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#1975118 - 10/18/12 11:20 AM KAWAI CA 65
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
first of all ... sorry for my english.
I bought two weeks ago a KAWAI CA 65 and I would like to report a problem. while playing, it feels out from the front speakers a swish annoying, especially in volume more than half. is a strange noise, airy, not an external vibration. this swish is heard even during the demos. it was a real disappointment, because this swish distracts me during performances. I hope that is not a flaw in my piano. KAWAI perhaps already aware of this problem. What do you recommend?
Thank you.

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#1975142 - 10/18/12 11:59 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
There is a synthesised pedal noise. On my grand, raising the dampers of the strings with the systain pedal made a swishing noise. Kawai added this effect to pressing the righthand (sustain) pedal. The effect can be turned off in the settings so my advice would be to turn this off first and see if that is what your hearing. I have a similar piano to you(ca95) and hopefully this is what you hear.

Regards. Paul
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1975306 - 10/18/12 04:53 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Interestingly, there was at the piano dealer a professional at place who had this same complaint which he described with very similar words. Ha tried to demonstrate this alleged phenomenon with both CA65 and CA95, even somewhat lesser with (very good) headphones, it should be more pronounced with CA65. I can't remember he used any pedal by this.

But how strong I tried I was not able to hear it at all. (I was in a very exhausted state and after acoustically demanding day with many car driving.)

He stated it is very audible and can be very disturbing. I have mentioned this on another thread, but how your describing seems to correspond precisely to that accounts.

I am using my CA51 with pleasure and never had any complaint with it, just wanting to update it after 4 years - I have narrowed my search down to the CA95. However before buying it I would like to hear some conclusive responses to these issues from consumers or even better from Kawai.

Regards Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1975331 - 10/18/12 05:53 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9528
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
MIXIO, as UK Paul UK notes, the CA65 features a 'Damper Noise' Virtual Technician setting which reproduces the sound of dampers being lifted from the strings. The volume of this effect can be reduced or set to 'Off'.

I am confident that adjusting the 'Damper Noise' setting will reduce or eliminate the sound you are hearing. However, if not, please contact the Kawai dealer (or distributor) from where the instrument was purchased to report the issue formally.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1975510 - 10/19/12 04:09 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
thanks for your answers.
I have to specify that the annoying noise is heard also without sustain pedal pressed, but very reduced.
with the sustain pedal pressed the strange airy swish is more evident but not continuous, it appears and disappears; probably it derives from some keys, not all keys.
If i use Grand Mellow Piano this swish almost disappears, but there always is .... it's smaller but always present. it's not a pleasure while i'm playing.
I will try to follow the advice of James ... i'll reduce "damper noise" with the virtual technician and i will inform you.

kind regards!

Mixio

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#1975547 - 10/19/12 07:43 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9528
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Mixio, please also raise this topic with your dealer.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1975557 - 10/19/12 07:59 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I received my replacement ca95 last night (with free stool this time...) and noticed immediately a similar sound through the headphones. My benefit is I have had my original ca95 three weeks and obviously got used to how it sounds. I only played for a short period but am notifying my contact at kawai and will see how it goes over the next couple if weeks.....
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1975609 - 10/19/12 10:02 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
UK PAUL UK, then i have to suppose that the "famous" swish is a manifactoring defect. i'll raise this topic with my dealer. i hope for the best but i'm worried! (I live on the top floor without lift :-()and I would not return the piano. may be it's possible resolve the matter with a KAWAI release in download

Kind regards.

mixio

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#1975762 - 10/19/12 02:35 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Originally Posted By: MIXIO
UK PAUL UK, then i have to suppose that the "famous" swish is a manifactoring defect. i'll raise this topic with my dealer. i hope for the best but i'm worried! (I live on the top floor without lift :-()and I would not return the piano. may be it's possible resolve the matter with a KAWAI release in download

Kind regards.

mixio


Hi, i have only had the one session with it so far, will get another couple of hours tomorrow for further investigation. As the piano delivery was rather late i only used headphones last night and since an hour before i was playing my original ca95 i had a very apparent change. The pedal effect is completely different. Ive emailed my kawai contact. I hope a software update will sort it but considering my original piano was fine... i have my doubts. Time will tell :-)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1976056 - 10/20/12 03:06 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
UK Paul UK, at least when these sounds are noticable through headphones, You should be able to produce and share an MP3 about it.

Then the rest of us could judge what kind of it actually is. (A digital processing artifact - as I would guess, some added noises aiming at simulating reality (damper pedal) or some amplifying quality problem or just nothing of relevance for us.)

(Fom my Galaxy Pianos I generally abandon pedal noises, because they do not seem there to blend organically with the rest of the instrument - however in Galaxy they are of real acoustic character, not just some dirty effect as You described it.)

It would be a great clarifying point and contribution, which can come only from one who definitely does have the problem.

Until then the issue remains a ghost hunting...

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#1976081 - 10/20/12 04:43 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Yes, i agree.... today i'm quite occupied with moving home, however i have already made the point i'm spending a couple of hours this afternoon playing ( ontop of getting up at 6am for an hour of coffee,cigerettes and sight reading practice for breakfast ) so i will investigate more later....
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1976105 - 10/20/12 07:02 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Just had a quick play and can definately hear a squishy sound with every key press both without headphones and with.... will upload a sample later.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1976616 - 10/21/12 05:22 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
last news ....
James wrote: "I am confident that adjusting the 'Damper Noise' setting will reduce or eliminate the sound you are hearing"; unfortunately it's not so.
the squishy sound is alwais there. it's like a man who breathes near your right ear.
but these sounds are not noticable through headphones.
then?i think it's a amplifying quality problem.
kind regards

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#1976620 - 10/21/12 06:09 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I can hear it through my headphones... :-(
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1976622 - 10/21/12 06:14 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Its nothing to do with the sustain pedal simulation.... my original ca95 didnt have this fault... just scratched black keys and the replacement now has this effect... can hear it with every keypress on mine.... with headphones or without. Rather have my scratched black keys back as the piano sounded beautifull after a week of my ears getting used to it.... not a happy man.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1976739 - 10/21/12 01:40 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Starts at e3 and gets worse up the keyboard for me....


Edited by UK Paul UK (10/21/12 01:46 PM)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1976746 - 10/21/12 01:50 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
StefaanBelgium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgium
If I understand correctly, you did not have this sound in your previous damaged CA65? If so, it must definately be something with your current DP. Did you contact your dealer already ?
_________________________
Kawai CA65

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#1976787 - 10/21/12 04:36 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I didnt notice it in my previous piano no... (ca95) still.... i'm not regretting getting the model even with these issues... after 2 hours this morning on my old dp(now my daughters) and 2 hours this evening on the kawai i am still faithful if these issues can be sorted then im going to have many years of pleasure from it.... fabulous action.

My kawai rep got back to me a few minutes ago and will call me tomorrow to discuss further. (9pm here in uk)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1976970 - 10/22/12 03:16 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
PLEASANT SURPRISE!
AFTER THAT I USED THE KAWAI CA 65 WITH HEADPHONES, WITHOUT HEADPHONES THE STRANGE NOISE FEELS NO MORE. AM I CRAZY? Or is it POSSIBLE?
KIND REGARDS

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#1977132 - 10/22/12 02:17 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
We are just returning from a trekking tour in the Austrian Alps with family and on the route back I brought my son with me to one of the biggest music shops in Vienna with digital instruments selling to check this "problem" with the KAWAIs.

None of us was able to notice anything, how hard we tried. My son (17 yrs young) has excellent hearing capabilities and nothing bad could he detect either.

None of the KAWAIs there (CA95; CA65 and CL34) exposed anything at least not something strong enough to be detectable for us above sensitivity threshold after a 3 hr. loud car trip...

I tried now to listen on the right side speaker after the remarks UK Paul UK (we didn't have the opportunity to test it further with earphones this time.)

As it seems I could stick with my choice of CA95 - I see it now confirmed by this visit.

Some Pluses for the CA95:
- GF keyboard (quiet, smooth for my older finger joints but at the same time
responsive and precise enough)
- very real sound with soundboard, a very physical sensation
- KAWAIs good tuning features with user definable temperaments (important for my
special interests; lacking feature even with top notch Yamahas, at least I
couldn't find it in the manuals )
- Value of CA95 justifies the price over the CA65 (without soundboard and weaker
speaker/amplifying system - the even cheaper CN43 was in a complete another
class.)

Still I'll wait a little for some conclusion to these "user stories".

Greetings, Attila
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1977139 - 10/22/12 02:35 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Temperament]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Originally Posted By: temperament

- KAWAIs good tuning features with user definable temperaments


what are user definable temperaments, is it more then what Roland is offering on their HP500 series by selecting different temperaments ?

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#1977144 - 10/22/12 02:55 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
StefaanBelgium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgium
If you're interested in what exactly you can change ( it's a lot ! ), you should check out the PDF with the manual for both CA65/95 on Kawai's website. They call it 'virtual technician' .
link: http://www.kawai.de/service/ca95_65_e.pdf

Concerning sound on the Kawai CA65 ( which I have as well ): I like it and so far I have never heard anything strange or annoying, although I have to say I'm a beginner and do not have a trained ear like some of you.
_________________________
Kawai CA65

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#1977196 - 10/22/12 05:03 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: ap55]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Hi, ap55, I think for scale tuning it is not much more than Yamaha's letting to select a few historical temperaments.

But as the manual for HP507 does reveal, you have the possibility to individually tune every single key (s. under stretched tuning p.43-44).

It would be the most flexible method for tuning on paper but not a very practical feature to quickly edit/choose between scales. I find KAWAIs approach more practicable, but there I am just missing the combination of stretching and scale tuning: Temperament Questions

As it seems all leading manufacturers have enough potential for improvements in this field.

My recent work (not yet published) along with other literature on temperaments showed the very importance of these features for baroque and early classical music.
_________________________
Acoustic: own clavichord!, Burger&Jacoby,Biel (nice vintage vertical)
Digital: CA65; Pianoteq; Sampled:Galaxy VintageD+Vienna(Bösendorfer)
Sampletekk Black,PMI, etc...
Harpsi: Beurmann Dutch+Sampletekk, Clavichord:PMI+Wavelore+organs

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#1977200 - 10/22/12 05:18 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I'm sending the mp3 recording i made today of keys being pressed to my kawai contact. I'm going to wait for his response before posting it on here. Its quite clear to me with certain keys the phenomenon can be heard. I'm in a unique position in that i played 2 ca95 models within an hour of each other in my home. I hope this is just bad luck for me with two models and doesn't effect anyone else but its very apparent once noticed... He has asked for the label details for my current ca95 to check any alterations in production.

My current description of the sound is like a microphone has been placed next to the key bed, recorded the keys being pressed down really hard and then mixed it unnaturally into the sample.. Its the same length whether keys are pressed down and released or held down... and i can hear it with or without headphones. Its the same with or without reverb.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1977449 - 10/23/12 07:07 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
MIXIO Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 8
UK PAUL UK,
I'M AGREE WITY YOU: the sound is like a microphone has been placed next to the key bed.
I HAVE AN ANSWER: IS IT POSSIBLE THAT AFTER USING THE headphones, WITHOUT headphones THE STRANGE NOISE DISAPPEARS?
Greetings, MIXIO

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#1977475 - 10/23/12 08:29 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Haven't tried that... will give it a go tonight.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1980508 - 10/30/12 12:20 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
Alejo_Sweden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Sweden
Hello everybody!

I have the same problem with my CA-65.When I trying to play the Grand Piano (setting by default) I hear a kind of noise with some keys like a clang or over resonance with both speakers and headphones. I tried all tips that you described here and many others without results. I'm waiting for some new system version or patch that can solve this issue. I thought in the beginning that it was a problem only with my unit, but now I can realize that it wasn't.
Otherwise I am very happy with my DP.
Cordially,
Alejo


Edited by Alejo_Sweden (10/30/12 01:03 PM)

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#1980724 - 10/30/12 09:51 PM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: Alejo_Sweden]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2702
Yes, there are several keys (above middle "C") on my Kawai CA95 that give off a strange raspy metallic sound, and, just haven't been able to completely edit this away with the "Basic Settings" or, the "Virtual Technician."

These perceived sounds appear to be with the samples, themselves.

So, you can either live with it, or, find another digital.

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#1980790 - 10/31/12 02:36 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: pv88]
Alejo_Sweden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/30/12
Posts: 7
Loc: Sweden
Yes I know :=(
The problem to get another DP is that I bought my Kawai CA-65 from Germany and I live in Sweden. it can be a lite expensive change HE HE HE!
The other thing is that I like my Kawai CA-65. It has a good keyboard feeling and beautiful design.
I think that it will be a new software version in short to solve this issue. I'm sure


Edited by Alejo_Sweden (10/31/12 02:37 AM)

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#1980821 - 10/31/12 06:10 AM Re: KAWAI CA 65 [Re: MIXIO]
StefaanBelgium Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/14/12
Posts: 53
Loc: Belgium
I really don't hear anoying sounds like some of you. I do hear the key release and tapping sounds, but you can always turn that off if you don't like that. What sounds terrible to me is when you put it in 'Upright' mode . If you're used to the standard 'Grand piano' setting, it's almost as if they used an inferiour sound sample or a bad upright. But who puts it in 'Upright' mode anyway ?
_________________________
Kawai CA65

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