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#2088516 - 05/25/13 11:31 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hello Maxim,

This is also where CA can be of advantage... if the block is cracked, but not too badly cracked.

It is. Joe, I wanted to ask you what you think of the application of the adhesive in such cases, if in it's based will a naphtha. For example to preparing a liquid PVA mix with a naphtha 1:2?

Here is a link to a short article about CA:
http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/woodwo...u-need-to-know/

Turners and luthiers fill cracks and small voids in raw wood by filling them with sanding dust, then dropping CA into the powder to form a solid plug. Thin versions will seep into even the smallest of fractures. Because it is moisture activated, it will work on wet wood, green wood, and pressure treated wood.

Another evidence of the effectiveness of the СA. A gluing pieces of wood are not in doubt. However, there is also a metal pin.

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#2088556 - 05/25/13 12:46 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1148
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
This is not modest, but Max never has the coils precariously close to the plate. Because, to use "a sledgehammer to a treatment" is not our method. A sledgehammer can save a lump sum, but a pinblok is crying...


This is interesting! Over here, it is not unusual to tap (hammer gently) a loose pin. Sometimes, this is done too often and the coil could come precariously close to the plate.

"Because, to use "a sledgehammer to a treatment" is not our method."
Are you saying that this is not Maxim's method? Or, are you saying that tapping the pins is considered disreputable by most tuners where you are?

Thanks,
-Joe
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2088581 - 05/25/13 01:34 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
This is not modest, but Max never has the coils precariously close to the plate. Because, to use "a sledgehammer to a treatment" is not our method. A sledgehammer can save a lump sum, but a pinblok is crying...


Are you saying that this is not Maxim's method? Or, are you saying that tapping the pins is considered disreputable by most tuners where you are?

Hi,Joe.
A hammering is a common practice of fix a pin. In the Russian transcription A tap verbiles."Добивание вербиля". I originally denied the method because there were negative effects for me. I had to fix it. Max denied it and was looking for an alternative. He found a corrugated cardboard.

Alternative or misleading?

Time will judge it


Edited by Maximillyan (05/25/13 02:25 PM)

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#2088589 - 05/25/13 01:43 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1148
Loc: PA
I understand. You were finding too many coils close to the plate and wanted an alternative? So, you devised the cardboard shim. Very good!

As we say over here, "You were thinking outside of the box."
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2088592 - 05/25/13 01:52 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
I understand. You were finding too many coils close to the plate and wanted an alternative? So, you devised the cardboard shim. Very good!

As we say over here, "You were thinking outside of the box."

We say
Sees the root "Зрить в корень"

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#2088980 - 05/26/13 01:34 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ

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#2089010 - 05/26/13 04:38 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
Reobably all those people that does not want to pay or cannot find a tuner (or many wannabees or self taught) for their pîano are killing their pin blocks (as are doing many real piano tuners probably without noticing, by using sanding motion with their tuning market)

A decent piano pinblock, manipulated by a good tuner should allow tuning even even 80 years later.

Hammering works because it allow the very small supplement of torque that allow to do again a normal pin setting process. very little is necessary you dont need the full torque to realise pin setting simply it is of course more easy and more secure when the torque is not just on a small few mm part of the tuning pin to begin with, but along the tuning, the torque raise as more parts of the pin are contacting firmly a roughened surface in the hole.

the carboard may work due to the rosin like agent within the cardboard, wood shims where and are a standard method, but the main problem is they dont offer a fiber orientation suiteable for tuning.


Usually a correctly tuned piano will move eventually at string's level,due to reactions to seasonal changes.
Most of the time if I hear a drift on an unison mean's I find a string that RAISED, not the opposite.

Guess why?




Edited by Olek (05/26/13 04:46 AM)
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#2089036 - 05/26/13 06:30 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
THey state CA is used by violin makers or piano tuners, but I have my doubts about how that glue is holding when submitted to vibrations,
If not that should be a good help to secure unglued ribs, repair soundboard cracks, assuming a correct "charge" (wood or other material dust to thicken the glue)

In my case I hate how wood glued with CA suddenly get unglued, without much possibilities to glue back.

But indeed there may certainly be some qualities that do the job, as it seem to be used on wood lathes.

Resistance to micro vibrations and wood motion (hygrometry) is really the question in the end.

For tuning I did not find yet a piano I could not tune with normal techniques or a light tapping (one only a very old wooden framed piano)

I question the grip, as the colleague who use it tells me the pin is stopped but have no more friction, so it cannot be manipulated the same as with normal fine tuning (tensionning the front segment and the pin) If that process is not made availeable the tuning precision must stay too low.

the glue collar in the wood is certainly not rough but smooth.




Edited by Olek (05/26/13 07:50 AM)
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#2089048 - 05/26/13 07:36 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
pianolive Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 332
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Olek
THey satet CA is used by violin makers or piano tuners


Violin makers using CA glue, for what???
They use warm glue (Hautleim) like we do to glue the hammers and other parts. Fish glue is good too, but have a bad smell.

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#2089052 - 05/26/13 07:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
Yes but those are US based documentation, widely available with the Internet, Ca at every meal from early morning to late evening.

Woodworking in USA seem to make a huge use of CA, I question if they have some qualities that are unavailable to us (I doubt of that) or if this is simply that a glue that can be used in a pinch, and without pressing ,get the suffrage for that reason.

I have a grand action cradle in wood that can be folded, that I bought from Flugelbauer. One part serving to fold was broken during the transportation, he said me to glue it back with CA, implying the stack ws glued with similar glue, It seem to be holding fine, so I wonder.

I know that one reputed Forte and historical instruments I know use some ca to tighten a loose bridge pin (occasionally and on very low torque setups)

I cannot imagine violin maker using CA, but who knows ..

That said in France I have seen the result of some overenthusiastic "violin maker" (certainly a wannabee but with enough "mirror ans smokes" to be credible by other mirror and smoke guys) that take a perfectly nice old violin, put in in a bah of polyurethane lacquer, bore a long hole in the handle so "the tone can escapes" and insert colored points on the handle so the child find the note location easily.

Perfectly playable violin turned in a piece of plastic for 400€ (price for friends).

When credibility goes together with mystics, we live a wonderful world. I say that knowledgeable persons should be more audible, as any empty place in knowledge will be filled soon with tons of BS.




Edited by Olek (05/26/13 07:59 AM)
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#2089118 - 05/26/13 10:44 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
the carboard may work due to the rosin like agent within the cardboard, wood shims where and are a standard method, but the main problem is they dont offer a fiber orientation suite able for tuning.

Isaac I do not understood the course of your thought. Why do you compare a cardboard shim as rosin? Yes, indeed, with a certain degree of conditionality can be assumed that 5-7% of the starch ( corrugated cardboard) in the process of screwing in act like resin.
The uneven the location of of cardboard fibers
the entire area of ​​the hole at the moment of screwing a pin of the method are costs of.

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#2089127 - 05/26/13 11:02 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
I believe the carboard contains some glue or a product that add friction, if not a simple carboard would be efficient and it is not.

Also may be the corrugated carboard can be impreganted with diluted rosin (colophony) and then dried before use.




Edited by Olek (05/26/13 11:03 AM)
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#2089139 - 05/26/13 11:24 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Also may be the corrugated carboard can be impreganted with diluted rosin (colophony) and then dried before use.

If the composition of corrugated cardboard have colophony it's (+) to use as a shim.

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#2089163 - 05/26/13 12:14 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
I said you can add colophony
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#2089172 - 05/26/13 12:34 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1148
Loc: PA
Isaac,

If we are going to discuss CA glue methods, there is an additional method that should be included.

The following is not my invention. It is a method I read about that was developed by someone else. However, it has proven very effective. It is a method I use in the field... when working on site.

That method is to use both CA glue and Titebond glue.

The CA sets quickly and i even accelerated by the Titebond. But, the Titebond is there for strength. Apply CA to one surface and Titebond to the other. The client then has an immediately usable piano. But, the repair will reach maximum strength the next day when the Titebond cures.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2089197 - 05/26/13 01:14 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Loren D Offline
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Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2547
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Olek
I believe the carboard contains some glue or a product that add friction, if not a simple carboard would be efficient and it is not.

Also may be the corrugated carboard can be impreganted with diluted rosin (colophony) and then dried before use.




Cardboard is made of paper. Paper is wood fiber and pulp. So strictly speaking shimming with cardboard = shimming with wood.
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#2089198 - 05/26/13 01:15 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
Well those products have some usefulness but I am overwhelmed by the CA, , the US techs think CA for anything that should be repaired, less time spend, more money made...

That CA+ white glue tip is useful indeed.

But the "what if I use jelly beam to lubricate the centers" thing is what make younger techs not even aware of standard long used methods (where the repair is supposed to hold until the part is changed)
Also , a glued part is supposed to be unglued some day, and repaired (for instance ivories)

I cannot get along with the "global CA" mentality, if you see what I mean.
_________________________
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#2089201 - 05/26/13 01:26 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1148
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Olek
Well those products have some usefulness but I am overwhelmed by the CA, , the US techs think CA for anything that should be repaired, less time spend, more money made...

That CA+ white glue tip is useful indeed.

But the "what if I use jelly beam to lubricate the centers" thing is what make younger techs not even aware of standard long used methods (where the repair is supposed to hold until the part is changed)
Also , a glued part is supposed to be unglued some day, and repaired (for instance ivories)

I cannot get along with the "global CA" mentality, if you see what I mean.



Isaac,

Of course, you have to do what you think is best. We all do.

Btw, it's CA and yellow glue. smile


Edited by daniokeeper (05/26/13 01:27 PM)
_________________________
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Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2089586 - 05/26/13 10:45 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
I said you can add colophony

Sorry, I did not understood, Isaac. If you add the colophony, that is to rub it's a pin during installation. Perhaps it will add friction. However, at the time of hammering or screwing it would be damaging moment. It is my opinion. Or am I wrong?

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#2089592 - 05/26/13 10:50 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper

That method is to use both CA glue and Titebond glue.

Hi,Joe.
The use of the mix of the two glues?

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#2089600 - 05/26/13 10:57 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1148
Loc: PA
Hi Maxim,

I apply a little of one type of glue to one surface, then a little of the other type to the other surface. Then, press together. But, do not use too much of either glue. Just enough to make a very thin cover on each piece.

Practice and experience will teach the correct amounts. smile
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2089648 - 05/26/13 11:52 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Olek
I believe the carboard contains some glue or a product that add friction, if not a simple carboard would be efficient and it is not.

Also may be the corrugated carboard can be impreganted with diluted rosin (colophony) and then dried before use.




Cardboard is made of paper. Paper is wood fiber and pulp. So strictly speaking shimming with cardboard = shimming with wood.

Thank you Loren D.
All 100% true
A cardboard shim is destroyed in the process a screwing of a pin. I specifically analyzed this process for more than 10 years ago. I installed the pin with a cardboard shim . A pin started to work it is necessary for keep the tone. A week later I twisted off it's again. And deleted a shim. Initially, I installed 3 mm. strip of cardboard, now it was little more a (1.5) mm. Where we had left it half (1.5) mm? I think part of the paper fibers were separated from a shim. It's (fibers ) was covered a hole of pinblock and a bush, partly of course. That is, we made a treatment of hairline cracks around the hole used the pulps. In this method, the soft shim loses the material from which is made to coat the hole and a bush. To increasing it's.
The only negative point. We do not know what destruction has a hole. In some cases, it is only necessary 2 mm. in other 4mm. Standard 3mm cardboard optimal for such repair. However, the technician must feel yourself the necessary thickness of the material. He feels it's when deletes a pin. As a pin start whistling during removing
Isaac is right, a distribution of cardboard fiber not the way it was done originally in a pinblock . This negatively. However, for such a cheap repair folk I consider acceptable

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#2089649 - 05/26/13 11:57 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Hi Maxim,

I apply a little of one type of glue to one surface, then a little of the other type to the other surface. Then, press together. But, do not use too much of either glue. Just enough to make a very thin cover on each piece.

Practice and experience will teach the correct amounts. smile

Hi, Joe. I see now

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#2091112 - 05/29/13 02:59 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: accordeur]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: accordeur
And you don't believe in pounding pins in.
End of rant.

Yes, I think a hammering (pounding pins in) is poor practice. I have personally witnessed such a method. A pitch lasted less than six months. A pin had loose tighten. Loose pin been the neighboring but not that a pin which been hammered. I long time had think about it's. I found and did a cardboard shim

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#2091117 - 05/29/13 03:10 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper

I use it because it gives me excellent results as to tuning stability. But, I do pay a price for using it.



When the lever is about 11:00 12:00 the position is
advantageous whatever side you are sitting.


I would say that the pin is better set with that orientation, but generally we do not like to change the lever posture while tuning, if possible.

What I said above apply to a lever in 9:00 11:00 where the weight of the tool is acting on the tuning pin more.

If we shall use method of tuning a upright piano (9-12), and grand piano (3-6), the stability of the pitch will be much longer time. I think so

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#2091122 - 05/29/13 03:22 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
As suggested, it is not worth pursue discussions with you.
_________________________
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.! Euh.... sorry for the lengthy postings, I cannot refrain writing !

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#2091125 - 05/29/13 03:38 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
As suggested, it is not worth pursue discussions with you.

WHY

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#2100147 - 06/10/13 08:23 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: OperaTenor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
I tune left-handed, and was taught to set the lever in the 9-12:00 zone.
I've never had a problem with stability.

But spanish man no left-handed. I'm think so he has many talks on native language about a level of a hammer (9-12)
Or I'm so that think about (9-12) is false?
http://www.heyy.tv/iBI9_Svc4flLC

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#2299676 - 07/07/14 10:59 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1664
Loc: KZ
Here are two videos where Englishman uses a similar technique (15-18) down tuning the grand piano. If we consider the construction of upright piano like an inverted grand piano here. Then technique tuning upright piano (9-12) is moving a handle up and the grand piano (15-18) down respectively.

http://youtu.be/4gcazZWB2uA
http://youtu.be/HT7-AeWcrxA

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#2299708 - 07/08/14 01:51 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 8531
Loc: France
This show too brutal listening then the ear is annoyed with ambient noises, as he say.

I hear no (much) tone work may be those are new strings that need to be exercised.
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by Musicdude
08/29/15 06:53 AM
Yamaha CLP 535, Roland HP 504 or Yamaha CLP 575?
by CR37
08/29/15 05:30 AM
you tune the first string
by Olek
08/29/15 01:59 AM
Has anyone used Leila Fletcher method?
by blueston
08/28/15 10:35 PM
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