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#1972075 - 10/11/12 10:38 PM Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds?
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2718
As for the Kawai CA95's piano sounds:

Have determined there is in fact a raspy, buzzing-like, metallic sound on several notes (just above middle C), C#, G#, A, C#, E, as altering many of the various "Virtual Technician" settings doesn't do anything to change it. The only piano preset that mutes/masks this fairly well is the "Mellow Grand" preset.

Also, this raspy (metallic) sound is most prominent with the default "Concert Grand" preset, and, is slightly less so with the "Concert Grand 2" preset. It is a very annoying and grating sound, although I don't particularly like having to compromise the settings to the "Mellow Grand" preset only, to avoid it.

And, I just confirmed that these buzzing notes sound the same whether listening to the speakers, or, through headphones. So, the fuzzy sounds are innate to the presets themselves, as it is not a soundboard / cabinet vibration.

Has anyone else encountered this?

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#1972082 - 10/11/12 10:50 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9675
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, given that you are hearing the same sound though both the instrument's speaker system and headphones, I expect the characteristic you are hearing was also present on the original Kawai EX concert grand when sampled.

I'm afraid there is not a great deal I can advise, beyond selecting a voice that uses different piano samples, as you have tried.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1972086 - 10/11/12 10:58 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2718
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
pv88, given that you are hearing the same sound though both the instrument's speaker system and headphones, I expect the characteristic you are hearing was also present on the original Kawai EX concert grand when sampled.

I'm afraid there is not a great deal I can advise, beyond selecting a voice that uses different piano samples, as you have tried.

Kind regards,
James
x


@James,

I agree with you that what I am hearing are the sampled sounds for those presets, as the original "Mellow Grand" setting is the only one I have found that minimizes (or, almost eliminates) the metallic buzzing of the strings.

Looks like I will be playing the EP3 instead, which has great clarity (in all of the piano sounds) as it displays none of that metallic nonsense.

My cheap Kawai EP3 sounds a lot better than the CA95!

CA95 is eek & EP3 is thumb

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#1972148 - 10/12/12 01:00 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
I will jump in ...

My hearing is not 100%, but I can add something to this.

I tried the notes you mentioned. Yes, they have a certain underlying sound that I can (barely) hear but find it hard to describe. It sounds most to me like a cardboard box being slid across a waxed concrete floor. Very hard to discern, but once heard, it is there. After the initial impulse of sound, the whoosh appears and remains until the sound level is at 20-30% volume.

I sensed this whoosh on more keys than you mentioned. For example, the A below Middle C does not have it. And about half the notes from Middle C thru E an octave away has this low level sound.

Were someone to ask me, my two cents is this. I would look first to how the sound is rendered in the Firmware instead of the Kawai Ex Grand recordings.

I used headphones only. Sennheiser HD280. Volume at 50 and 65%. Key press at a medium feel. While playing two note chords, I could not hear the whoosh.

+++

I used to own a Ford Expedition. The four air inlets in the dashboard were chromed. The remainder of the dashboard was some very handsome plastic of a tan/gray/camel color, I hated them I even went to the Dealer and asked the Parts guys if these were available in normal plastic colors. They were not. After another 175k miles, I sold the car but them chrome thingies aggravated me every now and then when I drove it.

In the overall picture, these swooshes are inconsequential. I view this anomaly the same way as the inlets. It is there. But barely. The other great features of this piano far outweigh a swoosh I will rarely hear unless searching for it.

Thanks ...
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#1972316 - 10/12/12 01:38 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
I wonder that there are no complaints for the CA65, which I expected to use same technique aside of the spruce soundboard ?

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#1972377 - 10/12/12 04:14 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Justplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 238
I haven't heard anything like this in any with any of the sounds. I have heard a hammer whoosh that is quite pleasing and sounds like I'm playing my grand, but even that is so very slight that I wouldn't complain.

I have what you might call, hypersensitive hearing. I can hear the difference of a thick, thin, bright, rich, colorful tone and the Kawai 95 is a very, very rich sound.

I love the sound, and am hooked on the Concert Grand sound and the warm strings are my favorite. I sometimes layer them, and sometimes don't.

The only time I had an issue with the CA95 was when there was a cord in the back of the piano vibrating against the soundboard. I tacked the cord to the wall and it sounds as fine and pure as before.



Still in love with it.

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#1972378 - 10/12/12 04:24 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Justplay]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Only time i've had an issue with a key noise is similar to justplay... the soundboard was doing its thing and my sunday paper was vibrating.... apart from that no issues. very happy.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1972418 - 10/12/12 06:33 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ozzienovice Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/09
Posts: 37
Loc: Victoria, Australia
No problems here on my CA65. Although I did find the standard presets of "hall" for Concert Grand 1 & 2 a bit "spacey" - too much echo, so I changed them to "room" and saved them.

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#1972426 - 10/12/12 06:58 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Yes, i changed mine to lounge...
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1972524 - 10/12/12 11:18 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2718
Still trying to figure out what it is I am hearing in the main "Concert Grand" sound that continues to be grating on the ears. This raspy / fuzzy sound could be in the speakers / soundboard / or, maybe even a cabinet vibration.

The Kawai EP3 appears to have far better piano sounds, with realistic live ambience in the reverb effects, and, superior speaker projection. So higher prices don't add up if the cheaper EP3 is able to outplay the "flagship" model.

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#1972532 - 10/12/12 11:37 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3695
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
This raspy / fuzzy sound could be in the speakers / soundboard / or, maybe even a cabinet vibration.



Except it's happening when you use headphone and the speakers/soundboard are not functioning...

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#1972554 - 10/13/12 12:37 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9675
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: pv88
Still trying to figure out what it is I am hearing in the main "Concert Grand" sound that continues to be grating on the ears. This raspy / fuzzy sound could be in the speakers / soundboard / or, maybe even a cabinet vibration.


May I remind you of your initial post:

Originally Posted By: pv88
And, I just confirmed that these buzzing notes sound the same whether listening to the speakers, or, through headphones. So, the fuzzy sounds are innate to the presets themselves, as it is not a soundboard / cabinet vibration.


Surely you're contradicting yourself?

Originally Posted By: pv88
The Kawai EP3 appears to have far better piano sounds...


Different, yes. Better, definitely not.

The EP3's piano samples are rather dated compared to those of any other recent Kawai (i.e. anything with 88-key sampling), and when compared to the latest HI-XL sounds utilised by the CA95/CA65 it's absolutely no contest.

Originally Posted By: pv88
...with realistic live ambience in the reverb effects...


The EP3's reverb/effects processor was reasonably good when initially developed, but it's easily outclassed by the far more powerful tone generator used by the CA95/CA65. There's absolutely no way the EP3's processor could handle all the modelling and resonance effects, high resolution reverbs, and 256 notes polyphony offered by the CA95/CA65.

Originally Posted By: pv88
and, superior speaker projection.


The EP3's speakers project upwards, largely due to the design of the instrument - this is true of almost all slab-type digital pianos. The CA95 speakers project down towards the floor, up through the top, and out towards the player's upper body. In addition, the instrument's soundboard speaker produces sound in all direction, but largely out the rear and front.

Sure, the EP3's speaker system is pretty good for a portable instrument, I agree. However, to suggest that its sound projection is superior to that of a CA95 is ridiculous.

Originally Posted By: pv88
So higher prices don't add up if the cheaper EP3 is able to outplay the "flagship" model.


Well, I doubt many would agree, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Kind regards.
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1972624 - 10/13/12 05:38 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
pv - do you think it might be time to call your dealer and see if you can exchange the CA-95 for something else? I saw your post on the other thread about you preferring the action on the EP3 to CA-95. With that and the issues you believe you are experiencing with the CA's piano sound it would seem that this has not been a successful purchase. Perhaps the store would credit you and you could choose something else?
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1972627 - 10/13/12 06:16 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2718
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
pv - do you think it might be time to call your dealer and see if you can exchange the CA-95 for something else?


Even with the issue of the grating "Concert Grand" sound, and, the pedals being too far forward, I am trying (like the devil) to adapt to these CA95 defects with compromise:

1) By choosing a different piano preset, and, avoiding the main "Concert Grand" sound, like a plague.

2) To sit in a more unconventional (and, less comfortable) fashion to use the sustain pedal.

These problems are far more tolerable than having the sustain pedal resonance issue on the Casio AP-620, and, the loose pedals (with side-to-side play) on the Kurzweil Mark Pro 3i. Good riddance to Casio & Kurzweil, as there were obviously better options to be had.

The Kawai EP3 is undoubtedly the best portable digital I have ever played (bar none) as it rivals boards costing several times as much.

The V-Piano still sits at the top (on a special pedestal of its own) since nothing else out there can match it.

We all **** our pants in the end, whether we own pianos, or, not.

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#1972631 - 10/13/12 06:43 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9675
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: pv88
We all **** our pants in the end, whether we own pianos, or, not.


I don't understand this.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1972633 - 10/13/12 06:51 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 864
pv88, your recent posts have an odd ring (not to say a raspy metallic sound) to them... One might even think you're out on some skew crusade. I'll second EssBrace's suggestion - if your V-Piano isn't enough for you and you really want a console in addition, why don't you look for one you are satisfied with?

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#1972701 - 10/13/12 10:06 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3695
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
PV, you haven't really made one convincing argument for why you would persist with your CA95. You pretty much state that you are delighted with your V-piano in most respects. Given the CA95 is about as sophisticated as console pianos get and it still isn't good enough, I'd say it's time to cut your losses and go back to the V-piano. There is little to be gained by starting a new thread every week about something that you don't like and can't be changed. The fact is, it just doesn't seem to be a good match for you.

Question: you seem pretty well off - why don't you get a nice acoustic piano?

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#1972755 - 10/13/12 12:50 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
I tried today at the dealer the CA95 and the CA65, I had special attention to the keys C# G# A.... Nothing special to report, but I also can note exclude that there is some special noise to hear. There was a slight difference which I could not really fix during the time of testing. There were different pianos in exercise, which were mixing with my play. May be at a quite environment the results would have been different.

Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well. If its not only on the two instruments, more reports during the next day should appear. It could also be falsified or verified by some software like TuneLabPro, which is free to a certain extent. May be also DPBSD could help. There are experts here in the forum who could assess the posiblity of DPBSD better then me.

pv88 would you mind to try to analyse this raspy sound with TuneLabPro, eg. to oberserve the differences for the spectrum between the tone C# and C ?

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#1972773 - 10/13/12 01:58 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: ando]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: ando
PV, you haven't really made one convincing argument for why you would persist with your CA95. You pretty much state that you are delighted with your V-piano in most respects. Given the CA95 is about as sophisticated as console pianos get and it still isn't good enough, I'd say it's time to cut your losses and go back to the V-piano. There is little to be gained by starting a new thread every week about something that you don't like and can't be changed. The fact is, it just doesn't seem to be a good match for you.

Question: you seem pretty well off - why don't you get a nice acoustic piano?


+1 thumb
_________________________
Kevin L. Spindler
Early Keyboard Instruments
Stonington, CT
Harpsichords & Clavichords
Custom Instruments Built to Order
Rebuilding, Repair & Restoration
http://www.facebook.com/kevin.spindler.129

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#1972858 - 10/13/12 05:39 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: KLSinCT]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Hi, I am an CA51 owner and am considering to update now to CA95 I repeatedly visited a big showrooom to make a few hour sound tests.

Trying out most of the leading instrument competitors of Kawai, Roland, Yamaha, Casio and some Kurzweil resulted for me the clear preference for the Kawai CA95 (even if I disregard budget concerns).

(Subjectively I felt a very convincing mechanical superiority of the of the GF action just as overwhelming, along with a great soundboard response. The price premium of 1K EUR for CA95 seemed just justified, being the sound clarity of CA65 not on the same level, even through heaphones I felt a little difference. There are some remaining questions though how the soundboard and old MIDI/3sensor will support or compromise my SW-pianos and SW-Harpsichords ...)

However during my visit in the showroom built up a small ad hoc discussion about an observation of a just present professional of some (for him allegedly very disturbing) noise he described as an "airy" or "puffing" by-tone out of the speakers of both CA63 and CA93. He attributed it to the speakers or amplifier in the sound producing path. He was able to hear it consistently with headphones as well (albeit somewhat weaker) - he didn't mention anything "metallic" character of the noise though.

My 55 yr. old hearing abilities are enough to hear out subtle pitch differences, but obviously are not sensitive enough anymore to detect all subtle dynamical nuances. Or my ears were possibly just tired after having many hours of car driving and in a noisy show-room, so I cannot be more specific to the problem.

I have been followed all of the present discussions here about CA95/95, let-off behavior with three sensors and pedal depth distance etc... So I would be very interested to read a satisfying conclusion to these noise issues. (The above complaints all seem to refer to very consinstently reproduceable and measurable issues, if there are some really in it at all.)

cheering: Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1972866 - 10/13/12 05:59 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Temperament]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2426
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: temperament
I have been followed all of the present discussions here about CA95/95, let-off behavior with three sensors and pedal depth distance etc... So I would be very interested to read a satisfying conclusion to these noise issues. (The above complaints all seem to refer to very consinstently reproduceable and measurable issues, if there are some really in it at all.)

cheering: Attila


There are no "issues". It is what it is. The sounds are how Kawai made them. If there's something you don't like about those sounds don't buy the piano! I really don't think there's a fault with this new series of CA instruments. What is being described is a characteristic.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1972870 - 10/13/12 06:14 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Temperament]
McBuster Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/12/11
Posts: 275
Loc: St Paul Minnesota USA
temperament

From my previous post

"In the overall picture, these swooshes are inconsequential. It is there. But barely. The other great features of this piano far outweigh a swoosh I will rarely hear unless searching for it."

Change that to -never- hear ...

This anomaly is so hard to hear, and I am so --satisfied-- with the CA95 after owning a CA63 and CA93. Go play one somewhere, for as long as you want. I believe you will find it to be a very satisfying experience. I know I certainly do.

I look at this a bit differently. In very rough numbers. Let's say the Dealer buys a CA95 wholesale for $2500US. Ok ... Freight is about $200 and that brings the price down to $2300. The Distributor in Calif brings it in for $1800. Let's say the freight from Thailand is another $200 per. So that means Kawai is putting that out the door for about $1600. At a Cost of Sales of 65%, the Gross Profit might be $450 and actually designing, testing, producing this piano for maybe $1150.

What a Bargain this is ... A decent sounding unit that looks great by a company that only makes pianos ...

They have put together a very nice package indeed.
_________________________
Jon ...

Kawai CA95
Sailor, Consultant, Gourmet, Dreamer

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#1972895 - 10/13/12 07:25 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Thx, Jon,

I personally share the same positive enthusiasm about the CA95 as a product with You. If we consider, how much "Mass of Cumulative Human Creative Effort" could the Pharaos in ancient Egypt have reclaimed as their own with their Pyramids compared to how much we do while owning a single digital piano, it is in our favour by a large margin...

However a SW product must not necessarily be considered as fully completed and freezed in an "it is" status. Earlier I had the chance to participate a little in the process of developing SW pianos (and SW in general as a profession), so is very conceivable and nothing of outrageous for me to discover some issues in such an early phase of the product lifecycle. Such issues should be analysed and fixed/improved and if it is done in a transparent manner it is equally good for us consumer and for the fabricant as well. KAWAI put out some updates for their earlier models in the past and I think it will be no different with the present models - we can hope that we get so much improvement as possible packed in them.

Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1972898 - 10/13/12 07:39 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: McBuster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: McBuster
Let's say the Dealer buys a CA95 wholesale for $2500US. Ok ... Freight is about $200 and that brings the price down to $2300. The Distributor in Calif brings it in for $1800. Let's say the freight from Thailand is another $200 per. So that means Kawai is putting that out the door for about $1600.


Well, I think if shipping on these was that high, they would just locate their factories here and then place them next to big population centers. They don't, so I have to conclude that transportation/distribution costs are much lower than you are assuming.

I don't mean to take away too much from your point. The modern economy is amazing, but we can only get an idea of how well an industry is serving us by comparing to other industries we are familiar with: computers, furniture, appliances...all can be purchased for so little that if you started breaking down their costs generously (as you have) they appear to have to pay us to take their stuff.

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#1972912 - 10/13/12 08:26 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4441
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...Now, pv88 and McBuster have reported this special raspy sound. If its there, some trained musican should be able to hear it as well..."

pv88, ears, and their ability to hear, are not identical for the whole human population of Earth. Some resonances or interference patterns can be created in the ear itself, and anyway, hearing actually takes place in the brain. Also, though they are short, the nerves which conduct the sound information to the brain can influence what makes it to their destination. Additionally, there are some drugs (even OTC ones) that can make a problem for hearing, especially if they're taken in combination and the effects are added together.

It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.

You might visit an audiologist to have your hearing evaluated, or do some online research to learn how you can protect your hearing for the long term. Anyway, it doesn't seem that this is the right keyboard for you, and you would be wise to undo the deal, if you can. If that's not possible, you might use the keyboard as a MIDI controller to control Ivory or another outboard sound.

If you can narrow it down to certain frequencies which bother you (they might be among the upper partials; even ultrasonic or subsonic sound energy can trigger an effect in the hearing), you might see if a notch filter or comb filter gives you relief. Some people hear these effects when playing acoustic piano. It's not something that a tuner can fix or that changing the room's acoustics can help, and of course they typically accuse the piano. But, the solution is: a different model of piano.
_________________________
Clef


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#1972989 - 10/14/12 01:54 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Wow Jeff, that is a great contribution. Brain- ear interaction and human hearing defects should be taken into acount even if McBuster and temprament reports sound to point to a similar problem as pv88 has. Now, even more I am convinced that this problem should be analyzed by acoustic experts and audiologist support, using some technical equipment to qualify and quantify this effect, but may be there are more simple problems causing the defect, like none well controlled mechanical boundary conditions on the spruce soundboard, causing at different notes different modes with different soundboard boundary motion. Or even there could be more simple effects, like some interaction with some furniture resonances in the room the ca95 is operated. This could be rather simply excluded by changing the position of the piano for the furniture interactions. Do not know how the sound board is fixed and don't want to give some advice to work on it, but a Kawai technician could have a look on it.

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#1972992 - 10/14/12 02:02 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2718
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
There are no "issues". It is what it is. The sounds are how Kawai made them. If there's something you don't like about those sounds don't buy the piano! I really don't think there's a fault with this new series of CA instruments. What is being described is a characteristic.


@EssBrace,

Thanks for your reply, as it is true there are no real "faults" to be found. It is in my perceptions of a few details that has colored things a bit.

I now have come to the realization that the piano has just a few notes (in the "Concert Grand" preset) that I am perceiving a raspy / metallic sound, and, if I choose "Concert Grand 2" or another preset, it is minimized or negated. It is obvious that many of the piano presets have bright tones, to begin with.

Perhaps I have been too hard on myself in the search for perfect sounding samples in a digital, which apparently does not exist. I am now just enjoying the CA95 for what it is, a very good representation of the Kawai EX Concert Grand.

The CA95 is still one of the best digital console models to be had.

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#1972995 - 10/14/12 02:27 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: Jeff Clef]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2718
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
It struck me that what you are describing sounds very like what some people hear in the early stages of hearing loss, or in a kind of tinnitus. Some cases of tinnitus are not a steady tone or buzz or clashing of gears--- though maybe most are--- but a shreddy, buzzing, rasping or crunching noise which is only heard when certain tones of sound are heard. How they're perceived also depends on how loud the sound is.


@Jeff,

It is very interesting that you mentioned tinnitus, as I do in fact have it myself, in the form of a very high pitched ringing that is always present, although in normal circumstances I do not notice it as much during the day, but only at times when things are very quiet, or, at night. Have had this ailment since I was very young as it was more than likely a result of the middle ear infections I had as a kid since I used to swim a lot. Had to undergo surgery to have the ears drained a few times and had small tubes put into the ear drums to relieve excessive fluid, etc.

As for the raspy notes in the CA95, I think I have narrowed it down to the samples themselves (ruling out any speaker / soundboard / cabinet vibrations), as mentioned in my other reply above, to EssBrace.

My search for perfection has ended with digital pianos I now own, as I should really get down to the business of enjoying them for what they are... fine musical instruments, to be played.

Also, for everyone that misunderstood my perceptions of the sounds I hear in the CA95, including the other pedal depth issue, my apologies on that.

Don't let my "critical" reviews get in the way of enjoying your pianos, as I tend to point out things that may not be an issue with others.

Extra note:

I think I can lay these perceived issues to rest now, as the CA95 is a great instrument that should be enjoyed.

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#1973004 - 10/14/12 03:01 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: pv88]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
pv 88 Congratulations to you that you are finally satisfied. I have read you last point and knowing about the sound of CA95, I can understand very well. The special on the Kawai sound for me is, that there is some base tone, then less in the middle (probably 2nd and 4th harmonics), but at the higher end a lot of harmonics, probably much more then on Yamaha and Roland pianos. Would be interesting to see some spectrum analysis. But this would well explain some interferences which are dominant.

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#1973034 - 10/14/12 06:26 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Raspy metallic sounds? [Re: ap55]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I have been very extensively investigating the effect of temperaments (historical and self constructed) on subjective musical perception in the past 3-4 years, and have so much experience with elusive physical perception issues, that I am now very catious at judging some phenomena. It is most subjective and can change dramatically with time. What you percieve as disturbing on one day (overtones; 3d interval difference from the ideal), you can hear the same phenomenon as real or spicy and inspiring tension on another one.

Once you get accustumed to one flavor (temperament, instrument sound), it can become boring with time or the opposite, you cannot swap to another one easily.
If you focus to the details, You can very easily get obsessed with nuances (I've got).

Once I have heared the anecdote about the phsysicits Helmholtz, who while intensively working on the theory of overtones complained that he couldn't go to a concert because he wasn't be able to hear any music but the overtones only...

Than there is the effect of tiredness: if you are tired, your perception can be compromised (resulting in smoothing out disturbances), but at the same your whole compensation abilities too (amplifiying anomalies). You will be let with a complete other combination of accoustic information processing apparatus.

It is the whole rich world of sound perception. (It is similar with visual percepiton as well, eg. if you wath an old pre-WWII colour movie at first you see the very comressed flat colours but after a short while your brain compensates and you forget it.)

As I have said, I personally was NOT ABLE to hear out anything bad with CA95 (although definitely with CA65 where some harmonic distortions were present even some with good headphones (Sennheiser HD650 and AKG271).

With CA95 I could very well here metallic overtones and resonances with the mighty SoundBoard along with very real vibrations, but the result was not more for me as the personality of the individual keys.

(I am just wondering, whether the soundboard/amplifier is trimmed to the built-in sound synthesis and how it can work togeeher with external sound sources/instruments, whether there are some untamed interferences?).

Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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