Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 19 of 49 < 1 2 ... 17 18 19 20 21 ... 48 49 >
Topic Options
#1976512 - 10/20/12 11:17 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
A clarification on diminished chords built on the leading tone: if you want to call it a rootless seven chord, the invisible root will be the fifth degree of the key, just like in a normal seven chord.

The seven chord (rooted or rootless) and where it goes is really really really important in these sonatinas. Over and over and over and over we see a seven chord (that is, X7 specifically, or its extensions X9 or X7b9) heralding the chord (and fleeting key) with root a fifth below. See A7? Expect D or Dm. See B7? Expect E or Em. See G#7? Expect C# or C#m. Etc.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
(ads P/S)

Petrof Pianos

#1976676 - 10/21/12 10:11 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Toronto
Good Sunday, everyone smile

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Sonatina #6, movement 1
Applying these ideas to the passage that you suggested was G minor: are they consistent with G minor? If not, what different key do they suggest?


No, not consistent with G minor. There is no C# in G minor. Plus, I think now that it is just some colour (a brief flat 9 in the A7) before returning to D.

Are we ready to Rondo, now? Or, more to uncover with the Allegro con spirito.

Of course, I am keen either way and believe we will soon be wrapping up this Clementi series. Is this correct, and has anything been earmarked for moving forward?



Edited by Greener (10/21/12 04:59 PM)

Top
#1976702 - 10/21/12 11:35 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
Sonatina #6, movement 1

Listened several more times. The second time, I was able to hear where the exposition, development, and recapitulation happen. I did this by listening very closely to what the very beginning of the piece sounds like, and where I heard that again. (This is hearing melodically what's going on; I have NO sense of "I was just in the dominant, now I'm back to the tonic, this must be the repeat.")

What confused me before is that there is a big cadence in the middle of the exposition (and the recapitulation) so when I heard it the first time I expected that to be the end of the exposition. So I ended up hearing lots and lots of sections instead of just six (expo, dev, recap, repeated).

My latest listen, I listened to the LH, and that was fun, hearing how it's doing something different from the RH, and it has some nice effects of its own.

Next I'm going to listen, score in hand, and mark the places where I hear something unusual happening.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (10/21/12 04:44 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed sonatina #
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1976703 - 10/21/12 11:41 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
Sonatina #6, movement 1

Something else I can hear is that the development ends in a very open-ended way. I'm not sure if the recapitulation starts in the only way that could complete the open-ended development, but it does sound quite natural.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (10/21/12 04:42 PM)
Edit Reason: fixed sonatina #
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1976784 - 10/21/12 04:13 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Toronto
Sonatina #6 Allegro con sprito

Just a quick clarify, PS88. Your confirmation note about the flat around M50 was marked Sonatina No 5. movement 1, when in fact we were discussing No. 6 movement 1. I had also carried this reference through, not realizing it.

So, just wanted to clarify if last couple of posts are also discussing No.6 vs. No. 5.

I thought we were all, complete with no. 5.


Edited by Greener (10/21/12 04:25 PM)

Top
#1976789 - 10/21/12 04:41 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
Thanks for spotting that, Greener. Yes, I meant Sonatina #6. I've fixed the sonatina # in the offending posts. Yes, recent comments are all on #6.

I'm still working on Sonatina #6, movement 1 and have some comments I'll post over the next couple of days, depending on as I get to them.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1976937 - 10/22/12 12:06 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Sonatina No. 6, Allegro con spirito
M9 starts three measures of excitement, again followed by the calming voice of M7-8. We are in D Major throughout.

I find mm.12-16 to be quite the opposite of calming, with the expanding and briefly chromatic up-and-down eighth note figure from m.12 to m.13, and again at m.14 to m.15.

Quote:
M30 introduces a subtle three note sequence on F#-G-A hidden in repeated and broken thirds.

F#-G#-A (et passim ff.)
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1976944 - 10/22/12 12:30 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Sonatina #6, movement 1

Something else I can hear is that the development ends in a very open-ended way. I'm not sure if the recapitulation starts in the only way that could complete the open-ended development, but it does sound quite natural.

I had a quick play-through. It's got a feeling of "waiting for the shoe to drop" and there's a reason for it. From m. 55 to 56 you have A (V chord of D) developing into an A7 chord while we have "poco ritardando". It leads up to D, leads up to D, and then instead of giving us that D we end up with A7, the melody note being C#, the leading note of D, being held in a tenuto - followed by a tenuto pause. Literally we have a pregnant pause. Then "a tempo" the quick downbeat notes and we're back in the jaunty opening with the long expected D chord. Well heard!

Top
#1976945 - 10/22/12 12:33 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
Sonatina #6, movement 1, Allegro con spirito

Places that stand out to me listening (in addition to the pyrotechnics running up and down scales):

The up-and-down eighth notes in m.12 into m.13, and m.14 into m.15 (and similarly in the recapitulation). Curiously, while I can hear that the mm.14-15 set is higher than the mm.12-13 set, I don't register that it's an octave higher. It sounds like a completely new set of interesting notes to me, not just "oh that's the same thing, an octave higher".

The three quarter notes in the left hand from m.30 to the downbeat of m.31, and again from m.31 to the downbeat of m.32. Although they don't appear to ascend on paper, I hear the three dyads as an ascending sequence. This figure appears again at mm.34-36, and again in the recapitulation.

The accidental and dim7 laden passage from mm.48-51, and again from mm.53-56.

Try as I might, I can't hear the arrival of G# in m. 17 as an unusual note.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1976947 - 10/22/12 12:36 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Sonatina No. 6, Allegro con spirito
M9 starts three measures of excitement, again followed by the calming voice of M7-8. We are in D Major throughout.

I find mm.12-16 to be quite the opposite of calming, with the expanding and briefly chromatic up-and-down eighth note figure from m.12 to m.13, and again at m.14 to m.15.
F#-G#-A (et passim ff.)


I hate to write of emotions since they are so subjective. What we feel is what we feel, and there is no right or wrong about feeling. Having said that, subjectively smile I also might feel a calming or settling down at that point. The music has been dancing up and down the scale in sixteenth notes, and suddenly we have a much slower dotted quarter followed by eighth notes. We have a simple D to G cadence, and the C#, C, B dance around the repeated D while gently drifting down from C# to B. The D octave in the bass also slows everything down for me, keeping it fixed on that one note. But as said, this is subjective.

Top
#1976948 - 10/22/12 12:41 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
Sonatina #6, movement 1, Allegro con spirito

Places that stand out to me in examining the score:

All the parts that stood out to me listening. Plus:

I like the way the bridge mm.16-22 from the exposition change completely for mm.72-74. Despite being less than half the length of the original, the new bridge manages to squeeze in no less than three ascending D major scales. But lest he be accused of hammering D major too much, Clementi cleverly varies the bass over which these scales sound: D, then C#, then B.

I like the way m.36 of the exposition is modified in m.88 in the recapitulation. By changing the turnaround point in the scale passage in m.88 compared to its model in m.36, Clementi moves the recapitulation from sounding a fourth above the exposition, to sounding a fifth below. Thus he gets to have a high and glittering second theme in his recapitulation, but then descend an octave for a firmly grounded finish.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1977043 - 10/22/12 11:00 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2337
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Sonatina #6, movement 1, Allegro con spirito

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Try as I might, I can't hear the arrival of G# in m. 17 as an unusual note.

Try playing that passage with the G's as natural a couple of times. It has a very bland sound but when you go back to G#'s it really lifts it!
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1977240 - 10/22/12 06:51 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Sonatina #6, movement 1, Allegro con spirito

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Try as I might, I can't hear the arrival of G# in m. 17 as an unusual note.

Try playing that passage with the G's as natural a couple of times. It has a very bland sound but when you go back to G#'s it really lifts it!

Whether or not someone hears it as an unusual note depends on how they are hearing, which includes what they are naturally listening for, and what is coming in on a subconscious level. For example, I was more inclined toward relative pitch and hearing music in groupings that belonged together (I'm groping for words). I naturally shifted into a new key without being aware of it. That means that if I got the feeling of being in A major at that point, the shift would have happened at the same time, and there would be nothing strange or unusual about the G#. It is the leading note of A and it would feel like it belongs.

On the other hand, if I was more of a pitch-oriented person, who hears G as G, G# as G, plays each note separately according to what it is, then I would have been hearing all the G's, and that sudden G# would really strike me. Since that time I have learned to hear this way as well, which is why I'm aware of both.

Composers wrote music to be played by musicians, but to be heard by non-musicians. So they would write material that appears normal because of how it is absorbed subconsciously on many different levels. Some of those sensibilities also belong to the musician.

In other words, PianoStudent88 not hearing anything unusual may as much be due to what she does not hear, as it may be due to what she DOES hear. This hearing thing is tricky business, and has more sides to it than I once imagined.

Top
#1977243 - 10/22/12 06:55 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
I'm wondering if it's because the tonic to dominant key shift is so common that I don't register the extra sharp as being out of (the original) key.

I'll try listening to it as G natural and listen to how that compares to G#.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1977256 - 10/22/12 07:44 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
What about forming your own impressions, and checking what your own impressions are, knowing that whatever they are, they are right because they are yours? I think that the main thing this section does for me, is to tell me that it's about to go on to something else. I know it intellectually because it has ended on E7. If it didn't land on A and give a feeling of A major or minor, I'd be surprised or disturbed. But since it does the expected, it doesn't make a big splash.

Top
#1977933 - 10/24/12 09:33 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
I am forming my own impressions, but I'm also interested in enlarging my impressions. For example, I've noticed that I often seem to be able to hear accidentals in the music: they stick out to my ear as something unusual. So it's curious to me that I can't hear the G# as unusual.

It's true that I'm particularly interested in hearing the G# because that would be, for me, the moment when the shift to the dominant starts (since I'm not trying to do what seems impossible for me right now, detect the shift to dominant by hearing a change in tonic). And I'm interested in hearing that shift because I'd like to be able to hear the parts in sonata form which are "home, away from home [shift to dominant in exposition], really far away from home [development], home again [recapitulation]." I may ultimately give up on being able to hear that, but for now I'm still curious about it.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1977961 - 10/24/12 10:45 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: PianoStudent88]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I am forming my own impressions, but I'm also interested in enlarging my impressions. For example, I've noticed that I often seem to be able to hear accidentals in the music: they stick out to my ear as something unusual. So it's curious to me that I can't hear the G# as unusual.

How about ..... If Clementi decided to stick a new key signature into the middle of the measure at that point, there would no longer be an accidental. wink That's what we hear. It's the point of modulation.

I'm seeing this in colours for the moment. You could split a square in half, and colour one side red, and the other yellow. Or you could start smearing yellow and red together in the middle so that the red gets yellower and yellower, and the yellow gets redder and redder where they meet. There is a point where you can't tell whether it's red or yellow. (Of course we have a name for that combined colour - orange - reddish orange or yellowish orange). Is this nuts or does it make sense?

Top
#1977972 - 10/24/12 11:29 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: keystring

How about ..... If Clementi decided to stick a new key signature into the middle of the measure at that point, there would no longer be an accidental. wink

I'm seeing this in colours for the moment..

There is a point where you can't tell whether it's red or yellow. (Of course we have a name for that combined colour - orange - reddish orange or yellowish orange). Is this nuts or does it make sense?


It is a good analogy for me KS. Accidentals will not be so apparent when they are not accidentals at all in the modulation that has taken place. Else, they may be very apparent when they are adding colour that is not in conformity with the key.

As a beginner student here, I would be more likely to notice (that is hear) a shift from Red to Yellow. But, when it is by way of Orange, I would be more likely to miss the smoother transition and then look back and say "what happened, how did I end up in this key?"
_________________________

Top
#1978324 - 10/25/12 03:14 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
smile

Meanwhile, are we ready to do the next two movements of sonatina 6? Is this the last one of Clementi being done?

Top
#1978398 - 10/25/12 08:55 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Toronto
Sonatina #6

I'm always game to go. I just see one more movement (Rondo) of this Sonatina. And, believe this is the first Sonatina we have come across with just two movements. Albeit the first movement was larger than most.

Perhaps, Mr. Clementi was running out of steam. smile

I had taken a look at the Rondo earlier in the week to identify the sections, and what I had marked was:

A - M1-M24 (I had thought of labelling M17 to M24 as something other then A, but changed my mind)

B - M25-M38

C (development) - M39-M63

A

Happy for someone else to take the lead from here on identifying more (correcting above) etc. I'll not have too much time to look at this more today as have some appointments to tend to. Also, my batting average has not been so great with the Rondo's.



Edited by Greener (10/25/12 09:03 AM)
Edit Reason: fix measure #'s
_________________________

Top
#1978469 - 10/25/12 12:22 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
Sonatina 6 - Rondo

I think I found the rondo form:

A mm 1 - mid 8
B mm mid8 - 12
A mm mid-12 - 16, or further if end is a codetta
C mm25 - 39
"A" mm 39 - start of 44; feels like a variation of A
D to end (theme repeats itself twice)
Then da capo al fine brings us to mm 1 - 23 = A, B, A

The A's have variations.

Edit: Greener, my divisions are where yours are, but I've added a few. grin


Edited by keystring (10/25/12 12:32 PM)
Edit Reason: addendum

Top
#1978587 - 10/25/12 04:50 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2337
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Sonatina No.6, Rondo

Well I differ from each of you.

In accordance with Clementi's previous ventures into the Rondo form this is again ternary ABA.

A is a seven-and-a-half bar theme (M1-8), repeated (M8-15) and closed (M16-24). We're in D major throughout.

B is the remainder; variations of and ideas from the previous material. The keys are D major, A major from M27, through A minor to E major at M33 closing back to A major at M39 where another idea/variation begins and maintains the key to the end of the section.

Heaps more fun to play than to analyse.
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1978642 - 10/25/12 07:39 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
You are right, A repeats three times in the beginning. My bad. I still do hear m 39 - 44 as a close variation to A, which would go with what you wrote about variations. Since it has a development, is it a kind of rondo sonata-form clone?


Edited by keystring (10/25/12 07:51 PM)

Top
#1979483 - 10/27/12 10:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Sonatina No.6, Rondo

Well I differ from each of you.

In accordance with Clementi's previous ventures into the Rondo form this is again ternary ABA.

A is a seven-and-a-half bar theme (M1-8), repeated (M8-15) and closed (M16-24). We're in D major throughout.

B is the remainder; variations of and ideas from the previous material. The keys are D major, A major from M27, through A minor to E major at M33 closing back to A major at M39 where another idea/variation begins and maintains the key to the end of the section.


This conclusion all makes sense to me, as well. Just getting back to this now and getting caught up to finish line of Sonatine no. 6.

Thanks again Richard, for guiding us all through the process and this quite in-depth study thread of Clementi Sonatines'. And to everyone else that participated and also shared a wealth of knowledge and perspective. Everyone's insight and free sharing, is very much appreciated.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Heaps more fun to play than to analyse.


Yes, I imagine it would be and I am getting quite a back log of material I would like to come back to and work on.

The entire process of analysis has and is, also fun and is highly educational for me. We (or at least since I got involved) have been at this ("the study threads") quite steady now since the Moonlight Sonata Study thread in mid August. So over 2 months. Doesn't seem like this long ...

Where am I going with this ... just that it is really great stuff and keen to move forward with more.

Top
#1980160 - 10/29/12 04:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2337
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Has everyone finished sonatina no. 6?

So, where now?

If we continue with the sonata we'd be working at a level beyond our immediate playing ability. Is this what we want?

We have still have to cover the minor key also.

I have my own ideas about direction but what do other people want?

Any thoughts from the silent followers that make up our almost 29000 views?
_________________________
Richard

Top
#1980162 - 10/29/12 04:16 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
I'm ready to move ahead, but would like to hear from the others.

Top
#1980296 - 10/29/12 09:43 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014


Registered: 05/29/12
Posts: 1180
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: zrtf90

If we continue with the sonata we'd be working at a level beyond our immediate playing ability.

We have still have to cover the minor key also.

I have my own ideas about direction but what do other people want?

Any thoughts from the silent followers that make up our almost 29000 views?

What about Mendelssohn?

Not sure if the selections from the future "themed recital" are good choices for analysis -- they all look short -- . But, from a timing perspective there may be some interest in understanding the pieces better in preparation.

Otherwise, happy to follow other preference.

Top
#1980553 - 10/30/12 02:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3170
Loc: Maine
I have yet to listen closely to the Sonatina #6 movement 2, and I hope to do so. May or may not have anything to say once I've done that.

Happy to go anywhere the group decides, and don't mind if it's playable by me at my current stage or not. Going to Mendelssohn will introduce us to a more complex harmonic language than what we've dealt with so far in Clementi, or so I believe, which could be a good thing.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

Top
#1980583 - 10/30/12 03:19 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11656
Loc: Canada
Richard, you have studied the various works. You would probably be a good judge of what is best to introduce and in what order from a teaching perspective for what won't make us lost, and what might be interesting, maybe in that order. (Hopefully not putting you on the spot). I'm fine for anything, and enjoying the ride. smile I do like Mendelssohn.

Top
#1980627 - 10/30/12 05:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2337
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Going to Mendelssohn will introduce us to a more complex harmonic language than what we've dealt with so far in Clementi

I think not. Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words, while perfect in their own way, take ternary form as the structure, rather like Clementi's rondos. They are a theme, an expansion of it and a restatement of it. Some of them have little introductions and codas, eg. op. 30 no. 3. But they do not test the emotions with dissonance nor stray far from the beaten path.

They are the musical equivalent of a sandwich. Nutritious and perfectly made, but not adventurous fare, harmonically, lyrically, or structurally.

We've already seen what a page of Chopin can do but we've also looked at music from more perspectives than harmonic analysis. There's a thematic analysis, a structural one, an investigation of the proportion and symmetry, the unity, the tension and release and those devices that send shivers down the spine and keep us coming back for more.
____________________________

Are you after something simple that you can play yourself and analyse easily?

Are you after something more demanding harmonically but without the scale of a full blown sonata while you consoldiate your skills?

Or do you want to continue with the sonata and look at some of the major works?

____________________________

My preference would be to continue with the sonata but to go a little slower than we have thus far and spend a little more time on each piece. I'd like to choose pieces that are worth spending time on and learn them more thoroughly, not just to play them (or not even to play them) but to be able to listen to them and appreciate their inner beauty with an intimacy normally reserved for the performer.

A sample route - I haven't analysed any of these yet except the Liszt, so they may be subject to change - it's just an indication of my intended direction:

Haydn Sonata No. 60 in C major, Hob. XVI:50
One of his more mature works. The other options would be either of the two big E flat sonatas, Hob. XVI 49 or 52.

Mozart Sonata in A, K 331
What better way to develop pattern recognition skills than studying variation form? The Alla Turca is immensely popular. There are many others from the same pen if someone has a preference.

Clementi Sonata in F# minor, Op. 25 No. 5
There's a reason Beethoven preferred that his nephew Carl learnt Clementi's sonatas rather than Mozart's. This would redress the balance after studying the feller only in his sonatinas. His major works drew the admiration not just of Beethoven but also Brahms and pianists such as Horowitz and lately Demidenko.

Beethoven Sonata in C minor, Op. 13, "Pathétique"
Again, there are many other choices here.

Schubert Sonata in B Flat, D. 960
Any of the last three sonatas would be worthy of time spent.

I don't think the sonata is complete without a good look at Liszt's B minor sonata, either. I know these are daunting pieces and we've already burned our fingers on lesser heat but I really don't believe we have to approach analysis with surgical precision. We just need to know what's going on enough to appreciate it a bit more. I can enjoy looking at Michelangelo's David or Raphael's Galatea without knowing how to sculpt or mix paints.
_________________________
Richard

Top
Page 19 of 49 < 1 2 ... 17 18 19 20 21 ... 48 49 >

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
154 registered (accordeur, AEMontoya, 89grand, 36251, 50 invisible), 1233 Guests and 9 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75963 Members
42 Forums
157097 Topics
2307149 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
The Mooozart Effect
by Rich Galassini
Today at 06:13 PM
What would you do in this situation?
by CountSmith
Today at 05:55 PM
An aural and visual demonstration of the Skeleton.
by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Today at 05:09 PM
tunelab update
by michaelopolis
Today at 04:40 PM
Who makes ribbon moulding?
by Craig Hair
Today at 03:25 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission