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#2203051 - 12/26/13 09:56 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Alfredo, again, you lift my post out of one thread and put it in another with a different context.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

All to resurect a thread that all have lost interest in since your last posting eight months ago. That sounds desperate.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be attempting to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.

_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2203080 - 12/26/13 11:05 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: rxd]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

rxd,

Let me quote my post:

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi All,

Not long ago, someone was asking indirectly what pre-tuning meant, and I think I owe the answer: it means preparatory tuning and it refers to this thread and to a part of its contents.

Below, I am tracing a post by rxd, which I think is worth a comment, for better or worse:

Re: Up a 3rd, Up a 3rd, Down a 5th vs 4ths and 5ths Sequences [Re: UnrightTooner]
#2201636 - December 23, 2013 03:11 AM

Originally Posted By: rxd
The trouble with using SBI's is that nobody, but nobody, even those who stake their reputations on tuning by fifths, ever sustains the notes for five seconds while waiting patiently for three beats (or whatever it is) to present themselves. Only to tediously repeat those five seconds with each and every fifth however many times it takes to get it right.

Fifths and octaves or the more compact fifths and fourths was intended for musicians who probably couldn't hear the subtleties of thirds to roughly tune their own instruments before the main event of practicing.

The more sophisticated methods were developed by tuners for whom tuning is the main event.

An RBI can be tuned 'on the fly' with the beat rate established and the pin set with one blow lasting a second or less.

It is transpiring that while most tuners can now hear major thirds, there may be many who cannot hear, or have never thought of using or referencing minor thirds in tuning.

{{At this stage, I had thought that contiguous minor thirds may be too complex but, just spur of the moment, I thought of using A-F# then A-C-D#, then using D#-F# Maj sixth as a check then refining the C but this still will always have one note tuned vicariously}}.

As I said about twelve posts ago, before that memorable graph debacle, it is possible to tune more than half of the temperament octave with direct reference to only the starting note.
If there is a mistake, it can not possibly be cumulative and there are more than enough cross checks between the first half dozen or so notes to ensure complete accuracy and cohesiveness.
Yes, it requires tuners to have a comprehensive knowledge of the temperament scale on decent pianos to accomplish it and it might not be a good teaching method.

Alrhough i don't always use it, this method has seemed to me to be the most logical answer to the age old problem of cumulative errors and the tedious backtracking to correct them.

It was thought necessary, in WT's to use a cumulative series of fifths and octaves to arrive at a progressive harmonic relative purity of the major and minor keys towards the tonal centre. It works well that way but such a progression is totally unnecessary in ET.

I find it incongruous that a proponent of WT's has abandoned tuning exclusively by fourths and fifths whereas at least one of the main voices opposing WT's still argues for this now archaic and unreliable system of fourths and fifths.


By reading that Topic and the above post I get the idea that RBI's and SBI's are still considered separately, as if we could tune "ET" with a sequence that uses either RBI's or SBI's.

If that was the case, if the attempt was to define the single type of interval that - on its own - can avoid cumulative errors... I would not agree, as I would find that approach to be wrong.

And there, about "cumulative errors", I find one more wrong suggestion, namely that a 12_notes "temperament sequence" enables to achieve "ET" across the whole keyboard, as if there was no need to check 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths.

If it is true that some of us have understood the relevance of 12ths and how significant 15ths and the "expansion" of the first octave will be, does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

And, before I forget, in light of some recent comments and video offerings, there are two more issues I would like to deepen on, hopefuly together with you: how the hammer technique (and string's tension) might affect the position/output of partials, and consequently all matchings; secondly, those cases when the pitch/frequency drops, after unisons.

Grandpianoman, probably you will be "recruited" :-)

To All, enjoy these Holydays.

Regards, a.c.
.


And here is your reply:

Originally Posted By: rxd
Alfredo, again, you lift a thread out of one context and put it in another to gain brownie points for your own ends.

Anybody with the least intelligence will plainly see this.

The context of the thread that you quote me from is about temperament only and I try to stick to the topic.

There have been times I have thought of writing about how each move in the temperament affects the whole piano but that was not the topic.

You have tried many times to involve me in this thread and I am still resisting. I don't know what your obsession is.

You seem to be trying to recruit people for your "cause" and you are being publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable.



I hope you re-read the above and understand that:

a) I have already got my "points" and do not need to gain anymore (here);
b) I never think I should evaluate other readers' intelligence, as that (for me) it is simply arrogant;
c) I do understand what the thread I quoted above is about, as well as what you wrote;
d) Times may come, when we manage to focus on theoretical and practical issue as one, despite (or aside) the Topic;
e) You, like any other poster, may be involved in this thread (or any other) on the basis of what you write, provided you can manage your own obsession and be respectful;

f) That's true, it might look like I am recruiting "...people" for a "...cause" of mine; actually, I am peacefully trying to share my experience and some results that may concern the "cause" of ours;

..."...publically rebuffed by all but the most impressionable."

Well, rxd, you decide, but (as mentioned) try to take it easy, nobody here is undermining your authority.

My point: does not the one_octave_temperament sound like an "archaic and unreliable system" to your ears?

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2203176 - 12/26/13 03:50 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Dearest Alfredo.

I have answered the questions in your latest post in my post immediately before it. But I will expand on it. Expand being a poor choice of words as will soon transpire. .

Much of my work consists of tuning the same 15-20 9' grands. Sometimes it is my lot to tune the same 9' piano 12 times in four days. Now, the accepted way to tune a piano is from the middle outwards.

I can choose, for the last 8-9 of those tunings to check the piano from the outer octaves inwards towards the middle. Or to see how it works out from the fifth or sixth octave outwards and inwards

For some kinds of musical situations I will begin with a narrow third octave and tune both ways out from there. I never put in an interval in the temperament range, however large I want make it or whichever range I want to tune it, without considering how it will invert or transfer into all different parts of the instrument.

I have thus luxury. I can either do a touch up tuning or a refinement tuning starting wherever I feel appropriate. If I am on attendance, I can hear how the piano is being used. If I am only called for the tunings, I arrive early so that I can hear a few playbacks. I prefer to call it refinement rather than touch up.

After so long doing this class of work, beatrate memory has to kick in. I would be a fool to ignore it and not use it as another tool.

No tuning is ever scheduled for any more than an hour and sometimes some of the initial tuning is cut short waiting for the piano to arrive, traffic being the way it is. They always arrive reasonably in tune and within pitch parameters, Often coming direct from another engagement or having been properly tuned before despatch from the basement.
An accurate beat rate memory and the ability to work from the most in tune sections of the piano is very helpful when time is limited.

I have never been the sort of person who blindly follows rules so I can't possibly ever get bored with my lot. But I do know that not considering the whole piano when setting the temperament area will slow down the tuning.

What's this to do with other tuners? Most tuners have access to a 48" uprite that has standard beat rates (or a 6' grand) that they can give a half hours attention a few times over a week to practice making refinements to a piano that is already, to all intents and purposes, in tune. Get away from the idea of touch up tuning and think refinement. The more refined the tuning, the more upkeep it takes.

We're talking about fast beating minor thirds being difficult to hear and so many don't use them in tuning but fast beating major thirds in the fifth and sixth octaves should be concentrated on because the are almost always ignored. Perceptive people and fine microphones perceive too fast a M3 in the fifth and sixth and seventh octaves as a screaming in the tone. Most all regular tuners ignore these.

Of course, anything too fast in the upper octaves has its genesis in the temperament octaves so any unevenness there will become intolerable to the finer ear higher into the treble. Any tendency to over stretch will soon be exposed with this test. of course, 17ths must conform and pianos can be very accommodating with the twelfths in the treble. Fifths, of course, definitely tempered but sounding cleaner with all six strings.
My colleagues seem to prefer the single octave purity over the double octave purity whenever there is a choice.
I prefer just a liitle warmth toward the bass but only if I'm scheduled to see the piano again in a few hours.

Tone regulation in the middle octaves is very important. It is harshness there that can give the perception of flatness in the treble. As can habitually listening to over stretched pianos. This can come from early efforts in tuning that are not controlled by a mentor who is not also caught up in over stretching.

If a piano screams out to be stretched!!! it can be done if all the aforementioned parameters are met.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2203606 - 12/27/13 02:33 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi,

Thank you, rxd, for expanding on your practice, I hope that other readers will find that stimulating as I do.

Also in my case, here in London, the time window I am given is one hour and, as you say, many times it gets even less... Anyway, back to my point, it is my opinion that a 12-tones temperament (ET or WT) cannot describe our tunings, for reasons that are mainly related to having/wanting to tune the whole piano.

Leave theoretical issues aside, it is (also) for practical purposes that I would suggest to enlarge the usual "temperament" (and beat-references) to (at least) 19-tones, so including 12ths, and even better if young tuners could have double-octaves as a "check"... Don't you (and All) think that this would be more adherent to our modern practice, that this would enable to keep control of intervals (including 17ths) into all different parts of the instrument?

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (12/27/13 04:29 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
alfredo

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#2264668 - 04/20/14 06:28 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi All,

I would like to address a special acknowledgment to Grandpianoman. With his 'amateur' dedication and will to improve his expertize, GP has been able to point out a dynamic issue, something that (IMO) all professional Piano Tuners should be aware of:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2259968/1/What_causes_3_strings_to_be_fl.html

To All, Happy Easter. a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2265154 - 04/22/14 12:42 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2305
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Well thank you Alfredo.

I could not help but think if one were to have many of these 'flat' notes after tuning, it would not sound ideal.

Next time I tune my pianos, I am going to pay particular attention to this phenomenon, and try to minimize it with the suggestions in that posting.

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