This morning rasied about 6 cents. Pure aural except A4.

Finished in a few minutes.

D4 and G4 raised a little bit after recording.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-sep-2012

The next stage will be the most difficul: getting many pianos to practice.

Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

…"I can hear that. I am preparing for real production, so emphasis on speed."…

That's good. Today we can compare also the two latest samples:

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, it moves a bit much
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: Ok, slow
D4-A4: Ok, moves a bit much, is A4 inverted?

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Fast
A#3-D4: Slow, check A#3-D#4… Ok, check A#3-F4… too narrow (about 3 bps), perhaps raise D#4 and F4 (and D4? and A4?)
B3-D#4: slow (about 6 bps), check B3-E4… Ok, confirm D#4 up
C4-E4: Ok...
C#4-F4: Slow (compare with C4-E4), confirm F4 up
D4-F#4: Ok, pretty tense, confirm D4 up
D#4-G4: Slow, sweet (compare with D4-F#4), check C4-G4… too narrow (about 3 bps?), raise G4
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok, sweeter than previous

Get ready, next time you may try this kind of self-correction.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
.

Hi Weiyan (good morning!),

I can now compensate for the relative little time I had this morning. I was saying "...we can compare also the two latest samples"...; in fact, if we listen to the second last "Thirds" sample,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012

and the last one,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012

it should be evident how A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 have swapped their beat-rates.

Perhaps less evident is the (small) difference (between those two samples), when it comes to C4-E4. If you like, you can exercise your ears ((intonation/flavor) and (beat/speed)) by re-listening and comparing both a few times. At some stage we'll have to be able to manage that.

One more thing... once you refine your middle-octave, expand every time with octaves and check every time 10ths, 12ths and 15ths (going treble) and 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 10ths (towards the bass). So doing you may better balance your ear-training and the overall straining of the pins.

Regards, a.c.
.

It always perceive too slow BR is too fast to hear the BR. Have to learn to trust intonation.

Today's practice. Emphasis on listening intonation on top of beat rates.

Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-sep-2012

Hi Weiyan,

This time, let's listen to 4ths and 5ths in the (flow-chart) sequence order, we will try to spot over-beating intervals and relate them to the thirds progression.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok
A3-E4: Ok, is it inverted? Always get sure...
E4-A4: Too close to just, is E4 inverted?
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a bit much...
D4-A4: Ok, always make sure A4 and D4 are not inverted

A3-E4: Ok...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4...)
B3-F#4: Ok, right now check your 1st third D4-F#4... it is very tense due to B3 (too high in pitch)
F#4-C#4: Too just (always compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4 (*)), check your 2nd third A3-C#4... it is very tense due to C#4 (too high)
C#4-G#4: Too much beating, check your third E4-G#4... it is sour, make sure C#4-G#4 is not inverted
G#4-D#4: Too much beating (compare E4-A4), check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? Their progression is inverted, in fact A3-C#4 is much faster.

Here you could go back and check/see what is wrong... In fact, you want B3-D#4 faster than A3-C#4.

D#4-A#3: Too much beating, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4... A#3-D4 is the slowest (no good)
A#3-F4: As above, check your third C#4-F4... very sweet (about 5 bps)
From D4 tune G4: Too much beating (compare adjacent fourths)
G4-C4: Too much beating, is this inverted?

"Join" C4 with F4: Too wide (about 7 bps)

(*): A3-D4, C#4-F#4 and E4-A4 must be in progression

It happened that the initial fourths B3-E4 and C#4-F#4 (too just) have pushed C#4 very high; the next D#4-G#4 and A#3-D#4 (too wide) have somehow balanced that.

..."Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change."...

Weiyan, you are doing well already. Considering intonation, you could let me know...

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

...Which thirds sound strange/wrong for you?

Regards, a.c.
.

Thank you.

I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR.

I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths. Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct.

Following is sequence I remembered.
A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4



A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.

Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

..."I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR."...

Never mind, now consider that all intervals are related to each other, in time you'll be able to mentally draw a "beat-map" and administrate those relationships in the strictest way.

..."I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths."...

Don't worry, you are not alone... bi-chords (only two notes played together/simultaneously) have a fairly large leeway, meaning that our ear may accept, say, F3-A3 at a beat-rate from (anything close to) zero to perhaps 10 bps. It is only when we (and orchestras and chorus) play complex chords that intervals need to be tempered into a (complex) whole.

..."Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct."...

I too need to confirm that, and I do that with my tuning hammer: I move it either drop-wise (anti-clock) or raise-wise (clock-wise) and see if the beat gets faster or slower. For example, if a fifth is on the narrow side, ACW will produce some (more) beating, CW will make it still.

..."Following is sequence I remembered.

A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

- . - . - . -

Ok, perhaps you can look at it this way:

A4 -> A3 // A3-> E4 -> A4 // -> A3 -> D4 -> A4

The above five intervals represent the basic relation (and reference), even if you need to further correct them subsequently (*).

E4->B3, cannot be slower than A3-D4, not faster than E4-A4
B3->F#4, cannot be narrower than A3-E4, not "juster" than D4-A4
F#4->C#4, wider than A3-D4, less wide than E4-A4
C#4->G#4, very very close to D4-A4, a "hair" narrower
G#4->D#4, very very close to E4-A4, a hair slower
D#4->A#3, very very close to A3-D4, a hair wider
A#3->F4, very very close to A3-E4, a hair less-narrow

Now tune G4 from D4, very very close to G#4->D#4, a hair slower;

and tune C4 from G4, in-between B3-F#4 and C#4-G#4. Check C4-F4, possibly in-between B3-E4 and C#4-F#4.

(*): Tuning is dynamic, so keep memory of any (due) approximation, actually go "by" approximations and solve them along the way. As for "thirds relations", refer to our previous post.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

You wrote:

A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.

- . - . - . -

This is what I hear:

A3-C#4: Fast, beats are in a flow
A#3-D4: Slow, about 6 bps
B3-D#4: As above
C4-E4: Too tense
C#4-F4: Slow, about 4 bps
D4-F#4: Too tense
D#4-F#4: Tense and close to correct
E4-G#4: Tense, close to correct
F4-A4: Sweet.

Good for you, your estimations were mostly correct.

Regards, a.c.

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Following the tuning sequence to check thirds beat rates seems easier to correct tuning. Eg., if A3-C#4 not in question, then check C#4-G#4.

When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction. Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm directon.

I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color.

Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-sep-2012

Hi Weiyan,

Good job indeed. Although thirds are not all precisely progressive, you have managed to make some adjacent thirds very similar, which is good.

Let's listen together.

The base:

A3-A4: Nice, it may be inverted
A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-A4: It moves too little. Two main possibilities: first p., E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow; second p., E4 wide! and A3-A4 correct
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a lot (about 2 bps, make it about 1 bps)...
D4-A4: It moves too much (almost 3 bps), it should sound almost still. Perhaps (first p.) E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow

Following the (Flow-chart) sequence order:

A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4)
B3-F#4: It beats too much (about 2 bps, it should beat less than A3-E4, more than D4-A4), right now check your 1st third D4-F#4… it is nice/sweet, it must be nice/tense... a "hair" difference that you will mature in time. Here also check your first 6th A3-F#4, you want to develop the taste.

F#4-C#4: Too just (compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4), check your 2nd third A3-C#4 and compare with D4-F#4… D4-F#4 is sweeter, not in progression, so I would quickly go back and improve previous intervals.

C#4-G#4: Nice, still, check again adjacent D4-A4... very different, I would go back and improve the base;

G#4-D#4: Too much beating, check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? B3-D#4 is sweeter, their progression is inverted;

D#4-A#3: Quite still, check adjacent A3-D4... very different, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4...

A#3-F4: Nice, check your third C#4-F4… Ok/slow (about 7 bps), compare with D4-F#4, this is sweeter/slower;

From D4 tune G4: Ok, compare the other (adjacent) fourths and evaluate their progression;
G4-C4: compare with (and check) the other fifths, C4-F4 (too still) and adjacent fourths, C4-E3 (too tense) and adjacent thirds.

You wrote:

..."When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction."...

That's good.

..."Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm direction."...

Ok, when tuning the base, make sure A3-A4 and A3-D4 are wide, make A3-E4 very slowly (narrow) beating and E4-A4 sensibly faster than A3-D4.

..."I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color."...

I too like doing that and find it useful.

..."Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production."...

That's ok, try not to hesitate... Tune your note, compare quickly with other available intervals, do not aim at "static" perfection, get close from above and ready to improve all (improvable) points you could memorize.

Buona serata, a.c.
.

Mute the piano and listen again. I can hear the A3-D4 beating to fast indeed. And most intervals I can hear. It same as what I heard during last tuning session. It obviously I don't trust my ear enough.

Will tune again tomorrow and further investigate to A3-A4 to confirm if its too wide or too narrow.

Regards,
Weiyan

HI,

Not easy to touch up last tuning. All notes except A4 had moved.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-20-sep-2012

Thank you.
Regards
Weiyan

Edit:

A#3-F4 beats too fast,
B3-F#4 too fast,

B3-E4 too slow,
C#4-G#4 too fast

Hi,

Some correction made.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds1-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths1-20-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths1-20-sep-2012

Thak you.

Hi Weiyan,

I'm travelling around for work...

About your self-revision (above):

A#3-F4 beats too fast,.......Correct
B3-F#4 too fast,.......Correct

B3-E4 too slow,.......Correct
C#4-G#4 too fast,.......Non correct

If you like, please revise and comment your (recorded) thirds, in terms of "slow/slower than...", "fast/faster than...".

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012

I'll be back soon.

Buon pomeriggio, a.c.
.

Thank you.

Hi Weiyan,

Let's listen together to the last recorded thirds:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-20-sep-2012

A3-C#4: Too slow (about 3 bps)
A#3-D4: Better than previous, too sweet (about 6 bps)
B3-D#4: slower than previous
C4-E4: Very very tense, too fast
C#4-F4: sweet, too slow (about 4 bps)
D4-F#4: Ok, sour, fast
D#4-G4: Sweet, slower than previous
E4-G#4: Very slow and slower than previous
F4-A4: Very tense

Perhaps you can compare the 20-sep-thirds with the 15-sep-thirds:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

A3-C#4: Fast, beats are in a flow
A#3-D4: Slow, about 6 bps
B3-D#4: As above
C4-E4: Too tense
C#4-F4: Slow, about 4 bps
D4-F#4: Too tense
D#4-G4: Tense and close to correct
E4-G#4: Tense, close to correct
F4-A4: Sweet.

If you like, you may let me know what you hear. In particular, you may compare and notice how A3-C#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4 and F4-A4 have changed, thinking about color/tension/taste/texture.

Regards, a.c.

Edit: Typo correction... D#4-F#4 (m3) into D#4-G4 (M3).

Before review your last post, I tune it again.

The octave I use M3-M10 / m3-M6 test to make sure its at wide side.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-27-sep-2012

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-27-sep-2012
A#3-D4, B3-D#4 too sweet.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-27-sep-2012
A#4-D#4, D#4-G4 too perfect.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-27-sep-2012
C4-G4, C#4-G#4 sounds strange.

The intuition on beats and intonation seems build up gradually.

Hi Weiyan,

A brief comment before I go out for work.

Try to relate beats with the movement of your tuning hammer: in other words, while turning the hammer... do not stop the sound, keep your fingers down onto the keyboard and listen to the interval, how the interval (and the beat-rate) can change.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-27-sep-2012
A#4-D#4, D#4-G4 too perfect.

In general, stay closer to "just", try to avoid fourths beating like A#3-D#4 (very very fast! Inverted?), C4-F4 (fast, about 3 bps) and D#4-G#4 (very fast, about 6 bps).

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-27-sep-2012
A#3-D4, B3-D#4 too sweet.

Yes, your comment is correct; you may now compare A3-C#4, C4-E4, C#4-F4 and F4-A4... let me know what you hear.

Have a nice afternoon, a.c.

Edit: added F4-A4, which may be compared with those other thirds.

Good morning Alfredo,

Just listened directly to the piano.

A#3-D#4, Af-F4, D#4-G#4 are ultra fast.

A#3-C4 very slow.
B3-D#4 very fast compare to last interval.
C4-E4 same are little bit slower than previous last interval.

Its easier to hear after rest.

Regards,
Weiyan

Hi,

Today I practice slow move the hammer to listen to beat rate change. Not easy to keep the steady slow move. Only approach correct pitch from upper side. If over shoot, raise and tune again.

Today I tuned with slow pull. Hearing the br change while pushing the hammer. After recording, tried some interval with LH, its easier than RH. Law of gravity works.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.


Happy Mid-Autumn(Moon Cake) Festival
Weiyan

Hi Weiyan,

I'm very glad because you've done a nice job! Your thirds progression is much smoother, you are refining your tunings indeed.

Insist on making sure A3-A4 and A3-D4 are on the right side and now expand your mid-octave all across your piano. A wider intervals beat-map will help you refine also the original octave.

Today I'm visiting my father...

Thank you for your wishes, have a nice sunday,

Alfredo
.

Hi Alfredo,

My ear open suddenly, and hammer skill improved. I can hear the purity of fifth and fourth. Today I raised 2hz and tuned again, I can refined it to an acceptable thirds progression.

Tune the fifths near pure, fourths begins from 1bps then progress to fast BR. Finally refine A4. The octave is not as wide as I think.

What's next should be more practice.

Also thanks to Kamin(Issac)'s encouragement.

Best wishes to you and your family!
Weiyan

Hi Weiyan,

I know exactly what you mean, that happened to me too and I believe that our skills "grow" by going through various degrees (steps?) of awareness.

Let me know when you are ready to revise your last post, by listening more attentively to your last recording.

Regards, a.c.
.

Good afternoon.

The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps.

A3-D4 OK, 1bps
D4-A4 > < 2bps

The A3-A4 too narrow.

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK
A#3-D4 little slower
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression.

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth
C4-F4 too slow
C#4F#4 Slow
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok
E4-A4 1bps, too slow

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3-F4, C4-F4
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough.

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning.
A3-E4: 0.5bps
E4A4: 2bps
A3-D4: 1bps,
D4-A4: near pure

Thank you.
Weiyan

Tuned again.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourth-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-oct-2012

Have a nice weekend.
Weiyan

Good Morning:

This Saturday morning, adjusted F4 and G4 to make A#3-F4, C4-G4 purer.

Listen direct to the piano, A3-E4 too noisy. May due to instability. Corrected.

Have a nice weekend.
Weiyan

Hi Weiyan,

I hope you could enjoy the Mid Autumn festival and National Day. How is that celebrated in Honk Kong?



Right now I could only listen to these samples, it seems to me that you have progressed consistently. Hope I can soon be more precise.



Soon I am going to check the above too. I am very glad you could produce that effort.

Have a nice Sunday, a.c.
.

Hi Weiyan,

Below is your own analysis, my comment follows the line in brackets.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-sep-2012
A#3-D#4 too just.
Beat rate change from D#4-G#4 to E4-A4 not smooth. Don't know how to correct it.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-sep-2012
Oh, E3-A4 beats too fast.

..."The Mid Autumn festival and National Day holiday is over.

The Base:

A3-E4 too fast, around 1.5bps.(yes, perhaps 2 bps)
E4-A4 too slow, 1.5bps. (yes, perhaps even slower)
A3-D4 OK, 1bps (correct)(Edit(*))
D4-A4 > < 2bps (hmmm... much slower?)

The A3-A4 too narrow. (yes)

Thirds
A3-D#4 9 bps, OK (yes, very little slow)
A#3-D4 little slower (yes)
B3-D#4, 8 bps, slower (I'm not sure, then I would simply check 4ths and 5th on B3 and D#4)
C4-E4, seems ok, but not accurate estimation since previous interval is too slow.
C#4-F4 same as previous interval, too slow (yes)
D4-F#4, D#4-G4, E4-G#4, F4-A4, over impression is too fast, but have progression. (yes, but D#4-G4 is sweeter than the others)

For the time being I have to stop here...

Regards, a.c.

(*)Edit: In general, it is better to stay a "hair" higher, in consideration of the pitch tendency (drop). Many times, you will be able to "hair" correct any interval by playing a Forte. We want to anticipate "hysteresis".

Hi Weiyan,

Second half, my comment (in brackets) follows yours:

Fourths
A3-D4 1.5Bps, too fast (I hear less than 1 bps)
A#3-D#4 too slow, beats like fifth (yes)
B3-E4 too slow, beats like fifth (yes)
C4-F4 too slow (?)
C#4F#4 Slow ((?) - perhaps this is correct, play the interval a little longer)
D4-G4 > 2bps, too fast (yes)
D#4-G#4, 1.5bps, may ok (slow)
E4-A4 1bps, too slow (yes)

Improvement
Raise E4, improve C4-E4, A3-E4, B3-E4
Drop A#3, improve A#4-D4, A#3-D#4
Drop B3, improve B3-D#4, B3-E4,
Raise F4, improve D#3 (you meant C#4)-F4, C4-F4 (or leave C4-F4(?) and drop C#4(?)...check C#4-G#4...)
Raise D4, improve D4-F#4, D4-G4 (yes)
Drop G4, improve D$4-G4, D4-G4 (hmmm... check C4-G4...)
Raise A4, improve A3-E4, E4-A4, making A3-A4 wide enough. (yes)

Next time should fine tune the base before rest of the tuning. (yes, fine and jet temporary)
A3-E4: 0.5bps (even slower)
E4A4: 2bps (even faster)
A3-D4: 1bps,(or a "hair" higher)
D4-A4: near pure (yes!)

- . - . - . -

Well, you have done a very good job!

Next:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourth-5-oct-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-oct-2012

Regards, a.c.