so unhappy with the CA95 that I cannot understand why you continue with it if the apparent faults bother you so much.

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#1983668 - 11/07/12 05:05 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3704
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
It could be true that some frequencies in the bundle of tones you hear as 'raspy,' are frequencies your ears are more sensitive to, and so they bother you more. I forget the technical name this is called, but one backwards-seeming feature of early hearing loss is, not that you hear less well, but that things sound hyper-loud. One way I hear this, is that the tinnitus doesn't sound like a high-pitched tone anymore, but that the notes sound shredded up, and the louder the sound, the more the tone shreds and takes on this very odd quality, as if somebody was turning a mod wheel--- except it's the real AP and the naked ear. And it is known that different frequencies are detected by different parts of the inner ear--- tiny little hairs that stimulate nerve endings; there are many of them, so that 'rasp' could bother some but not all.

The only way you can fix it is, turn down the volume. Sometimes tweaking the EQ settings can get you there. To me, it's a danger sign to stop listening for awhile and let my ears rest.


Jeff,

Sounds like a lot of what you are saying may be true in my case, as I am probably more sensitive to certain frequencies (with the piano tones that sound "raspy") on the CA95. Playing the V-Piano with speakers and a sub woofer does not create these annoying and grating sounds even at louder volume levels.

Lower volume levels are needed on the CA95 plus using the "Mellow 1 & 2" piano presets, and, to alter the "voicing" to mellow. This helps to minimize the fuzzy sounds somewhat and make them bearable to listen to.

Still not sure if the piano doesn't have speaker / soundboard / cabinet vibrations which would add to the murky timbre and fuzziness.

The V-Piano has clarity in its sounds as the CA95 does not.


PV,
Remind me again why you are still persisting with the CA95 when you seem to prefer the V-Piano for everything? I'm not being smart here, I honestly don't get it.

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#2045109 - 03/08/13 02:54 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Splash Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 6
Hi,
I recently bought a Kawai CN-34 and I heard the same as you!!!! Middle D has a metallic sound clearly and G# too. I hear it very well in Concert Grand and it is atenuated in Mellow Grand.

Regards.

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#2045155 - 03/08/13 04:02 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
emenelton Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/09
Posts: 556
I believe the Kawai's all use the same sample set. My ES6 has some of the same characteristics. For solo playing I typically adjust the voicing 1 step harder than normal and the touch 1 step heavier than normal. I like the way the piano sounds and plays through it's internal speakers like that and I don't notice the metallic sound on those few notes at all.

Somtimes when playing with a combo I'll set the voicing back to normal

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#2281436 - 05/26/14 08:29 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
SomeGuyNamedJayson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 4
Loc: Jackson, Mississippi, USA
It's very interesting coming across this old thread. I've just taken delivery of a Kawai CS10, which is basically a CA95 in a different cabinet, and I've been disappointed to hear the same raspy sounds mentioned by others. I'd been at a loss, but after reading this I believe I might be able to attribute it to my tinnitus.

I'm still not quite sure what to do, though. The only more or less direct competitor to the CS10 is the Roland LX-15e, and I don't know whether I would like it any better or not. Right now, I can alleviate the problem by running Pianoteq 5 or one of my Ivory II pianos through the CS10 sound system, but for the money these instruments cost, I'd like to have one I can just walk up to, turn on, and enjoy (or at least not be irritated by) its default built-in sound. I love how my CS10 looks and feels, and the sound system is great, however. So I'm currently mulling over what to do.
_________________________
Jayson
Beginner who's always searching for the perfect everything

Roland LX-15e | Pianoteq 5 | Ivory II

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#2281440 - 05/26/14 08:33 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9679
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Jayson, may I suggest giving Kawai America's customer support a call, and explaining the situation. The folks there may be able to suggest settings that you can adjust to reduce this tonal characteristic on some notes.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2281650 - 05/27/14 04:46 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: SomeGuyNamedJayson]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: SomeGuyNamedJayson
...So I'm currently mulling over what to do.


Well...use the Studio Grand, or Jazz presets. They sound very different from the first grand piano sound and have been my preferred sounds since my first Kawai (Mp6). They sound more balanced to me than the default concert grand.

Furthermore , there's lots to tweak with the Virtual Designer , EQ , touch curve settings etc. I would suggest using and adjusting your favorite presets to your liking rather than stick to the first grand preset in default factory mode. I'm sure that will help a lot. As for PT5 over the CA/CS - tried it recently again with PT5 , but every time I come back to the build-in sounds. Works better somehow. You could carefully layer some PT presets with the build-in sounds however to create a more natural and longer sustain. I also tried Roland SN sounds over the CA95 and that worked better than using PT IMHO.

By the way , I shortly tested an HP508 recently , but still prefer the nice wooden action of the Kawai with proper hammer mechanics . The AP sound of the Roland is good. All-in-all , I would stick with the CA10 for a while and test presets and tweak the sound to your liking. Don't forget to turn off the reverb by the way - you don't need it with the soundboard acoustics - it gets more in the way, than it adds.

Cherio, J

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#2288877 - 06/12/14 11:26 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Kawai James]
SomeGuyNamedJayson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 4
Loc: Jackson, Mississippi, USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Jayson, may I suggest giving Kawai America's customer support a call, and explaining the situation. The folks there may be able to suggest settings that you can adjust to reduce this tonal characteristic on some notes.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks for that suggestion, James. I will have an afternoon off next week, and will see about giving them a call that day, when I can be on the phone with them and at the piano at the same time.

In the meantime, I've been finding that keeping it set to Jazz Grand is working pretty well for me. Though I have to admit, just to see how it would sound, I just bought a used Roland Integra-7 on eBay, so I can see what its SuperNATURAL grand piano sounds like when run through the CS10's sound system. I'd read someone mention that when doing something like that, the touch curve might need to be adjusted. So I'll have to figure out what that means, and how to adjust it appropriately. laugh

If I'm not careful, I'm gonna wind up with enough virtual pianos to use a different one every day of the month.
_________________________
Jayson
Beginner who's always searching for the perfect everything

Roland LX-15e | Pianoteq 5 | Ivory II

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#2288879 - 06/12/14 11:31 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: JFP]
SomeGuyNamedJayson Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/02/14
Posts: 4
Loc: Jackson, Mississippi, USA
Originally Posted By: JFP
Originally Posted By: SomeGuyNamedJayson
...So I'm currently mulling over what to do.
Furthermore , there's lots to tweak with the Virtual Designer , EQ , touch curve settings etc. I would suggest using and adjusting your favorite presets to your liking rather than stick to the first grand preset in default factory mode. I'm sure that will help a lot. As for PT5 over the CA/CS - tried it recently again with PT5 , but every time I come back to the build-in sounds. Works better somehow. You could carefully layer some PT presets with the build-in sounds however to create a more natural and longer sustain. I also tried Roland SN sounds over the CA95 and that worked better than using PT IMHO.


Some good ideas in there, JFP. Now that you put it that way, it does seem like one of the major advantages of a digital piano is being able to tweak it to perform the way you like it, rather than just having to accept what it does by default. James had mentioned calling Kawai to and talking with them about it, and I'm going to do that

Also, I like the idea you had about layering the built-in sounds with either Pianoteq or Roland SN. I've ordered a used Integra-7, and when that comes in, I'll be able to give that a try.
_________________________
Jayson
Beginner who's always searching for the perfect everything

Roland LX-15e | Pianoteq 5 | Ivory II

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#2289559 - 06/14/14 09:24 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Amateur Jerry Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 65
Loc: Mokena, Illinois
Has the OP looked at the string resonance or touch settings?
_________________________
Czar

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#2289611 - 06/14/14 12:07 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
We'll , it was actually the sound of an FA-08 , but that's basically the same as an Integra.

By the way , I am signing off , of the forum. Enjoyed my time here. Time to move on. All the best !

Cheers, J

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#2289617 - 06/14/14 12:20 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
lophiomys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/01/14
Posts: 138
Loc: Austria, EU
Any special reason, that you are leaving after more than 1000 posts?

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