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#2095058 - 06/04/13 04:24 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Piano Rookie]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
CA15 has a two generation older (assumably simpler, using less HW ressources) built in sound engine, than the CA65. (PHI -> UPHI -> HI-XL)

You should be able to compare these through headphones.

Amp/Boxes may be favorable for one or the other, with regard to your personal taste.

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#2095064 - 06/04/13 04:43 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Yeh - the PHI is indeed older, but...as far as I know based on the same sample set. I understood UPHI has one extra velocity layer (of course smoothed by the PHI processing) , so you might notice that when you compare them hitting fff back to back due too different samples being played. Perhaps the HI-XL has even more layers, or simply just longer samples. Anyway - in my understanding the two are still based on the very same recordings and sample set. Differences may occur due to :

- other sound imaging of the cabinet / speakers / placement of the DP in the room (try compare them over the same headphone !!)
- other velocities being played, hard to hit the exact same level on both instruments
- other preset and / or other programming of the preset ; meaning other Virtual Technician settings.
- other effect sound ; try comparing them completely dry !

If there is indeed a difference in the samples being used between PHI , UHPI en HI-XL (apart from length and maybe an extra layer), perhaps James can clarify. Then you don't have to tear your hairs out on this any longer , doubting if what you hear is true or imaginary. Is that classified and top secret info , James ? Not asking the source code of the processing, just if it is possible there are indeed other base samples being used here and there , between PHI en HI-XL.

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#2095068 - 06/04/13 04:55 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: JFP]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: JFP
I understood UPHI has one extra velocity layer...


This is not correct. UPHI requires twice as much memory as PHI.

The default 'Concert Grand' sound for HI, PHI, UPHI, and HI-XL all utilise the same source audio recordings. However sample lengths, degree of expressive detail, amount of memory, and quality of processing differ considerably from entry-level (e.g. CL26) to flagship (e.g. CA95) models.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2095109 - 06/04/13 08:36 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
overton Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/15/13
Posts: 9
I can attest to the noisy sound on some notes of my CA65.
It is heard in the voices of Grand Piano, Studio Grand, Mellow Grand, Jazz Grand, Upright Piano.
It looks like a quiet rattle, squeak, "bzzzz" and this can be heard in the headphones and speakers.
It should be noted that on the votes of Concert Grand 2, Studio Grand 2, Mellow Grand 2, Jazz2 e.t.c the noise can be heard.
I think this is the result of poor performance synthesizer or effects circuit, no amplifier and speakers. No other music or sounds do not give this noise. I have playing on CA65 mp3-files, and did not hear any noise, even at very high volume. I have played all organs, e-pianos voices, assuming that there is some resonance frequencies corresponding to those notes. No, the only reason is a synthesizer or sound samples.
As is clear, the problem occurs, the case is not unique. We are waiting for an explanation from the representatives of the Kawai.

PS. If necessary, I can make a recording of these notes sounds, which will be heard the noise.

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#2095111 - 06/04/13 08:42 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: overton]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: overton
We are waiting for an explanation from the representatives of the Kawai.


To clarify are you already in contact with your Kawai distributor and/or Kawai Europe? If so, I would certainly recommend providing recordings of the sounds you hear. It may also be worth turning all of the Virtual Technician enhancements off.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2095206 - 06/04/13 11:44 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Kawai James]
Piano Rookie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: Kawai James


It may also be worth turning all of the Virtual Technician enhancements off.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi James,

thanks for this suggestion! We didn't try that. What the dealer did however was a "factory reset" in order to make sure the sound was not due to someone having changed the settings of the VT. However, this probably does not turn off the settings but just activates the defaults.

Is there a way to turn off all additional effects in a simple way or has this to be done for each individual setting? I would try that out next time I go to the shop (it's further away so I can't just drop by)

Cheers

Piano Rookie

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#2095215 - 06/04/13 12:05 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Piano Rookie]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I would suggest to turn off the noises for pedals, dampers, strings at first - these produced the most disturbing bad by-sounds with my SW pianos, producing unnatural "pneumatic" sounds like whahh of chorus effects.

(I turned it off with my VD, however, I am more willing to bring up a forgiving attitude towards SW pianos, when they are not optimized with a certain MIDI controller, than to a DP, which should have been tested as a package by the manufacturer.)

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#2095478 - 06/04/13 05:31 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Piano Rookie]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9680
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Piano Rookie
Is there a way to turn off all additional effects in a simple way or has this to be done for each individual setting? I would try that out next time I go to the shop (it's further away so I can't just drop by)


Each setting must be adjusted individually.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2102446 - 06/14/13 11:50 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Piano Rookie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 4
Update: The dealer has checked with Kawai:

i) The reason for the difference in sound between the CA-15 and the CA-65 is said to mainly be the different type of amp/speaker system. The (grand piano) sounds should essentially be of the same character.

ii) Thanks mainly to the built-in equalizer it should be possible to tune the sound of the CA-65 such that the two instruments will match - within acceptable errors bars, I assume, but that would be perfectly fine with me. He will verify this using the instruments in his shop. If the result is positive my progress bar of buying a CA-65 is at 99%.

@Kawai James: In the meantime there are a couple of questions which came to my mind:

i) Is it in general thinkable on the software side to update the musical data of the instruments in the years to come, e.g. to add or replace existing samples by newer and (better?) ones?

ii) If I understand correctly the samples recorded from the Kawai Grand Piano are used for all the grand piano sounds in the CA-65. Is it possible to say from which actual instruments the other sounds (e.g. uprights) have been sampled?

iii) Are there preset configurations available, which can be loaded onto the CA-65? I understand that all settings have to be adjusted individually. With the number of these settings being quite high the combinations are numerous and I suspect that it takes a long time to figure out a good configuration. This of course depends on the local situation and personal taste, but it may be good to have some pre-defined points to start from.

It would be great if it is possible to get some information on these things.

Cheers

Piano Rookie

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#2109637 - 06/28/13 12:14 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Piano Rookie Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/02/13
Posts: 4
Update: I ended up buying the CA 65 and am very happy with it.

I'll have to tune the settings but that's ok.

Cheers

Piano Rookie

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