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#2081879 - 05/13/13 12:16 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
daniokeeper Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D

What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.



I totally agree. In fact, I'd even carry this a little further. An very experienced tuner...one who has been tuning for 30, 40, 50, or more years, could probably hang upside-down from the ceiling and still set the pin properly. That's because by this stage, you've learned how to compensate for pretty much anything.

All this business of hand position is more relevant for the younger techs. This discussion of hand position is more for their benefit, rather than ours.

Edit: You work to develop your technique, develop your technique, develop your technique. Then, the day comes when you transcend technique. It becomes internal, second-nature...part of who you are. (assuming I'm making any sense at all smile )


Edited by daniokeeper (05/13/13 01:12 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2081902 - 05/13/13 01:05 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1772
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D

What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.



I totally agree. In fact, I'd even carry this a little further. An very experienced tuner...one who has been tuning for 30, 40, 50, or more years, could probably hang upside-down from the ceiling and still set the pin properly. That's because by this stage, you've learned how to compensate for pretty much anything.

All this business of hand position is more relevant for the younger techs. This discussion of hand position is more for their benefit, rather than ours.



...and to love Newton's third law 2hearts
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2081929 - 05/13/13 01:53 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France




No not not, I think. Assuming correct guidance, good instruments and enough courage you can tune at concert level in not so long time .
:
Here a working link on that young tuner's work :

https://www.box.com/s/oh9hll6vu2qe4svphnb9

Many are loosing their time due to improper learning, me think.

Then, musicality, and having first class masters play a role of course...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2081931 - 05/13/13 01:58 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France
I may add... Curiosity , also, for others and how/why they do things a certain way. Be it in a totally different musical environment.

Curiosity is what stamp difference between people, to me.

Bein able to say "I am unsure" also, but then, if some try to help it may be interesting to try to understand.

Sorry if that sound like ranting, that is just my usual mood wink
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2082144 - 05/13/13 10:06 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D

What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.


Edit: You work to develop your technique, develop your technique, develop your technique. Then, the day comes when you transcend technique. It becomes internal, second-nature...part of who you are. (assuming I'm making any sense at all smile )

The main thing is second nature to not forgot that the laws of physics are undeniable.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2082296 - 05/14/13 07:18 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: rxd
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?




What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.


Sorry, Loren. I took a long break while composing that post and by the time I finished it and posted it things had moved along as they sometimes do here and my post happened to be directly after yours.
I apologise particularly since you had given the answer I was looking for and Max answered you defending his stance again, particularly since he had vowed to use 9-12 in perpetuity a couple of posts earlier. He has also admitted that he doesn't have the depth of experience to prove his stance in a practical way.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with since, at that point I had not mentioned pin setting.

Yes, Joe. I am very concerned that novice tuners don't get the wrong idea. It is possible to "set" a pin from any angle but who would be perverse enough to do that unless they really had to? Sometimes we do have to. (that huge vase on top of the grand or a microphone placement. To properly set a pin and keep constant track of the tension in the portion of the string between the pin and the speaking length while doing so ( necessary for rock solid tuning, in moveable tuning, leaves few options.

Isaac is right about the thumb pressure. It can take a lot of strength and much practice. It's an open secret but very few have developed the strength or put in the practice but, with a balance between the thumb and fingers, extremely minuscule increments can be accomplished quickly with no extraneous movement of the pin. Correct me if I'm wrong, Johnkie, but the balance between the fingers at the top of the handle and the heel of the hand lower down the handle when tuning an upright with the left hand also takes developed strength and accomplishes the same thing. This ability to turn the pin by a minuscule increment without appreciable twist or flagpole is invaluable in concert work where time and stability are important.

I was beginning to think perhaps I am getting spoiled because 90% of my work is on Hamburgs and 90% of that is on concert size instruments. (Those pin blocks are a dream but can be a nightmare with anything but the best technique) so I tuned a friends piano that has really tight pins and, yes, it takes great strength, but the technique works on those, too. It took me three weeks practice with a T hammer ( the things we do for Max) before I could turn a pin without twisting it and that's with most of the aquired strength in place. That does take developed strength and practice.

I know, I know, theoretically it is impossible but so are most magic tricks until you know the secret and put in the practice. Now you know the secret, go put in the practice.

It may not be necessary in many circumstances but to have this knowledge and the developed skill in your arsenal will pay off handsomely.



Edited by rxd (05/14/13 11:50 AM)
Edit Reason: Autocorrect (overcorrect)?

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#2082497 - 05/14/13 02:54 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Rxd,

I think I've made a few posts on this thread about the use of the thumb myself. It seems odd that you missed them.

If you reread the response I gave to your post, you will see that i did state that the hammer should be in line with the string segment running from the tuning pin to the nut.

My point is, that a very experienced tech doesn't go into some
"crisis" if he finds that he has to set the pin ay 4 or 8... he just knows how to do this internally based on decades of experience. He just does it without even blinking.

As for perversity... I suppose that is in the eye of the beholder.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/14/13 02:59 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2082500 - 05/14/13 03:14 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Sorry, Joe, none of this was personal.

I'm happy we're all on the same page.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2082553 - 05/14/13 04:53 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France
windshield wiper motion :

First sensation to understand.
Then control on the axis of rotation direction.

the hammer facing the string direction allow to work with fingers without too much trouble, as in the end the raised sensations obtained at the end of the lever handle allows to decode the pin behavior.

But beforethen one may have learned all those moves with the wristle sensitivity.


I dod not do it but I am sure I could tune pulling and pushing the handle with one finger only, limiting bending and unvoluntary twist with handle orientation.

Holding the handle full in the palm of the hand is also OK as long as the anckle is used as a support (upright pianos)

WIthout fulcrum (thumb or anckle) , controlling the rotation plane is really difficult so the pin get twisted without reading of that twist/bend.

I have used those bowl shaped handles, and find them not so sensitive, simply because it is less easy to read the pressure difference obtained on both sides of the lever in the rotational plane.

But with a standard wooden handle, the perceptions are enhanced, as with a stethoscope. I dont know if the wood is the reason but I suspect that.
Straight and with no extension, of course, to have the more direct reading.



Edited by Olek (05/14/13 04:59 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2082562 - 05/14/13 05:04 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Loren D

What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.


Thank you ! much pertinent !


I totally agree. In fact, I'd even carry this a little further. An very experienced tuner...one who has been tuning for 30, 40, 50, or more years, could probably hang upside-down from the ceiling and still set the pin properly. That's because by this stage, you've learned how to compensate for pretty much anything.

All this business of hand position is more relevant for the younger techs. This discussion of hand position is more for their benefit, rather than ours.



...and to love Newton's third law 2hearts



Thank you, most pertinent wink


Edited by Olek (05/14/13 05:05 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2082790 - 05/14/13 10:56 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
daniokeeper Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Sorry, Joe, none of this was personal.

I'm happy we're all on the same page.


No problem. No offense meant om this side either smile

-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2082889 - 05/15/13 03:18 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: rxd
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?




What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.


It may not be necessary in many circumstances but to have this knowledge and the developed skill in your arsenal will pay off handsomely.

rxd good message.Any practice, even if it's false is entitled to their existence and public discussion


Edited by Maximillyan (05/15/13 03:18 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2082962 - 05/15/13 08:12 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd


To properly set a pin and keep constant track of the tension in the portion of the string between the pin and the speaking length while doing so ( necessary for rock solid tuning, in moveable tuning, leaves few options.

Isaac is right about the thumb pressure. It can take a lot of strength and much practice. It's an open secret but very few have developed the strength or put in the practice but, with a balance between the thumb and fingers, extremely minuscule increments can be accomplished quickly with no extraneous movement of the pin. Correct me if I'm wrong, Johnkie, but the balance between the fingers at the top of the handle and the heel of the hand lower down the handle when tuning an upright with the left hand also takes developed strength and accomplishes the same thing. This ability to turn the pin by a minuscule increment without appreciable twist or flagpole is invaluable in concert work where time and stability are important.



Dont you think we developp the ability to compare the pressure on the opposite side of the lever handle, and that allow us to read all motion happening in the pin ?

The thumb push up the pin also to lighten the pressure on its "bed" . slighly changing the plane orientation of the rotation is also part of it.

Tuners need to develop a lot of tactility in their wrist and their fingers (the palm of the hand as used in bowl shaped handles, seem to have way less possibilities, anyway for me)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2082967 - 05/15/13 08:21 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: rxd
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?




What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.


before I could turn a pin without twisting it and that's with most of the aquired strength in place. That does take developed strength and practice.

That is, immediately to find and put the right tone ( sound) without subsequent lowering if say be the flat without
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2082972 - 05/15/13 08:34 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Isaac, I think you may be referring to "ball", not "bowl".
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2082975 - 05/15/13 08:35 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: rxd


To properly set a pin and keep constant track of the tension in the portion of the string between the pin and the speaking length while doing so ( necessary for rock solid tuning, in moveable tuning, leaves few options.

Isaac is right about the thumb pressure. It can take a lot of strength and much practice. It's an open secret but very few have developed the strength or put in the practice but, with a balance between the thumb and fingers, extremely minuscule increments can be accomplished quickly with no extraneous movement of the pin. Correct me if I'm wrong, Johnkie, but the balance between the fingers at the top of the handle and the heel of the hand lower down the handle when tuning an upright with the left hand also takes developed strength and accomplishes the same thing. This ability to turn the pin by a minuscule increment without appreciable twist or flagpole is invaluable in concert work where time and stability are important.


(the palm of the hand as used in bowl shaped handles, seem to have way less possibilities, anyway for me)


When the wrist is tired, it is possible to use a different combination of fingers. Including the thumb under the the lever. A wrist, like a fist is a working tuner's instrument gives a help basic. Sometimes the motion is fairly soft and we used pinky only
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2082997 - 05/15/13 08:59 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2083155 - 05/15/13 03:07 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: rxd
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?




What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.


It may not be necessary in many circumstances but to have this knowledge and the developed skill in your arsenal will pay off handsomely.

rxd good message.Any practice, even if it's false is entitled to their existence and public discussion


Thanks, Max. Very magnanimous of you. If you hadn't shared your wisdom by starting this thread, none of this would be written about. I, too am a believer in freedom of speech and thought.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2083379 - 05/15/13 11:04 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: rxd
O. K. Let's ignore the entrenched infighting in this thread. It is not central to the subject.

We have established that on an upright, 12o'clock will minimise the effect of any flagpoling produced. Can we interpret this as also meaning that the lever is in line with the direction of the string?
Can we agree that if we want to turn the pin that last annoying tiny increment in order to put the string in tune, while disturbing as little else as possible, to have the lever in line with the string would be the most helpful position to accomplish this?

Everyone agreed so far?




What you call "entrenched infighting" I call civil debate. Not sure what you're out to accomplish here, but casting a productive debate between professionals in a negative light is not adding anything positive.

Notwithstanding that, I'll say I don't agree. It's the proper amount of force in the proper direction that properly sets the pin. I'm sure many are adept at arriving at both the proper force and proper direction from a variety of handle positions.


It may not be necessary in many circumstances but to have this knowledge and the developed skill in your arsenal will pay off handsomely.

rxd good message.Any practice, even if it's false is entitled to their existence and public discussion


If you hadn't shared your wisdom by starting this thread, none of this would be written about.

Max does not enforce his own idea. It's also can not be characterized as wisdom. It's as Max's cogitations . However, (9-12) is just one of the ways of tuning. To reject (9-12) we need serious evidence of insolvency. Unfortunately I have not heard it's here
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084007 - 05/17/13 05:47 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
I note your change of heart, Max on many things.

Your posts bring out more information than most on this forum. Your past attitude has been instrumental in encouraging this. I might miss it.
I was one of the few who had faith in you and was severely castigated for it, here and elsewhere. One though I was a social worker or something because in their world it was unheard of to offer support to a fellow human being.

I have been accused of some elitism and "high horse", etc.

There have been many experiences I have had that give me insights. One of the most important is tuning the same piano 3-4 times in the same day. Of course it would be entirely stupid to retune the whole piano each time, so why this often?I have mentioned elsewhere that it is a form of insurance where the concert promoters can afford to go first class.

Although the majority of my work now is at least twice the same day. This can be readily understood because how often are we asked to tune a piano immediately prior to a concert and the piano is below pitch? (and the noisy audience is already coming in) There are those who promote concerts who think this way. Two tunings on concert day should be bare minimum. One full tuning to slightly above pitch and a final check before the concert. A piano can lose pitch, particularly in the middle sections, the treble and bass usually stay put, but you don't want to be changing the pitch much just before a concert. You will realise why we do what we do.

Much of the time there is little to do but it is good insurance. Sometimes there is everything to do, particularly with pianos that have been brought in for the occasion and are still adapting to the different atmosphere.

My point is this, by constantly checking over your own work, you can't help but become a finer and finer tuner. Pianos do drift short term woth movement of the wooden componemts and it is a good education to know the patterns this forms. We develop better tuning habits because we see immediately the results. Avoiding the temptation to flex the pin for that last little bit? I know that I will pay later if I do so I turn the pin that last infinitesimal amount. Franz Mohr says to always turn the pin. Good enough for me.

Anyway, my point is this. It is not necessarily the province of only those doing the highest class of work, any tuner can select a piano they have regular access to and give themselves this experience and I highly recommend it. For example, tune a piano just before a large party in a small room. Then check it over the next morning even if it has not been played. All those heaving bodies in one room will have an effect and give you some idea of a concert situation. Most of the time there's nothing to do but as you become a finer tuner, and there's room for improvement in all of us, you will be amazed at the small movements in the course of just a few hours and realise the value of a solid technique. You cannot control the way the piano drifts but you will observe patterns in the tuning drift. The ideal is to have nothing left to do just before a concert but the finer the tuning and the more conciencious the tuner, the more you will find. At that point there's a sense develops of what is best left alone that the presence of the audience will change.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2084049 - 05/17/13 08:10 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


pin setting is light on that case , when realised.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2084483 - 05/17/13 11:44 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


pin setting is light on that case , when realised.

Isaac,do you think that that of setting a pin is flippant? Is it deprived common sense?


Edited by Maximillyan (05/17/13 11:45 PM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084499 - 05/18/13 12:45 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd

I was one of the few who had faith in you and was severely castigated for it, here and elsewhere.

I am very grateful for you. rxd, sorry for any condemnation of others . many people here are set aggressively against me. however, only here I can get a critique and correct their own ignorance and our own mistakes . "
On the Russian forum "Classic" I was deprived account for more than two years ago. But today, every day, write all sorts of abominations about Max. They make a clips in my address. Here one Moskow tuner madea clip. The clip name "durilka." “Decoy”.
http://youtu.be/WvJBfnfqKMo

It shows a mocking manner of harm corrugated cardboard shim. God will judge him! He posted the clip in the Piano's tuner technicians. Theme " How tuners deceiving the people."
http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=55328&page=10

-видите, как красиво!......ой, не настроено ещё!.....выше надо тянуть....вот она, наша "до"! /нашёл-таки!!! ура!!!/....если у вас колок не хочет строить, единственно возможный способ его спасти и продлить жизнь вашему инструменту- это запрессовка при помощи гАфрокартона....поэтому запрессовывайте свои колки при помощи гАфрокартона обычного, который ничего не стоит, и у вас будет хороший строй.....
Да уж, блеснул косноязычием и полным невежеством в настройщицком ремесле!
Дурилка картонная!




But I did not cheat, I just treat the piano as I see fit.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084565 - 05/18/13 04:40 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


pin setting is light on that case , when realised.

Isaac,do you think that that of setting a pin is flippant? Is it deprived common sense?


No it just could be less bent and more firmly set, so the tuning hold more long.

Also the position used is the one good to raise the pitch, to set the pin the lever facing string is the way to go .

As the tuner on the video does not make test , he cannot know if his tuning is holding, and he cannot know if he is precise as he does not test intervals. It is just a rough tuning as can be done to pitch raise, but done as the final work with a fast and uneven pin setting on some notes, justness is obtained just by pin bending on other.

The lever position is the same I could use to raise the tension on a grand, (intention : feeling what is the maximum twist the pin accepts ; second intention : work a pin made stiffer and more reactive by twisting it somehow.)

Later, when the pin release of those manipulations it is in position and sort of auto grip in the tuning pin hole (I suspect)

But the setting have to be tested, just leaving the pin and expecting it to stay put is counting on luck.



Edited by Olek (05/18/13 04:48 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2084570 - 05/18/13 05:00 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7898
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I was one of the few who had faith in you and was severely castigated for it, here and elsewhere.

I am very grateful for you. rxd, sorry for any condemnation of others . many people here are set aggressively against me. however, only here I can get a critique and correct their own ignorance and our own mistakes . "
On the Russian forum "Classic" I was deprived account for more than two years ago. But today, every day, write all sorts of abominations about Max. They make a clips in my address. Here one Moskow tuner madea clip. The clip name "durilka." “Decoy”.
http://youtu.be/WvJBfnfqKMo

It shows a mocking manner of harm corrugated cardboard shim. God will judge him! He posted the clip in the Piano's tuner technicians. Theme " How tuners deceiving the people."
http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=55328&page=10

-видите, как красиво!......ой, не настроено ещё!.....выше надо тянуть....вот она, наша "до"! /нашёл-таки!!! ура!!!/....если у вас колок не хочет строить, единственно возможный способ его спасти и продлить жизнь вашему инструменту- это запрессовка при помощи гАфрокартона....поэтому запрессовывайте свои колки при помощи гАфрокартона обычного, который ничего не стоит, и у вас будет хороший строй.....
Да уж, блеснул косноязычием и полным невежеством в настройщицком ремесле!
Дурилка картонная!




But I did not cheat, I just treat the piano as I see fit.


Max it is hard, but comprehensive, as you give lessons to others while you dis not have any formal training yourself, this is somewhat chocking to the ones that made the effort to listen to explanations, and learned a standard method (or another).

When you will begin to make things in the good order, your ability to tune a piano will developp. As long you do not your progress will be limited (as the tuner of the video that did not learn how to test his tuning, for instance, because he learned with a very old method that did not incluede tests)

That said tuning only 5ths and 4ths provide some consistency , in time hence some musicality even if minimal.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2084610 - 05/18/13 08:13 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I was one of the few who had faith in you and was severely castigated for it, here and elsewhere.

I am very grateful for you. rxd, sorry for any condemnation of others . many people here are set aggressively against me. however, only here I can get a critique and correct their own ignorance and our own mistakes . "
On the Russian forum "Classic" I was deprived account for more than two years ago. But today, every day, write all sorts of abominations about Max. They make a clips in my address. Here one Moskow tuner madea clip. The clip name "durilka." “Decoy”.
http://youtu.be/WvJBfnfqKMo

It shows a mocking manner of harm corrugated cardboard shim. God will judge him! He posted the clip in the Piano's tuner technicians. Theme " How tuners deceiving the people."
http://www.forumklassika.ru/showthread.php?t=55328&page=10

-видите, как красиво!......ой, не настроено ещё!.....выше надо тянуть....вот она, наша "до"! /нашёл-таки!!! ура!!!/....если у вас колок не хочет строить, единственно возможный способ его спасти и продлить жизнь вашему инструменту- это запрессовка при помощи гАфрокартона....поэтому запрессовывайте свои колки при помощи гАфрокартона обычного, который ничего не стоит, и у вас будет хороший строй.....
Да уж, блеснул косноязычием и полным невежеством в настройщицком ремесле!
Дурилка картонная!




But I did not cheat, I just treat the piano as I see fit.


Max it is hard, but comprehensive, as you give lessons to others while you dis not have any formal training yourself, this is somewhat chocking to the ones that made the effort to listen to explanations, and learned a standard method (or another).

When you will begin to make things in the good order, your ability to tune a piano will developp. As long you do not your progress will be limited


Perhaps Max need return to the banal teaching of music a kids and to forget about what he said here?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084613 - 05/18/13 08:29 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Quote:
It shows a mocking manner of harm corrugated cardboard shim. God will judge him! He posted the clip in the Piano's tuner technicians. Theme " How tuners deceiving the people."

This does go too far. I agree with Maximillyan. The worst thing I can see happening with the use of a cardboard shim is that the pin still does not tighten up sufficiently. Either it will work in a specific instance, or it will not work. But, I do not think that trying it can really do any harm. The pin is already failing.

The worst criticism could be that it is an old method that has been replaced by newer methods.

The most important thing is to check how tight the surrounding pins are after inserting the cardboard shim. If the other tuning pins in the area become looser, then there is possibly a crack in the tuning pin block. In that case, you do not want to keep adding shims to other holes because this will just keep opening the split wider and wider. As long as the surrounding pins are checked to make sure that they are not loosing tightness, I think the shim method is perfectly safe.

Although it is considered controversial by some on this forum, C/A/ glue might be the better choice. It will tighten the hole. But, it will also tend to add some strength back to the pinblock if it is splitting.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2084628 - 05/18/13 09:12 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Quote:
It shows a mocking manner of harm corrugated cardboard shim. God will judge him! He posted the clip in the Piano's tuner technicians. Theme " How tuners deceiving the people."

This does go too far. I agree with Maximillyan. The worst thing I can see happening with the use of a cardboard shim is that the pin still does not tighten up sufficiently. Either it will work in a specific instance, or it will not work. But, I do not think that trying it can really do any harm. The pin is already failing.

The worst criticism could be that it is an old method that has been replaced by newer methods.

The most important thing is to check how tight the surrounding pins are after inserting the cardboard shim. If the other tuning pins in the area become looser, then there is possibly a crack in the tuning pin block. In that case, you do not want to keep adding shims to other holes because this will just keep opening the split wider and wider. As long as the surrounding pins are checked to make sure that they are not loosing tightness, I think the shim method is perfectly safe.

Although it is considered controversial by some on this forum, C/A/ glue might be the better choice. It will tighten the hole. But, it will also tend to add some strength back to the pinblock if it is splitting.

daniokeeper,thanks for the kind words. "pin is still not enough to pull" this is not entirely true. In some cases it is necessary to use either 3mm and 4-5mm shim for fixing. I also believe that the cardboard shim can not be significantly harming for oldest piano. I completely agree with you that if there are cracks in pinblock it will not help. This I see in my personal practice.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084629 - 05/18/13 09:18 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Interestingly, CA glue for tightening pins was considered radical and crazy not all that long ago, while now it's accepted.

I agree with Joe. I don't really see how using a cardboard shim is any worse than using a piece of sandpaper. Obviously we're talking about pianos that are not of the quality to warrant restringing, repinning, or rebuilding.

If I had to choose between someone who innovates and tries new, untried methods (like CA glue once was) and someone who sits on the sidelines and offers ridicule, like some here do, I'd have to say I choose the former.

Max, if you believe in what you're doing, stick to it.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2084632 - 05/18/13 09:28 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Thank you Maximillyan,

I was simply speculating about the worst possible outcome... that even if it did not work, it would do no harm.

Don’t pay any attention to what they write about you. Just measure it in inches.
-Andy Warhol


Just in case this did not translate correctly... It is not so important whether or not they criticize you. What is important is how much they write about you. You are relevant. smile

Edit: Maximillyan, I have heard of you. I have never heard of any of these tuners that criticized you.. I know of you; I don't know of them. smile


Edited by daniokeeper (05/18/13 09:37 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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