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#2080308 - 05/10/13 12:18 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1104
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Olek

thanks for the witnessing. Then how do you expect the pin to bend, in the end ? what direction, none ?

the left position, seem more designed to avoid pushing on the bed of the pin when raising the pitch of the note.

pin twist always in the same direction - to bend them, one need to be particularly brutal whatever method used

When the lever is about 11:00 12:00 the position is
advantageous whatever side you are sitting.

I would say that the pin is better set with that orientation, but generally we do not like to change the lever posture while tuning, if possible.

What I said above apply to a lever in 9:00 11:00 where the weight of the tool is acting on the tuning pin more.


In an ideal world, the pin will not bend at all. The pin will simply rotate. That's why the closer the hand is to the tip using the method I mentioned, the less likely the pin will bend.

That is also why you need such great hand strength-to absolutely control the lever and not let it flagpole at all as you rotate it.

But, little errors do happen. If I make an error and do slightly bend the pin, the effects are minimized when the error happens at 11. If the pin bends upward or downward, it is more likely to change the tuning of the string when it returns to its correct shape later on. If I make an error and bend the pin slightly to the right, it is less likely to affect the pitch of the string later when it returns to its original shape. But again, the idea is not to bend the pin at all.

Using the method I mentioned, if there is too much torque, you would move your hand further away from the pin/fulcrum. If that still doesn't give you sufficient leverage, then moving the lever closer to 10 or 9 will give you even more leverage.

Moving the lever to 10 or 9 probably would not give you any advantage with tight pins using other techniques.

This method is very good for vertical pianos with wildly jumpy pins, but without a string lag problem. But, there is a physical cost.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2080583 - 05/11/13 02:29 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
One method I was shown and I still use for about 75% of verticals, is to rest my hand on top of the piano and then have the lever go across the back/side of my hand, wrapping the thumb around the other side of the lever. The thumb is used for downward pressure and for control. So, the tuning lever is a lever, and my hand/arm is another lever acting on the tuning lever.

I will also grip as close to the tip as leverage will permit me.


Joe, I'm having a hard time to picture what you're describing. Do you perhaps have a picture?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2080604 - 05/11/13 03:56 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark R.]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1104
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Joe, I'm having a hard time to picture what you're describing. Do you perhaps have a picture?


No problem, Mark.

Here are 4 pics i shot tonight. It's hard to see in the photos, but the veins really start to pop out on my left hand and arm after I start tuning this way.

I usually use the slow rotation method. But sometimes, i use a sort of quasi-impact style and throw the hammer in a controlled fashion. Edit: Unlike a lot of tuners on here, i actually like a slightly loose-fitting tip. Ironically, I feel it gives me more control... even with jumpy pins.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8728283834/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727165177/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727165019/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727164441/in/photostream


Edited by daniokeeper (05/11/13 04:08 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2080617 - 05/11/13 05:29 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1803
Loc: London, England
Does it really matter which hand is used if the tuning lever is being manipulated in this flippy-floppy, imprecise, waggling around we have seen in the videos in this particular thread so far?

If the object is to turn the pin with minimal twisting and minimal flagpoling with minimal turning of the pin for ultimate stability, then it certainly begins to matter which hand is used.

I know many pianos that have been tuned properly three to four hundred times a year for many years with no appreciable wear on the pinblock. All the videos shown in this thread so far will certainly cause unnecessary wear on a pinblock and the bearing points involved.

Surely anybody who reads these threads intelligently can not be suckered in by sloppy techniques put forward by people who have yet to show us a piano that stays in tune past the first moderately loud chord?

Solid techniques that don't wear the pin block have been discussed at length in Max's other thread and I know some intelligent tuners have gained a lot from that discussion, even though others, it seems, haven't. That's the great thing about an international forum like this, thousands, if not millions of people can learn from the replies even if the original poster learns nothing. I am confident that there are (and will be when others read the archives in the future) enough tuners out there who can sort the wheat from the chaff and gain from these discussions.

Anybody aspiring to first class concert work will find it the easiest work they ever did if they will learn the most efficient ways of working. Most of it is on pianos that were tuned only hours ago. There is mostly nothing to do and the reason for those extra "tunings" is more for insurance than anything but occasionally there are pitch raises that have to be done solidly and in record time. Funny thing is, by using nothing but time tested standard tuning lever technique, I can pitch raise far faster and more solidly than I ever could with the oddball methods I have tried from time to time in order to speed my work up or make it "easier" Hah!

None of what is in this thread is what I would call time tested standard tuning lever technique and disturbs the pin and string too much to be of any use if the tuning is important in any way.

I speak as someone who was taught correctly, made forays into alternate techniques for various reasons and returned to solid techniques.

For reasons of my own, I went from being a concert tuner in London to being a boondocks tuner in rural USA for many joyful years, (amazing how much work out there) then a few other fascinating byways and back to concert tuning in London. I am familiar with the standards accepted for most forms of tuning.

One thing puzzles me, why haven't our physicists on this forum worked out the moments of force on the tuning pin and string and given us a definitive tuning lever angle for any flagpoling to have the least effect on the pull of the string. We empiricals know what works and I did see some science once that corroborated it. It would add to the discussion.


Edited by rxd (05/11/13 08:42 AM)
Edit Reason: Clarity

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#2080655 - 05/11/13 07:54 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 740
Loc: England
What RxD said ..... says pretty much all that needs to be said wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2080683 - 05/11/13 09:08 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Johnkie]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1843
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
What RxD said ..... says pretty much all that needs to be said wink


Amen.

Some of the posts in the Piano Tuner-Technicians forum are to be viewed with a certain sense of alarm. One can only wonder just how much of this is being inflicted on client pianos. Short of closing the forum altogether, I am not sure what the answer is. Debate only seems to add to the confusion. And then there's youtube. Clearly some of these "experts" aren't going anywhere soon.

Here's a long shot, though history is not on the side of success: Perhaps with introspection, a realization might ensue resulting in great benefit for all; namely, that some of us should be doing more listening and less talking - more learning and less teaching.


"Think of it as how a circle expands – from the more familiar territory to the less so. That way, a child gradually acquires both a knowledge of history and an historic way of looking at the world, which might be summed up as the ingrained understanding that it didn't start this morning. It was the Roman orator Cicero who warned that 'not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child.'

"Only geese and fools, it's been said, believe the world is created anew every day. Well, we're not sure geese are that dumb, but to judge by some of the utopian schemes we keep hearing proposed, as if they hadn't been tried and failed before, humans certainly can be."

-Paul Greenberg


smile



Edited by bkw58 (05/11/13 09:13 AM)
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2080740 - 05/11/13 10:47 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Very interesting video smile

i was also taught to tune exclusively left-handed. We were also taught that the closer one can get to 11 or 12, the better. There would be less risk of bending the pin, or if the pin did bend slightly, the less it would matter because the bend would be from left to right, not up. So if the pin did bend and return to its original shape later, if it less likely to alter the tuning. .


A warning though... This method is very hard on the hand. Depending on your hand structure and other genetic factors, you could be shortening your tuning career.

I use it because it gives me excellent results as to tuning stability.
But, I do pay a price for using it.

These words are a balm for Max's soul
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2080743 - 05/11/13 10:51 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
for 47 years and have never found using my right hand when tuning uprights to be anywhere near as good as using my left. The only time I use my right hand on uprights is when I am chipping up ... either on re-strings or pitch raising with the action removed.

Thank,Johnkie
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2080792 - 05/11/13 12:09 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd

Solid techniques that don't wear the pin block have been discussed at length in Max's other thread and I know some intelligent tuners have gained a lot from that discussion, even though others, it seems, haven't. That's the great thing about an international forum like this, thousands, if not millions of people can learn from the replies even if the original poster learns nothing. I am confident that there are (and will be when others read the archives in the future) enough tuners out there who can sort the wheat from the chaff and gain from these discussions.

None of what is in this thread is what I would call time tested standard tuning lever technique and disturbs the pin and string too much to be of any use if the tuning is important in any way.

I speak as someone who was taught correctly, made forays into alternate techniques for various reasons and returned to solid techniques.

One thing puzzles me, why haven't our physicists on this forum worked out the moments of force on the tuning pin and string and given us a definitive tuning lever angle for any flagpoling to have the least effect on the pull of the string. We empiricals know what works and I did see some science once that corroborated it. It would add to the discussion.

Dear rxd, thanks for the message. Although it is immodest, but for myself understood and I will do in the future only:
1 for upright piano 9-12
2 for grand piano 3-6
And let me be sentenced to be burned Inquisition piano technicians, throwing into my fire corrugated cardboard shims
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2080795 - 05/11/13 12:13 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
I look at it this way. As long as one is using a traditional lever, flagpoling is a way of life and cannot be eliminated. The point is to use it to your advantage. Flagpoling is not always the enemy. In fact, how many of us use a final nudge to "bend" the pin to get the string that final cent or two? In other words, that final "leaning" of the pin.

As long as you are pulling or pushing a tuning pin with a traditional lever that gives you the leverage required to turn the pin, the pin is going to bend. It follows that in setting, it has to be unbent.

When using a Reyburn grand Cyberhammer, with its dual weights (I don't have one), you are applying pure torque with no bending. Unless you can simulate that with a traditional lever, you're bending the pin whether you realize it or not.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2080826 - 05/11/13 12:54 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1104
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I look at it this way. As long as one is using a traditional lever, flagpoling is a way of life and cannot be eliminated. The point is to use it to your advantage. Flagpoling is not always the enemy. In fact, how many of us use a final nudge to "bend" the pin to get the string that final cent or two? In other words, that final "leaning" of the pin. [Emphasis added]


Not me, if i can humanly help it. Force is being applied to both sides of the hammer, and the hand-arm system is moving in an arc supported by the fingertips on the top of the pinblock, so the emphasis can be on rotation alone.

Edit: As for setting the pin, I do use a slight reverse motion as a last step to untwist the pin. But, I don't need to also unbend it.

Uncomfortable? Yes.

Probably damaging to the hand? Yes.

Minimal pin bending? Absolutely.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/11/13 01:12 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2080848 - 05/11/13 01:23 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: David Jenson]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
but I haven't yet learned to use my left foot. smirk

be or not to be? А flipper or a paw it does not matter. To KEEP upright piano that's where the shoe pinches, if it is serious.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081179 - 05/12/13 03:31 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
What RxD said ..... says pretty much all that needs to be said wink

Debate only seems to add to the confusion. And then there's youtube. Clearly some of these "experts" aren't going anywhere soon.

Everybody technician has the right to seek yourself tuning method lever. Keep it's left side or right with...
The main thing that it was his intelligent choise. Make the truth can only be when there is a choice of different methods. "Separate the wheat from the chaff" (rxd)
YouTube only help it's. Doubt is the foundation of the movement to harmony
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081186 - 05/12/13 03:49 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd

I speak as someone who was taught correctly, made forays into alternate techniques for various reasons and returned to solid techniques.

Max is not a physicist. However, in practice, he tried to understand the details of the "behavior" of tuning pin. Maxim came to a deep conviction that for verticals (9-12) and (3-6) for grand piano is the best method of keeping a pitch on long time. We need large evidence against it. Max willing to admit it's not correct, if someone proves otherwise.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081192 - 05/12/13 04:22 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1803
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I speak as someone who was taught correctly, made forays into alternate techniques for various reasons and returned to solid techniques.

Max is not a physicist. However, in practice, he tried to understand the details of the "behavior" of tuning pin. Maxim came to a deep conviction that for verticals (9-12) and (3-6) for grand piano is the best method of keeping a pitch on long time. We need large evidence against it. Max willing to admit it's not correct, if someone proves otherwise.


Max, my dear old friend. The unquestionable evidence against it is your own tuning as evidenced by your videos. Is it not?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2081196 - 05/12/13 04:58 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I speak as someone who was taught correctly, made forays into alternate techniques for various reasons and returned to solid techniques.

Max is not a physicist. However, in practice, he tried to understand the details of the "behavior" of tuning pin. Maxim came to a deep conviction that for verticals (9-12) and (3-6) for grand piano is the best method of keeping a pitch on long time. We need large evidence against it. Max willing to admit it's not correct, if someone proves otherwise.


Max, my dear old friend. The unquestionable evidence against it is your own tuning as evidenced by your videos. Is it not?

Dear rxd.Not exactly. I do not see inability to use the method (9-12) because Max 's tuning is bad. Max had not previously used this method in his clips, but convinced of its viability
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081208 - 05/12/13 06:05 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1803
Loc: London, England
There is a way of using an ordinary tuning lever in a way that has absolute minimum flagpoling and therefore minimal friction on the pinblock. Does anyone remember how it was explained?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2081217 - 05/12/13 06:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I see no real relation with the tuning of upright left handed.(even if the pin itself is probably submitted to more work when the left hand is used)

In the end I do not bend the pin much or in a controlled way.

I seem to recall that someone have computed the torque necessary to correct the bending by using the thumb as a fulcrum, it was somewhere in archives of pianotech, or the PTg journal.

I learned to respect an absolute plane of rotation with the hand, and use the thumb to lower the bending down of the pin, but I am not really sure it correct a 100% the bending, the thumb allow to perceive it unless I do that without noticing

Replacing bending the pin to raise the tension in the front segment, by a controlled twisting it is how the pin get the firmer setting

When twisting the pin on itself I suggest we possibly use the fact that the metal deform and spring back.

We could call that gluing the pin... in case some have not yet had the chance to read that !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081218 - 05/12/13 06:50 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I speak as someone who was taught correctly, made forays into alternate techniques for various reasons and returned to solid techniques.

Max is not a physicist. However, in practice, he tried to understand the details of the "behavior" of tuning pin. Maxim came to a deep conviction that for verticals (9-12) and (3-6) for grand piano is the best method of keeping a pitch on long time. We need large evidence against it. Max willing to admit it's not correct, if someone proves otherwise.



There is sometime a long period (in your case very long) where the tuner is afraid of the pin, , and afraid of the string.
Will it bend ? will it break ? will it twist ?

Of course they do, and strings can break, but all oft It ends when you feel both correctly.



Edited by Olek (05/12/13 06:53 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081223 - 05/12/13 07:23 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I look at it this way. As long as one is using a traditional lever, flagpoling is a way of life and cannot be eliminated. The point is to use it to your advantage. Flagpoling is not always the enemy. In fact, how many of us use a final nudge to "bend" the pin to get the string that final cent or two? In other words, that final "leaning" of the pin. [Emphasis added]


Not me, if i can humanly help it. Force is being applied to both sides of the hammer, and the hand-arm system is moving in an arc supported by the fingertips on the top of the pinblock, so the emphasis can be on rotation alone.

Edit: As for setting the pin, I do use a slight reverse motion as a last step to untwist the pin. But, I don't need to also unbend it.

Uncomfortable? Yes.

Probably damaging to the hand? Yes.

Minimal pin bending? Absolutely.


But the final act of setting also requires the proper "leaning" of the pin.

And besides that, how many times do you have a piano with insane string rendering and incredibly tight pins? I can think of many pianos I tune that fit this description, and often times there is (slight) back and forth movement of the pin where the base of the pin is not turning, so you can find that "sweet spot" where the pin and string are both equalized, the string is at pitch, and the pin has no residual torque.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2081237 - 05/12/13 07:51 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I look at it this way. As long as one is using a traditional lever, flagpoling is a way of life and cannot be eliminated. The point is to use it to your advantage. Flagpoling is not always the enemy. In fact, how many of us use a final nudge to "bend" the pin to get the string that final cent or two? In other words, that final "leaning" of the pin. [Emphasis added]


Not me, if i can humanly help it. Force is being applied to both sides of the hammer, and the hand-arm system is moving in an arc supported by the fingertips on the top of the pinblock, so the emphasis can be on rotation alone.

Edit: As for setting the pin, I do use a slight reverse motion as a last step to untwist the pin. But, I don't need to also unbend it.

Uncomfortable? Yes.

Probably damaging to the hand? Yes.

Minimal pin bending? Absolutely.


But the final act of setting also requires the proper "leaning" of the pin.



Loren, it is not an obligation, really not, just a facility some of us use, first lightly, then more and more agressively in time.

The leaning of the pin is used to keep the tension equilibrium while lowering counterclockwise, the pin is there a torque reserve due to leaning.

Trading that for the same provided by the twist of the pin clears the picture definitively, in my case. mostly adopted that because of the wear I noticed on blocks.

PS some bending may remain, but is minimal - minimalized
Lever orientation does half of the job in that regard


Edited by Olek (05/12/13 07:56 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081256 - 05/12/13 08:36 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1843
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
What RxD said ..... says pretty much all that needs to be said wink

Debate only seems to add to the confusion. And then there's youtube. Clearly some of these "experts" aren't going anywhere soon.

Everybody technician has the right to seek yourself tuning method lever. Keep it's left side or right with...
The main thing that it was his intelligent choise. Make the truth can only be when there is a choice of different methods. "Separate the wheat from the chaff" (rxd)

YouTube only help it's. Doubt is the foundation of the movement to harmony


tired ("Angels and ministers of grace defend us!") Separate the wheat from the chaff is fine, so long as we recognize that the client fee is not "funding" and his or her piano is not our laboratory.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2081273 - 05/12/13 09:33 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I look at it this way. As long as one is using a traditional lever, flagpoling is a way of life and cannot be eliminated. The point is to use it to your advantage. Flagpoling is not always the enemy. In fact, how many of us use a final nudge to "bend" the pin to get the string that final cent or two? In other words, that final "leaning" of the pin. [Emphasis added]


Not me, if i can humanly help it. Force is being applied to both sides of the hammer, and the hand-arm system is moving in an arc supported by the fingertips on the top of the pinblock, so the emphasis can be on rotation alone.

Edit: As for setting the pin, I do use a slight reverse motion as a last step to untwist the pin. But, I don't need to also unbend it.

Uncomfortable? Yes.

Probably damaging to the hand? Yes.

Minimal pin bending? Absolutely.


But the final act of setting also requires the proper "leaning" of the pin.



Loren, it is not an obligation, really not, just a facility some of us use, first lightly, then more and more agressively in time.

The leaning of the pin is used to keep the tension equilibrium while lowering counterclockwise, the pin is there a torque reserve due to leaning.

Trading that for the same provided by the twist of the pin clears the picture definitively, in my case. mostly adopted that because of the wear I noticed on blocks.

PS some bending may remain, but is minimal - minimalized
Lever orientation does half of the job in that regard


I still maintain that it is impossible to turn the pin without also bending it, whether one realizes it or not. The only way, as I said, is a lever that applies pure torque only and the only such lever I know of in existence would be the Reyburn grand cyberhammer.

With a traditional lever, the pin will twist AND bend before it turns. Setting the pin involves both untwisting and unbending. I don't see any way around it.

Now, there are positions and techniques that can make the bending work against you instead of for you, and you can bend in directions that can cause unstable tunings or more pitch change than necessary when manipulating the pin, but as long as a metal pin is imbedded in a pin block, and as long as that pin is being manipulated by a traditional tuning lever, that pin is going to bend as a necessary part of the process of manipulating it.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2081295 - 05/12/13 10:14 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Yes I did not see no bending occur, "reading" and mastering it is important. I just state that you can obtain more twist than bend, with similar intentions.

I have seen enough tuners pushing hard on their lever in direction of the strings; then it ios not only the string that bend, also the bushing compress, and the block takes a lot of pressure.

All is in the proportions.

We also can use the 800 N of the string torque as a "support" for the pin as it counter the torque we apply.

If the lever is hold on the right side when adding tension, our pull apply directly on the wire and the pressure in the pinblock is located in the opposite region of the pin's bed.


Edited by Olek (05/12/13 10:18 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081311 - 05/12/13 10:37 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1803
Loc: London, England
Oh dear, since last i was here there has been some retreating into comfortable corners and some battening down of the minds.

I am talking of minimising unwanted movements of the pin and the absolutists are monopolising the conversation.

Try this one; assuming for a moment that Loren is correct, which position of the lever produces flagpoling that has the least effect on the tension of the string?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2081325 - 05/12/13 11:02 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I speak as someone who was taught correctly, made forays into alternate techniques for various reasons and returned to solid techniques.

Max is not a physicist. However, in practice, he tried to understand the details of the "behavior" of tuning pin. Maxim came to a deep conviction that for verticals (9-12) and (3-6) for grand piano is the best method of keeping a pitch on long time. We need large evidence against it. Max willing to admit it's not correct, if someone proves otherwise.


There is sometime a long period (in your case very long) where the tuner is afraid of the pin, , and afraid of the string.
Will it bend ? will it break ? will it twist ?

every minutes to think about it. Only critique and everyday practice will be able to approve the tuner in his good actions with the pin


Edited by Maximillyan (05/12/13 11:03 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081329 - 05/12/13 11:10 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
What RxD said ..... says pretty much all that needs to be said wink

Debate only seems to add to the confusion. And then there's youtube. Clearly some of these "experts" aren't going anywhere soon.

Everybody technician has the right to seek yourself tuning method lever. Keep it's left side or right with...
The main thing that it was his intelligent choise. Make the truth can only be when there is a choice of different methods. "Separate the wheat from the chaff" (rxd)

YouTube only help it's. Doubt is the foundation of the movement to harmony


so long as we recognize that the client fee is not "funding" and his or her piano is not our laboratory.

As a lab, we do not have to use the piano client. Expect anything grand opportunity to do your experiments on junk piano
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2081331 - 05/12/13 11:14 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: rxd
Oh dear, since last i was here there has been some retreating into comfortable corners and some battening down of the minds.

I am talking of minimising unwanted movements of the pin and the absolutists are monopolising the conversation.

Try this one; assuming for a moment that Loren is correct, which position of the lever produces flagpoling that has the least effect on the tension of the string?


Loren is correct. There will always be a side load (bending moment) on a pin caused by using a traditional tuner hammer. Reducing the length of the tuning tip and reducing the length of the shank will reduce but never eliminate bending the pin.

Top
#2081333 - 05/12/13 11:22 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I look at it this way. As long as one is using a traditional lever, flagpoling is a way of life and cannot be eliminated. The point is to use it to your advantage. Flagpoling is not always the enemy. In fact, how many of us use a final nudge to "bend" the pin to get the string that final cent or two? In other words, that final "leaning" of the pin. [Emphasis added]


Not me, if i can humanly help it. Force is being applied to both sides of the hammer, and the hand-arm system is moving in an arc supported by the fingertips on the top of the pinblock, so the emphasis can be on rotation alone.

Edit: As for setting the pin, I do use a slight reverse motion as a last step to untwist the pin. But, I don't need to also unbend it.

Uncomfortable? Yes.

Probably damaging to the hand? Yes.

Minimal pin bending? Absolutely.


But the final act of setting also requires the proper "leaning" of the pin.



Loren, it is not an obligation, really not, just a facility some of us use, first lightly, then more and more agressively in time.

The leaning of the pin is used to keep the tension equilibrium while lowering counterclockwise, the pin is there a torque reserve due to leaning.

Trading that for the same provided by the twist of the pin clears the picture definitively, in my case. mostly adopted that because of the wear I noticed on blocks.

PS some bending may remain, but is minimal - minimalized
Lever orientation does half of the job in that regard

With a traditional lever, the pin will twist AND bend before it turns. Setting the pin involves both untwisting and unbending. I don't see any way around it.

Now, there are positions and techniques that can make the bending work against you instead of for you, and you can bend in directions that can cause unstable tunings or more pitch change than necessary when manipulating the pin, but as long as a metal pin is imbedded in a pin block, and as long as that pin is being manipulated by a traditional tuning lever, that pin is going to bend as a necessary part of the process of manipulating it.

Yes,Loren D, it's so. you can not avoid the pin not bend during a tuning. However, you can minimize negative effects if use the method (9-12)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2081334 - 05/12/13 11:23 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1803
Loc: London, England
I'll deal with Lauren's point in good time. First we must understand which position of the tuning lever if handled sloppily enough to produce excessive flagpoling (bending is different, it takes brute force to bend a pin) will produce flagpoling that has the least effect on the string tension?? It's not a trick question and I am dealing with the original question of the thread first.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
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