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#2081346 - 05/12/13 11:36 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek


We also can use the 800 N of the string torque as a "support" for the pin as it counter the torque we apply.

If the lever is hold on the right side when adding tension, our pull apply directly on the wire and the pressure in the pinblock is located in the opposite region of the pin's bed.

Regardless of the exact calculations you have entered in favor of the position of the lever right side this is an unscientific justification strong of springs. Lever on the right can only increase the pressure on the pin. In this case, the bending t.pin inevitable.
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#2081349 - 05/12/13 11:39 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Does anyone remember how it was explained?

it how?
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A=440
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#2081350 - 05/12/13 11:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mwm]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: rxd
Oh dear, since last i was here there has been some retreating into comfortable corners and some battening down of the minds.

I am talking of minimising unwanted movements of the pin and the absolutists are monopolising the conversation.

Try this one; assuming for a moment that Loren is correct, which position of the lever produces flagpoling that has the least effect on the tension of the string?

but never eliminate bending the pin.

can why not. Meter long lever handle and minimal pressure on it Tune a piano not a day but a week. 3 pin in hour
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A=440
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#2081351 - 05/12/13 11:51 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek


We also can use the 800 N of the string torque as a "support" for the pin as it counter the torque we apply.

If the lever is hold on the right side when adding tension, our pull apply directly on the wire and the pressure in the pinblock is located in the opposite region of the pin's bed.

Regardless of the exact calculations you have entered in favor of the position of the lever right side this is an unscientific justification strong of springs. Lever on the right can only increase the pressure on the pin. In this case, the bending t.pin inevitable.


I said that for grand pianos - I dont care much of that when raising the string and I correct it a little anyway.
I also do that more franckly on pianos with bushing to support the pin. Open blocks are manipulated nearer of 14:00 for raising.

Did you try to really bend a pin in a vice, whit a tuning lever on it ? the force needed is WAY much more than the one to tune, hopefully.

The tuning pin is more or less floating between the lever and the string torque when you use a right posture with the lever to raise.
It allow to read the maximum torque that the pin is able to give, without being disturbed by pinblock friction.

The only problem is that it is still retained at its bottom, so the the top twist, then the bottom. (of course there is some level of springing toward the tuner then.

Now to set the pin that is a different matter .

Now if a tuner use a technique that make waving motions on the pin, the metal certainly may get a little hot and softer after some time , and bending , even minimal, may happen within the pin.

When the pin is forced to twist on itself, it probably need a little time to spring back.

Anyway... pin elasticity is way higher in its axis of rotation than with its bending.




Edited by Olek (05/12/13 11:54 AM)
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#2081353 - 05/12/13 11:56 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mwm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mwm
Originally Posted By: rxd
Oh dear, since last i was here there has been some retreating into comfortable corners and some battening down of the minds.

I am talking of minimising unwanted movements of the pin and the absolutists are monopolising the conversation.

Try this one; assuming for a moment that Loren is correct, which position of the lever produces flagpoling that has the least effect on the tension of the string?


Loren is correct. There will always be a side load (bending moment) on a pin caused by using a traditional tuner hammer. Reducing the length of the tuning tip and reducing the length of the shank will reduce but never eliminate bending the pin.


The way and the orientation you hold the lever allow to control that if you want to avoid it. When adding torque slowly even bending is not a problem. Not all pins / pinblocks bend the same


Edited by Olek (05/12/13 11:58 AM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081367 - 05/12/13 12:20 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek


We also can use the 800 N of the string torque as a "support" for the pin as it counter the torque we apply.

If the lever is hold on the right side when adding tension, our pull apply directly on the wire and the pressure in the pinblock is located in the opposite region of the pin's bed.

Regardless of the exact calculations you have entered in favor of the position of the lever right side this is an unscientific justification strong of springs. Lever on the right can only increase the pressure on the pin. In this case, the bending t.pin inevitable.


I said that for grand pianos - I dont care much of that when raising the string and I correct it a little anyway.
I also do that more franckly on pianos with bushing to support the pin. Open blocks are manipulated nearer of 14:00 for raising.

Did you try to really bend a pin in a vice, whit a tuning lever on it ? the force needed is WAY much more than the one to tune, hopefully.

I did not do. I saw your pictures,Isaac. But what pin more "floats" in the hole than to bent obvious.


Edited by Maximillyan (05/12/13 12:21 PM)
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#2081383 - 05/12/13 01:04 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
On a vertical, I would say that holding the lever at 12:00 causes the least change in pitch due to bending the pin. At 10:00 using the left hand, or 2:00 using the right hand, I would say it would have the most change due to the fact that the pin is bending in line with the string, changing its pitch.

But my point still is that bending/flexing/flagpoling the pin (whatever you want to call it) is a necessary part of manipulating the pin. It can't be eliminated; only tamed and used to work in our favor.
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#2081396 - 05/12/13 01:46 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek


We also can use the 800 N of the string torque as a "support" for the pin as it counter the torque we apply.

If the lever is hold on the right side when adding tension, our pull apply directly on the wire and the pressure in the pinblock is located in the opposite region of the pin's bed.

Regardless of the exact calculations you have entered in favor of the position of the lever right side this is an unscientific justification strong of springs. Lever on the right can only increase the pressure on the pin. In this case, the bending t.pin inevitable.


I said that for grand pianos - I dont care much of that when raising the string and I correct it a little anyway.
I also do that more franckly on pianos with bushing to support the pin. Open blocks are manipulated nearer of 14:00 for raising.

Did you try to really bend a pin in a vice, whit a tuning lever on it ? the force needed is WAY much more than the one to tune, hopefully.

I did not do. I saw your pictures,Isaac. But what pin more "floats" in the hole than to bent obvious.


Once the pin begin to move on its bottom , I really feel it "floating", because I doubt I have raised the tension so much then.
Incidentally, when the lever is hold at 14:00 15:00 on a grand, the upper part of the pin is unlocked immediately, so you are working in close contact with the bottom of the pin at the moment it begins to move.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081398 - 05/12/13 01:56 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
On a vertical, I would say that holding the lever at 12:00 causes the least change in pitch due to bending the pin. At 10:00 using the left hand, or 2:00 using the right hand, I would say it would have the most change due to the fact that the pin is bending in line with the string, changing its pitch.

But my point still is that bending/flexing/flagpoling the pin (whatever you want to call it) is a necessary part of manipulating the pin. It can't be eliminated; only tamed and used to work in our favor. [Emphasis added]


This is too all-encompassing a statement. Unless you have tried and mastered all methods that all tuners use, I simply don't understand how you can make this statement. Even engineers, after all the theory and calculations done by teams, will build and test an actual prototype before committing to production. They know that their theory and calculations can take them only so far.


Maximillyan,

Isaac has hit the nail squarely on the head. There are all types of pins and pinblocks. IMO, your best bet is to master many diverse approaches .. One size does not fit all. You want to be able to choose from many different weapons in your arsenal of technique.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2081493 - 05/12/13 05:46 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D
On a vertical, I would say that holding the lever at 12:00 causes the least change in pitch due to bending the pin. At 10:00 using the left hand, or 2:00 using the right hand, I would say it would have the most change due to the fact that the pin is bending in line with the string, changing its pitch.

But my point still is that bending/flexing/flagpoling the pin (whatever you want to call it) is a necessary part of manipulating the pin. It can't be eliminated; only tamed and used to work in our favor. [Emphasis added]


This is too all-encompassing a statement. Unless you have tried and mastered all methods that all tuners use, I simply don't understand how you can make this statement. Even engineers, after all the theory and calculations done by teams, will build and test an actual prototype before committing to production. They know that their theory and calculations can take them only so far.


Joe, unless you are applying pure torque, i.e., twisting only, as you would do with a screwdriver, you are applying pressure to one side of the pin as you are twisting.

If you put the lever at 12:00 on a vertical and pull to the right as to raise pitch with the right hand, you are pulling the pin in the direction of the your pull while the pin is at the same time twisting clockwise. If instead you are pushing to raise pitch, same thing: you are pushing the pin in the direction of your push (flagpoling) while it's twisting. There really is no way around it.
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http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2081527 - 05/12/13 06:58 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Loren, I think there is... by using the thumb and using great physical strength.

I would suggest trying the method I posted.

The first several times, use either the long or extra-long tip. This will exaggeratedly show you where all the various problems are that you will need to correct for with you arm/hand motion.

When you go to a shorter tip, use one that is slightly loose on the pin. Keep the pin mounted in such a way that it will wiggle in all directions as you rotate only by moving the arm-hand system in an arc... that way, you can be reasonably assured that you are not bending the pin. With a tight tip, it is too easy to bend the pin without realizing it. With a loose tip, you will know if you are starting to bend in any direction at any point during the rotation of the pin because you will fell the tip make contact with the side of the pin... You will know if the hammer wobbled as you rotated it.

Ironically, this is how a loose-fitting tip can give you better control over the pin than a tight-fitting tip. You get instant feedback about whether you are bending the pin as you rotate the pin. You just keep the tuning tip centered so that it would wobble in any direction.

Edit: You want the pin to be engaged by only the rotational force from the tip, not side-to-side force, nor up-and -down force.

Loren, we are sort of quasi-semi-local to each other. I know that you are a very good tech, though we've never actually met. But, I think you are over-reaching when you just dismiss the notion of preventing bending.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/12/13 07:11 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2081552 - 05/12/13 07:49 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Joe, I'm certain that you're a good tech also. In fact, I know you are. smile Please don't feel I am in any way discounting or dismissing your abilities by my position on this, because nothing could be further from my intention!

I'm familiar with the method you're talking about, and actually, I started tuning left handed back when I started tuning in '84. Eventually I switched to the right hand. I remember early on, reading Professional Piano Tuning by W. Dean Howell, where he advocated what he called the "rest arm technique," whereby the tuner would use the left hand on verticals. He would rest his fingers on the top of the piano, have the lever at around 11:00 and resting between his thumb and index finger with the thumb wrapped around it, and then use the "crawling" technique of his fingers to move the pin. The hand in this method was very close to the pin. I used this method exclusively when I was beginning tuning and did it for years. Clearly the pin is being "pulled" upward while turning, and had to be pulled a bit back down in setting.

I'm not knocking your technique, Joe. And what you're doing may be different than what I described. I still feel though that as long as any side load is being applied to the pin, the pin is going to react to that force; even minimally.
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#2081591 - 05/12/13 09:32 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?
_________________________
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2081598 - 05/12/13 09:46 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Loren, Thank you for the very kind words. They are much appreciated smile

I am impressed with you knowledge of this technique. It does sound very similar to the method I am describing. When I was a student, we were shown several methods, but they were pushing the impact method at that time. For whatever reason, this method just clicked more for me. Maybe I'm just doomed to be contrarian my whole life lol.

I think the book you are referring to "might" be around here "somewhere". (Edit: I think it's one of those books I bought and planned to get to 'someday," but someday never came.) Do you recall if he also advocated using a loose-fitting tip with this method?

I don't think a loose tip would be an advantage with any other method that I know of. But with this specific method, it does seem to give very good immediate feedback as to the hammer/pin relationship. In fact, when I finally realized the advantages of a loose tip after being in business a few years, my tuning stability immediately skyrocketed way beyond what it was.

Thanks again,
-Joe smile


Edited by daniokeeper (05/12/13 10:14 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2081642 - 05/13/13 12:47 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
On a vertical, I would say that holding the lever at 12:00 causes the least change in pitch due to bending the pin. At 10:00 using the left hand, or 2:00 using the right hand, I would say it would have the most change due to the fact that the pin is bending in line with the string, changing its pitch.

But my point still is that bending/flexing/flagpoling the pin (whatever you want to call it) is a necessary part of manipulating the pin. It can't be eliminated; only tamed and used to work in our favor.

Dear Loren D,When it comes verticals about. I have allowed myself to disagree with you. From (9 up to 12) - YES. But in another way (2:00), this is additional power load, which causes pin bend.
In the area of (9-12 up) is minimized optimal pressure on t. pin. as a result there is only a smooth forward motion of pin in the hole. It should also be noted that the pin has a thread-knurling. Its presence provides two positions of a pin movement (screwing and wringing). Friction is ensured only due thread-knurling of pin with wooden grooves of hole. If we twisting the pin (from 12:00 down), the additional load of the string will be it's(wooden grooves of hole) ruined. As a result pin lose frictions soon. After piano tuning method (from 12:00 down) it would be worse to ensure the pin's sustainability
_________________________
A=440
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#2081646 - 05/13/13 12:56 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
when I finally realized the advantages of a loose tip after being in business a few years, my tuning stability immediately skyrocketed way beyond what it was.

daniokeeper,I ask you to clarify what was meant.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081666 - 05/13/13 02:18 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
daniokeeper,I ask you to clarify what was meant.


Maximillyan,

I was referring only to a specific method that Loren and I discussed. In my opinion, having a loose tip is only advantageous when using the method shown in the following photographs. It probably is not helpful with other methods, including the one you showed in this thread.

Edit: I realize that sometimes languages can be confusing. By loose tip, I mean that the tuning lever is not tight on the tuning pin... That the tuning lever can wobble after connecting to the pin.

-Joe smile

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8728283834/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727165177/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727165019/in/photostream

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8043014@N06/8727164441/in/photostream


Edited by daniokeeper (05/13/13 02:29 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2081670 - 05/13/13 02:33 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?


Sort of... The lever should ideally be in line with the string segment that goes from the tuning pin to the nut, assuming there is no other good reason for using a different angle (player pianos, square grands, etc.).
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2081674 - 05/13/13 02:43 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
[quote=Maximillyan]daniokeeper,I ask you to clarify what was meant.


Edit: I realize that sometimes languages can be confusing. By loose tip, I mean that the tuning lever is not tight on the tuning pin... That the tuning lever can wobble after connecting to the pin.

Joe, if I understand you correctly ... it means that the "star" (head) of hammer has some backlash “luft” with a pin. Is not it?


Edited by Maximillyan (05/13/13 02:45 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081691 - 05/13/13 03:20 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
At 10:00 using the left hand,

Max use (10:00 and 11:00)right hand,when T-bar level(left)
http://youtu.be/IAAcNGA4XeI
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081695 - 05/13/13 03:34 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
RXD, I guess it is impossible !
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081697 - 05/13/13 03:40 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Joe, if I understand you correctly ... it means that the "star" (head) of hammer has some backlash “luft” with a pin. Is not it?


Yes. But, not with your method... only with a different method.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2081701 - 05/13/13 03:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Joe, if I understand you correctly ... it means that the "star" (head) of hammer has some backlash “luft” with a pin. Is not it?

only with a different method.

Joe,I see you
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2081702 - 05/13/13 03:53 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Cannot follow the audio. Are you suggesting this technique for left-handed tuning or right-handed? In the demo you appear to use both.

HI, bkw58
The fundamental point is that the crank rod wrench (classic hammer) only moves up from 9:00 to 12 hours! And only up! To keep the wood's part of the bush and a pin holes for long time!
Here Russian variant text of an article:

Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner (from 9 by 12)




Конь так не ходит, товарищ гроссмейстер.
А как, по-вашему, ходит конь?
(Один из диалогов Великого Комбинатора)

А, ключик-то, ты Максим держишь не правильно
Почему не правильно?
(Из разговора настройщика с заказчиком)
[color:#CC0000][/color]
Однажды я пришёл на заказ и, как обычно начал исправлять «разъехавшиеся» ноты в хорах. Надо сказать, что обычная практика моей повседневной рутинной настройки мало отличается в каких-либо особых изысках. Я вынужден не использовать, присланный безвозмездно профессиональный Г-образный ключ, так как в основной своей массе пианино, которые нужно настроить, уже давно исчерпали своей ресурс и весьма трудно работать, скорее малоэффективно, таким ключом. Поэтому приходиться изворачиваться и добиваться определённой устойчивой фиксации колков при помощи Т-бара.
В обычной и повседневной жизни настройщика-ремонтировщика, Т-бар используется, лишь для выкручивания колков при их износе и не способности держать определённое натяжение струн. Однако мне очень часто приходиться использовать этот ключ для темперации звуков. Почему? Да, потому, что если рассмотреть работу настройщика, а точнее то, как он работает Г-образным ключом, то эта всегда стандартная процедура, а именно, приложение силы по часовой стрелке (от 12 час. к 5 час.) правой рукой на ручку ключа. При этом различаются некоторые вариации положения его руки по отношению к рычагу. Правую руку настройщик по локоть кладёт на ручку ключа, кисть сжимающая рычаг находится ближе к основанию. В таком положении он прилагает некоторую силу, чтобы сдвинуть колок по вращательной по часовой стрелке вниз. Иногда он может сместить кисть, даже обхватывать ручку кистью снизу, то есть, как этого требует процесс.
Вариантов приложения силы, надо сказать ни так уж много, но, каждый мастер использует свою, особую, удобную, только ему методику. При этом не всегда мастер, лишь даёт силовую нагрузку на рукоятку ключа по вращательной. Иногда, если колок не хочет «садиться на место» настройщик гнёт колок, расклинивает его в посадочном месте, бьёт ладонью по рукоятке. То есть силовая нагрузка работает по направлению к чугунной раме, либо прямо противоположно от неё.
Но вернёмся к началу моего повествования, дело в том, что я никогда особо не размышлял, почему настройщики именно, так держат ключ. Это казалось для меня аксиомой. Большинство настройщиков «правши», значит с точки зрения эргономики, рукоятка ключа расположена справа. Правой рукой мы прилагаем силу и вращаем на заданный тон наш колок. Но следует заметить очень существенную деталь, что конструкция колкового механизма фортепиано традиционно имеет правостороннее натяжение струны. Этим, кстати, объясняется и то, что и конструкция колка, в процессе эволюции в фортепианостроении, обрела такую же правостороннюю резьбу-насечку.
Поэтому струна (защемлённая балка с вращательным основанием вверху) закреплена на чугунной раме так, что силовая нагрузка от её натяжения действует на колок таким образом, что разупрочняет деревянное посадочное место в пробке снизу. Пробка это деревянная вставка в отверстии в чугунной рамы, в которую закреплён колок. Далее, за чугунной рамой, располагается колковая доска. В отверстии этой колковой доски колок разупрочняет посадочное место, но уже в верхней её части. Из этого следует вывод, что любая струна в фортепиано, изначально своей силой натяжения приносит износ, ещё даже не будучи зафиксированной на нужный тон. Это её естественное положение, давить на колок вниз.
Так к чему же я всё это, подробно описываю? Дело в том, что наблюдавший за мною клиент, очень даже хорошо понимающий устройство фиксации струны (инженер-технолог одного из оборонных заводов г. Уральска) и натолкнул меня на мысль о неправильной работе ключом. Я очень ему за это благодарен! Когда он подробно пояснил, что он имеет ввиду, рукоятка, а я в тот момент работал как раз Г-образным ключом, должна работать иначе, у меня был шок!
Как было уже сказано ранее, обычная практика это положение рукотятки Г-образного ключа справа, сверху вниз. Что же происходит, когда мы так работаем? Колок в состоянии покоя, когда мы ещё не сдвинули его, уже под воздействием силы струны продавил посадочное (деревянное) место, сформировав, таким образом из круга эллипс. Теперь мы даём дополнительную силовую нагрузку рукояткой ключа справа, к уже имеющейся силе давления на колок. То есть без злого умысла настройщика, происходит следующее, колок даже в новом инструменте подвергается не только вращающему моменту, но и изгибается, возникает изгибающий момент. Таким образом, при классическом методе настройки, настройщик значительно сокращает ресурсную базу инструмента. В момент натяжения струн, за счёт увеличения силы трения, которая является следствием появления изгибающего момента, он разупрочняет деревянную часть посадочного места колка (в передней его части внизу, а в задней – вверху) и, как следствие необоснованный износ посадочного места и невозможность обеспечения стабильности строя. Для новых инструментов это, может быть и не совсем актуально и, может быть, незаметно, но, отнюдь, не способствует сохранению его ресурса.
Более того, многие мастера, при настройке изношенного инструмента, вместо проведения мероприятий по обеспечению надёжного сочленения «колок-посадочное место», с целью экономии времени, сил и средств, созданием изгибающего момента пользуются для окончательной фиксации колка, они как бы расклинивают колок в его посадочном месте, что тоже не щадит посадочного места и вносит свою лепту в дополнительный износ. Можно только предполагать, как долго такой инструмент будет держать строй.
Это не значит, что всем настройщикам нужно в одночасье перестать настраивать подобной методикой, однако, если имеется старый инструмент и необходимо его настраивать, нужно поменять привычную процедуру на прямо противоположную. А, именно, рукоятка ключа должна располагаться слева, работать придётся левой рукой. Я теперь всегда буду работать левой. При этом положение рукоятки при вращении, должно быть (от 9час. до 12час.), рукоятка ключа работает снизу вверх, как бы приподнимая колок в процессе натяжения струны. Таким образом, мы практически полностью исключаем изгибающий момент, действующий на колок, колок движется более плавно, усилие, безусловно, меньшее, за счёт сокращения площади соприкосновения колка с его посадочным местом и, соответственно, уменьшения силы сопротивления (трения), что, в свою очередь, располагает к концентрации на звуковые ощущения при выполнении операции вращения. Все неудобства, связанные с данной процедурой настройки будут компенсированы, как мне кажется, более стабильным и долговременным строем фортепиано.
Подобную методику настройки пианино левой рукой можно применить и Т-образному ключу (Т-бару). При этом работать не на две руки, а расположить вороток ключа в запястье правой или левой руки, как будет удобно настройщику. Движение руки с (9 час. до 12 час.). По сути, это уже не движение воротка ключа, а фактически движение за счёт силы пальцев. Безусловно, это неудобно и трудно, но всё же правильно с точки зрения сохранения рабочего ресурса пианино. Придя к пониманию подобной операции, я предположил, что тот, кто впервые установил струны, скорее всего на клавикорд или клавесин, возможно был левша. Потому, что современный Г- образный ключ сделан вопреки всем законам физики, в его основе заложена, лишь эргономика, удобство работы для «нормального» настройщика. Смею предположить, что, если бы была возможность реализовать проект по созданию «правильной установки струн на фортепиано», необходимо бы было установить колки с левосторонней резьбой и установить струны с возможностью крутить их против часовой стрелки. Тогда бы «и волки были бы сыты, и овцы целы», а то сейчас, если применить эту пословицу к процессу настройки, то справедливо только утверждение о сытости волков, овцы, к сожалению, целы далеко не все.


AT last is is good that you get a sense that now that those pianos have been made "untuneable" by bad tuners and abscence of real tuning, one have to do something not to send the remaining friction to trash.

It should be a little late however.

I have seen a few low grade pianos in Belarus, and they have been tuned correctly since the start. they hold pitch and where musically enjoyeable 50 years later.

BECAUSE IT IS EASY NOT TO KILL THE BLOCK IF THE TUNER KNOW WHAT HE DOES AND IF HE DOES NOT HURRY TOO MUCH

I am not saying you have made those piano untuneable today, but they will certainly not gain any tuning stability since you understand how to have the pin and the string set correctly.

If you want to tune left hand at last use the lever 11:00.

You will probably not lean much here in the kindergarden anyway.

Many People reinvent the wheel , but when they present their work you see the control is not good on tone, nor possibility on the lever.

But they believe they are right, that is the right of anyone to believe he is right.

The few professional tuners that are yet on the forum know what it is about.

Greetings




Edited by Olek (05/13/13 04:13 AM)
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#2081703 - 05/13/13 04:09 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
BTW on an old piano, with a light hammer, you have the pin floating in the block as I said above and you will not add wear.

On the contrary you will if you are lucky, obtain a raise in torque, if you can brake a little the tunin pin, be it on the ovalised high part of the hole. anyway when you begin to leave the pin a little active ( the string is active I cannot se why tuners are obliged to think the pin can be "neutral" it never will be, at worst the pin is actived by the tension of the wire.

If one understand that the tension of the wire is used to lock the pin in the block he understand the basis of pin setting.

I cannot understand, BTW why so little tuners explain how they arrive at that. the process itself is pictured on the first pages of "many strokes by Ken Burton".

Then one have to understand how to get there.

The pin blocks because it is pulled out of its rotational axe by the string.
The top of the hole, in the block (outside part) is never used to block the pin, as the stress come from the other side.

EVentually when the pin is a little torqued within the block more surface is used for the grip that when it stop "naturally"

THen a little of the upper portion in the hole,(upright pianos) that usually is not used for that, serve to maintain the pin.

That may be one of the reasons why even old "untuneable" pianos can get some firmness that way.

When you do that on a normal piano you have very little to do later.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081704 - 05/13/13 04:09 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1526
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Cannot follow the audio. Are you suggesting this technique for left-handed tuning or right-handed? In the demo you appear to use both.

HI, bkw58
The fundamental point is that the crank rod wrench (classic hammer) only moves up from 9:00 to 12 hours! And only up! To keep the wood's part of the bush and a pin holes for long time!
Here Russian variant text of an article:

Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner (from 9 by 12)




Конь так не ходит, товарищ гроссмейстер.
А как, по-вашему, ходит конь?
(Один из диалогов Великого Комбинатора)

А, ключик-то, ты Максим держишь не правильно
Почему не правильно?
(Из разговора настройщика с заказчиком)
[color:#CC0000][/color]
Однажды я пришёл на заказ и, как обычно начал исправлять «разъехавшиеся» ноты в хорах. Надо сказать, что обычная практика моей повседневной рутинной настройки мало отличается в каких-либо особых изысках. Я вынужден не использовать, присланный безвозмездно профессиональный Г-образный ключ, так как в основной своей массе пианино, которые нужно настроить, уже давно исчерпали своей ресурс и весьма трудно работать, скорее малоэффективно, таким ключом. Поэтому приходиться изворачиваться и добиваться определённой устойчивой фиксации колков при помощи Т-бара.
В обычной и повседневной жизни настройщика-ремонтировщика, Т-бар используется, лишь для выкручивания колков при их износе и не способности держать определённое натяжение струн. Однако мне очень часто приходиться использовать этот ключ для темперации звуков. Почему? Да, потому, что если рассмотреть работу настройщика, а точнее то, как он работает Г-образным ключом, то эта всегда стандартная процедура, а именно, приложение силы по часовой стрелке (от 12 час. к 5 час.) правой рукой на ручку ключа. При этом различаются некоторые вариации положения его руки по отношению к рычагу. Правую руку настройщик по локоть кладёт на ручку ключа, кисть сжимающая рычаг находится ближе к основанию. В таком положении он прилагает некоторую силу, чтобы сдвинуть колок по вращательной по часовой стрелке вниз. Иногда он может сместить кисть, даже обхватывать ручку кистью снизу, то есть, как этого требует процесс.
Вариантов приложения силы, надо сказать ни так уж много, но, каждый мастер использует свою, особую, удобную, только ему методику. При этом не всегда мастер, лишь даёт силовую нагрузку на рукоятку ключа по вращательной. Иногда, если колок не хочет «садиться на место» настройщик гнёт колок, расклинивает его в посадочном месте, бьёт ладонью по рукоятке. То есть силовая нагрузка работает по направлению к чугунной раме, либо прямо противоположно от неё.
Но вернёмся к началу моего повествования, дело в том, что я никогда особо не размышлял, почему настройщики именно, так держат ключ. Это казалось для меня аксиомой. Большинство настройщиков «правши», значит с точки зрения эргономики, рукоятка ключа расположена справа. Правой рукой мы прилагаем силу и вращаем на заданный тон наш колок. Но следует заметить очень существенную деталь, что конструкция колкового механизма фортепиано традиционно имеет правостороннее натяжение струны. Этим, кстати, объясняется и то, что и конструкция колка, в процессе эволюции в фортепианостроении, обрела такую же правостороннюю резьбу-насечку.
Поэтому струна (защемлённая балка с вращательным основанием вверху) закреплена на чугунной раме так, что силовая нагрузка от её натяжения действует на колок таким образом, что разупрочняет деревянное посадочное место в пробке снизу. Пробка это деревянная вставка в отверстии в чугунной рамы, в которую закреплён колок. Далее, за чугунной рамой, располагается колковая доска. В отверстии этой колковой доски колок разупрочняет посадочное место, но уже в верхней её части. Из этого следует вывод, что любая струна в фортепиано, изначально своей силой натяжения приносит износ, ещё даже не будучи зафиксированной на нужный тон. Это её естественное положение, давить на колок вниз.
Так к чему же я всё это, подробно описываю? Дело в том, что наблюдавший за мною клиент, очень даже хорошо понимающий устройство фиксации струны (инженер-технолог одного из оборонных заводов г. Уральска) и натолкнул меня на мысль о неправильной работе ключом. Я очень ему за это благодарен! Когда он подробно пояснил, что он имеет ввиду, рукоятка, а я в тот момент работал как раз Г-образным ключом, должна работать иначе, у меня был шок!
Как было уже сказано ранее, обычная практика это положение рукотятки Г-образного ключа справа, сверху вниз. Что же происходит, когда мы так работаем? Колок в состоянии покоя, когда мы ещё не сдвинули его, уже под воздействием силы струны продавил посадочное (деревянное) место, сформировав, таким образом из круга эллипс. Теперь мы даём дополнительную силовую нагрузку рукояткой ключа справа, к уже имеющейся силе давления на колок. То есть без злого умысла настройщика, происходит следующее, колок даже в новом инструменте подвергается не только вращающему моменту, но и изгибается, возникает изгибающий момент. Таким образом, при классическом методе настройки, настройщик значительно сокращает ресурсную базу инструмента. В момент натяжения струн, за счёт увеличения силы трения, которая является следствием появления изгибающего момента, он разупрочняет деревянную часть посадочного места колка (в передней его части внизу, а в задней – вверху) и, как следствие необоснованный износ посадочного места и невозможность обеспечения стабильности строя. Для новых инструментов это, может быть и не совсем актуально и, может быть, незаметно, но, отнюдь, не способствует сохранению его ресурса.
Более того, многие мастера, при настройке изношенного инструмента, вместо проведения мероприятий по обеспечению надёжного сочленения «колок-посадочное место», с целью экономии времени, сил и средств, созданием изгибающего момента пользуются для окончательной фиксации колка, они как бы расклинивают колок в его посадочном месте, что тоже не щадит посадочного места и вносит свою лепту в дополнительный износ. Можно только предполагать, как долго такой инструмент будет держать строй.
Это не значит, что всем настройщикам нужно в одночасье перестать настраивать подобной методикой, однако, если имеется старый инструмент и необходимо его настраивать, нужно поменять привычную процедуру на прямо противоположную. А, именно, рукоятка ключа должна располагаться слева, работать придётся левой рукой. Я теперь всегда буду работать левой. При этом положение рукоятки при вращении, должно быть (от 9час. до 12час.), рукоятка ключа работает снизу вверх, как бы приподнимая колок в процессе натяжения струны. Таким образом, мы практически полностью исключаем изгибающий момент, действующий на колок, колок движется более плавно, усилие, безусловно, меньшее, за счёт сокращения площади соприкосновения колка с его посадочным местом и, соответственно, уменьшения силы сопротивления (трения), что, в свою очередь, располагает к концентрации на звуковые ощущения при выполнении операции вращения. Все неудобства, связанные с данной процедурой настройки будут компенсированы, как мне кажется, более стабильным и долговременным строем фортепиано.
Подобную методику настройки пианино левой рукой можно применить и Т-образному ключу (Т-бару). При этом работать не на две руки, а расположить вороток ключа в запястье правой или левой руки, как будет удобно настройщику. Движение руки с (9 час. до 12 час.). По сути, это уже не движение воротка ключа, а фактически движение за счёт силы пальцев. Безусловно, это неудобно и трудно, но всё же правильно с точки зрения сохранения рабочего ресурса пианино. Придя к пониманию подобной операции, я предположил, что тот, кто впервые установил струны, скорее всего на клавикорд или клавесин, возможно был левша. Потому, что современный Г- образный ключ сделан вопреки всем законам физики, в его основе заложена, лишь эргономика, удобство работы для «нормального» настройщика. Смею предположить, что, если бы была возможность реализовать проект по созданию «правильной установки струн на фортепиано», необходимо бы было установить колки с левосторонней резьбой и установить струны с возможностью крутить их против часовой стрелки. Тогда бы «и волки были бы сыты, и овцы целы», а то сейчас, если применить эту пословицу к процессу настройки, то справедливо только утверждение о сытости волков, овцы, к сожалению, целы далеко не все.


AT last is is good that you get a sense that now that those pianos have been made "untuneable" by bad tuners and abscence of real tuning, one have to do something not to send the remaining friction to trash.
I am not saying you have made those piano untuneable today, but they will certainly not gain any tuning stability since you understand how to have the pin and the string set correctly.

You will probably not lean much here in the kindergarden anyway.

But they believe they are right, that is the right of anyone to believe he is right.

The few professional tuners that are yet on the forum know what it is about.

Dear Isaac, I really do not understand why you are so painfully react to the discussion that topic? If you are not satisfied, write constructive "NO". While I did not find them in your texts.
Regards, Max
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#2081707 - 05/13/13 04:23 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Joe, if I understand you correctly ... it means that the "star" (head) of hammer has some backlash “luft” with a pin. Is not it?

only with a different method.

Joe,I see you


Yes. Only one method I know of will benefit from a star head that is big for the tuning pin. All other methods, including your method, will probably not benefit.

-Joe smile
_________________________
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#2081717 - 05/13/13 04:59 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Put those damned pins and tuning pins in condition not to jump at any heavy keystroke, give the instrument a minimum color, and on the next tunings correct what have moved with seasonal changes.


All old pianos may even need only very few tunings, if they are just to be employed without too much exigence .

Unisons may move a little due to soundboard shape changing, but the pitch does not move usually.

As said RXD, on concert instruments , most of the time you have very little to do.

Why do you think instruments go out of tune ? if old instruments loose their stability, it is more important to voice them, as the wire will deform easily if they are solicited hardly by too hard hammers.

Make a gentle tone by tuning and voicing so there is less brutality on the piano.
Lear how to put a tuning pin and wire in a DEFINITIVE balance of torque, and maintain or rise that torque at each new tuning.

The absence of description on what happens during the tuning process, the very basic tonal results obtained at best on most of the videos shown on the net, shown clearly that( many "tuners" have not a good view of what they are aiming for.

Those Belarus tuners I have seen the job where using very standard techniques and they protected the pianos of their customers, so music lessons could be provided.

They make the effort to learn from people that know better, and it worked.

I was lucky to begin to learn in contact with good tuners, then on good pianos, but I was surprised to discover that musicality is universal,(with nuances) when people have some sensitivity.

Now declaring himself as an expert to reassure himself or to gain notoriety is an evident property of a part of that trade, mainly the less interesting one.

I finish making crude judgments on the whole profession based on what some show here, and I know it must be false, but I certainly wish to be reassured about that.












Edited by Olek (05/13/13 05:00 AM)
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#2081748 - 05/13/13 07:49 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?




What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.
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#2081757 - 05/13/13 08:11 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Guys, I recived recntly a record of a concert given with Louis Lortie and orchestra and the piano was tuned by a young (concert) tuner .

I will not tell for how long he tunes but you would be surprised.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p018w34z

I let you take all consequences of that, may be that would help to understand some of my comments.

Whenever we want models we want good ones. they are rare enough.

Of course, proximity with good musicians and good pianos is a big help for any wanting to be a top notch tuner.

The techniques availeable are in the end relatively limited, main condition asked is to have absolute firmness.
On an upright, the handle of the lever can be slap relatively strong without the note moving out of tune.
A string can be lifted with a hook.
If in complement of that an acoustical stability is provided between the 2 or 3 strings, then most of the job is done.

If added is a nice level of consonance and ghosting reactions from damped strings occur easily and cleanly, there is even a little more enlighting of tone color, and more pleasure for the pianist when he plays.

This is/was relatively rare that pianists find tuners providing all that, they often look surprised.

Today, with listening and correct thinking even novice tuners can raise in the quality of their work soon.

That was not the case for years, or the "secrets" where much protected.

Then, what I hear in many videos or recording where the tuner is fighting with beats or pitch and does not seem to try to make the instrument musicality availeable, make me think there is a problem in learning.

You can "tune the fundamental" and the piano will move from there thru "less resistance path" , unison wise, naturally.
But then chances are that the balance of tensions is not optimum in the front lenghts region.

And also that some moaning develops in tone.

Sometime it may relate to the tuner unable to apprehend the tone as if he was standing at a few meters from the piano.

Most often it relate to the absence of desire from the tuner, to learn something different.

I believe also that many tuners that play do not use a global perception of tone.

Some may even be pleased with a dry, square tone, that cannot really stay put but tend to warm in time so does not really create call backs (only disappointed pianists).

There is certainly a question related to exposition with good musicians and good pianos. If a tuner did not tune some grand concert pianos to learn the best, he may do its maximum to do so, proposing to tune for free, anything that could make a rise in quality, and also propose to be analysed by colleagues.

There are yet plenty of mediocre tuners that missed the opportunity to qualify their ears and body for first class work.

Unfortunately help is not easy to find in that regard.













ALl the best


Edited by Olek (05/13/13 10:21 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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