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#2086639 - 05/22/13 08:19 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
There is only one time I was dissatisfied. (All other times succeeded.) The owner had a spinet piano. Without my knowledge, a family member decided to refinish it. The pins were already ridiculously loose... possible pinblock damage or possible contamination. But since the piano was refinished, it was now viewed as a family heirloom. I was asked to try to save it so the refinishing job would not go to waste. Since it was an old spinet piano, the expense could not be justified. I told them i would try, but could not make any promises in this particular case.

I used CA glue and the piano did well for several years. But, after a few years, the pins became loose again. I treated the block again, at my own expense. It improved. This was many years ago, so my memory is not certain on this next point, but I believe I ultimately treated the pinblock a 3rd time at my own expense. I informed them that the pinblock simply would not absorb any more CA.

Thinking back on it today, I believe that the pinblock had been exposed to some sort of contaminant... maybe oil, silicon, or something else.

I believe that is the only time CA has ever failed to work on a pinblock for me. I cannot recall it failing me in any other circumstance.

I dare to assume that no oil or silicon here. No, rather a lot of microcracks around every pins. As a consequence of the ineffectiveness of the use of CA

You are taking that one time to try to discredit all use of CA by all technicians in all pinblocks... a technique you never even attempted once... not once... yourself. You ignore all the successful uses.

What are you basing your conclusions on?

Where is YOUR data?

Edit: Maximillyan, Are you suggesting that CA made cracks in the pinblock and made the pins come loose? This is a charge i have never even heard the harshest critics of CA make.

You have misunderstood me. Sorry,daniokeeper. I have never tried CA. I'm not that right do myself data . CA created with the objective treatment of pinblock and successfully apply everywhere. I can not discredit any use of the CA .Max is amateur technician.
I used several times liquid PVA for very old junk pianos. This was efficient. I believe that CA will operate reliably if certain conditions are met. The technician will have the necessary qualifications.
I will express only my guess: I think that the CA does not cure ( a restore wood) pinblock. It penetrates into the gap between a pin and wood. Thus CA pin sticks to the bush and hole of pinblock. As long time..? But this is just my own mind.
Regards, Max
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A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2086647 - 05/22/13 08:35 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
I understand its use on low grade instruments if there is a good result, hopefully we have little pianos of the kind .

Isaac, I think that low grade instruments pianos are many times more in the world. It's not so?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2086656 - 05/22/13 08:47 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58

Regarding your question: "I'm not clear why to handle the piano when turned upside down. Where to pour liquid?" Answer: I read of this procedure in an old PTJ article. It was authored during a time when "doping the block" was an accepted practice among some techs - not necessarily because it was good, but because it was the only method available at the time short of total pinblock replacement. This method can only be done if all of the pin-holes are wholly visible on the underside of the pinblock. BTW, I do not recommend this either smile

- Bob
Hi,Bob.I see . I also suggested that the holes have to be cross-cutting.
I see . I also suggested that the holes have to be cross-cutting.

_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2086750 - 05/22/13 11:52 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Maximillyan, I also apologize. Perhaps translation software can make things seem like one way, when they are another way ?

I have no objections to the cardboard shim method. I believe that it is prudent to test the near tuning pins before and after using a "dry" method to close up a void... a hole that is too big. I think testing of the near pins should be done if using cardboard shims, metal tuning pin bushings, or sandpaper. Testing should be before and after using so there is a point of comparison.

--------------------------------------------------------

Isaac, I do agree with you part way...

I would not advocate using CA on a $100,00 piano.

But, I have a hard time recommending $10,000 worth of repairs on a $500 piano.

If someone has a $500 piano and it needs new pins, pinblock (harder to install on a vertical piano), etc., should I refuse to use CA? Edit: Or, should I refuse to present CA to the client as an option?

Of course, CA won't give nearly the same high quality of results as a new pinblock installed at your shop. But, CA is inexpensive in terms of materials, and inexpensive in terms of time. Edit: You get what you pay for smile

If it tightens the pins to the point that the piano is tunable for another 10 or 20 years, and the customer now has a piano for the children to learn on, where is the harm?

It has been my experience that in some circumstances, the use of CA has determined whether or not a family will be able to have a usable piano in the home.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/22/13 12:01 PM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2087075 - 05/22/13 11:12 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Maximillyan, I also apologize. Perhaps translation software can make things seem like one way, when they are another way ?

I have no objections to the cardboard shim method. I believe that it is prudent to test the near tuning pins before and after using a "dry" method to close up a void... a hole that is too big. I think testing of the near pins should be done if using cardboard shims, metal tuning pin bushings, or sandpaper. Testing should be before and after using so there is a point of comparison.

Greetings,Joe. I have understood you. It is a pleasure that you call the method corrugated cardboard shim is "dry." It really is "invisible" in pinblock intervention, but it is very difficult to implement. Install a shim requires some skill and experience of the technician. Have need see Max's clips. I agree with you that we would like to test the "before" and "after" (testing of the near pins should be done if using cardboard shims, metal tuning pin bushings, or sandpaper). Such statistics could reveal the objectivity of things written here. However, it is beyond the power of one person (Max), alas.
I have already expressed my own opinion on the matter metal tuning pin bushings,sandpaper. I am opposed to their use in such cases, if the we shall hammer a pin into a pinblock after setting it's. Only screwing it's but this is my opinion only
Regards, maxim_tuner from Kazakhstan
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2087103 - 05/23/13 12:25 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Greetings,Joe. I have understood you. It is a pleasure that you call the method corrugated cardboard shim is "dry." It really is "invisible" in pinblock intervention, but it is very difficult to implement. Install a shim requires some skill and experience of the technician. Have need see Max's clips. I agree with you that we would like to test the "before" and "after" (testing of the near pins should be done if using cardboard shims, metal tuning pin bushings, or sandpaper). Such statistics could reveal the objectivity of things written here. However, it is beyond the power of one person (Max), alas.
I have already expressed my own opinion on the matter metal tuning pin bushings,sandpaper. I am opposed to their use in such cases, if the we shall hammer a pin into a pinblock after setting it's. Only screwing it's but this is my opinion only
Regards, maxim_tuner from Kazakhstan


Hello Maxim,

I am not suggesting you create some sort of database of information, or that you keep records. I am only suggesting that a few near pins be tested before and after using any sort of "dry" repair, where something is inserted into the hole and the pin reinstalled.

It really should add at most one minute or so to the repair job.

But, I am glad you like my "dry" description smile

-Joe from Pennsylvania smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2087149 - 05/23/13 02:39 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Greetings,Joe. I have understood you. It is a pleasure that you call the method corrugated cardboard shim is "dry." It really is "invisible" in pinblock intervention, but it is very difficult to implement. Install a shim requires some skill and experience of the technician. Have need see Max's clips. I agree with you that we would like to test the "before" and "after" (testing of the near pins should be done if using cardboard shims, metal tuning pin bushings, or sandpaper). Such statistics could reveal the objectivity of things written here. However, it is beyond the power of one person (Max), alas.
I have already expressed my own opinion on the matter metal tuning pin bushings,sandpaper. I am opposed to their use in such cases, if the we shall hammer a pin into a pinblock after setting it's. Only screwing it's but this is my opinion only
Regards, maxim_tuner from Kazakhstan

I am only suggesting that a few near pins be tested before and after using any sort of "dry" repair, where something is inserted into the hole and the pin reinstalled.

Joe,I understood you. It is necessary that the video has been shown that the neighboring pins started to stay the desired position. However, I have not this in any of my videos. This is a serious omission my acts. I can only say that this is the main condition for such a procedure. Namely, make demonstrate of complete fixation nearby pins. Thanks for the advice. I will do this in the future. However ...
Here is my video where one of the three lost pin "F" sound . Max in the online regime tested it's at the beginning of repair. A pin "refused" to fix and keeping need be of tighten . Max then made a complete repair cycle. At the end of Max demonstrates the successful installation procedures of a shim. Lost pin sound "F" "found it's place" again

_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2087157 - 05/23/13 03:42 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7660
Loc: France
Max, what is said is to test pins on a row, around the one you want to correct ; if the pins are all loose on that line, but the ones above or under are tight, the block is cracked and adding material will mostly enlarge the crack.

Cracks may be in vertical or horizontal but are most often horizontal (vertical piano)

They are not visible, often .
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2087186 - 05/23/13 06:51 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Max, what is said is to test pins on a row, around the one you want to correct ; if the pins are all loose on that line, but the ones above or under are tight, the block is cracked and adding material will mostly enlarge the crack.

Cracks may be in vertical or horizontal but are most often horizontal (vertical piano)

They are not visible, often .

Isaac, I understood what you are saying about. Yes, Max in his video "cures" single episodic pin. I wrote about this in earlier posts.
One thing I agree with you that if the block is cracked, then a shims don't be able to solve the problem. But let me disagree that shims of cardboard can significantly enlarge the crack of pinblock. It's very soft and thin. Rather, shims will be pointless if a split occurred block. I'm think so
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2087191 - 05/23/13 07:11 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Hello Maxim,

This is also where CA can be of advantage... if the block is cracked, but not too badly cracked.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2087199 - 05/23/13 07:41 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Maxim,

This is also where CA can be of advantage... if the block is cracked, but not too badly cracked.

It is. Joe, I wanted to ask you what you think of the application of the adhesive in such cases, if in it's based will a naphtha. For example to preparing a liquid PVA mix with a naphtha 1:2?


Edited by Maximillyan (05/23/13 07:41 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2087241 - 05/23/13 09:09 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Maxim,

This is also where CA can be of advantage... if the block is cracked, but not too badly cracked.

It is. Joe, I wanted to ask you what you think of the application of the adhesive in such cases, if in it's based will a naphtha. For example to preparing a liquid PVA mix with a naphtha 1:2?


I have never used PVA on a pinblock. I do not know.

I have used (dry) sandpaper, metal bushings, and (wet) various glycerine/alcohol mixtures, and CA. I'm sure I will eventually try Maxim's cardboard method and see the results.

Of course, CA should not be used on extremely valuable pianos. But, is is useful for pianos where expensive rebuilding procedures are not an option.

One advantage of CA is that is begins to set up immediately. You can often tune the piano during the same trip that you apply CA, saving the customer money and saving the tuner gasoline.

Here is a link to a short article about CA:
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/woodwo...u-need-to-know/

One other thing, Maxim,
CA is useful for more than just repairing pinblocks.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2087654 - 05/23/13 09:42 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Maxim,

This is also where CA can be of advantage... if the block is cracked, but not too badly cracked.

It is. Joe, I wanted to ask you what you think of the application of the adhesive in such cases, if in it's based will a naphtha. For example to preparing a liquid PVA mix with a naphtha 1:2?


I have used (dry) sandpaper, metal bushings, and (wet) various glycerine/alcohol mixtures, and CA. I'm sure I will eventually try Maxim's cardboard method and see the results.

Here is a link to a short article about CA:
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/woodwo...u-need-to-know/

Hi,Joe.
Thanks for link about CA.
Tell us if you can read more about using the (dry) and (wet) of various glycerol / alcohol mixtures and CA. What were your results? What it turned out better than others. What been universal material?
Max would be very grateful to you for trying to use a cardboard shim. He be waiting for the result. Even if the result is negative. For Max is a great honor that the American professional technician will make experiments with cardboard.
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2087665 - 05/23/13 10:10 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Hello Maxim,

I only experimented with various mixtures that were already made. The results seemed unpredictable. Sometimes it would help, sometimes not. The same with the other metal bushings.

If Maxim's cardboard shim does work well, this could form a bridge between two different views of correcting loose pins.

There was discussion of using CA only on low cost pianos, not on high cost pianos.

If Maxim's cardboard shim method does seem to work most of the time, it really would be of benefit. Unlike CA or other chemical treatments, the cardboard shim does not permanently alter the wood in the pinblock.

If it works, it could be used on a high price piano until it needs to be restrung. The pinblock holes can then be reamed and oversize pins installed. It could hold loose pins until restringing without altering the wood.

If CA or other chemicals are used, it is usually best to replace the entire pinblock when it is time to restring. Maxim's way, the piano's owner will have a choice of whether to use oversize pins, or put in a new pinblock and stay with new pins of the original size.

Maxim, I am honored that you are honored. But, i am only an ordinary piano tuner in a small town. smile

.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2087674 - 05/23/13 10:32 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1201
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Let's say I get this job to do, on a 80 year old famous brand name 7 footer.

Knowing that I would be replacing the pinblock anyways, I would use CA to try and tune as best I can. Before the rebuilding job. In order to at least get close to what the piano could do.

If it holds, that is when I take my measurements.

CA in no way when properly used will impede the future installation of a new pinblock. It can actually help. (even if improperly used)

And before it's use; pianos were going to the dump.

So a cardboard fix? The labour involved, the time needed and the way less predictable results. Come on!!

If I'm going to take the time to remove a pin, put cardboard around it and screw it back in! Come on. Just put a number 3 in!!!

Oh, but that's right, you don't have access to a number 3 pin. And you don't believe in pounding pins in.

So... Seeing as there seems to be plenty of acoustic instruments in your part of the world, CA glue should easily be found. No?

End of rant.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2087694 - 05/23/13 11:21 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Jean,

That is not what I am saying.

I am saying that if a pinblock is chemically treated, either with pin tightener or CA glue, you should probably not re-use that pinblock by installing oversize pins when you restring. That option is pretty much off the table. You should then replace the pinblock.

Pins can come loose, but the block itself can still have good structural integrity. This could be even a 20 or 40 year old grand, not an 80 year old grand.

If the cardboard shims work, the client will then have the choice of either installing a new block, or re-using the old block with oversize pins when it is time to restring.

Edit: If the coils are already precariously close to the plate on loose pins, the more alternatives the better.


Edited by daniokeeper (05/24/13 12:12 AM)
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2088201 - 05/24/13 05:46 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1201
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Whenever I completely restring a grand piano, I always replace the pinblock.

But, in no way does CA application prevent a technician to use an oversize pin if the treatment does not work.

On uprights, which rarely justify installation of a new pinblock, I don't see why, if the pinblock is still structually sound and been treated with CA that you could not use oversized pins.

I think it would actually help in me having confidence in the pinblock holding up and it's structural integrity reinforced by the earlier CA treatment.

I have used CA now for about 10 years, and these pianos are still being tuned regularly. In other words another ten years added to their life and still going.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2088216 - 05/24/13 06:16 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7660
Loc: France
You would bore and resize the hole then ?
I really wonder what level of control on the pin one have on those CA ed blocks. Perfect, if it saves the instrument, but what is the quality of the tuning ?
The witnessing from a colleague that works on old instruments with CA is that the friction is not similar as with a normal block.

You may have pianos in really deseperate condition, due to the climate probably. We are lucky there that pianos are generally "tuneable" , even with loose pins.

ANd restringing allow to keep the block unless the piano is really old or had suffered


Edited by Olek (05/24/13 06:19 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2088222 - 05/24/13 06:24 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Jean,

I don't do that many restringing jobs. But, I personally am uncomfortable using oversize in with a pinblock that has been chemically treated by anything, including CA glue.

Restringing, reaming the holes, installing the new pins and strings as well as other miscellaneous things such as bridge repairs, is an expensive procedure that should last decades in some applications.

I just am not 100% sure that a block treated with CA will maintain tuning pin torque decade after decade as well as an untreated pinblock. It may be so, but

With vertical pianos, I do see your point. Replacing the block on a vertical is more difficult than on a grand. But even on verticals, there are other options such as plugs. On a vertical piano, I think it would be a case-by-case judgment taking into account more info such as type of piano (player?) value, anticipated usage, etc.

But back to Maxim's cardboard shims...
I am certainly not suggesting the CA glue be abandoned. But, there may may be times, now and again when dealing with one or two loose pins, that Maxim's idea might be tried. If it works... great! If not, no harm is done.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2088236 - 05/24/13 06:33 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1201
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Yes rebore obviously.

Pins are tunable after treatment, what friction they have makes them tunable.

Different new pinblocks have different friction and feel. Too tight, jumpy, clicking, unevenness etc... or just perfect.

CA glue will result in any of those types of friction, which we as tuners can deal with, as long as they hold.

I just did a grand 2 weeks ago. Some pins my lever would return by itself. That is how loose they were.

I explained the problem to the customer and he understood very well.

I did two passes of CA and an hour later tuned the piano. Some pins were still on the loose side and I told the customer. The overall experience was a success. His daughter, grade 5, was still playing on an electronic keyboard, now she can play on a grand.

I suspect, and the customer is aware, that I may have to return soon with maybe 3 or 4 oversized pins.

I am also willing, and so is the customer (having witnessed the efficacity of CA) to flip the piano upside down (It's a very small grand 4'11" or something) and CA from the bottom of the pinblock.

This customer got the piano for free, and has 3 children taking lessons. He paid for the move to get it to his house. 10 years ago I would of felt really bad to tell him his piano was shot, or spend thousands of dollars to have it rebuilt. Now, he is one happy camper.

Regards
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2088262 - 05/24/13 07:01 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Jean, I agree completely re CA treatment. I often use it, too. Yes, it has saved many pianos from the landfill.

But, would you use CA glue on the pinblock of a $150,000 piano?
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2088265 - 05/24/13 07:11 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1201
Loc: Qubec, Canada
A 150,000$ piano should not need CA right?

If I had to rebuild let's say a 100 year old Steinway D, like I said, I would replace the pinblock without a doubt.

But before rebuilding it, I would CA the block to see if I could tune the piano to at least get some idea of what it sounded like. Then take downbearing measurements etc... before taking it apart.

CA works and does not impede future restoration. That is my bottom line.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2088270 - 05/24/13 07:13 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1201
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Would you use a cardboard fix on a 150,000$ piano? Your question is irelevant.

Regards.

PS. I mean no disrespect to anybody here on this forum, I just need to rant once in a while.

All the best.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2088277 - 05/24/13 07:34 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: accordeur]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Would you use a cardboard fix on a 150,000$ piano? Your question is irelevant.

Regards.

PS. I mean no disrespect to anybody here on this forum, I just need to rant once in a while.

All the best.


I might... If I wanted leave open the possibility of re-using the same block.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2088363 - 05/24/13 11:58 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Maxim,

I only experimented with various mixtures that were already made. The results seemed unpredictable. Sometimes it would help, sometimes not. The same with the other metal bushings.

If Maxim's cardboard shim does work well, this could form a bridge between two different views of correcting loose pins.

There was discussion of using CA only on low cost pianos, not on high cost pianos.

If Maxim's cardboard shim method does seem to work most of the time, it really would be of benefit. Unlike CA or other chemical treatments, the cardboard shim does not permanently alter the wood in the pinblock.

If it works, it could be used on a high price piano until it needs to be restrung. The pinblock holes can then be reamed and oversize pins installed. It could hold loose pins until restringing without altering the wood.

If CA or other chemicals are used, it is usually best to replace the entire pinblock when it is time to restring. Maxim's way, the piano's owner will have a choice of whether to use oversize pins, or put in a new pinblock and stay with new pins of the original size.

Maxim, I am honored that you are honored. But, i am only an ordinary piano tuner in a small town. smile

.

Hi,Joe.
Thanks for good words a cardboard about.
"It is better to be first in Venice, than second in Rome."
Son of fisher Mikhail Lomonosov from Arhangelska came with a wagon train of frozen fish in Moscow. As time went on he became the first President of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
"No small man.
Have great goals"
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2088367 - 05/25/13 12:04 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: accordeur]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: accordeur
So a cardboard fix? The labour involved, the time needed and the way less predictable results. Come on!!
End of rant.

Lack of time is not an argument
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2088369 - 05/25/13 12:17 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1080
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Hi,Joe.
Thanks for good words a cardboard about.
"It is better to be first in Venice, than second in Rome."
Son of fisher Mikhail Lomonosov from Arhangelska came with a wagon train of frozen fish in Moscow. As time went on he became the first President of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
"No small man.
Have great goals"


I very much like this saying! smile

I will keep my eyes open for a piano that seems like it is a good candidate for Maxim's cardboard shim. I do not know how soon I will find one. But, I do promise that I will try.

Thank you,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

Top
#2088490 - 05/25/13 10:24 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Hi,Joe.
Thanks for good words a cardboard about.
"It is better to be first in Venice, than second in Rome."
Son of fisher Mikhail Lomonosov from Arhangelska came with a wagon train of frozen fish in Moscow. As time went on he became the first President of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
"No small man.
Have great goals"


I will keep my eyes open for a piano that seems like it is a good candidate for Maxim's cardboard shim. I do not know how soon I will find one. But, I do promise that I will try.

We shall wait without time limitation
"Ищите, да обрящите"
(If you look for obryaschite (will find))
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2088503 - 05/25/13 10:53 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
If the coils are already precariously close to the plate on loose pins, the more alternatives the better.

This is not modest, but Max never has the coils precariously close to the plate. Because, to use "a sledgehammer to a treatment" is not our method. A sledgehammer can save a lump sum, but a pinblok is crying...
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2088508 - 05/25/13 11:10 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: accordeur]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: accordeur
A 150,000$ piano should not need CA right?

If I had to rebuild let's say a 100 year old Steinway D, like I said, I would replace the pinblock without a doubt.

But before rebuilding it, I would CA the block to see if I could tune the piano to at least get some idea of what it sounded like. Then take downbearing measurements etc... before taking it apart.

CA works and does not impede future restoration. That is my bottom line.

Jean,it's a very positive information. If the use the CA
does not damage a pinblock
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
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