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Topic Options
#2084638 - 05/18/13 09:47 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Quote:

“I don't care what you say about me, just spell my name right.”
-P.T. Barnum
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2084644 - 05/18/13 09:57 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Thank you Maximillyan,

I was simply speculating about the worst possible outcome... that even if it did not work, it would do no harm.

Don’t pay any attention to what they write about you. Just measure it in inches.
-Andy Warhol


Just in case this did not translate correctly... It is not so important whether or not they criticize you. What is important is how much they write about you. You are relevant. smile

Edit: Maximillyan, I have heard of you. I have never heard of any of these tuners that criticized you.. I know of you; I don't know of them. smile



With respect to criticism, I have always appreciated the following thought from F A Clark, though all too often I fail to follow it:

”Criticism, like rain, should be gentle enough to nourish a man’s growth without destroying his roots.”
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2084653 - 05/18/13 10:08 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I'd have to say I choose the former.

Max, if you believe in what you're doing, stick to it.

Dear Loren D, will soon be a year since you put the topic: "Ok, so I've been thinking about Max's cardboard fix"
on the forum. I am very grateful to you that you are not afraid of ridicule and mocking attitude of venerable technicans that. I get a lot of letters ( Russian speaking people of the former USSR) who request to clarify the details a shim about. This is in part thanks to you. Thank God, nobody did write that it does not work. None of layman do write angry letters to my address with the accusation of fraud. Every a piano as saved use a shim have your merit, I think. May God grant you good health and success business. Sincerely, Max from Kazakhstan.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084657 - 05/18/13 10:16 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
You are relevant. smile

Edit: Maximillyan, I have heard of you. I have never heard of any of these tuners that criticized you.. I know of you; I don't know of them. smile

daniokeeper,m o r e one Thanks from Max!!!
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084669 - 05/18/13 10:39 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7877
Loc: France
WHat is admirable is the videos with numerous explanations from Max, that at last tuning wise show some non realization.
I can assure you that it may be too much to hear if you understand Russian.
Hence those comments you received.

Or, what you show is to be considered at "Do it yourself" level, as an intend to help other in a similar situation.

In that case I would lower the aspect "teacher" and just show things as solutions I have find because of the lack of piano technician in my area.

Then , many of us want to find something new that would definitively bring the proof that we have some brain between our 2 ears. Hence the quest, some have more luck there than others.

Also, describing the process of tuning is very possible , but way more complicated it looks.
Having a decent , plausible, verified explanation on what happen to one string plus a tuning pin, , 2 strings, 3 strings, I wish you good luck.

The one who knows are probably not willing to give descriptions, or only to close friends or colleagues; some will eventually sell something.

That is why I would be attentive when generous people are trying to make you loss a little less time. You seem to begin to listen so not everything is lost.







Edited by Olek (05/18/13 10:41 AM)
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#2084672 - 05/18/13 10:49 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
You seem to begin to listen so not everything is lost.

Losing is not hard. Find and keep a much more difficult
WHat is admirable is the videos with numerous explanations from Max, that at last tuning wise show some non realization.
What do you say about that admirable videos?


Edited by Maximillyan (05/18/13 10:52 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084684 - 05/18/13 11:12 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7877
Loc: France
I made only a few, on Youtube.

adding explanations is the difficult part.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2084689 - 05/18/13 11:16 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7877
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
You seem to begin to listen so not everything is lost.

Losing is not hard. Find and keep a much more difficult
WHat is admirable is the videos with numerous explanations from Max, that at last tuning wise show some non realization.
What do you say about that admirable videos?


That you talk so much the audience expect to see something useful or interesting, you should make tuning videos after having mastered the bases.

At last the one we have seen showed us that you need help, hence the numerous answers and proposals for help.

You are beginning to get some feel with the tuning lever, with that you can begin to learn to put the note wher you want, in a way it will not move .
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2084704 - 05/18/13 11:28 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
You seem to begin to listen so not everything is lost.

Losing is not hard. Find and keep a much more difficult
WHat is admirable is the videos with numerous explanations from Max, that at last tuning wise show some non realization.
What do you say about that admirable videos?


That you talk so much the audience expect to see something useful or interesting, you should make tuning videos after having mastered the bases.

At last the one we have seen showed us that you need help, hence the numerous answers and proposals for help.

You are beginning to get some feel with the tuning lever, with that you can begin to learn to put the note wher you want, in a way it will not move .

Isaac,I must a lot of work on myself. Only then will ask the advice of competent technicians
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2084794 - 05/18/13 02:25 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7877
Loc: France
Then your next videos will be more providing coherent explanations, I hope anyway. Anyone have the right to believe things, and then discover it is only a part of the process, or to change the way he does.

But a few things cannot be avoided :

1° training himself for optimal sensitivity of the hand that manipulate the lever and the one that play (I know some do not want to hear that but I have seen their work and they should try to learn a little something more, as I try myself at any opportunity)

2° ear training : train to listen separately to the fundamental tone and to the (inharmonic) partials.
Naturally the ear tend to hear a single pitch, listening to partials is not so easy at first.

(same comment than above)

A basic understanding of the behavior of the string, the coupled strings and the acoustical part (bridge/soundboard, strings/ tuning pins /pinblock) is helping very much

Listening to concert pianos and piano music, then trying to remember their tone, you could even try to tune while some piano music is played so you have a sample of the tone you want to obtain.

Always keep in mind that we are working with elastic material (strings, wood, tuning pins)

Learn to recognize that elasticity or springiness when tuning (when tuning you modify it) The springiness is what help the tuner (even the one of the tuning lever in some situation)

Not be afraid of the strings, as many tuners are for years.

I guess that some instructions have been given yet, I know it is not easy to make videos but try to make more just tuning unisons, you will have more comments and instructions.

Best regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2085200 - 05/19/13 12:59 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Quote:
It shows a mocking manner of harm corrugated cardboard shim. God will judge him! He posted the clip in the Piano's tuner technicians. Theme " How tuners deceiving the people."
I think the shim method is perfectly safe.

Although it is considered controversial by some on this forum, C/A/ glue might be the better choice. It will tighten the hole. But, it will also tend to add some strength back to the pinblock if it is splitting.

A hole and a bush increased while in service. As a result was lost quired friction between a hole and a pin. A shim 3mm during screwing in pinblock partially collapsed. Its fiber filled the gap. Shim partially destroyed fibers stuck(glued) in a circle hole. Wood hole was treated a cardboard product recycling. Nothing was damaged in the course of operations


Edited by Maximillyan (05/19/13 01:00 PM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2085247 - 05/19/13 02:48 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Hello Maximillyan,

There is nothing wrong with using a shim for a loose pin.

But, maybe you are not familiar with C/A glue?

Sometimes.... typically a loose pin is caused by what you said. The hole becomes too big.

If that is the only problem, a cardboard shim is logical and is perfectly safe.

Sometimes there is a bigger problem. One or more of the laminations, or layers of wood, in the pinblock may be splitting and/or becoming unglued from each other.


C/A glue is thin like water and dries very fast. So, the C/A glue will make the wood swell and will tend to strengthen the pinblock if it is developing any structural problems.

The cardboard shim method is perfectly safe if used with wisdom. There is one thing to be careful of...

Just like you can use a wedge to split firewood, you want to be sure that the structure of the pinblock is in good condition.

If the pinblock has a split in the wood, there is danger that the shim may act as a wedge and open the split wider. That is why you test other near tuning pins for tightness before using a shim, and after using a shim. That way, a comparison can be made to make sure that the pinblock has good structure.

With C/A glue, the wood swells and the structure is strengthened by the glue.

Using a shim is perfectly safe if done with wisdom. I am sure that Maximillyan has the wisdom. smile


Edited by daniokeeper (05/19/13 02:54 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling of shim
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2085496 - 05/20/13 12:12 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Maximillyan,

There is nothing wrong with using a shim for a loose pin.

But, maybe you are not familiar with C/A glue?

Sometimes.... typically a loose pin is caused by what you said. The hole becomes too big.

If that is the only problem, a cardboard shim is logical and is perfectly safe.

Greetings, Joe.
Thank you for the constructive comments on the use corrugated cardboard shim. I am glad that you shared the problem of lost pins on the two options.

When we have only an occasional loss of pin and splitting layers pinblock
In the first case, we use "method of foot wraps." Cardboard can not hurt, because it is soft and springs back
“Sometimes.... typically a loose pin is caused by what you said. The hole becomes too big”
.In the second case we have a more complicated repair, as if you wrote a partial separation of layers of wood. Here we can not use cardboard. It will be useless as a "dead poultices"
I do not agree with you that the cardboard can be a problem. And will the wedge? However, the effectiveness of such repair is 0%
I had a similar practice when entire sectors of pinblock have been violated . I deleted these pins and poured into it's hole very liquid PVA with a syringe. After two days I'm re-screwed the pins without a shim. A pin very tightly fixed. He did rotated bad . But I managed restore a pitch. I dare to hope that the CA is more efficient
I would like to advise customers not to buy the piano sounds that resemble the "chimes". It is necessary that such a piano was tested a technician . Otherwise, it may get a big problem in the future. Regards, Max


Edited by Maximillyan (05/20/13 12:16 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2085506 - 05/20/13 12:27 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Hello Maximillyan,

Yes, CA is more efficient. I am often able to tune the piano on the same trip.

It is not necessary to remove the pin. Since the CA is thin like water, it wicks into the wood like water.

The bad part of CA is that is has a very strong smell. If someone has breathing problems or pets, they need to be kept away from the CA while it is drying and giving off an odor.

Also, CA sets very fast. If you are nor careful, you could find your hand glued to the piano.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2085509 - 05/20/13 12:50 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Maximillyan,

Yes, CA is more efficient. I am often able to tune the piano on the same trip.

It is not necessary to remove the pin. Since the CA is thin like water, it wicks into the wood like water.

The bad part of CA is that is has a very strong smell. If someone has breathing problems or pets, they need to be kept away from the CA while it is drying and giving off an odor.

Also, CA sets very fast. If you are nor careful, you could find your hand glued to the piano.

I have a question. You have own statistics a save of a pitch after the use of the CA?
I think that the application of CA is wood don't a connecting stick together, and the it's baked only . As a result, it's swelling and to wedge. How to behave "cured pins." They do not differ from the healthy?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2085515 - 05/20/13 01:15 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

Apparently those pins were not very loose in the videos. For very loose pins, a device called a "piano tilter" would be used to set the piano on its back and then apply glue.

I have used CA glue many, many times. There is only one time I was dissatisfied. (All other times succeeded.) The owner had a spinet piano. Without my knowledge, a family member decided to refinish it. The pins were already ridiculously loose... possible pinblock damage or possible contamination. But since the piano was refinished, it was now viewed as a family heirloom. I was asked to try to save it so the refinishing job would not go to waste. Since it was an old spinet piano, the expense could not be justified. I told them i would try, but could not make any promises in this particular case.

I used CA glue and the piano did well for several years. But, after a few years, the pins became loose again. I treated the block again, at my own expense. It improved. This was many years ago, so my memory is not certain on this next point, but I believe I ultimately treated the pinblock a 3rd time at my own expense. I informed them that the pinblock simply would not absorb any more CA.

Thinking back on it today, I believe that the pinblock had been exposed to some sort of contaminant... maybe oil, silicon, or something else.

I believe that is the only time CA has ever failed to work on a pinblock for me. I cannot recall it failing me in any other circumstance.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/20/13 01:20 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2085527 - 05/20/13 01:59 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
There is only one time I was dissatisfied. (All other times succeeded.) The owner had a spinet piano. Without my knowledge, a family member decided to refinish it. The pins were already ridiculously loose... possible pinblock damage or possible contamination. But since the piano was refinished, it was now viewed as a family heirloom. I was asked to try to save it so the refinishing job would not go to waste. Since it was an old spinet piano, the expense could not be justified. I told them i would try, but could not make any promises in this particular case.

I used CA glue and the piano did well for several years. But, after a few years, the pins became loose again. I treated the block again, at my own expense. It improved. This was many years ago, so my memory is not certain on this next point, but I believe I ultimately treated the pinblock a 3rd time at my own expense. I informed them that the pinblock simply would not absorb any more CA.

Thinking back on it today, I believe that the pinblock had been exposed to some sort of contaminant... maybe oil, silicon, or something else.

I believe that is the only time CA has ever failed to work on a pinblock for me. I cannot recall it failing me in any other circumstance.

I dare to assume that no oil or silicon here. No, rather a lot of microcracks around every pins. As a consequence of the ineffectiveness of the use of CA
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2085536 - 05/20/13 02:27 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2085593 - 05/20/13 06:47 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Man, look at the glue running down the plate as he's applying it in that second video. Sheesh....

edit: I cringe when I come across a piano that has CA glue hardened on the plate. At least go the whole route and put the piano on its back.

And I have to say, applying CA to vertical pins that way, and seeing it on the video, only reinforces my belief that very little of the glue is actually making it to the pinblock. Rather, the pin is being glued to the bushing.


Edited by Loren D (05/20/13 06:51 AM)
Edit Reason: additional thoughts
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DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
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#2085606 - 05/20/13 07:26 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Man, look at the glue running down the plate as he's applying it in that second video. Sheesh....

edit: I cringe when I come across a piano that has CA glue hardened on the plate. At least go the whole route and put the piano on its back.

And I have to say, applying CA to vertical pins that way, and seeing it on the video, only reinforces my belief that very little of the glue is actually making it to the pinblock. Rather, the pin is being glued to the bushing.

Loren D,I'm agree with your negative feelings about the use of the CA in this video. I also support you that CA does not penetrate into the hole pinblock. CA just glues a metal pin to the walls of bush
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2085608 - 05/20/13 07:42 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible



Good point, Max. CA does one or two things quite well, but one thing that it does not do is defy the law of gravity. It is going everywhere except where it is needed. What a mess! cry


Edited by bkw58 (05/20/13 07:44 AM)
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2085612 - 05/20/13 07:51 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible



Good point, Max. CA does one or two things quite well, but one thing that it does not do is defy the law of gravity. It is going everywhere except where it is needed. What a mess! cry

Bob,CA possible to use, but necessary beforehand to delete a pin from hole
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2085635 - 05/20/13 08:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible



Good point, Max. CA does one or two things quite well, but one thing that it does not do is defy the law of gravity. It is going everywhere except where it is needed. What a mess! cry

Bob,CA possible to use, but necessary beforehand to delete a pin from hole


Thanks Max. At the time I retired - several years ago now - this CA procedure was not in use in my area by any of the techs, so I'll have to go on your expertise and others on the proper methodololgy. I have no experience with it. In fact, in the "old days" traditional methods of "treating" the pinblock (commonly referred to as "doping") were frowned upon my most, if not all the techs of my acquaintance - mostly because these were often messy and seemed to create other problems in the instrument. If used at all, it was only considered as a "last resort" band-aid for a cheap, ready-for-the-junkyard piano. From what I can determine from some of the posts about it, when applied correctly and with the necessary precautions, CA does not appear to present the same problems that "doping" did.


Edited by bkw58 (05/20/13 08:53 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2086042 - 05/20/13 10:34 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible



Good point, Max. CA does one or two things quite well, but one thing that it does not do is defy the law of gravity. It is going everywhere except where it is needed. What a mess! cry

Bob,CA possible to use, but necessary beforehand to delete a pin from hole


this CA procedure was not in use in my area by any of the techs, so I'll have to go on your expertise and others on the proper methodololgy. I have no experience with it. In fact, in the "old days" traditional methods of "treating" the pinblock (commonly referred to as "doping") were frowned upon my most, if not all the techs of my acquaintance - mostly because these were often messy and seemed to create other problems in the instrument.

Hello, Bob.
Yes, we can use CA, but we should do the calculation, the end result of what we should get. To count every penny and advance warning of the possible dangers.
I have a question, Bob. Prior to your retirement, as I understand you have practiced Conway is the county seat of Faulkner County, Arkansas United State. It is home to 60,470 population at the 2011. You wrote that the CA condemned many technicans and don't use it. What methods "treated" loost pin?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2086055 - 05/20/13 11:22 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Obviously we're talking about pianos that are not of the quality to warrant restringing, repinning, or rebuilding.Max, if you believe in what you're doing, stick to it.

Why sometimes we can and should use corrugated cardboard shim?
Here the result Max's interference in the junk piano. Max has set more than 10 shims. He tuning it as possible. Before the repair work the owner wanted delete it to the dump. Now it is satisfied with the quality. Max has spent more than 10 hours. Today we can say, this piano exploited for over six months. The girl took music lessons. The piano have "new life", despite some flaws
http://youtu.be/kueW3zgxN5Y
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2086225 - 05/21/13 12:10 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible



Good point, Max. CA does one or two things quite well, but one thing that it does not do is defy the law of gravity. It is going everywhere except where it is needed. What a mess! cry

Bob,CA possible to use, but necessary beforehand to delete a pin from hole


this CA procedure was not in use in my area by any of the techs, so I'll have to go on your expertise and others on the proper methodololgy. I have no experience with it. In fact, in the "old days" traditional methods of "treating" the pinblock (commonly referred to as "doping") were frowned upon my most, if not all the techs of my acquaintance - mostly because these were often messy and seemed to create other problems in the instrument.

Hello, Bob.
Yes, we can use CA, but we should do the calculation, the end result of what we should get. To count every penny and advance warning of the possible dangers.
I have a question, Bob. Prior to your retirement, as I understand you have practiced Conway is the county seat of Faulkner County, Arkansas United State. It is home to 60,470 population at the 2011. You wrote that the CA condemned many technicans and don't use it. What methods "treated" loost pin?



Hi Max:

Actually, my piano service business was in Little Rock, AR.

I recall three liquid treatments for a soft pinblock . Tuners Supply sold some stuff that was slow acting, quite oily, messy, and not very good in the results department. I do not remember the exact name. (Garfield, maybe?) Pin-Tite, which may still be available, was an overall improvement when applied correctly: faster acting, nowhere near as oily and messy; it produced better results. Some brewed their own concoction of ethylene glycol and whatever they could find in the outhouse. (Horrible.) The principle: said liquid applied at the base of each tuning pin = penetration and expansion = restoration for a time indeterminate. (Assuming, of course, that the potion managed to find a way through the bushings - if these were present. To circumvent the bushings, a grand could be turned upside down and treated from the underside of the block.)

The problems that ensued from such were varied enough to constitute a forum thread.

From what I gather from the posts on this forum, when applied correctly and using proper precautions, CA does not appear to cause the same problems that the other liquids did. Techs seem to be pleased with the results. Again, CA was not in use in my area when I was in business(though it is now, I am told) and so I have no experience with it.

If, in the collective judgment of leading piano technicians and piano technology educators, CA truly stands a test of time, then it will be of great benefit to piano owners who cannot afford pinblock replacement. When proper research and development results in more manageable piano aftermarket costs, everyone wins.

Thanks, Max.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2086520 - 05/21/13 11:41 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
[quote=daniokeeper]Here are a few videos I found. It may be better to show than to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9GST_91qI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiOxt7YxCjU

I believe that the operation of the CA infusion on these videos is ineffective. That is why, a very small amount of glue spilled into the hole. CA is more spilled on pin here. Rather a pin was glued to a wood. I think that when we shall tuning a pin it's will squeak and it will be difficult to "catch" in the desired position. I believe that it would be wiser to twist off a pin. Then the CA spilled so it been on the back of the hole (bottom). That is to change the structure of the wood but do spill on a pin . Upright piano need to lay down on his back, I think. To more glue soaked as much as possible



Good point, Max. CA does one or two things quite well, but one thing that it does not do is defy the law of gravity. It is going everywhere except where it is needed. What a mess! cry

Bob,CA possible to use, but necessary beforehand to delete a pin from hole


this CA procedure was not in use in my area by any of the techs, so I'll have to go on your expertise and others on the proper methodololgy. I have no experience with it. In fact, in the "old days" traditional methods of "treating" the pinblock (commonly referred to as "doping") were frowned upon my most, if not all the techs of my acquaintance - mostly because these were often messy and seemed to create other problems in the instrument.

Thanks, Max.

Hi, Bob.
1 A mixture based of ethylene glycol+ other bonding materials , yes. This will work, but the smell of antifreeze virtually don't get out. Smell will long time. Ethylene glycol is very fluid, but then it is better to use naphtha?

I'm not clear why to handle the piano when turned upside down. Where to pour liquid?
.
2 Why do not us start a similar thread in the forum about fluids unsuccessfully drenched in pinblocks? Owners piano United States and other countries will be reading this
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2086544 - 05/22/13 12:57 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1088
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
There is only one time I was dissatisfied. (All other times succeeded.) The owner had a spinet piano. Without my knowledge, a family member decided to refinish it. The pins were already ridiculously loose... possible pinblock damage or possible contamination. But since the piano was refinished, it was now viewed as a family heirloom. I was asked to try to save it so the refinishing job would not go to waste. Since it was an old spinet piano, the expense could not be justified. I told them i would try, but could not make any promises in this particular case.

I used CA glue and the piano did well for several years. But, after a few years, the pins became loose again. I treated the block again, at my own expense. It improved. This was many years ago, so my memory is not certain on this next point, but I believe I ultimately treated the pinblock a 3rd time at my own expense. I informed them that the pinblock simply would not absorb any more CA.

Thinking back on it today, I believe that the pinblock had been exposed to some sort of contaminant... maybe oil, silicon, or something else.

I believe that is the only time CA has ever failed to work on a pinblock for me. I cannot recall it failing me in any other circumstance.

I dare to assume that no oil or silicon here. No, rather a lot of microcracks around every pins. As a consequence of the ineffectiveness of the use of CA


Why do you dare to assume that there is no oil or silicon present? Based on what evidence?

How can you come to such conclusions based on a piano you have never seen?

Further, I have told you that ALL times CA succeeded, except once. Then, I had the courtesy to explain that one instance to you in detail. You are taking that one time to try to discredit all use of CA by all technicians in all pinblocks... a technique you never even attempted once... not once... yourself. You ignore all the successful uses.

What are you basing your conclusions on?

Where is YOUR data?

Edit: Maximillyan, Are you suggesting that CA made cracks in the pinblock and made the pins come loose? This is a charge i have never even heard the harshest critics of CA make.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/22/13 01:41 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2086614 - 05/22/13 07:26 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7877
Loc: France
Once I tried CA before changing a block on avertical.
It made a sort of collar in the hole, I did not like at all the feel of the pin, is felt as in something lubed.

A colleague witnessed that the tuning pin is stopped but there is no friction raise, as we cannot count on the wood fiber to brake the pin as with the normal situation.

I understand its use on low grade instruments if there is a good result, hopefully we have little pianos of the kind .

I am troubled by the tentation to use it as a "tuner's trick" on instruments that will merit a simple re stringing with new tuning pins.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2086615 - 05/22/13 07:31 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1766
Loc: Conway, AR USA


Hi, Bob.
1 A mixture based of ethylene glycol+ other bonding materials , yes. This will work, but the smell of antifreeze virtually don't get out. Smell will long time. Ethylene glycol is very fluid, but then it is better to use naphtha?

I'm not clear why to handle the piano when turned upside down. Where to pour liquid?
.
2 Why do not us start a similar thread in the forum about fluids unsuccessfully drenched in pinblocks? Owners piano United States and other countries will be reading this

- Max

My apology, Max. Either I am not understanding your post, or I was unclear in my last reply to your questions.

1. I was not recommending the older liquid methods for pinblock restoration.

2. I was not necessarily suggesting that a thread be started on these older methods - only that "problems that ensued from such were varied enough to constitute a forum thread." This was another way of saying that the problems created by the old liquid treatments are too many to post in a thread that is already off of its original topic. (Though an educated public on the dangers of bad and/or obsolete methods is always a good thing.)

Regarding your question: "I'm not clear why to handle the piano when turned upside down. Where to pour liquid?" Answer: I read of this procedure in an old PTJ article. It was authored during a time when "doping the block" was an accepted practice among some techs - not necessarily because it was good, but because it was the only method available at the time short of total pinblock replacement. This method can only be done if all of the pin-holes are wholly visible on the underside of the pinblock. BTW, I do not recommend this either smile

- Bob
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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