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#1970456 - 10/08/12 07:13 PM Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell"
36251 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
I like to know how you would analyze this pick up to his solo. I'm especially interested in the line of the D7b9.

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#1970475 - 10/08/12 08:04 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Chicago
I'm no expert on this, but it looks like a I-VI-II-V, which is a standard turn around, but the V is missing. The D7 (which has a #5 and b9) is an altered VI chord. The only odd thing, as I mentioned, is that the C7 chord should end the sequence. Maybe the bass player does something to fill that in.

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#1970483 - 10/08/12 08:17 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Nobody is playing a D7b9 at that point so solo break doesn't have to have anything to do with that chord. Maybe Red is thinking of a C7 altered in the 2nd bar judging by his note choice, but who knows?
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#1970618 - 10/09/12 01:36 AM Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: 36251
I like to know how you would analyze this pick up to his solo.

For what sort of analysis are you hoping?

It is a sincere question. If you are sort of expecting the notes Red Garland plays in his right hand to match chord tones from the chord symbols, that is going to happen less than 40% of the time.

In front of me as I write, there is an accurate transcription of one of his solos on the Cole Porter classic WHAT IS THIS THING CALLED LOVE. Both his right hand improvisation, and the accompanying extended chords, plus the bass, to my ear, are faithful to the recording. But, when one comes to analyze what Mr. Garland was doing, big problems arise:

Example: There are 2 measures where the harmony sits on a simple F minor. During those two measures, his solo line covers the following DIFFERENT notes: Bb, C, Eb, E, F, Gb, G , and Ab (playing several of them more than once). Of those 8 different notes, 5 are “outside the chord”.
.
Red Garland’s style was to “circle around” chord tones, frequently hitting the note above, AND the note below, before landing on a chord note proper. Or he would slide up to it, or down to it chromatically. This sort of embellished playing almost defies analysis, unless one wants to treat each one-half beat as its own extended or altered chord. Even if that were practical, such segmented analysis completely misses the point of harmonic drive characteristic of bebop.

If I missed the point of your question, I am sorry for that. But this is an on-going struggle for those attempting to categorize what the great improvisors are doing.

Ed
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1970666 - 10/09/12 05:38 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: LoPresti]
36251 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
For what sort of analysis are you hoping?

Just wanted to see how people's mind differ and hopefully learn something from it, as well as others also benefiting. Transcriptions are a great tool to improve one's playing but to access phrases, don't you think having some sort of order to categorize them can be useful? I've already altered my conception of that phrase over the possible D7b9 chord being the first beat could be a continuation of a phrase from the FMAG and the 2-4th beat from either C7alt or G.

There's no right answer or even if it's useful but I think it's important to think about to free up one's own thinking about the infinite choices you have from keeping your improvisation "safe."


Edited by 36251 (10/09/12 05:39 AM)
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#1970723 - 10/09/12 10:18 AM Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Thanks, 36251,

Now that I understand what you are after, it makes perfect sense. Just like with any other music theory, categorization in Jazz is essential for teaching, and useful for learning – absolutely. And, as we both know, the “downside” of the categorization in teaching is that it often leads to mechanical playing: “Here is THE scale that you play over this chord”. And that eventually leads to the necessity of your point, about freeing up the performer’s thinking in keeping her/his improvisation “safe”.

So here’s my take on those two-and-a-quarter measures:

|| Fmaj7 / / / / | AØ7 / / D7b9 / / | G7 / . . . . .

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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1970741 - 10/09/12 11:00 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: LoPresti]
36251 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
Originally Posted By: LoPresti


So here’s my take on those two-and-a-quarter measures:

|| Fmaj7 / / / / | AØ7 / / D7b9 / / | G7 / . . . . .

Is this what you think Red was thinking? I know nobody can answer that question but that's the heart of my question. Sure, he probably wasn't thinking at all, but at some point of his training he might of and that's the real essence of my question. Thanks for contributing - it all helps
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#1970753 - 10/09/12 11:34 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: 36251
Is this what you think Red was thinking? I know nobody can answer that question but that's the heart of my question. Sure, he probably wasn't thinking at all. . .

I believe most of these exceptional people were (are) REACTING to the moment, rather than doing much thinking. In a sense, Mr. Garland played what he heard, rather than what he thought. If there was any subconscious "thinking", it was probably along these lines: "What will sound good here?"

Then, it is you or I who is doing the thinking by attempting to analyze after-the-fact.

We discuss this stuff constantly on the Teachers' Forum: The vast disparity between what the composer (in this case, the improvisor) wrote, the inadequate tools we have for analysis, and our attemps to categorize and impart the material to students.
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#1972994 - 10/14/12 02:19 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 08/07/04
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Based on the notes in measure 2, I might guess Red was thinking Ab7, the tritone substitution for D7 and the same rootless voicing. The line makes more sense over Ab7 than D7 and is in a Ab mixolydian scale. Anybody agree?

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#1973306 - 10/14/12 08:02 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: Jazz+]
36251 Offline
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Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 740
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Based on the notes in measure 2, I might guess Red was thinking Ab7, the tritone substitution for D7 and the same rootless voicing. The line makes more sense over Ab7 than D7 and is in a Ab mixolydian scale. Anybody agree?
+1
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#1973335 - 10/14/12 09:26 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Chicago
The Ab7 suggestion makes a lot of sense.

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#1974919 - 10/17/12 10:57 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 629
Loc: Chicago
Just want to add that this brings to mind the fun turnaround, used I think in the Intro to Blues for Alice:
Fmaj7
Ab7
Dbmaj7
C7

I uses this in a lot of intro and turnarounds.


Edited by jjo (10/18/12 03:18 PM)

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#1975205 - 10/18/12 01:48 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
Jazz+ Offline
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Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
And the turn around in Lady Bird in C

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#1975501 - 10/19/12 02:26 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
Originally Posted By: 36251
I like to know how you would analyze this pick up to his solo. I'm especially interested in the line of the D7b9.



That 16th note cell of 4 notes on the D7 I would analyze as being a fragment of the Ebm melodic minor scale. On the triplet, I think Red just liked the *rub* or sound of the Db... or like J+ mentioned, almost an Ab7 type sound.
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#1975698 - 10/19/12 12:40 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 369
If you listen carefully at 4:23, he plays an Ab13 rootless voicing during the Db-Eb-Db triplet, just before the G7 (G13 as played by Red) that is printed in your score, so we must conclude from this that Red is definitely soloing temporarily over Ab dominant 7. On the piano, this line falls nicely from black-key usage over Ab7 to white key usage over the G7. Red was probably thinking or feeling this higher (black-key usage) falling to lower white-key usage 'in the moment' of his solo break, rather than scales:




Hope this helps!

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#1977361 - 10/23/12 12:33 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: erichlof]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Based on the notes in measure 2, I might guess Red was thinking Ab7, the tritone substitution for D7 and the same rootless voicing.

Originally Posted By: erichlof
If you listen carefully at 4:23, he plays an Ab13 rootless voicing during the Db-Eb-Db triplet, just before the G7 (G13 as played by Red)

O.K. Willing to show my obvious ignorance for all the world to read: Precisely how does one so emphatically determine a "tri-tone substitution", "rootless voicing" from a single voice, melody line?
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1977457 - 10/23/12 07:19 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: LoPresti]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: LoPresti

O.K. Willing to show my obvious ignorance for all the world to read: Precisely how does one so emphatically determine a "tri-tone substitution", "rootless voicing" from a single voice, melody line?


I don't think people here are determining that solely on that one melody line. You can also take into account what the LH is playing and whether the soloists does similar harmonic substitution on the same parts of tune at different times. Figuring out the LH voicing(which may be tricky) can obviously give you great deal of info on what may be happening. It's just matter of making educated guess based on what you know. Most substitution of this type are fairly common.

I think I can give you a better example of determining rootless voicing/harmonic substitution on this tune

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM8obFt5d8g

I'm specifically listening to the passage from 5:25

If you can figure out what the LH is playing+and the line he's playing, you'll most likely come to conclusion that the chords are being changed to Ab7/Ab7 Abmin/Gmin7 C7/C#min7 F#7(Tritone of Gmin7 C7).

Btw I agree with everyone else that it's mostly likely just a passing Ab7 chord before G7

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#1977540 - 10/23/12 11:10 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: LoPresti]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 369
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
Based on the notes in measure 2, I might guess Red was thinking Ab7, the tritone substitution for D7 and the same rootless voicing.

Originally Posted By: erichlof
If you listen carefully at 4:23, he plays an Ab13 rootless voicing during the Db-Eb-Db triplet, just before the G7 (G13 as played by Red)

O.K. Willing to show my obvious ignorance for all the world to read: Precisely how does one so emphatically determine a "tri-tone substitution", "rootless voicing" from a single voice, melody line?


Hi LoPresti,
I meant what was going on in the Left Hand, not the right. The right hand in this instance is just blending with and some could say a "slave" to what is going on in the left hand. And what is going on in the left hand is (from the bottom up) during the 2nd measure on the 'and' of beat 2 is:
F#-C-F . This can be one of 2 things:
1. A D7(#9) chord, acting as a temporary dominant of G, thus leading to G7. In this case the voicing is spelled F#-C-E# (3rd, 7th, #9)
2. A Tri-Tone substitution of D, which is Ab7, which also leads to G7. In this case, we spell the voicing enharmonically: Gb-C-F (7th, 3rd, 13th), thus making this voicing an Ab13.

The right hand in this instance almost doesn't even matter. I think it's safe to say that when analyzing player's intents during improvisation of jazz standards, the hierarchy goes something like:
Bass (most important)
Chords or Harmony (very important, sometimes just as important as explained below)
Melody (less important)

When you add different band members each playing a different role (Bass player, piano chords, sax), then the bass player might decide to do a tritone sub in the moment. Or, in this case, the pianist also has free reign to do a tritone sub without the bass player knowing or agreeing on before hand. Then we are left with guys and gals like us on the forums trying to figure out what the heck happened. Happens all the time. smile

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#1977541 - 10/23/12 11:15 AM Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: etcetra]
LoPresti Offline
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Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
I have again listened to the actual Miles’ tune that erichlof was kind enough to locate and post above, and at the point where Mr. Garland starts his solo, which seems to match the transcription also posted above, I hear NOTHING but the piano RH, single voice, melodic line.

Without the benefit of the recording, and looking only at the single line transcription, I took a stab at it:
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
So here’s my take on those two-and-a-quarter measures:

|| Fmaj7 / / / / | AØ7 / / D7b9 / / | G7 / . . . . .

So the consensus is that there is an IMPLIED Ab7 tonality, without a root, being substituted for the D7. Is that primarily because Mr. Garland typically uses this type of substitution (in a musical situation like this) when he is playing the full chords?

Not trying to be argumentative -- I do not listen to a lot of Red Garland, and I am trying to see (hear!) where the consensus comes from: How do we know that my guess at that measure is not more idiomatic -- a rootless AØ7 followed by a rootless D7b9 (for example)?

And thanks for the Joshua Redman blues, I really loved it. Unfortunately, by the time we arrived at 5:25, Brad Mehldau had worked his way so far out on a limb, my ears lost the harmonic thread. (Maybe that is the problem . . .)

Ed
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1977550 - 10/23/12 11:34 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: erichlof]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: erichlof
I meant what was going on in the Left Hand, not the right. The right hand in this instance is just blending with and some could say a "slave" to what is going on in the left hand. And what is going on in the left hand is (from the bottom up) during the 2nd measure on the 'and' of beat 2 is:
F#-C-F . This can be one of 2 things: . . .

I am going to have to pipe this through my amp and speakers. Once you have pinpointed that little chord, I hear it, but only as a "blur". However, with an additional point of reference (beside the posted melodic line), all of the agreement here makes better sense to me.
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In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1977552 - 10/23/12 11:40 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
erichlof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 369
Hi again,
I didn't hear it the first time either, so don't feel bad. Try to start the playback of the recording link I provided above by hovering your mouse over the timeline line at 4:23. Play it until 4:25 (by 4:25 it's done, so there's no point in continuing to listen).
On my computer, the left hand rootless voicing occurs between the 4:24 and the 4:25 mark. Sometimes I wish YouTube had 10ths of seconds display like the film industry (which has down to 1000ths of a second right? smile ) , so sorry I can't point you to it any more precisely. On my computer it happens just before the clock marker turns "4:25").

You may need to turn up the volume and try to "tune-out" the right hand for a sec.

Even if this voicing was not there, like you said, it is a common practice to go from Ab7 to G7 in a musical situation like this. The way that particular voicing feels to the hand of a pianist makes sense in this example. A second later, even softer, Red plays a G7(13) during the following G7 measure. This looks like F-B-E on the piano which is very widely used and practiced among jazz pianists. To proceed this with a chromatically higher Ab voicing (Gb-C-F) was probably so ingrained in Red's mind and playing style, that he probably did this as a left hand 'reflex', more than thinking "Oh, let's do a tri-tone sub here". I don't want to put words in his mouth (or notes on his piano - ha), but this is probably what's going on in this brief moment of his improv.

Let me know if you can hear that voicing. Maybe in the spirit of upcoming Halloween, we should nickname it "Ghost voicing". smile

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#1977583 - 10/23/12 01:27 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
Cudo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Originally Posted By: 36251
I like to know how you would analyze this pick up to his solo. I'm especially interested in the line of the D7b9.



Even if the left hand plays an Ab13 rootless voicing, the melody of these 2 bars outlines | FMA9 | F#13 | --> G13 an ascending bassline.

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#1978052 - 10/24/12 02:23 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
I don't think F#13 makes sense for the second chord in that I VI II V situation because it's not a substitute for D7 that resolves to G7.

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#1978168 - 10/24/12 06:36 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
Exalted Wombat Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 1195
Loc: London UK
If the chords were (half-a-bar each) F^ Am7 Gm7 C7 ithe notes would make perfect sense.
Perhaps his fingers just slipped into a favourite "hot lick"?

I expect there have been attempts to analyse that unfortunate piano solo on "Giant Steps" too :-)

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#1978453 - 10/25/12 11:51 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: Jazz+]
Cudo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Originally Posted By: Jazz+
I don't think F#13 makes sense for the second chord in that I VI II V situation because it's not a substitute for D7 that resolves to G7.

F#13 of course isn't a direct substitute of D7 but the F#13 chord has resolution tendencies toward the following G13 and works very well as a linking chord between FMA7 and G13.

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#1978507 - 10/25/12 02:17 PM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: Cudo]
Jazz+ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/04
Posts: 838
Loc: Banned
Cudo,

The F#dim 7 chord works well connecting Fmaj to a G chord because it's a very close substitute for D7b9.

A lot of tunes do this such as Easy Living, Ain't Misbehavin', Makin' Whoopee, My Ship, Mean To Me, It Could Happen To You, Have You Met Miss Jones, Memories Of You, You Took Advantage Of Me, Where Can I Go Without You, just to name a few.

But I cannot remember any song that uses F#7 to get from Fmaj to G. I doesn't really resolve well.
Can you name any song that uses F#7 to go from Fmaj to G?

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#1978727 - 10/26/12 01:00 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I agree with Jazz+ too.. F#13 seems rather unusual as passing chord, especially for this time period. Besides, the C on the 3rd beat would make it F#13#11 doesn't it? IMO the simpliest solutions are usually the right one, and Tritone Sub/Ab7 would be the most obvious answer to me, and the last two notes (A&Ab) are just chromatically going to the G7 chord.

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#1987038 - 11/15/12 11:10 AM Re: Red Garland pick-up to "If I Were a Bell" [Re: 36251]
Cudo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 135
Loc: Heidelberg, Germany
Jazz+ and etcetra,

I know what function F#o7 has. That's not what I am talking about.
I was speaking about F#13 approaching the V7/V from halfstep down below as a complete approach-chord.
This is an arranging technique which can be done with any chordquality.

Listen to --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTfBpKzu6XA

In the example you hear it approaching the tonic and the subdominant from down below.

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