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#1973450 - 10/15/12 05:22 AM only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 )
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1973528 - 10/15/12 10:25 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Cannot follow the audio. Are you suggesting this technique for left-handed tuning or right-handed? In the demo you appear to use both.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#1973867 - 10/15/12 11:56 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Cannot follow the audio. Are you suggesting this technique for left-handed tuning or right-handed? In the demo you appear to use both.

HI, bkw58
The fundamental point is that the crank rod wrench (classic hammer) only moves up from 9:00 to 12 hours! And only up! To keep the wood's part of the bush and a pin holes for long time!
Here Russian variant text of an article:

Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner (from 9 by 12)


Конь так не ходит, товарищ гроссмейстер.
А как, по-вашему, ходит конь?
(Один из диалогов Великого Комбинатора)

А, ключик-то, ты Максим держишь не правильно
Почему не правильно?
(Из разговора настройщика с заказчиком)
[color:#CC0000][/color]
Однажды я пришёл на заказ и, как обычно начал исправлять «разъехавшиеся» ноты в хорах. Надо сказать, что обычная практика моей повседневной рутинной настройки мало отличается в каких-либо особых изысках. Я вынужден не использовать, присланный безвозмездно профессиональный Г-образный ключ, так как в основной своей массе пианино, которые нужно настроить, уже давно исчерпали своей ресурс и весьма трудно работать, скорее малоэффективно, таким ключом. Поэтому приходиться изворачиваться и добиваться определённой устойчивой фиксации колков при помощи Т-бара.
В обычной и повседневной жизни настройщика-ремонтировщика, Т-бар используется, лишь для выкручивания колков при их износе и не способности держать определённое натяжение струн. Однако мне очень часто приходиться использовать этот ключ для темперации звуков. Почему? Да, потому, что если рассмотреть работу настройщика, а точнее то, как он работает Г-образным ключом, то эта всегда стандартная процедура, а именно, приложение силы по часовой стрелке (от 12 час. к 5 час.) правой рукой на ручку ключа. При этом различаются некоторые вариации положения его руки по отношению к рычагу. Правую руку настройщик по локоть кладёт на ручку ключа, кисть сжимающая рычаг находится ближе к основанию. В таком положении он прилагает некоторую силу, чтобы сдвинуть колок по вращательной по часовой стрелке вниз. Иногда он может сместить кисть, даже обхватывать ручку кистью снизу, то есть, как этого требует процесс.
Вариантов приложения силы, надо сказать ни так уж много, но, каждый мастер использует свою, особую, удобную, только ему методику. При этом не всегда мастер, лишь даёт силовую нагрузку на рукоятку ключа по вращательной. Иногда, если колок не хочет «садиться на место» настройщик гнёт колок, расклинивает его в посадочном месте, бьёт ладонью по рукоятке. То есть силовая нагрузка работает по направлению к чугунной раме, либо прямо противоположно от неё.
Но вернёмся к началу моего повествования, дело в том, что я никогда особо не размышлял, почему настройщики именно, так держат ключ. Это казалось для меня аксиомой. Большинство настройщиков «правши», значит с точки зрения эргономики, рукоятка ключа расположена справа. Правой рукой мы прилагаем силу и вращаем на заданный тон наш колок. Но следует заметить очень существенную деталь, что конструкция колкового механизма фортепиано традиционно имеет правостороннее натяжение струны. Этим, кстати, объясняется и то, что и конструкция колка, в процессе эволюции в фортепианостроении, обрела такую же правостороннюю резьбу-насечку.
Поэтому струна (защемлённая балка с вращательным основанием вверху) закреплена на чугунной раме так, что силовая нагрузка от её натяжения действует на колок таким образом, что разупрочняет деревянное посадочное место в пробке снизу. Пробка это деревянная вставка в отверстии в чугунной рамы, в которую закреплён колок. Далее, за чугунной рамой, располагается колковая доска. В отверстии этой колковой доски колок разупрочняет посадочное место, но уже в верхней её части. Из этого следует вывод, что любая струна в фортепиано, изначально своей силой натяжения приносит износ, ещё даже не будучи зафиксированной на нужный тон. Это её естественное положение, давить на колок вниз.
Так к чему же я всё это, подробно описываю? Дело в том, что наблюдавший за мною клиент, очень даже хорошо понимающий устройство фиксации струны (инженер-технолог одного из оборонных заводов г. Уральска) и натолкнул меня на мысль о неправильной работе ключом. Я очень ему за это благодарен! Когда он подробно пояснил, что он имеет ввиду, рукоятка, а я в тот момент работал как раз Г-образным ключом, должна работать иначе, у меня был шок!
Как было уже сказано ранее, обычная практика это положение рукотятки Г-образного ключа справа, сверху вниз. Что же происходит, когда мы так работаем? Колок в состоянии покоя, когда мы ещё не сдвинули его, уже под воздействием силы струны продавил посадочное (деревянное) место, сформировав, таким образом из круга эллипс. Теперь мы даём дополнительную силовую нагрузку рукояткой ключа справа, к уже имеющейся силе давления на колок. То есть без злого умысла настройщика, происходит следующее, колок даже в новом инструменте подвергается не только вращающему моменту, но и изгибается, возникает изгибающий момент. Таким образом, при классическом методе настройки, настройщик значительно сокращает ресурсную базу инструмента. В момент натяжения струн, за счёт увеличения силы трения, которая является следствием появления изгибающего момента, он разупрочняет деревянную часть посадочного места колка (в передней его части внизу, а в задней – вверху) и, как следствие необоснованный износ посадочного места и невозможность обеспечения стабильности строя. Для новых инструментов это, может быть и не совсем актуально и, может быть, незаметно, но, отнюдь, не способствует сохранению его ресурса.
Более того, многие мастера, при настройке изношенного инструмента, вместо проведения мероприятий по обеспечению надёжного сочленения «колок-посадочное место», с целью экономии времени, сил и средств, созданием изгибающего момента пользуются для окончательной фиксации колка, они как бы расклинивают колок в его посадочном месте, что тоже не щадит посадочного места и вносит свою лепту в дополнительный износ. Можно только предполагать, как долго такой инструмент будет держать строй.
Это не значит, что всем настройщикам нужно в одночасье перестать настраивать подобной методикой, однако, если имеется старый инструмент и необходимо его настраивать, нужно поменять привычную процедуру на прямо противоположную. А, именно, рукоятка ключа должна располагаться слева, работать придётся левой рукой. Я теперь всегда буду работать левой. При этом положение рукоятки при вращении, должно быть (от 9час. до 12час.), рукоятка ключа работает снизу вверх, как бы приподнимая колок в процессе натяжения струны. Таким образом, мы практически полностью исключаем изгибающий момент, действующий на колок, колок движется более плавно, усилие, безусловно, меньшее, за счёт сокращения площади соприкосновения колка с его посадочным местом и, соответственно, уменьшения силы сопротивления (трения), что, в свою очередь, располагает к концентрации на звуковые ощущения при выполнении операции вращения. Все неудобства, связанные с данной процедурой настройки будут компенсированы, как мне кажется, более стабильным и долговременным строем фортепиано.
Подобную методику настройки пианино левой рукой можно применить и Т-образному ключу (Т-бару). При этом работать не на две руки, а расположить вороток ключа в запястье правой или левой руки, как будет удобно настройщику. Движение руки с (9 час. до 12 час.). По сути, это уже не движение воротка ключа, а фактически движение за счёт силы пальцев. Безусловно, это неудобно и трудно, но всё же правильно с точки зрения сохранения рабочего ресурса пианино. Придя к пониманию подобной операции, я предположил, что тот, кто впервые установил струны, скорее всего на клавикорд или клавесин, возможно был левша. Потому, что современный Г- образный ключ сделан вопреки всем законам физики, в его основе заложена, лишь эргономика, удобство работы для «нормального» настройщика. Смею предположить, что, если бы была возможность реализовать проект по созданию «правильной установки струн на фортепиано», необходимо бы было установить колки с левосторонней резьбой и установить струны с возможностью крутить их против часовой стрелки. Тогда бы «и волки были бы сыты, и овцы целы», а то сейчас, если применить эту пословицу к процессу настройки, то справедливо только утверждение о сытости волков, овцы, к сожалению, целы далеко не все.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1973872 - 10/16/12 12:18 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
I get a general sense of your points via Google translator. Thank you.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#1974414 - 10/17/12 05:55 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
I get a general sense of your points via Google translator. Thank you.

I tried it's make for bkw58
9-12 down by up
The work of the tuner it's rather how he works , this is always a standard procedure, namely, the application right hand of force in a clockwise direction (from 12:00. To 5:00 down.)
His your right hand on the handle of hammer. A distinction is some variation of the position of its hands in relation to the lever. Right arm to the elbow tuner puts a handle of hammer. A fingers squeezing the lever is closer to the base. In this position, he is making some force to move the pin on rotational clockwise down. Sometimes he can shift the brush even fold the handle brush the bottom, that is, as required by the process.
Variants of the force, we should say no so much, but each uses its, special, comfortable method. It is not always the tuner, only gives the power load on the handle of the key to rotational. Sometimes, if the pin does not want to "sit in the wood place of" oppression tuner need wedging it in the seat, beating his hand on the handle. That is power load be always working towards iron plate, or just the opposite of her.
I never really wondered why it tuners, so keep the classic hammer. It seemed to me an axiom. Most tuners "righty" means in terms of ergonomics, the handle is on the right . Right hand, we use force and rotates on our pin sets the tone. But we should notice a very important detail that the design of the string- pins piano has traditionally right-string tension. This, incidentally, explains the fact that the design of a pin in the process of evolution in , has acquired the same right-handed pin thread.
Therefore string (clamped beam with a rotational basis at the top) to press the iron frame so that the power load on its tension acts on the pin so that the softening wooden and to break in the bush down. In the hole of a pinblock be softening upper. This suggests that any string in a piano, originally a power brings tension wear, even without being fixed to the right tone. It is her natural position, push down on the pin.
What happens when we are working right- handle on the right? A pin in a state of rest, when we have not moved it, is under the power of string pushing through the basic (wooden). Here so the circle to made of the ellipse. When we give more power load handle of a hammer right to the existing force of pressure on our pin. That is without malice tuner, the following happens, even in the new pin of piano is subjected not only torque, but is bent, there is a bending moment. Thus, the classical method of setting the tuner significantly reduces the resource base of the piano. At the time of string tension due to the increase of the friction force, which is a consequence of the appearance of the bending moment. It is kill wooden chopping part of the bush and hole (in the front part of the bush and in the hole - top) and therefore unreasonable wear pinblock and the inability to ensure the stability pitch. For New piano for it, may not be quite true, perhaps, quietly, but it's does not contribute to the conservation of its resources.
Similar technique tuning piano left-hand can be used, and T-wrench (T-bar). In this work not for the two hands, and placed wrench right or left hand, as will be handy tuner. Movement of the hand with (9:00. To 12 h.). In essence, this is not a movement knob key, and the actual movement by the force of fingers. Of course, it is inconvenient and difficult, but still right in terms of maintaining a working resource piano. Having come to an understanding of this operation, I assumed that the one who first established the strings, most likely on the clavichord or harpsichord, may have been left-handed. Because the modern L-shaped hammer is made contrary to the laws of physics only ergonomics, ease of use for "normal" tuner. I would suggest that if it were possible to implement a project to create a "proper installation of the strings on the piano," we must have been set a pin with left-hand thread and set the string with the ability to turn them counterclockwise. "And the wolves would be fed and the sheep are safe," and now, if we apply this saying to the configuration process, then we have only the statement of satiety wolves, sheep, unfortunately, not all have lives".
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1974672 - 10/17/12 04:01 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Your translation was much better than Google's. Thanks again.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#1974941 - 10/18/12 12:01 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: bkw58]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Your translation was much better than Google's. Thanks again.

Hi,bkw58.I am very glad that it's better to understand. Hopefully, if the tuners will realize that some of them will try to work in the technique 9-12. I would be grateful for any valuation it's method. If you would be tried to make (9-12 up) then I would be happy. Sincerely,maxim_tuner from Kazakhstan
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1975685 - 10/19/12 12:19 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Your translation was much better than Google's. Thanks again.

Hi,bkw58.I am very glad that it's better to understand. Hopefully, if the tuners will realize that some of them will try to work in the technique 9-12. I would be grateful for any valuation it's method. If you would be tried to make (9-12 up) then I would be happy. Sincerely,maxim_tuner from Kazakhstan


In my novitiate I worked with a few tuning techniques to try and find what would work best for me. Being left handed, this presented an extra challenge inasmuch as most of the tuning books of the day were written from the right handed perspective.

Along the way I did, indeed, test the 9:00 position for tuning uprights with a Hale extension lever, and also the T-lever on both grands and uprights. With neither of these could I achieve acceptable leverage to tune the instrument properly. With the T-lever setting the pins properly was problematical.


While a T-lever might work okay on an older block wherein pins are not so tight, to produce enough leverage to make it work on a new Baldwin multi-ply block, the handle bar would have to be at least as long as a tire iron and probably just as thick.

Ultimately I settled on, for grands: the Hale extension lever w/10 degree head and 2.5" #2 star tip; and for uprights, the Schaff extension lever w/ 15 degree head and short #2 star tip.

Depending upon the particular upright, I chose between a 10 and 11:00 position for tuning.

Please do not take this as as being critical of your presentation. It may very well work for you and others. But it did not do so for me.



Edited by bkw58 (10/19/12 03:55 PM)
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#1976241 - 10/20/12 12:02 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Dear Bob, I am very pleased with our correspondence with you. I dare to hope that the other members of this information will be useful. The fact that you are not very convenient to work the T-bar and difficult do contact, I also difficult and inconvenient. But it method keep our piano. I also, as you prefer to do in the position 10 to 11 positions.
I see not in your words of criticism, but instead found a brother in Arkansas!
I'm twist left and right hand. The main is that when we twist L-shaped to left up since pin is not bent. A pin need to some effort to lift a little up.
You all the best and success.
C Christian greetings Maxim
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1976285 - 10/20/12 01:47 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I tune left-handed, and was taught to set the lever in the 9-12:00 zone. I do the equivalent on grands (much to Isaac's shock, I think laugh ). I use my Hale extension lever with a 10 degree head and short #2 star tip on virtually everything. I recently bought a 5 degree 4"(IIRC) head to clear struts, and I hated it.

I've never had a problem with stability.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1976525 - 10/20/12 11:54 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: OperaTenor]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
I tune left-handed, and was taught to set the lever in the 9-12:00 zone. I do the equivalent on grands (much to Isaac's shock, I think laugh ). I use my Hale extension lever with a 10 degree head and short #2 star tip on virtually everything. I recently bought a 5 degree 4"(IIRC) head to clear struts, and I hated it.

I've never had a problem with stability.


OperaTenorI am very glad so do it. You are tuning of a piano as me. This is the correct position. No matter that right-hander is not convenient. Important thing that we keep wood of bush and hole of a pinblock
Now I'm always a crank rod move upwards from 9-12. I can hold the hammer right or left hand. Sometimes, in order to catch the right tone need only to put pressure on the crank rod left palm to the iron plate.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1985013 - 11/10/12 11:31 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Piano pin tuning technique when we set the tuning hammer handle to the left and screw clockwise from 9 to 12. This method alows us to leave the wood bush bottom and pin hole upper part safe. While the classical method disintegrates them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ2SxSG90U0
Voice-over translation the English version
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1985665 - 11/12/12 09:37 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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Комментарии по поводу метода применения настроечного ключа, когда рукоятка располагается при настройке пианино слева от 9 часов к 12, движение при этом положении только вверх.

Максим, чувствуется что скоро ваши наработки приведут вас к выводу что нужно купить настоечный ключ и крутить его рукоять не от 10 к 12, а от 11 к 12...

а от 11 к 12 для того, что бы быстрее и эффективнее ставить замок, так как при таком вращении мы почти не давим на колок вверх а просто проворачиваем под давлением струны вниз, затем чуть чуть выше на 1Гц... и мизинчиком вниз, при этом барабаним по клавише как можно чаще с умеренной силой, чтобы не повредить чего.... тогда стабильности будет хоть отбавляй и бережное отношение к колку и канал меньше повреждается... Максим у вас отличная голова, но вы как ребенок не принимаете советов...


PablBabl

Всё верно, только рукоять ключа слева и от9 к 12 вверх, а уж мизинчиком или двумя руками, это кому, как будет удобно.Канал, действительно сохраняется от излишнего воздействия дополнительно приложенной силы. Сохраняя деревянную часть посадочного места колка, мы бережно относимся к настраиваемому нами пианино.А, то, что настройщик испытывает неудобства при настройке не в счёт. Ресурс пианино дороже.

"но вы как ребенок не принимаете советов",Вы не правы,maxim_tuner всегда готов к диалогу

TheMaximillyan в ответ на PablBabl



Д.Максим, спасибо за этот метод, сейчас использую его. Стабильность - высший глаз! Никаких неудобств не испытываю, советую правый локоть ставить на крышку пианино. Тогда и рука меньше устает и контроль лучше.

Максим Шестерняк в ответ на TheMaximillyan (Показать комментарий)


Edited by Maximillyan (11/12/12 12:36 PM)
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#2078718 - 05/07/13 08:49 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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http://youtu.be/RrsF5QEEM6s
Man tuning v.piano(9-12)
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#2078755 - 05/07/13 10:27 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
pianolive Online   content
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The guy is left handed.

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#2078763 - 05/07/13 10:48 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
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The hand is left guyed ! (may be also right brained) and too tall to tune spinets, too


Edited by Olek (05/07/13 10:49 AM)
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#2079059 - 05/07/13 11:43 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Olek
The hand is left guyed ! (may be also right brained) and too tall to tune spinets, too

Is he right-handed? Perhaps this is the case. However, we should work only the like that. I'm right handed, but I will always do so, because I will take care of the piano. This method extends the life a pianblock and a bush
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#2079116 - 05/08/13 04:39 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
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There are many tuners (myself included) that while being naturally right handed, were trained to tune upright pianos using their left hand and grand pianos with their right. It was considered best practice because the force exerted on the wrestpin followed the intended direction of the string's pitch. We also tune seated .... it's far more comfortable and allows greater control of the lever.
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#2079117 - 05/08/13 04:42 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
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Not good for old pianos, in my opinion , pin setting is not very firm you cannot avoid that the pin locks with hammer weight and string force.

So you do not decide when the pin brakes it is done automatically but lightly.

Precision wise , I find it easier to free the pin, and it may be better for the body, but I do not understand how you get the control on the brake.

(that said I could not drive one English car either wink )



Edited by Olek (05/08/13 05:36 AM)
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#2079121 - 05/08/13 04:55 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
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Whatever Oleg ...... you have far too much time on your hands wink
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#2079719 - 05/09/13 08:28 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Johnkie]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johnkie
There are many tuners (myself included) that while being naturally right handed, were trained to tune upright pianos using their left hand and grand pianos with their right. It was considered best practice because the force exerted on the wrestpin followed the intended direction of the string's pitch.


Johnkie,thank you very much for your message. You have confirmed correctness of my assumptions about operation of the lever on the left for a vertical piano (9-12)
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#2079732 - 05/09/13 08:52 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Olek
Not good for old pianos, in my opinion , pin setting is not very firm you cannot avoid that the pin locks with hammer weight and string force.

So you do not decide when the pin brakes it is done automatically but lightly.

Precision wise , I find it easier to free the pin, and it may be better for the body, but I do not understand how you get the control on the brake.

(that said I could not drive one English car either wink )

Isaac,I think your comments about weakening hardness (is not very firm) and the inability to tuning pin his brakes at the right time is incorrect. When we work the lever on the left control of the fixation of the tuner is the same

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#2079787 - 05/09/13 10:40 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Johnkie]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Whatever Oleg ...... you have far too much time on your hands wink



Seriously, Jon, dont you find that the left position is giving less control on deep setting, becuse the tuning pin brakes too easily (too early)

Or you have a way to control the moment ?
I had no much success in that posture, on sloppy old blocks. on others as soon as you leave the pin it "goes to bed" immeiately.



Edited by Olek (05/09/13 10:40 AM)
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#2079813 - 05/09/13 12:06 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Johnkie Offline
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Oleg -
I was trained by some of the most respected craftsmen here in London, have been tuning both private and concert work for 47 years and have never found using my right hand when tuning uprights to be anywhere near as good as using my left. The only time I use my right hand on uprights is when I am chipping up ... either on re-strings or pitch raising with the action removed.

I realise there are many who tune only right handed, whether upright or grand, and do a good job, but feel that your implication of using one's left hand for uprights being a inferior method is a wild assumption based on nothing more than personal taste. There are good reasons why .... and equally good reasons why grands are almost always tuned using the right hand.

With every best wish.
John
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#2079833 - 05/09/13 12:52 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
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Hi thanks for the answer, but I certainly do not doubt of your training and ability.

It is simply my experience that I did not find how to refrain the tuning pin to stop itselt as soon as I left the lever.

Do you use some laterall pressure to allow the pin to grip lower ?

I admit in my mind it have to do with "active settng" if compared with "natural setting" , if you see what I mean.

Anyway no big success there with low torqued pinblocks.

Then the precision is to be trained, of course , and I understan the basic physical reasons to tune left handed the uprights (be it for the piano or for the tuner) .

ALl the best


Edited by Olek (05/09/13 12:53 PM)
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#2079859 - 05/09/13 02:13 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Isaac is talking of the left position which I take to mean 9-11 o'clock, and the way the pin behaves when manipulated that way. John talks only of the use of the left hand and made no reference to the lever position. It reads to me as though this is the cause of some misunderstanding.
Correct me of I'm wrong.
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#2079869 - 05/09/13 02:43 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
Olek Offline
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Loc: France
Yes that is, and for upright pianos only (on grands the left position is good when lowering the pitch)

Yes the way the pin behave I have less control on it with that 9:0 11:00 position, that is why I ask Jon if there is a trick or a method to keep the contact with the bottom of the pin when tuning that way.

On a piano, the pin settle naturally in its "bed" with minimal pression, usually. I find that the just the weight of the handle is enough to push the tuning pin in its natural posture, if the lever is on the left side.

When we get very soft tuning pins to hold firm enough it is because we can get a control on the very bottom of them
Even if the total twist angle that can be added to a pin is about 1 or 2°, that make a difference if it is installed by the lever or if the wire force is the only source of torquing the pin.

I could not obtain that kind of control with the left posture, to my disappointment, as I appreciate all the rest, the unlocking of the pin which is easy, less stress on the back, etc...

May be I did not work that enough...
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#2079952 - 05/09/13 05:47 PM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
daniokeeper Offline
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Very interesting video smile

i was also taught to tune exclusively left-handed. We were also taught that the closer one can get to 11 or 12, the better. There would be less risk of bending the pin, or if the pin did bend slightly, the less it would matter because the bend would be from left to right, not up. So if the pin did bend and return to its original shape later, if it less likely to alter the tuning. .

I usually try to position the tuning lever at 11. But I will go closer to 9 if the block is extremely tight and I need the leverage.

One method I was shown and I still use for about 75% of verticals, is to rest my hand on top of the piano and then have the lever go across the back/side of my hand, wrapping the thumb around the other side of the lever. The thumb is used for downward pressure and for control. So, the tuning lever is a lever, and my hand/arm is another lever acting on the tuning lever.

I will also grip as close to the tip as leverage will permit me.

This method requires great hand strength.

A warning though... This method is very hard on the hand. Depending on your hand structure and other genetic factors, you could be shortening your tuning career.

I use it because it gives me excellent results as to tuning stability. But, I do pay a price for using it.
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#2080153 - 05/10/13 04:03 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: daniokeeper]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: daniokeeper
Very interesting video smile

i was also taught to tune exclusively left-handed. We were also taught that the closer one can get to 11 or 12, the better. There would be less risk of bending the pin, or if the pin did bend slightly, the less it would matter because the bend would be from left to right, not up. So if the pin did bend and return to its original shape later, if it less likely to alter the tuning. .

I usually try to position the tuning lever at 11. But I will go closer to 9 if the block is extremely tight and I need the leverage.

One method I was shown and I still use for about 75% of verticals, is to rest my hand on top of the piano and then have the lever go across the back/side of my hand, wrapping the thumb around the other side of the lever. The thumb is used for downward pressure and for control. So, the tuning lever is a lever, and my hand/arm is another lever acting on the tuning lever.

I will also grip as close to the tip as leverage will permit me.

This method requires great hand strength.

A warning though... This method is very hard on the hand. Depending on your hand structure and other genetic factors, you could be shortening your tuning career.

I use it because it gives me excellent results as to tuning stability. But, I do pay a price for using it.


thanks for the witnessing. Then how do you expect the pin to bend, in the end ? what direction, none ?

the left position, seem more designed to avoid pushing on the bed of the pin when raising the pitch of the note.

pin twist always in the same direction - to bend them, one need to be particularly brutal whatever method used

When the lever is about 11:00 12:00 the position is
advantageous whatever side you are sitting.

I would say that the pin is better set with that orientation, but generally we do not like to change the lever posture while tuning, if possible.

What I said above apply to a lever in 9:00 11:00 where the weight of the tool is acting on the tuning pin more.






Edited by Olek (05/10/13 04:43 AM)
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#2080223 - 05/10/13 08:54 AM Re: only up! Tuning hammer technique maxim_tuner ( from9 by 12 ) [Re: Maximillyan]
David Jenson Offline
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To each his own. I use my right hand, but I haven't yet learned to use my left foot. smirk
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