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#2299784 - 07/08/14 08:30 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 189
Loc: Montreal
Interesting - I used to use that tuner in the 1990s when I lived just outside of Machester - he worked for Forsyth. They had sent another tuner but he did a crap job so I complained and got this guy. The parking ticket I received picking him up from the store (he's blind) was rescinded when I explained the situation! He still didn't do as good a job as the tuner we used to have when I was a child (the one doing the ladder of thirds sequence in the 1970s smile ).

Paul.

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#2299854 - 07/08/14 12:18 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: rxd]
MarkyRich Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/28/14
Posts: 5
Loc: South Australia


"Solid techniques that don't wear the pin block have been discussed at length in Max's other thread and I know some intelligent tuners have gained a lot from that discussion, even though others, it seems, haven't. That's the great thing about an international forum like this, thousands, if not millions of people can learn from the replies even if the original poster learns nothing. I am confident that there are (and will be when others read the archives in the future) enough tuners out there who can sort the wheat from the chaff and gain from these discussions.

Anybody aspiring to first class concert work will find it the easiest work they ever did if they will learn the most efficient ways of working. "



Hi troops, I would appreciate it if anyone can give links to some of these "solid techniques" for tuning and setting pins. Can't seem to find them. I received my tuning lever a week ago and am practicing daily tweaking notes (I wish to be an aural tuner) and loving it, Cheers for now.

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#2300046 - 07/08/14 11:16 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: MarkyRich]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: MarkyRich


"Solid techniques that don't wear the pin block have been discussed at length in Max's other thread and I know some intelligent tuners have gained a lot from that discussion, even though others, it seems, haven't. That's the great thing about an international forum like this, thousands, if not millions of people can learn from the replies even if the original poster learns nothing. I am confident that there are (and will be when others read the archives in the future) enough tuners out there who can sort the wheat from the chaff and gain from these discussions.

Anybody aspiring to first class concert work will find it the easiest work they ever did if they will learn the most efficient ways of working. "



Hi troops, I would appreciate it if anyone can give links to some of these "solid techniques" for tuning and setting pins. Can't seem to find them. I received my tuning lever a week ago and am practicing daily tweaking notes (I wish to be an aural tuner) and loving it, Cheers for now.

Hi, MarkyRich.
Thanks for the kind words addressed to me. It is like a refreshing balm for my soul. Max has invented nothing new he has only substantiated that (9-12) is the method to be. Because Max works with oldest upright piano and use it's. I agree with you that "I know some intelligent tuners have gained a lot from that discussion, " Perhaps they do not agree and they could be express their point of view. Only in a dispute born truth, I'm think so. I got a lot of necessary and useful information here. I try to use it's in my practice. Despite the lack of time and my poor knowledge of English I'm still try reading more and trying to improve their own skills. Thank you to OUR forum!
Good luck in trying to tuning your piano. Try to comprehend in first time what you want and shall do before just will acts your practice. And try more theoretical justification subject of a temperament. You can make it, we believe in yours tuning, good luck.
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2300050 - 07/08/14 11:39 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: pyropaul]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Interesting - I used to use that tuner in the 1990s when I lived just outside of Machester - he worked for Forsyth. They had sent another tuner but he did a crap job so I complained and got this guy. The parking ticket I received picking him up from the store (he's blind) was rescinded when I explained the situation! He still didn't do as good a job as the tuner we used to have when I was a child (the one doing the ladder of thirds sequence in the 1970s smile ).

Paul.


Hi,Paul. A touching story. Thank you. I do not quite understood you, were you satisfied with the services of Lewis tuner? Here verification of the work performed for a grand piano: http://youtu.be/sBKsXK5la7g
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2300052 - 07/08/14 11:47 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
I hear no (much) tone work may be those are new strings that need to be exercised.

Hi,Isaac
Can be nor new strings but it's a hammers is hard without need rumpled?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2300118 - 07/09/14 06:20 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Interesting - I used to use that tuner in the 1990s when I lived just outside of Machester - he worked for Forsyth. They had sent another tuner but he did a crap job so I complained and got this guy. The parking ticket I received picking him up from the store (he's blind) was rescinded when I explained the situation! He still didn't do as good a job as the tuner we used to have when I was a child (the one doing the ladder of thirds sequence in the 1970s smile ).

Paul.


Hi,Paul. A touching story. Thank you. I do not quite understood you, were you satisfied with the services of Lewis tuner? Here verification of the work performed for a grand piano: http://youtu.be/sBKsXK5la7g


That is interesting to see that video.

It is clear to me hey do not "listen" (at all, only at the stability of the string)
If I close my eyes I hear yet some resonant spots where I would have tuned the note. It may be just the moment where the tone is optimum due to NSL, but it does not seem to be taken in account there.



Edited by Olek (07/09/14 06:21 AM)
_________________________
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#2300160 - 07/09/14 08:59 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Interesting - I used to use that tuner in the 1990s when I lived just outside of Machester - he worked for Forsyth. They had sent another tuner but he did a crap job so I complained and got this guy. The parking ticket I received picking him up from the store (he's blind) was rescinded when I explained the situation! He still didn't do as good a job as the tuner we used to have when I was a child (the one doing the ladder of thirds sequence in the 1970s smile ).

Paul.



Hi,Paul. A touching story. Thank you. I do not quite understood you, were you satisfied with the services of Lewis tuner? Here verification of the work performed for a grand piano: http://youtu.be/sBKsXK5la7g


That is interesting to see that video.

It is clear to me hey do not "listen" (at all, only at the stability of the string)
If I close my eyes I hear yet some resonant spots where I would have tuned the note. It may be just the moment where the tone is optimum due to NSL, but it does not seem to be taken in account there.


May still be taken into account their these resonances so, Isaac. Because the instrument displays the standard pitch. NSL is a "living" piano miking all that can be felt only a professional tuner
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2300181 - 07/09/14 09:34 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Interesting - I used to use that tuner in the 1990s when I lived just outside of Machester - he worked for Forsyth. They had sent another tuner but he did a crap job so I complained and got this guy. The parking ticket I received picking him up from the store (he's blind) was rescinded when I explained the situation! He still didn't do as good a job as the tuner we used to have when I was a child (the one doing the ladder of thirds sequence in the 1970s smile ).

Paul.



Hi,Paul. A touching story. Thank you. I do not quite understood you, were you satisfied with the services of Lewis tuner? Here verification of the work performed for a grand piano: http://youtu.be/sBKsXK5la7g


That is interesting to see that video.

It is clear to me hey do not "listen" (at all, only at the stability of the string)
If I close my eyes I hear yet some resonant spots where I would have tuned the note. It may be just the moment where the tone is optimum due to NSL, but it does not seem to be taken in account there.


May still be taken into account their these resonances so, Isaac. Because the instrument displays the standard pitch. NSL is a "living" piano miking all that can be felt only a professional tuner


Not only Max, I think it can be heard, I analyzed a little more and some notes sound better the second time because they have been raised up a hair, hence probably a more tense NSL.

The intervals also are more musical after the second tuning, to me. Always those mistakes G# as I noticed with VT as well.

close your eyes and listen I can give the notes name later I have to go by now.


Edited by Olek (07/09/14 09:35 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2300187 - 07/09/14 09:44 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pyropaul
Interesting - I used to use that tuner in the 1990s when I lived just outside of Machester - he worked for Forsyth. They had sent another tuner but he did a crap job so I complained and got this guy. The parking ticket I received picking him up from the store (he's blind) was rescinded when I explained the situation! He still didn't do as good a job as the tuner we used to have when I was a child (the one doing the ladder of thirds sequence in the 1970s smile ).

Paul.



Hi,Paul. A touching story. Thank you. I do not quite understood you, were you satisfied with the services of Lewis tuner? Here verification of the work performed for a grand piano: http://youtu.be/sBKsXK5la7g


That is interesting to see that video.

It is clear to me hey do not "listen" (at all, only at the stability of the string)
If I close my eyes I hear yet some resonant spots where I would have tuned the note. It may be just the moment where the tone is optimum due to NSL, but it does not seem to be taken in account there.


May still be taken into account their these resonances so, Isaac. Because the instrument displays the standard pitch. NSL is a "living" piano miking all that can be felt only a professional tuner


Not only Max, I think it can be heard, I analyzed a little more and some notes sound better the second time because they have been raised up a hair, hence probably a more tense NSL.

The intervals also are more musical after the second tuning, to me. Always those mistakes G# as I noticed with VT as well.

close your eyes and listen I can give the notes name later I have to go by now.

I shall make a try to test your words about "a more tense NSL" after second time
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2300256 - 07/09/14 01:24 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Ivan Jochner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 15
Max,


Here is your video of your piano tuning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Z-iUuB2ko

In the end you are checking octaves and you call it "BEATLESS"?????


And this is supposed to be Temperament when piano is tuned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6xTnXEZvzs&index=10&list=PL5-llYEcJG1XZZtbgURibrhd02WTSqzm-

What kind of tuning is it, it`s complete DISASTER!


Edited by Ivan Jochner (07/09/14 02:18 PM)

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#2300477 - 07/09/14 10:38 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Ivan Jochner]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Ivan Jochner
Max,


Here is your video of your piano tuning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Z-iUuB2ko

In the end you are checking octaves and you call it "BEATLESS"?????


And this is supposed to be Temperament when piano is tuned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6xTnXEZvzs&index=10&list=PL5-llYEcJG1XZZtbgURibrhd02WTSqzm-

What kind of tuning is it, it`s complete DISASTER!

Yes, Ivan, you are right it is really a disaster. These innocent videos that you had put links here it's made more than 3 years ago. Were included camera and filmed it. Max had tuned used him T-bar. And what? Some of the laity may watched it. Russian laity do not have funds to tune pianos could understand something here and pull a few strings on his piano, and nothing more. Why you express aggression against me here? I am not a professional piano's tuner. I'm trying to understand some basics temperament and put them into practice in my province. That's all.
And the main thing. Here we considers the possibility of applying the provisions of the handle hammer when a tuning rather than perfection or bad Max's temperament .Therefore I ask you don't speak about it here. But if you're seriously trying to belittle the temperament Max you are welcome here:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2280659/1.html
Regards,Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2300506 - 07/10/14 12:06 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Ivan is not logical that you had done when to removed these links today:
http://youtu.be/HT7-AeWcrxA

http://youtu.be/4gcazZWB2uA
The fact that many of them have seen here. They expressed their opinion about the method of handle technique hammer (15-18) down. Paul even been knew Lewis tuner and what? Hide the obvious advantages of this method, you do not succeed, because it is seen and analyzed regulars our forum


Edited by Maximillyan (07/10/14 12:09 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2300573 - 07/10/14 04:11 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Ivan Jochner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/01/13
Posts: 15
Hi Max, that`s very good to know that you are improving your skills and learning.

Well done!


I published videos of Graham Lewis for a short time in order to share with my thoughts about his tuning with Russian technicians forum.
Those videos of Graham were done 2 years ago when i worked with him. That time i asked him a question :

" Could i show his work to my colleagues piano tuners?"

The answer was "Yes".

But now i want to ask his permission to have it on You tube permanently. There is a big difference to show some videos at home and have it on a You tube.

I will contact Graham an ask him nicely again.

Cheers

Ivan



Edited by Ivan Jochner (07/10/14 04:16 AM)

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#2300648 - 07/10/14 09:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Ivan Jochner]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Ivan Jochner
Hi Max, that`s very good to know that you are improving your skills and learning.

Well done!


I published videos of Graham Lewis for a short time in order to share with my thoughts about his tuning with Russian technicians forum.
Those videos of Graham were done 2 years ago when i worked with him. That time i asked him a question :

" Could i show his work to my colleagues piano tuners?"

The answer was "Yes".

But now i want to ask his permission to have it on You tube permanently. There is a big difference to show some videos at home and have it on a You tube.

I will contact Graham an ask him nicely again.

Cheers

Ivan


Thousand my apologies, Ivan. I found these records in the Russian forum. I'd thought that they are public. Now after your reply I understand for themselves. Maybe Graham allow to present it's here, we will hope. His technique handle of a hammer (15-18) down is important and useful for many people and professional tuners. If it's be possible to receive for him my heartfelt greetings and words of admiration for his work. Wish him good health. "We have our objective assessment of human actions and we should not watch intensify your attention to their injury ." Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2301381 - 07/12/14 03:35 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
I can only guess, but I think that now: Whole area of NSL at method position handle hammer (9-12) up for upright piano and for a grand piano (15-18) down experiencing less outer power for a string when we are tuning . A pin does not bend. A coils of a string do not spreads in and therefore, conditional of course, the string should be not change its position relative to a plate. Accordingly the motion of the string more tender. Therefore, the string has less friction with the agraff or a bar. Perhaps it saves "not eating" outer metal fiber in during short time their contact between itself


Edited by Maximillyan (07/12/14 03:37 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2301704 - 07/13/14 12:24 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Blind tuner, which using (9-12) for upright

commonlyknownasiam wrote: "Since being taught to play music by a blind man as a child, I've always done what I can to support this community and this particular profession is one they're eminently qualified to do. This man, Mr Chris Coppard, East Sussex, comes to look after my ageing piano every six months and I find the experience to be simultaneously like a retuning of mind, body and spirit. There's something about listening to an instrument like this being bought into harmony with itself. I've always loved his visits and he kindly consented to me filming him so that I could share the experience".
http://youtu.be/duQYtGwQ7xk
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2301780 - 07/13/14 06:53 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
this tuning is may be nicely sounding in the end but not firmly set.
After one year the strings should not be out of tune that much.

Easier for left handed tuners to tune that way

Difficult to install an active pin, as the blocking is "natural", not controlled.





Edited by Olek (07/13/14 06:56 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2302178 - 07/14/14 11:30 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
this tuning is may be nicely sounding in the end but not firmly set.
After one year the strings should not be out of tune that much.

Easier for left handed tuners to tune that way

Difficult to install an active pin, as the blocking is "natural", not controlled.




Isaac agree with you that this is an old English upright piano. According words its owner, Mr. Chris Coppard really visits after six months. Perhaps Chris lefty tuner. Or maybe he's just still believes that such "free natural" method of installation a pin more reliable, we are never know about. Nevertheless, this fact is the place to be and (9-12) are work method. Max is not lefty but I'm work last time now as it. For Max it's nice
Regards,


Edited by Maximillyan (07/14/14 11:32 AM)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2302188 - 07/14/14 11:51 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Only Up only works if there is an appropriate amount of After Tuning which is the amount of unbending and untwisting after tuning and it also depends on how it affects NSL tension. It doesn't always work, then what do you do? You need to understand forces, friction, and elastic deformation to analyze what to do instead of guessing.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2302281 - 07/14/14 03:50 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
if it is only after 6 months , something is clearly wrong. on an old piano, once settled, (may take few tuning) next tuning does not imply as much raising of pitches.

The pin HAVE to fall naturally in its "bed" (with some preparation of the bed while rising ) but it may do so while in a tense posture.
With the lever on the left, until it is hold 11:00 it is very difficult to control that part, the hammer fall on the pin and it is distressed during that motion, which is not the goal for an optimal setting.

SO yes it may hold,(easily) but not for long, as the NSL is in the low tension range. my impression. we need to have the control from the start to the end of the pin and wire motion.

I "ask" the wire to block the pin, but I ask the pin to pull on the wire, not only to be pulled. A neutral pin does not resist well in time.






Edited by Olek (07/14/14 03:51 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2302420 - 07/14/14 11:17 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek
if it is only after 6 months , something is clearly wrong. on an old piano, once settled, (may take few tuning) next tuning does not imply as much raising of pitches.

The pin HAVE to fall naturally in its "bed" (with some preparation of the bed while rising ) but it may do so while in a tense posture.
With the lever on the left, until it is hold 11:00 it is very difficult to control that part, the hammer fall on the pin and it is distressed during that motion, which is not the goal for an optimal setting.

SO yes it may hold,(easily) but not for long, as the NSL is in the low tension range. my impression. we need to have the control from the start to the end of the pin and wire motion.

I "ask" the wire to block the pin, but I ask the pin to pull on the wire, not only to be pulled. A neutral pin does not resist well in time.





That's right, Isaac, I agree. My only a mark about the position of the handle for such technique as close as possible to 12 o'clock. To fix ( It's hard find that right tone) is really very difficult for our ears. This requires a special concentration of hearing and soft moves palms. You correctly pointed out here: on the minimum pressure in the zone "as the NSL is in whole the low tension range". I think a pin goes smoothly with respect to the plate, he does not plunge into " a body of a pinblock". It's only has the possibility of axial movement. And we are wants to control the movement and look all changes of a length of the string always. It certainly disadvantage of the lack of full control over the movement of a pin when we are using (12) up. But this salvation old wood holes, I suppose
Regards,
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2302423 - 07/14/14 11:39 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Only Up only works if there is an appropriate amount of After Tuning which is the amount of unbending and untwisting after tuning and it also depends on how it affects NSL tension. It doesn't always work, then what do you do? You need to understand forces, friction, and elastic deformation to analyze what to do instead of guessing.


It's (9-12) up will be to work always! The laws of physics no one has yet been canceled. Max don't have time for of guessing. He is a practitioner tuner. About a zones of plastic deformation and elastic deformation knows firsthand. What concerns the ergonomics process that Max believes that inconvenience for tuner are not a reason to reject it's technique and start do wrong as to do it many tuners of ALL World!
Sincerely,
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2303210 - 07/17/14 12:20 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1401
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Left hand 9 to 12 on upright.

Induces a positive NSL tension that must be reversed when done tuning.

Untwisting and unbending (putting to bed as Isaac says) can do that, but if the NSL is short, it could be too much and NSL tension goes too much below speaking length tension, and note goes flat.

This is using one pass, slow pull analysis.

Johnkie, in your experience, when using your left hand on an upright, do you generally wiggle around the pin, feeling for best stability, like sharpen then flatten a bit, or just leave it where it is when it's in tune?

Also, on pianos with short NSL (spinets, near the tenor break) do you find 9-12 difficult. If so, how did you deal with it?
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#2303224 - 07/17/14 01:39 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Left hand 9 to 12 on upright.

Induces a positive NSL tension that must be reversed when done tuning.

Untwisting and unbending (putting to bed as Isaac says) can do that, but if the NSL is short, it could be too much and NSL tension goes too much below speaking length tension, and note goes flat.

This is using one pass, slow pull analysis.

Johnkie, in your experience, when using your left hand on an upright, do you generally wiggle around the pin, feeling for best stability, like sharpen then flatten a bit, or just leave it where it is when it's in tune?

Also, on pianos with short NSL (spinets, near the tenor break) do you find 9-12 difficult. If so, how did you deal with it?

Hi,Mark
Forgive me, but I understand English very bad. I'm starting from the beginning, what I understood from your message response.
1 Not necessarily work with his left hand. This technique is not for lefties. You can use the right hand. It is not convenient.
2 Isaac really stopped at principal moment ( as fix a pin "to bed"). I think that in principle there is big difference if NSL short or normal. But the specifics probably still exists. I work with the Soviet piano on which NSL usually standard (lower pin) from a bar near 12cm.
3 I do not know what makes Johnkie. Tell me, please. I usually move the handle so as to minimize movement of a move. I'm moving very slowly and gently each pin. If I'm a little sharp tone, then let go down it's. Wiggle around the pin is acceptable, but better still get directly move to right tone without shakes. It is a very daunting task. I'm "just leave it where it is when it's in tune"
4 I've never seen "live" spinet and I can not answer your question, I'm sorry. But if it is a very short NSL, it may be (9-12) does not work there. But every can still check out it's, I think so. Sorry I do not have such an opportunity. And never be, I'm think
Thank you that my statements examined and you brought their criticisms. I spoke in favor of this method, because this method can be useful for simple laymen who can "change loose chorus."
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2303308 - 07/17/14 09:31 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Mark Cerisano, RPT]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 726
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Mark Cerisano, RPT
Left hand 9 to 12 on upright.

Induces a positive NSL tension that must be reversed when done tuning.

Untwisting and unbending (putting to bed as Isaac says) can do that, but if the NSL is short, it could be too much and NSL tension goes too much below speaking length tension, and note goes flat.

This is using one pass, slow pull analysis.

Johnkie, in your experience, when using your left hand on an upright, do you generally wiggle around the pin, feeling for best stability, like sharpen then flatten a bit, or just leave it where it is when it's in tune?

Also, on pianos with short NSL (spinets, near the tenor break) do you find 9-12 difficult. If so, how did you deal with it?


Hi Mark,

I've been in this game for nearly 50 years and as a consequence most of my regular clients pianos only need touch ups rather than Major pitch raising. Taking it as read that only very slight adjustments are required, I find that a lever position of as close to 12 gets the best results (on both upright and grands). This position allows me to to use extremely fine adjustment by using the weight of my left arm to gently nudge the pin rather so that minute amounts of "foot turning" results, requiring nothing further than gentle massage of the wrestpin to set it.

When doing large pitch changes 12 o'clock doesn't work so well and becomes very fatiguing on the arm, so I find the 10 o'clock position gives me more power to acutually turn the foot of the pin with larger degrees. If possible I still reposition the lever back to 12 for the final setting of the pin though.

The final part of your question "do I turn the pin and leave it" ..... no ! I always do the "wiggle" to ensure that the NSL is slightly positively charged, unless it's a first pitch raise rush through to get the tension on the bridges and soundboard prior to a fine tuning.

I consider getting the foot of the pin in the optimum position first and then,, and only then, use the wiggle ( as opposed to serious flag polling) as a means to check for minimal NSL positivity. 12 o'clock, in my experience, allows whole pin to move without having undue flag polling, and makes it easier to set the pin without having to fight the effects of the natural tendency of pins being flexed when using either the 9 or 3 lever positions.

I hope that makes sense to you mark .... I find it mich easier to do than explain in writing wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2303407 - 07/17/14 03:16 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Great description, Jonkie, thank you for the effort.

(I feel some of your glory is reflected to me !!!)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2303425 - 07/17/14 04:04 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 726
Loc: England
Thank you Issac, I'm glad you managed to understand my technique, it's sometimes difficult to explain a method that has been learnt through years of experience by putting it into the written word.
smile
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#2303438 - 07/17/14 04:35 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Johnkie]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Johnkie,

Thanks for your explanation, very informative.

Question...is it true that there is a slight amount of flagpolling in using a tuning lever regardless whether you want flagpolling or not when turning the lever to move the pin, or a very slight flagpolling just "wiggling" it as you say?

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#2303465 - 07/17/14 05:29 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Johnkie]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Thank you Issac, I'm glad you managed to understand my technique, it's sometimes difficult to explain a method that has been learnt through years of experience by putting it into the written word.
smile


I assure you it is very clearly put. May be it helps because I know what it is about, but others seem to understand as well.

congratulations, and yes it is difficult to keep it simple and descriptive.

Regards
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2303480 - 07/17/14 06:19 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Grandpianoman]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 726
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: Grandpianoman
Johnkie,

Thanks for your explanation, very informative.

Question...is it true that there is a slight amount of flagpolling in using a tuning lever regardless whether you want flagpolling or not when turning the lever to move the pin, or a very slight flagpolling just "wiggling" it as you say?



I believe flag polling will inevitably manifest itself when using a tuning lever simply because there is no support or counterbalance to negate the forces being applied to just one side of the wrestpin. That is why I advocate trying to get the lever as near 12 o'clock as possible. This method greatly reduces the tendency to bend the wrestpin upward (tuning left handed) or downward if tuning with the right hand.

Gentle flag polling is really the same thing as wiggling or massaging the pin for the final part of setting the pin to obtain that critical stability that normally only results when a tiny amount of positive Non Speaking Length tension is present. Too little NSL tension results in an unstable tuning, as does too much, but a tiny amount of positive tension will leave the tuning rock solid.

When this can be mastered, there really is no need for unduly harsh "test blows" ... they only serve to identify either too much or too little NSL tension,and to my mind, should be reserved purely for teaching and exam purposes.
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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