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#1974744 - 10/17/12 05:45 PM How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better?
Steve Cohen Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10338
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
I think that is the more important topic.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1974746 - 10/17/12 05:47 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
Stop bickering and name calling. smile
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Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

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#1974750 - 10/17/12 05:51 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: BeccaBb]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: BeccaBb
Stop bickering and name calling. smile


Exactly: address the issue not the poster. As Ken Knapp astutely observes and has stated previously problems always begin when members address what others are doing rather than what they are posting for content.

Just because some other member does not agree with your posting does not mean they are a “something”

Long time member BDB;

Using labels exhibits laxity of thought. It is an ad hominem argument, no better than name-calling, and lacks substance.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1974796 - 10/17/12 06:42 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
thetandyman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 433
Loc: Indiana
How to make PW advice better, well, don't listen to no-nothings like me! LOL
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Marriage is like a card game, you start with two hearts and a diamond, later you wish you had a club and a spade!
Yamaha G7 Yamaha CVP75 digital, Allen 3500 theater organ

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#1975283 - 10/18/12 04:18 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
John Pels Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 1253
Loc: Tomball, Texas
The quality of advice given is directly related to any poster's level of expertise. Posters tend to come and go. They get the information that they think that they need and move on. Genuine information runs the gamut. Some technical info given as gospel, has been gleaned from a very narrow frame of reference, some over a very long period of time. A snapshot of opinions today will vary from a similar query a few years ago or a few years forward and some info is just better than other info. I think it would benefit those making queries if those replying would also include their backround, especially if they are not a business per se. In this way, an opinion could be weighted according to the level of experience. As an example, some have proffered that asian pianos over 25 years of age are due for a rebuild, the tuning pins aren't tight and the bass strings are dead. My daughter as an example tried to sell her Kawai upright circa. 1970. When folks called her about it and found that it was made in 1970, they wouldn't even come out and try it because they said that on Piano World they heard that essentially the life of the piano was over.Years later she still has it, it's still in tune, the bass strings aren't dead and she hasn't been able to sell it...because of a pile of balderdash heard on this website. Never mind that Dad's hobby is pianos and it has a new set of hammers and it is in excellent regulation.

Just my two cents!

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#1975289 - 10/18/12 04:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
rada Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/07/06
Posts: 1124
Loc: pagosa springs,co
I don't believe you should share your wisdom/advice unless some one is asking for it. I figure I always have something to learn so I will accept and reject advice as needed.

rada

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#1975362 - 10/18/12 07:01 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Amaruk Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/02/11
Posts: 795
Loc: New England, USA
I think it is great as it is now... This forum rocks! smile
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My latest piano cover on YouTube: Yann Tiersen - Mother's Journey

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#1975578 - 10/19/12 08:38 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 388
Loc: Australia
The presence of industry spies is a limiting factor - particularly when they can not agree with a realistic comment about their product.

As a result of bullying by one global company representative, there is one product which I won't make comment on now, despite the poor presentation and preparation of the samples provided. That then skews opinion in favour of that company.
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1975593 - 10/19/12 09:28 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: backto_study_piano]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
The presence of industry spies is a limiting factor - particularly when they can not (handle a) comment about their product.

As a result of bullying by one global company representative, there is one product which I won't make comment on now, despite the poor presentation and preparation of the samples provided.


Agreed. I walked away from Kawai due to one representative here just as I was about to slap down $35K+ on one of their grands. Went with a famous German maker instead and am happier on all fronts.

If the representatives would stop pushing propaganda and vitriol, it would help.
I like that the techs voice their experiences, opinions, and recommendations, but when the sniping begins, it is tedious. The threads bog down in lengthy off-topic blather.
Stop attacking opinion as if it is fact. Just frame it properly as opinion.

MORE SOUNDS. This is a PIANO forum and almost no one posts sounds. "I've got an amazing sounding grand... here's a picture." Huh? "These Abel hammers sound incredible. (end of post)" Wha? I don't care if you mangle Chopsticks trying to show off the sound, and scr@w the critics, I'd like to hear the range of pianos and hammers and wires and everything. I suspect most would love this.

I wish there was more info about restoration and parts. More photos. It's hard to get a lot of detail about actions and hammers and so forth.
_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing...
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"He's A Pirate"
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#1975632 - 10/19/12 10:38 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
The problem with posting recordings with the intent of using them to evaluate sound is that quality of the recordings and the quality of the speakers being used by the listener both have an effect on what one hears. I think the quality of the recording has the much bigger effect.

I also think the quality of the performer affects the sound somewhat, at least to the extent it can be hard to separate the sound from the skill of the performer.

If I'm not mistaken Larry Fine is in the process of getting recordings of different pianos posted but I don't know exactly where.

As far as the quality of advice goes, I think it is really impossible to improve on that on an internet forum. I wonder if there internet forums dealing with things other than pianos that have some way that they try to do this? The person reading the thread has to try as best as they can to decide on how knowledgeable and trustworthy the poster is and whether the poster has any agenda that would affect their advice. I have yet to read a single dealer post that says even the tiniest negative thing about a piano they sell. And most piano owners rave about their own pianos.

It would be fun if, just for a few days, all posters had to take a truth serum and say exactly what they were really thinking.



Edited by pianoloverus (10/19/12 10:42 AM)

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#1975652 - 10/19/12 11:24 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8068
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Pianoloverus
As far as the quality of advice goes, I think it is really impossible to improve on that on an internet forum. I wonder if there internet forums dealing with things other than pianos that have some way that they try to do this? The person reading the thread has to try as best as they can to decide on how knowledgeable and trustworthy the poster is and whether the poster has any agenda that would affect their advice. I have yet to read a single dealer post that says even the tiniest negative thing about a piano they sell. And most piano owners rave about their own pianos.

Pianoloverus, I agree you here… what you said makes a lot of sense to me.

On the other hand, Steve has a good point… I personally think anything that we have some control over, to any extent, can be improved in some way. I’m an advocate of Dr. Edward Deming’s philosophy of continuous improvement.

Also, keep in mind that the advice given here is free… and, at times, is worth about what it costs. Our system of checks and balances here are the many pros and experts that can counter any outright bad advice. (And some have countered my bad advice.) smile

With that said, I think any improvements in the advice given here on the Piano World forums would have to start with improvements from our members. As we experience our own self-improvement and grow, and mature, and get better at what we do, the improvements in the advice we give here will get better.

I, for one, know that I have only scratched the surface when it comes to knowledge about pianos and all things related. I think as I learn more I’ll be able to give better advice to others. And, even if my advice is not all that good, I can be a good motivator and encourager! Surely that counts for something. smile

Rick

_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1975678 - 10/19/12 12:10 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: pianoloverus]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The problem with posting recordings with the intent of using them to evaluate sound is that quality of the recordings and the quality of the speakers being used by the listener both have an effect on what one hears. I think the quality of the recording has the much bigger effect.


The quality and settings of the sound card in the computer used to hear the recording also has a direct effect on what one hears.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

It would be fun if, just for a few days, all posters had to take a truth serum and say exactly what they were really thinking.



I must have taken a dose some years ago.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1975683 - 10/19/12 12:18 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome

I wish there was more info about restoration and parts. More photos. It's hard to get a lot of detail about actions and hammers and so forth.



Plenty of materials on my web site photo gallery along with 50 postings to my blog about a variety of the topics mentioned.

Whoops not that I am promoting myself at all Rickster; just finding solutions for one member’s dilemma.

Isaac Oleg in Vitry, France ( Kamin on the list) has a lot of photos albums available for viewing also.

There are other members of the tech forum who provide photo sets and blogs of this type of content.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1975717 - 10/19/12 01:09 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1115
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
I believe that this forum exists to inform people about pianos, to promote the piano as a musical instrument and to encourage all piano players at every level of accomplishment.

Personally, my limited understanding and knowledge of pianos has been helped tremendously by my modest involvement in Pianoworld.

I find that the most credible, impartial responses about technical issues and problems with pianos come from the people who really know what they are talking about, the professional tuners and technicians.

Of course, we all have opinions about pianos, but we need to differentiate between what is fact and what is opinion. Again, the technical people on the forum seem to be better at this.

Negativity, especially in personal attacks and comments are a turn-off and moderators need to be vigilant.

It is a great forum and offers a wealth of information and lively discourse about pianos.

Robert.

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#1975735 - 10/19/12 01:54 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8068
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Whoops not that I am promoting myself at all Rickster; just finding solutions for one member’s dilemma.

Don't know that I've ever thought you were promoting youself here, Dan. I've always thought you were here to help in anyway you can. smile

It is folks like you, Robert 45, Del Fandrich, Supply (Jurgen Goering), Jerry Groot, Steven Cohen, Rich Galassini, and so many others that I have not named (but they know who they are), that make this forum such a wonderful place to learn about pianos (and lots of other things smile ).

By the way, what happened to PianoBroker (Tony Hamm?); We haven't heard from him in a long time.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1975773 - 10/19/12 02:52 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10338
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1975797 - 10/19/12 03:36 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6031
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".


And we should also add the category - "unbiased advisor" grin
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YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#1975904 - 10/19/12 07:32 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
ventil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 145
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".


How would that work?
_________________________
David M. Boothe, CAS

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#1975907 - 10/19/12 07:44 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: ventil]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6031
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: ventil
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".


How would that work?


About the same way as "unbiased advisor" ha
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#1975937 - 10/19/12 08:28 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Awwwww shucks, thanks Rick! That was mighty nice of you to say!

All in all, honesty is always a good policy no matter what, where, or when... I can't even begin to count the amount of dishonest people that I know, have met, continue to meet and seem to encounter pretty much everywhere I go! It seems that dishonesty, tends to be more prevalent than honesty in many instances. It's a "me me me" world and the other person doesn't count world. It is the way many people in today's society was raised. If, that way of thinking was reversed and people looked out for others, put others first and themselves second, did more for others, even volunteered somewhere, well, one person can make a difference. I know... That would make a big difference and would make everything, everywhere, including PW a better place.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1975939 - 10/19/12 08:30 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
One idea would be to some how allow newbies to know which posters have broad and deep experience in the industry. Maybe a designation of "certified advisor".



Your thread title reads: How can we make the advice on Piano World better? The "we" would seem to imply a collective effort to focus more closely on the advice asked for and not go beyond that by getting into subjective preferences and biases.

Your suggestion does not make the advice given here "better". It simply makes some of the advice given here appear to be 'better' than the rest.

Those who feel their advice should be given primacy over others' due to their credentials can get into those credentials in their tags by stating present and past affiliations, as well as years of experience in the piano biz. Introducing an arbitrary standard of certification just opens another can of worms.

Do those with many brand affiliations over the years post objectively to their total experience or feel a prevailing loyalty to their current suppliers (the hand that feeds)? In your case, I would bet on objectivity overruling current affiliations, but I would not bet on that in general, and I would only bet on that in your case due to reading many of your posts oover the last few years, not due to your many years of experience in the biz and your many affiliations. In other words, the actual post validates the résumé, not the other way around.

_________________________
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#1975969 - 10/19/12 09:26 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
People forget that pianos and music making in general are a subject that never will or *can* be agreed upon.

Sound including the 'perception of sound', have never been a matter of 'agreement' but personal 'feel'

'Feel' again, is based on many other personal aspects including what one is personally familiar with or sometimes "not".

A Saab may be a better car than a Honda, but when not familiar with them both, the discussion becomes quickly meaningless.

By same token without having the chance to personally experience different pianos either as player or discerning listener, the whole subject remains ...er..talk.

Claiming to be an expert when not familiar with many of the various makes/models being discussed here or not being a player oneself, doesn't exactly do the trick either.

Agreeing can be beautiful - disagreeing sometimes better.

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (10/20/12 12:50 PM)
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#1976309 - 10/20/12 02:27 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
If I missed someone already saying this, I apologize.

Opinions should be expresses as such, not as fact. Far to many opinions are expressed as facts. No amount of existential cleverness or wordy math topics changes the simple fact that, unless you have personally done the significant testing and/or research, it is in fact, just an opinion.

If you are repeating something you read or heard, then present the proper citations, remove yourself as the "expert" and defer to the source you speak from.

We have people here expressing their "facts"on such things as sound boards who have never installed one.

Others present hearsay on manufacturers they heard from an "industry" friend, as fact, rather than the hearsay it is.

Separate fact from opinion and identify sources.
_________________________
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#1976731 - 10/21/12 01:05 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
gutenberg Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 376
Loc: Wichita, Kansas
One thing we can all strive to do better is try and stay on topic. I've sometimes wondered what thread would get the award for longest "on -topic" responses.

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#1976766 - 10/21/12 03:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rickster]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Rickster

On the other hand, Steve has a good point…


Piano. Sound. It is just that simple.

Making an argument about the quality of recording ignores that most listeners here can cut through and excuse recording quality and attempt to understand what is heard due to how it sounds through misplaced mics and lacking speakers.

Insecurity on the part of the critic above would have a logical conclusion that there shouldn't ever be musical recordings because they don't match the experience in the moment of performance. All recordings are inherently inferior, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to display what is being described.

Imagine being on an illustration forum where they only write about how awesome the pictures are.
_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"Claire DeLune (finally)"

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#1976772 - 10/21/12 03:25 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome


Piano. Sound. It is just that simple.

Making an argument about the quality of recording ignores that most listeners here can cut through and excuse recording quality and attempt to understand what is heard due to how it sounds through misplaced mics and lacking speakers.
I doubt even a recording engineer could do that. I'm sure most average PW reader can't.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/21/12 03:25 PM)

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#1976791 - 10/21/12 04:45 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5260
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better?

How 'bout requiring posters to use their own name and a real e-mail address?
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#1976879 - 10/21/12 08:54 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Dave Horne]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 291
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
[i]
How 'bout requiring posters to use their own name and a real e-mail address?


That would be a social network -- a fundamentally different beast from a forum like this. On the other hand, the identities of quite a few of the experts here are no secret.

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#1976980 - 10/22/12 04:41 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5260
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I've found when there's accountability there's less nonsense.
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website

mp3\wav files

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#1977044 - 10/22/12 11:00 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3404
Loc: US
Eliminate the "infomercials" and free advertising

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#1977045 - 10/22/12 11:08 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
Limit infomercials(anything that says something positive about the pianos they sell/their dealership etc. as opposed to just giving factual information)to a certain number each year. Once that number has been reached a dealer cannot say anything about the makes they sell or their great prep or anything else in that category. Ten or fifty would be an appropriate number IMO. But some dealers have more like 1000 infomercials for each year they've posted. Unfortunately, achieving something like this would require a huge amount of moderator time.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 11:17 AM)

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#1977049 - 10/22/12 11:16 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Unworkable. Who is to decide what an infomercial is and what is not. One person's infomercial could be another’s valuable information or guidance.
_________________________
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www.silverwoodpianos.com
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#1977050 - 10/22/12 11:20 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Unworkable. Who is to decide what an infomercial is and what is not. One person's infomercial could be another’s valuable information or guidance.
An infomercial is anything that's not purely factual, e.g. "this model is assembled in Japan", or is designed to advertize the pianos a dealers sells or their dealership in general. Does the dealer regularly answer questions that are in no way related to their specific pianos and services or do the huge majority of their posts talk about things that are clearly in their own best interests?


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 11:27 AM)

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#1977053 - 10/22/12 11:22 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

No one asked for a description. The question is
who determines what is an infomercial and what is not?
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1977059 - 10/22/12 11:31 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Guapo Gabacho Offline
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Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 429
Loc: Rio Grande Valley of Texas
Who knows most about a certain piano, an owner or a dealer?
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#1977069 - 10/22/12 12:00 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: rlinkt]
Supply Offline
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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: rlinkt
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
How 'bout requiring posters to use their own name and a real e-mail address?
... the identities of quite a few of the experts here are no secret.
Yes, true. The problem is that often, anonymity is a convenient shield to hide behind for those folks who seem to make a bit of a sport of sniping at industry affiliates (who display their identity). I sometimes wonder if they would be posting in the same way if their identity was revealed.... I kinda doubt it.
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Piano Forte Supply
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#1977104 - 10/22/12 12:59 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Offline
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Dealers are not just just dealers.

There's different commitments involved, in fact VERY different as I have learned in almost 30 years myself.

The agendas are very different so are the goals and ambitions of many owners. Same with 'salesmen' - many are very honororable believing in their products, others jump from store to store to sell "whatever" comes along.

The relationship to one's product is IMHO very important considering that some owners are active musicians or at least appreciating music lovers, others couldn't care less looking only at bottom line.

In judging to what someone has to say the products he happens to carry himself, one needs to understand perhaps a bit better where that person is actually coming from.

Interestingly enough,dealers who are actively involved in music themselves have always had much higher respect and understanding for each other other - even when competing head on.

Only when there is absolutely no interest in what one is selling [many..] and being only in business to maximize profit at all cost, gets things skewed.

Trusting that intelligent readers will notice or at least "sense" the difference.

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (10/22/12 01:44 PM)
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#1977108 - 10/22/12 01:12 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Steve Chandler Offline
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Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2625
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Here's the problem as I see it. People come here not when they're beginning to shop for a piano but rather when they've gone out there and come to several realizations, pianos are much more expensive than they thought and the information given by dealers usually is contradictory. So they use the internet to find resources for information and they end up here. If they're smart they'll try to read 2 years worth of posts in a week, but who has time for that. This is the situation that the initial post in another thread alluded to. If someone has the time they can read a few years worth of posts and come to some conclusions about who knows what and who's a blowhard (but still potentially knowledgeable) and who offers opinion masquerading as fact and who is just an irascible curmudgeon.

Regarding opinion masquerading as fact, you'd think differentiating one from the other would be easy. Facts usually regard features, the Kawai RX series has the Millennium III action which uses carbon composite materials. That's a fact, but then equating that to mean more responsive and expressive is an opinion. It may be an educated opinion, but it's still an opinion. Comparative judgments, such as Estonia is a better value than Steinway is certainly an opinion, but is subject to the relative abilities of the person making the judgment and the particular pianos in question. It feels good to say it if that's what you truly believe, but is it really helpful to anyone else.

Is there a way to improve this situation? The only thing I can think of would be a disclaimer that states that the opinions offered are those of their author and not the site. Individuals inquiring here for information will receive many opinions, some masquerading as fact. There will often be conflicting opinions. Individuals should carefully evaluate all information on this site before using it to make a purchase decision. This site is not responsible for buyer's remorse, but for piano aficionados can be very entertaining to read. Regular readers will over time become more knowledgeable and will be in a better position to shop for a piano. Expect this educational process to take at least 6 months. Enjoy your reading and we welcome you to this wild and crazy community.


Edited by Steve Chandler (10/22/12 01:15 PM)

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#1977119 - 10/22/12 01:36 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
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Steve:

I agree with much of what you have said but discussing musical intruments such as pianos only based on "facts" about their hardware data, leaves out the IMHO the most important equation: its 'sound'

It's like discussing a city's restaurants by recepies used - not how their food actually tastes.

Sound, as we all know, is highly subjective/personal and cannot always be explained in terms of what goes into a piano.

The problem is that we all can agree or disagree on sound, but many here partaking in the various discussions have no first hand experience regarding the makes and models under discussion.

To at least offer an educated guess, let alone 'opinion'

Instead they condemn anything going beyong molucelar data and "facts" as if this in itself amounts to an understanding of things.

It reminds me on famous German author Karl May who wrote hundres of volumes about America.

Except he had never even set foot on the continent - nor was he a travelor during his lifetime...

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (10/22/12 01:59 PM)
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#1977128 - 10/22/12 02:00 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Online   content
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I cannot recall even one post at PW where any poster discussed their personal opinion about the sound of a piano but the poster had no experience with the piano. In fact, to give one's opinion without having heard the piano is logically impossible unless one thinks the writer is just making things up.

Of course, giving one's opinion about a piano's tone utterly different from saying that a dealer is giving an infomercial. One only has to read a dealer's post to be able to have an opinion about that. The specific piano mentioned or it's tone is completely irrelevant to that topic.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 02:10 PM)

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#1977129 - 10/22/12 02:03 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

That is because most talk about tone not sound. It is the tone of an instrument that attracts or repels.

The general term "sound" is found everywhere you go...when sound is not mathematically structured we commonly call it noise.
_________________________
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1977142 - 10/22/12 02:50 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Norbert]
Steve Chandler Offline
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Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2625
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Norbert

I agree with much of what you have said but discussing musical intruments such as pianos only based on "facts" about their hardware data, leaves out the IMHO the most important equation: its 'sound'

It's like discussing a city's restaurants by recepies used - not how their food actually tastes.

Norbert, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was simply describing the situation. There is no easy solution other than to warn people, that's why I suggested a disclaimer. If people know going in that this site serves as much as entertainment as education then the information gleaned from here may be viewed differently (i.e. not as gospel). Frankly, I don't believe we can make the advice given here better, maybe we can make the consumer better.

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#1977148 - 10/22/12 03:14 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Entheo Offline
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Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
I think that is the more important topic.


i'm going to assume that steve's question goes to all of the forums (pianist corner, etc.) not just pianos.

i would like to see more metadata fields associated with the user profile that vet some credentials, e.g.:

* pro or amateur musician? please describe:
* work in the industry? please describe:
* professional groups or affiliations? please describe:
* training/degrees/teachers? please describe:
* URLs to your sites (e.g. youtube, fandalism, home page or your store/business):

this metadata would go a long way in helping to qualify the weight we place on the opinions stated here, IMHO.
_________________________
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#1977156 - 10/22/12 03:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: pianoloverus]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
.. In fact, to give one's opinion without having heard the piano is logically impossible unless one thinks the writer is just making things up....
I understand this to be in the context of discussing piano tone. However, in a broader sense, yes, there is a great deal written on PW which is either conjured up as in "I would think that...", or hearsay as in "I read it on the internet". The problem is that this is often presented in statement form and rarely as a question or discussion point.

Some posters have very little personal experience on which to base their many opinions and points of advice. This is especially common on the technicians forum. Thankfully, most of these armchair experts don't last too long and after a few months they go elsewhere, presumably to share their wisdom on a bee keeping or hot rod forum...
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1977188 - 10/22/12 04:45 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Supply
I understand this to be in the context of discussing piano tone. However, in a broader sense, yes, there is a great deal written on PW which is either conjured up as in "I would think that...", or hearsay as in "I read it on the internet". The problem is that this is often presented in statement form and rarely as a question or discussion point.
If the poster includes the phrase "I would think that" or "I read it on the internet" than in most cases I'd say it's reasonably clear that it's only his own opinion or another person's opinion.

When ideas have nothing to indicate they're opinion I think it's a bigger problem either in terms of misinformation possibly harming others or just producing an arrogant sounding post. If I write "I would think that" but am really inquiring I usually add a question mark at the end of the sentence.

In general, I think it's impossible to find a way to for a reader to be sure about a poster's information/opinion. I was recently trying to find a nice restaurant in my area and every time I looked at the online reviews, even the high rated restuarants had their share of terrible reviews.

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#1977205 - 10/22/12 05:32 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Supply Offline
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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I entirely agree, in fact this is what I was expressing. Sorry to be misunderstood. I thought my post was clear on that. In fact, after re-reading it, I don't even think it needs to be edited.
Quote:
The problem is that this [opinion or hearsay] is often presented in statement form and rarely as a question or discussion point.
_________________________
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Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1977233 - 10/22/12 06:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Rick metnioned in a post here that he is a believer in the idea that anything, regardless of its level of effectiveness, can be improved. I share the belief.

The problem is that the concrete suggestions mentioned here do not have to do with improvement through a collective effort to improve (which can be assumed from the "we" in the question), but have to do rather with miimizing the influence of those who are seen as less desirable by those posing the suggestions.

One suggestion is to certify certain users in a way that will give more weight to what they write. Another is to exclude from participation those who do not wish to share their identity or personal email address. A third is to limit professional retailers to a fixed number of posts in which they openly advocate the brands they sell. All these suggestions are based on identifying and minimizing people who are seen by those proposing the suggesionss to be less desirable than themselves. All of these suggestions exempt the member making them from any responsibility to share the burden of realizing improvement. Interestingly enough, all of them are contrary to the structure and rules of this forum as it is presently constituted. Is this really the way to collectively improve the advice given here or is it the way to assure reading only what one wants to read?

In addition, none of these suggestions take into account the affective filter that any reader has, whether that filter is hyperactive, reasonably efficient, or more of a sieve than a screen. This is especially important since most readers who pose questions already have in their filter some sort of predisposition to the question they ask and may very well be looking for affirmation of that predisposition rather than objectivity that could get in its way. In that sense, advice that features a gratuitous and completely undeserved cheap shot against a piano brand may be music to the questioner's ears, and a balanced and reasonable response may be unappreciated. It can't be helped. It's just another part of human nature, and the people asking for advice are as human as those giving it.

I have my own personal goals for improvement. I won't share them, but I believe this is where it starts and where it should end, unless the member has been charged by the management with the task of restructuring this forum.
_________________________
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#1977253 - 10/22/12 07:25 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
If we should be so fortunate as to institute a decorum that brings harmony to all the discussions ... our next stop should be the UN in New York.

Decorum is a personal choice and responsibility and there will never be complete agreement.

Seems to me, this forum has a way of balancing the issues.
_________________________
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#1977289 - 10/22/12 09:30 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Rank Piano Amateur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1734
It seems to me that there are two basic kinds of posters on this site: people who are involved with the piano industry and people who are not.

The people who are involved with the piano industry are mostly fully identified by name, source of their involvement, and brands of pianos they sell. Anyone who reads their advice should take all of this into account when deciding on the value of that advice. Anyone who wants to learn more about the poster's reliability can search for that poster on this site and evaluate the quality of his or her posts in the past, how other posters react to them, etc.

If the poster is involved with the piano industry and conceals that fact by posting anonymously, in violation of already existing rules, additional rules are unlikely to cause him or her to come out into the open.

The people who are not involved with the piano industry are mostly piano owners, who range from amateur incompetents (like me, I just happen to have a really good piano) to those who are close to or even at professional level. The non-industry people's advice can be readily evaluated by a visitor to the Forum in the same way that a dealer's advice can be evaluated: by looking at other posts and how fellow Forumites respond to them.

The real bottom line: this is the Internet, and the information you get can be accurate, can be reliable, and can be helpful. On the other hand, it can also be inaccurate, unreliable, and useless. Or somewhere between the two. But it is the internet. You should always assume that advice is worth what you are paying for it--although paying for it is not a reliable gauge of reliability, either!

I have to add here that if this Forum becomes too serious, and starts taking itself too seriously, it will also become boring.

At least that is what I think. And I am not even being paid two cents.

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#1977306 - 10/22/12 10:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
It seems to me that there are two basic kinds of posters on this site: people who are involved with the piano industry and people who are not.

The people who are involved with the piano industry are mostly fully identified by name, source of their involvement, and brands of pianos they sell. Anyone who reads their advice should take all of this into account when deciding on the value of that advice. Anyone who wants to learn more about the poster's reliability can search for that poster on this site and evaluate the quality of his or her posts in the past, how other posters react to them, etc.

If the poster is involved with the piano industry and conceals that fact by posting anonymously, in violation of already existing rules, additional rules are unlikely to cause him or her to come out into the open.

The people who are not involved with the piano industry are mostly piano owners, who range from amateur incompetents (like me, I just happen to have a really good piano) to those who are close to or even at professional level. The non-industry people's advice can be readily evaluated by a visitor to the Forum in the same way that a dealer's advice can be evaluated: by looking at other posts and how fellow Forumites respond to them.

The real bottom line: this is the Internet, and the information you get can be accurate, can be reliable, and can be helpful. On the other hand, it can also be inaccurate, unreliable, and useless. Or somewhere between the two. But it is the internet. You should always assume that advice is worth what you are paying for it--although paying for it is not a reliable gauge of reliability, either!

I have to add here that if this Forum becomes too serious, and starts taking itself too seriously, it will also become boring.

At least that is what I think. And I am not even being paid two cents.
I agree with basically everything in this post.

I think the only problem is that if people are looking for important information they may not be willing to do much research on a poster's knowledge and objectivity. I think the idea behind the thread was to try and find something that would not require so much research. I don't really think there's a good solution.

I think the best solution for people who need sound and objective piano advice is to locate one tech or other industry professional who they can trust to be objective and knowledgeable. Some may be able to do this by reading the advice of some regular posters at PW and choosing one of those people while others will find such a person by using the recommendation of a person they trust. I was fortunate to find just such a person in a NYC tech who is virtually universally praised for both his knowledge and objectivity/fairness.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 10:31 PM)

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#1977321 - 10/22/12 11:13 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8068
Loc: Georgia, USA
I must say that some very good conversation and commentary has been generated here in this thread. As has been mentioned, things can always be improved in some form or fashion, though I don’t think a consensus has been reached as to how that can be accomplished on Piano World.

Piano World is very diverse… not only are there members here who make their living in the piano industry, but there are professional artist, musicians, teachers, technicians, amateurs, novices and average, ordinary individuals alike. There are members from different countries from all over the world; people of different cultures, political ideologies, religions, or no religions at all. There are individuals from all walks of life.

Yet, as diverse as it is, we all have something in common… a love for music, a love of pianos, and a desire to share what we know (whether a little or a lot) with others and to learn more about music and pianos.

I agree with what someone else said about things here on the forum having a way of balancing themselves out in some form or fashion. I honestly do not think that out-right bad advice is often given, though it may well be given at times. I’ve been accused of giving bad advice here… I was not aware that I gave bad advice or exactly what the bad advice was, but if it was really all that bad, I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me (and most here are) would counter my bad advice with correction or at least better or counter advice. Hey, that’s how an Internet forum works, is it not?

Maybe the quality of advice given here would improve if I stopped offering advice... of course, it is worth about what it cost smile

Rick
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#1977479 - 10/23/12 08:36 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 388
Loc: Australia
Consensus - is that what we REALLY want? I don't think so.

My ideal piano could be very different from that of a teacher, and from a concert venue.

What will fit in my home (I could "fit" a 10'2" Fazioli except for the $$) won't fit into a small apartment.

The sound/tone I prefer depends on my past experiences and type of music I play - and even the volume at which I play.

The touch I prefer probably harks back to a piano I've played in the past which I really connected with.

The pianos I choose from include only those I have available to test play - which is different from what other people have available.

If, in testing that cohort of pianos, I don't like a particular piano or brand, I feel that I am in a place where I can state that I didn't like it (unless prevented by a manufacturer who will remain nameless) and the reasons for my dislike. I should also be able to express my preferences among a cohort of pianos - and reasons for them.

I guess in some ways that is my opinion, based on playing experiences - and the basis I use myself for my purchase. I don't expect the next person to feel the same way about the same pianos.

The other thing to realise is that the ACME 7'5" that I play and like is a different piano from the "identical" one in the ACME dealer's showroom in Chicago. No 2 pianos are alike, no 2 technicians will have prepared them identically. So I understand and accept it when someone else likes and purchases a piano which just didn't do it for me.
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1977577 - 10/23/12 01:04 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Jethro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 235
I've posted on and off on these forums through the years and over time began feeling it was big waste of time for those looking for unbiased opinions. I think the input of various industry leaders and piano dealers is invaluable and their input should be accessible, however there are many instances when an otherwise potentially informative post is hijacked by someone in the industry who has something to gain by hyping the particular brand(s) they happen to sell or are associated with in some way. I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out. (I usually look for threads populated by a particular dealer or for sure-fire amusement I usually search for a certain otherwise relatively obscure European brand that seems to the center of many fiery debates.)

That said, while I think it would be a mistake to forbid dealers and other industry leaders from posting (because honestly, so many of them mean well and they ARE very informative) but do the powers that be think it would be possible for a separate subforum in "Pianoforums" that is devoted soley to non-industry posters? Yes, it could turn into big fanboy appreciation thread but I think by eliminating posters who may have a biased opinion on the pianos they happen to represent, the poster can get a unique perspective solely from those who may have purchased a particular piano or just happen to be familiar with various makes and models. There are many non-industry posters here who have very thoughtful things to say. I especially value the input of experienced pianists and serious students of piano. Those looking for further information on a particular model can then go the general forum to get their dealer questions answered yet realize that sometimes they may need to take the advice given with a grain of salt.
_________________________
Kawai RX-2

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#1977585 - 10/23/12 01:30 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
IMNSHO, no matter how much we strive to qualify what's being posted by whatever means, it will still be subjective, because we're all focused on a machine that produces subjectivity; art. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I think the industry pros who *stay* here and post have the best of intentions, including their biases.

I think Frank has it just right: Industry pros simply need to be up front about who they are. Beyond that, there's too much subjectivity.
_________________________
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#1977636 - 10/23/12 04:04 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: OperaTenor]
Jethro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 235
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
IMNSHO, no matter how much we strive to qualify what's being posted by whatever means, it will still be subjective, because we're all focused on a machine that produces subjectivity; art. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I think the industry pros who *stay* here and post have the best of intentions, including their biases.

I think Frank has it just right: Industry pros simply need to be up front about who they are. Beyond that, there's too much subjectivity.





In regards to the industry pros I would have question (in *some* instances) whether or not the biases you speak of are in the best intentions for the buyer seeking information, or for those who have something to sell. That can sometimes be a problem. If you devote one subsection to non-industry pros only, that might help solve the problem- that's assuming everyone is forthright in regards to who they are.
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#1977662 - 10/23/12 05:43 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Jethro
I however there are many instances when an otherwise potentially informative post is hijacked by someone in the industry who has something to gain by hyping the particular brand(s) they happen to sell or are associated with in some way. I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out. (I usually look for threads populated by a particular dealer or for sure-fire amusement I usually search for a certain otherwise relatively obscure European brand that seems to the center


I've read a lot of threads here and in my experience, the most overcooked partisan pitches for a brand and the most poisonous and ill-deserved put-downs of other brands come from end users, not professionals. That would include some of your own pro-Kawai posts of the past IMO. While dealers are often standing by to defend their brands and engage in subtle persuasion, they are pretty circumspect in how they go about it and almost never engage in gratuitous put-downs of competitors. In general, I'd say that piano owners get away with murder here while industry people are ticketed for jaywalking.

If your main reason to drop by these days is simply to sneer have a good laugh, there would seem to be no reason for you to want to improve the place.
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#1977691 - 10/23/12 07:19 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: turandot]
Jethro Offline
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Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Jethro
I however there are many instances when an otherwise potentially informative post is hijacked by someone in the industry who has something to gain by hyping the particular brand(s) they happen to sell or are associated with in some way. I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out. (I usually look for threads populated by a particular dealer or for sure-fire amusement I usually search for a certain otherwise relatively obscure European brand that seems to the center


I've read a lot of thread here and in my experience, the most ovwercooked partisan pitches for a brand and the most poisonous and ill-deserved put-downs of other brands come from end users, not professionals. That would include some of your own pro-Kawai posts of the past IMO. While dealers are often standing by to defend their brands and engage in subtle persuasion, they are pretty circumspect in how they go about it and almost never engage in gratuitous put-downs of competitors. In general, I'd say that piano owners get away with murder here while industry people are ticketed for jaywalking.

If your main reason to drop by these days is simply to sneer have a good laugh, there would seem to be no reason for you to want to improve the place.


Never fail to please Turandot! Everyone is more than welcome to read my pro Kawai RX posts I've made in the past, I am a fanboy of my particular piano choice - murderous I don't know? I thought I gave some pretty fair and level advice. Let others be the judge. Either way, I'm not an industry professional and I am more than happy to share my experience with my purchase which is exactly the kind of info I relied on from PW when I made that decision. Ironically, Turandot *some* of your posts was what I was referring to when I wrote about "thoughtful" and "informative" posts- wasn't looking to start a war. Heck I was going to even suggest naming it "Turandot's Corner", but then I thought that might give you a big head and I don't want to be around when that thing explodes. smile Anyways I've always called it the way I saw it, been more than fair to anyone who posts here and been ever so patient when I spotted the endless sales pitches. So again, my suggestion to keep things civil is just to have a separate subsection dedicated to as Turandot put it "endusers". No industry professionals allowed. Love you guys, but sometimes we just want to hear from the regular gals and guys.
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#1977747 - 10/23/12 09:27 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
RayE Offline
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I think what you get out of a forums like this greatly depends on you realizing that with very little exception everything posted is someones oppinion and skewed by their particular bias for one product or sound over another. I'm not saying that oppinions aren't valuable, espeically if you get multiple posters with similar oppinions. You have to be a critical reader, and realize that the posters preferences may not be the same as yours. There are some experts on here piano techs etc. with a great deal of experience, and when asking questions about longevity of instruments, etc. you can weight their oppinions higher, but they still are oppinions based on their observations. Quite often you will get two experts who may dissagree greatly on a subject. There are all kinds of factors that could lead to this for example a technician who lives in a humid climate, may see a problem in instruments of a certain manufacturer, that a technician who lives in a dryer climate may not see. Neither technicians oppinion of that manufacturer is wrong it is just influenced and based on what they have seen in their environment.


Edited by RayE (10/23/12 09:30 PM)
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#1977779 - 10/23/12 10:50 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
OperaTenor Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jethro
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
IMNSHO, no matter how much we strive to qualify what's being posted by whatever means, it will still be subjective, because we're all focused on a machine that produces subjectivity; art. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I think the industry pros who *stay* here and post have the best of intentions, including their biases.

I think Frank has it just right: Industry pros simply need to be up front about who they are. Beyond that, there's too much subjectivity.





In regards to the industry pros I would have question (in *some* instances) whether or not the biases you speak of are in the best intentions for the buyer seeking information, or for those who have something to sell. That can sometimes be a problem. If you devote one subsection to non-industry pros only, that might help solve the problem- that's assuming everyone is forthright in regards to who they are.


That, generally speaking, has not been my observation. The only time(s) I have seen someone unduly peddling their wares, it's been more of a fly-by-night, a certain Mr. Wil$on being a classic case in point.

As for the biases to which I refer, let's say I'm selling Ellenburger pianos, which happen to be made in the same Chinese factory as the Oyster Creek pianos. If someone asks me if there's a difference between the brands, I'll honestly say I don't know(if I don't), then go on to expound on the attributes of the Ellenburger. I think it's safe to assume 7 out of 10 people ("end users," what the heck) will interpret that as bias toward the Ellenburger brand, when I'm simply sharing the knowledge I have.

That's the bias - or better yet, perceived bias - I'm talking about.



Edited by OperaTenor (10/23/12 10:58 PM)
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#1977908 - 10/24/12 08:48 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
turandot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jethro
[ wasn't looking to start a war.


Me neither, but I've been pretty consistent on this thread in observing that the concrete suggestions made on how we can improve the advice here are all based on removomg or minimizing an element of the membership that the person making the suggestion considers undesirable. I just don't think that's the way to go. It's nothing personal.

Added to that is your comment that you only check in here for an occasional laugh Does that strike you as possibly a tad condescending? And.... in those comments about one particular retailer and one particular obscure European piano brand you feel gets undue attention here, it's hard not to miss the sparks flying off an ax as it meets the grinding wheel. Would you say that those comments do not relate to a personal agenda?

Finally, I honestly can recall no example of the overt hijacking of a thread topic by a retailer who wants to turn it toward his agenda. That's not to say that retailers don't look for their posting opportunities and that there aren't many such opportunities presented, but taking advantage of an opportuity presented is not the same IMO as forcibly taking a thread off-topic.

My own impression is that topics are most often pulled off topic by non-industry members who insert themselves into threads as self-appointed thought moderators, going here, there, and everywhere to label what they don't agree with as irrelevant.
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#1977924 - 10/24/12 09:17 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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Is PW better yet? wink Jk....
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#1978004 - 10/24/12 12:35 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: turandot]
Jethro Offline
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Registered: 10/07/07
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Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Jethro
[ wasn't looking to start a war.


Me neither, but I've been pretty consistent on this thread in observing that the concrete suggestions made on how we can improve the advice here are all based on removomg or minimizing an element of the membership that the person making the suggestion considers undesirable. I just don't think that's the way to go. It's nothing personal.

Added to that is your comment that you only check in here for an occasional laugh Does that strike you as possibly a tad condescending? And.... in those comments about one particular retailer and one particular obscure European piano brand you feel gets undue attention here, it's hard not to miss the sparks flying off an ax as it meets the grinding wheel. Would you say that those comments do not relate to a personal agenda?

Finally, I honestly can recall no example of the overt hijacking of a thread topic by a retailer who wants to turn it toward his agenda. That's not to say that retailers don't look for their posting opportunities and that there aren't many such opportunities presented, but taking advantage of an opportuity presented is not the same IMO as forcibly taking a thread off-topic.

My own impression is that topics are most often pulled off topic by non-industry members who insert themselves into threads as self-appointed thought moderators, going here, there, and everywhere to label what they don't agree with as irrelevant.



Well, 3 points to make

I was being honest about why I check in from time to time and yes it is for the occasional amusement or an occasional laugh. There are topics on these forums that can often take an amusing turn. I cannot help but laugh at times that a musical instrument could be the source of so much heated debate. I don't know if that's condescending if I see it that way, but it is what it is...

The reason why I haven't posted in some time is simply because I started a new business and just haven't had the time to post. If I had an agenda, certainly you would think I would have made more than 1 post in over a year? I mean, c'mon dude! My only agenda was to give some advice based on the original poster's question. It was just a suggestion. My concerns with the piano forums section was that the advice on these boards were not always as transparent or balanced as they could be. There is no perfect solution- but my suggestion might be a start. As I stated above, no one wants to remove the ability of an industry professional to post.

You make some really good points otherwise in your comments above. You are correct in that it is wrong to minimize suggestions one considers "undesirable". It is wrong for anyone to be "condescending" in their posts. It is wrong for "non-industry members to insert themselves into threads as self-appointed thought moderators going here, there, and everywhere to label what they don't agree with as irrelevant." That is all really good advice but based on the way you responded to my first post ( and I'm pretty sure many others feel this way as well), I think sometimes you just need to heed your own advice.




Edited by Jethro (10/24/12 12:53 PM)
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#1978046 - 10/24/12 01:59 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Online   content
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The whole idea that the "we" in the title of thread has some major significance is quite silly IMO. Virtually none of the posters saw it that way and there were around fifty posts by many different posters before the comments about the significance Of "we" came along.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/24/12 02:01 PM)

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#1978051 - 10/24/12 02:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Online   content
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It would be interesting if this thread deteriorated into the type of thread that prompted the question to begin with.
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#1978058 - 10/24/12 02:41 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Larry Buck]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It would be interesting if this thread deteriorated into the type of thread that prompted the question to begin with.


Heading that way at light speed.
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#1978064 - 10/24/12 02:48 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Entheo Offline
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one more suggestion to improve these forums -- an Ignore button, a common feature on BBS software, which would help improve the Signal to Noise ratio both in terms of personal selection and preemptive elimination of conflict.

update: found it -- it's on the user profile.


Edited by Entheo (10/24/12 02:59 PM)
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#1978095 - 10/24/12 04:07 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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A maximum number of postings per week would compel members to consider seriously the content of what they post and when.

Also some online newspaper forums I am on do not allow editing. This also compels the poster to think seriously about the content of a posting.

Say 35-50 postings per week…one could have the choice of posting daily or jettison the entire amount in one day.

I believe this would go a long way to cutting down the bickering and sniping; one would not see a lot of throwaway postings.

I thought of another interesting one that is completely unworkable; dealers would not be permitted to post about what they sell; only what they don’t sell. It would make for some pretty interesting postings.
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#1978115 - 10/24/12 04:50 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
turandot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It would be interesting if this thread deteriorated into the type of thread that prompted the question to begin with.


Heading that way at light speed.


grin

Well, it won't be because of me. I've been told that 50 odd posts have proven that my idea of collective responsibility (rather than evicting undesirables from the tenement grin) is silly, so I'll just sit in a corner.

I do like your idea of a post limit though. Since I've been on a self-imposed reading and posting diet, my physique has improved a lot. Seriously, I agree that it places a premium on organizing one's thoughts prior to blabbering.

I don't know how management would feel about a decline in overall post count though. Quality over quantity is not always an easy sell. It's like those top-level French restaurants where the artistry of presentation can't quite overcome the hunger in the belly. grin
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#1978120 - 10/24/12 05:05 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Online   content
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Bumping up against the "Wall" is exactly what reminds us of where that "Wall" is.

Piano World has a way of working all things out.

At times, I have to introspect thoroughly as I am reading. I think this is where much of my own personal growth is.

If we constrain things any more than they are by the moderators, I think value is lost.

BTW, I think the moderators do a very good job.




Edited by Larry Buck (10/24/12 09:05 PM)
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#1978132 - 10/24/12 05:19 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Supply Offline
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I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.
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#1978151 - 10/24/12 05:48 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.



This is what I mean. History should not be re-written. A poster makes a posting and if mistaken it is reconciled over time and further postings for all to view.

Like I stated previously this would cut down on a lot of the unnecessary (read snarky) content. It would also force members to think about what the content of the posting actually is.
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#1978157 - 10/24/12 06:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Dave B Offline
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Putting all snarkynesses aside, I agree with the recurring thread that keeps weaving its way through this thread, Stay On Topic!

Whew, finally got that out.
Thanks.

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#1978167 - 10/24/12 06:35 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here.
I think this is way PW editing works right now. At least that has been my experience with editing. I don't know what the present time limit is. It actually seems to vary from post to post.

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#1978179 - 10/24/12 07:14 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Larry Buck]
OperaTenor Offline
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Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Bumping up against the "Wall" is exactly what reminds us of where that "Wall" is.

Piano World has a way of working all things out.

At times, I have to introspect thoroughly as I am reading. I think this is where my much of my own personal growth is.

If we constrain things any more than that they are by the moderators, I think value is lost.

BTW, I think the moderators do a very good job.




This ^^

There is no perfect internet forum out there. I think a good enough balance is struck here that keeps the content interesting and varied.
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#1978197 - 10/24/12 08:19 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
backto_study_piano Offline
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Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.


I was glad there was an edit facility when a particular manufacturer demanded that I withdraw all negative comments about one of their products - (I removed all references I ever made about all their products, including substantial positive comments). These comments were older than 20 minutes.
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#1978222 - 10/24/12 09:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Online   content
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I am very happy I could edit my poor grammar in my above last post.

You can still read my bad grammar in Opera Tenor's quote of me ;-) ....

Nothing ever truly disappears on the web ....
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#1978239 - 10/24/12 09:47 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jethro Offline
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Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 235
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.



This is what I mean. History should not be re-written. A poster makes a posting and if mistaken it is reconciled over time and further postings for all to view.

Like I stated previously this would cut down on a lot of the unnecessary (read snarky) content. It would also force members to think about what the content of the posting actually is.


Meh... I edited my last post to actually add additional snarkiness to my content. I thought I was simply being too easy on Turandot.
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#1978261 - 10/24/12 10:56 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Supply Offline
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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Now that is funny.

I just went back to posts of mine that are over a month old. I can still edit them.

[Edit:] Maybe I should while I still can?


Edited by Supply (10/25/12 12:40 AM)
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#1978280 - 10/24/12 11:55 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Larry Buck]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
I am very happy I could edit my poor grammar in my above last post.

You can still read my bad grammar in Opera Tenor's quote of me ;-) ....

Nothing ever truly disappears on the web ....


I'm here to help...

;-)
_________________________
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#1978408 - 10/25/12 09:23 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
turandot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jethro
I've posted on and off on these forums through the years and over time began feeling it was big waste of time for those looking for unbiased opinions.... I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out.


Originally Posted By: Jethro
The reason why I haven't posted in some time is simply because I started a new business and just haven't had the time to post.


Originally Posted By: Jethro

I edited my last post to actually add additional snarkiness to my content. I thought I was simply being too easy on Turandot.


Jethro,

Make up your mind.

It's truly difficult to believe that you came into this thread to offer constructive comments on the thread topic.
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#1978412 - 10/25/12 09:36 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Ed Foote Online   content
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Hmm, back to the topic.

We will improve our content, immensely, by knowing when not to respond. It isn't as self-aggrandizing as leaping to the fray, but it is a lot more effective. A forum where B.S. passes through, rather than being held up at the first check-point as a target for snipers, is a cleaner place. Smells better, too.
If some fool is wrong, the peer community may well point it out, but trying to convince, or to continue looking for capitulation is folly. There are too many out there that seek contention for their own personal needs and they post not for community with the forum, but rather, as a means of creating the rancor and strife in which they feel most comfortable. Knowing when to ignore is a higher form of communication than descending into the mud pit of ignorance with someone that is already there and comfortable in it.

Regards,

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#1978461 - 10/25/12 12:09 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: turandot]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Jethro
I've posted on and off on these forums through the years and over time began feeling it was big waste of time for those looking for unbiased opinions.... I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out.


Originally Posted By: Jethro
The reason why I haven't posted in some time is simply because I started a new business and just haven't had the time to post.


Originally Posted By: Jethro

I edited my last post to actually add additional snarkiness to my content. I thought I was simply being too easy on Turandot.


Jethro,

Make up your mind.

It's truly difficult to believe that you came into this thread to offer constructive comments on the thread topic.
I see nothing inconsistent in his statements that require that he make up his mind.

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#1978466 - 10/25/12 12:17 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Offline
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People forget that this whole discussion is missing a very important part, at least as long as real players are involved.

It's not about advice "given" - but "gotton"

Pianist and buyers typically offer advice and opinions which a true professional will respect.

Just read Franz Mohr's book.

As professional one can offer different samples and experiences involving different pianos and their state of preparation.

Widening possible choices for buyers is not the same as "giving an opinion".

2 very different things.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (10/25/12 12:18 PM)
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