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#1974720 - 10/17/12 05:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
If you're discussing the final cadence, then it is happening at the END of the passage that is in that key.

I'm not discussing the final cadence but a final cadence (as opposed to an imperfect or interrupted cadence).

Edit: The tonic key is established with the first major or minor key harmony. That key will stay established until the key is changed and confirmed with a final cadence. In a sonata there will be a passage where the key changes from tonic to dominant. There will be an extra sharp added (or a flat naturalised) and new chords will suggest that something has happened and that we have left the tonic key but it won't be until the cadence at the end of the second subject that the new key is established.

In the development section new keys will be introduced but they are mostly passing modulations. If a new key ends a phrase with a final cadence and a new phrase begins in that new key then that new key will be established. Typically that won't be until a dominant passage leads us to expect a return to tonic.

No, you don't rewind mentally and say you've been in that new key but the final cadence should confirm your suspicions.



Edited by zrtf90 (10/17/12 05:26 PM)
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#1974743 - 10/17/12 05:43 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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I think that this is in line with what I wrote out before. I used "I chord extensions" as an example or something concrete, but it comes down to the same thing.

What do you mean by a "major or minor key harmony"? (It's helpful to have examples going with terminology. Not only do we have different degrees of knowledge, but we may also be used to different terms.) Thx. smile

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#1974754 - 10/17/12 05:56 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I mean a major chord or a minor chord not a dominant seventh such as would start an introduction. I'm thinking of Beethoven's seventh Symphony or his Op. 111 sonata.

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#1974761 - 10/17/12 06:01 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I mean a major chord or a minor chord not a dominant seventh such as would start an introduction. I'm thinking of Beethoven's seventh Symphony or his Op. 111 sonata.


A single major or minor chord, or at least two chords? I gave my example of "tonic extension" via Sarnecki. That kind of thing? The simplest example was C to C6; then maybe an example of C Bdim/D C6 .... we've got that C chord in there a couple of times so that the music shouts out "C". (RN's ... I - I6; I - viio6 - I6)

Note to self: check out that symphony and sonata.


Edited by keystring (10/17/12 06:28 PM)
Edit Reason: addendums (addenda?)

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#1974780 - 10/17/12 06:26 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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Back to Sonatina 5 - 3rd mov't - Rondo

I found the beginning of the development section interesting musically. You have a chromatically descending bass line mm 62 to 64 going from E to B (E, D#, D, C#, C, B). Then again mm. 70 - 73 from A# to F# (A#, A, G#, G, F#). Essentially it's the same passage, first in the key of E minor, and then in the key of B minor. There is a call-answer feeling to it. The passages end slightly differently since they are moving to something different each time. The second one then moves into a different theme, marking an end to this repetition. I just found this really cool. How did Clementi go from mundane and boring to interesting in the second half?

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#1974805 - 10/17/12 07:04 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
I mean a major chord or a minor chord not a dominant seventh such as would start an introduction. I'm thinking of Beethoven's seventh Symphony or his Op. 111 sonata.


A single major or minor chord, or at least two chords?

Enough to establish tonality! An empty octave won't do it.

I know tonic when I hear. If a simple major chord is played in RH but the fifth is played on the bass has tonality been established? No, I don't think so.

Sonatina #1: C is established in measure 1, beat three, when the G confirms C major.

Sonatina #2: G major is etsablished on the second quaver in M2 when the bass has played the G and both D and B have been heard.

Sonatina #3: C major is established on the second quaver.

Sonatina #4: F major isn't firmly established until the A on beat three even though it's strongly pointed to (three F's and only F's on beat one). I don't think the C is needed in M2 to establish F major.

Actually I've just been all through Mozart's, Haydn's and Beethoven's sonatas and they all start on tonic except Op.111.
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#1974809 - 10/17/12 07:10 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: keystring]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: keystring
Back to Sonatina 5 - 3rd mov't - Rondo

How did Clementi go from mundane and boring to interesting in the second half?

Toni Wine and Carole Bayer Sager didn't find it so boring! smile
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#1974862 - 10/17/12 09:07 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
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#1975116 - 10/18/12 11:13 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Re-post from last Thursday;

Clementi Sonatinen No. 6 - Download

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#1975122 - 10/18/12 11:32 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Sonatina No. 6 Movement 1

We have had one week of catching up, some rest I suppose (let me know please, if not ready yet to proceed) and great further discussion on the establishment of a new key, and other discussion. So, will see how well I can apply this.

Exposition M1 - M38

D Major | A Major

A Major is clearly stated at the end of the exposition with a V-I cadence. But, tonality is shifted starting in M13. Where is it officially established? Not sure yet, more analysis pending ...

Development M39-M55

I haven't look closely at the tonality of this section yet, but on first glance looks for the most part that we are not straying very far from D Major.

Recapitulation M56-M90
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#1975178 - 10/18/12 01:12 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito

Originally Posted By: Greener
Exposition M1 - M38
...
Development M39-M55
...
Recapitulation M56-M90

Whilst I'm comfortable with your numbers for the main sections I'd like to ask a) if you're in two sharps, what sharp do you expect next, b) what reasons do you have for suspecting M13 as beginning the shift to A major and c) where does the harmony start becoming diatonic to A major but no longer to D major?
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#1975182 - 10/18/12 01:18 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I am ready to start on Sonatina 6.

I have been reading a bit about musicality on the web, and found one site which listed several aspects of musicality, harmony being just one of about six aspects. Interestingly, I discovered that my aural skills are just fine on the other five aspects.

I want to approach Sonatina 6 differently, taking a more aural approach (as I started to do with a previous sonatina), and also investigating the other aspects of musicality.

I am thinking about what Richard wrote about establishing a key, and realized: I'm just fine with that as a definition "cadence plus start next phrase in same key" -- or whatever tweaks you want to make to it. But I just don't hear that (except for hearing the cadence, but it doesn't necessarily make me hear or remember a specific pitch as tonic), so when Richard started attaching the establishment of a key to aural experience, that is all completely unusable information for me. (Not saying you shouldn't attach it, just remarking that I'm finally acknowledging to myself, in a neutral kind of way, where I can make sense of things and where it's just beyond me.)

Similarly with keystring's writing about the prolongation of tonic through well-chosen chords. I can find that on paper in a score, but it doesn't really mean anything to me aurally.

Anyway, after Gary's encouraging words I'm trying to let go of wanting my aural skills to match a certain preconceived idea I had gotten of what I "should" be able to do; and just appreciating what it is that I can do. Hearing harmony in ways that I can pinpoint may always be a weak point for me, but I enjoy music, and can play piano and sing (even both at the same time smile ) and dance musically (although not while playing piano wink ), so that's good.
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#1975199 - 10/18/12 01:43 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Whilst I'm comfortable with your numbers for the main sections I'd like to ask a) if you're in two sharps, what sharp do you expect next, b) what reasons do you have for suspecting M13 as beginning the shift to A major and c) where does the harmony start becoming diatonic to A major but no longer to D major?


a) G#
b) Whoops, not M13 (just read it wrong) ... more like M16 when start seeing the G#
c) M16

Edit: I don't have a good feeling about my first answer. But should know this by now. Sorry, need to dig up some previous notes. Back in a flash ...


Edited by Greener (10/18/12 01:59 PM)

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#1975209 - 10/18/12 01:55 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito

Splendid, Jeff. So, is M16 the end of the first subject, the start of the second subject, or something else?

Are you doing a harmonic analysis of the development and finding out where the material is coming from? It doesn't look as though PS88 is.
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#1975217 - 10/18/12 01:58 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I might, but I haven't gotten actually started yet. Finding out where the material is coming from is one of the non-harmony things I want to pay more attention to this time around.

Anyway, it's fine if Greener gets there first.
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#1975231 - 10/18/12 02:25 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito
So, is M16 the end of the first subject, the start of the second subject, or something else?


I would suggest it is something else. Seems more like a second subject coming in at M22, and not here.

Question: the next sharp, (or next flat, as it may be) we would expect is always the missing # (or flat) in the dominant of the key I am currently in. Is this correct and an appropriate way to view this?

I will take a look at development. But, will await your post on this first, PS88. Unless of course, I get some tidbits I just can't wait to share.
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#1975242 - 10/18/12 02:55 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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It's normal for a sonata in a major key to go from tonic to dominant. That's an extra sharp for sharp keys and C but a flat less for flatted keys. It's always a step to the right on your circle of fifths.

Many sonatas go to the sub-dominant before returning to tonic, that's a step to the left so it's one flat more or one sharp less.

Always the sharps and flats are added in the same order. All sharp keys have F#, the next sharp will always be C#, then G#, and so on.
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#1975244 - 10/18/12 02:59 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: Greener]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito
So, is M16 the end of the first subject, the start of the second subject, or something else?


I would suggest it is something else. Seems more like a second subject coming in at M22, and not here.



Spot on. This (M16) is the bridge passage. Note how it differs from its counterpart in the recapitulation.

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#1975276 - 10/18/12 03:59 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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I have learned a new word from Greener's post: "shifting" tonality vs. "established" tonality.

So back in #4 (or was it #5), mvmt 1, would it be correct to say the tonality is shifting to D starting in m.13, and established in D in m.16?

(I'm not trying to move us back to those sonatinas; that's just the example I could thinking off the top of my head: the one that started the discussion of establishing a key.)
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#1975286 - 10/18/12 04:22 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Yes, the introduction of non-diatonic notes/harmonies is perceived as shifting tonality until a final cadence can establish it.
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#1975314 - 10/18/12 05:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
keystring Online   content
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I'll try to get at it tonight.

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#1975339 - 10/18/12 06:20 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Yes, the introduction of non-diatonic notes/harmonies is perceived as shifting tonality until a final cadence can establish it.

Perceived as shifting tonality? Oh no it's not -- at least not by me smile .

In all seriousness, people who can hear tonality don't perceive being in a new key until there's a cadence? Even if the notes from that key are played for measures and measures and measures on end, people who hear really just feel like things are shifting and they have no suspicions or expectations about where it's going to end up -- indeed, where it already is --, in the new key?

But by contrast they can tell within three beats of the beginning of a piece what key it's in? Why aren't they suspending judgment there as well and supposing "well this sounds like we'd expect a tonic at this pitch, but, oh, no, can't be sure until I hear a cadence?"

I'm confused.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (10/18/12 06:42 PM)
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#1975355 - 10/18/12 06:48 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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I deliberately used the word perceived so that it could be taken either as heard or as seen in the score - so much for my attempt at diplomacy! smile

"In all seriousness, people who can hear tonality don't perceive being in a new key until there's a cadence?"
No, I can hear that I'm not in tonic but I can't say the new key is established until there's a cadence - exactly the same as when reading a score except that in a score I can clearly see what key the music is moving to/through.

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#1975413 - 10/18/12 09:14 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Ok, what does a key being "established" mean?

Is it just a definition? Something like, "when a phrase cadences in a new key, and the next phrase starts in that key, we say the key is 'mumblefrotz'.". (Replace 'mumblefrotz' with any other collection of syllables of your choice, like 'whizzty-gig' or 'diddlecue' or 'established'.)

Or does it correspond to some psychological or aural phenemon? Something like, "people who can hear this kind of thing have an up-in-the-air or incomplete feeling during the preceding measures, and only have a complete feeling when they hear the cadence"? But then how is that different from hearing a cadence at the end of any phrase that stays in the same key?

Or does it mean something like "For people who can hear this kind of thing, they have a memory of the old tonic, and although they can hear a difference in key, they don't feel satisfied until they hear the new tonic in a definitive way introduced by a cadence?"

Or something else yet again?

Maybe it's impossible to explain to someone who doesn't hear it. Like trying to explain a spoon falling off the table to someone deaf:

Me: "How did you know it fell on the floor?"

You: "I heard it."

Me: "Oh, OK, I can't hear it, and if I'm not looking I won't know anything happened, but if I'm looking and see it vanish off the table, I'll know to say it fell on the floor."

(spoon falls in someone's lap)

Me: "That spoon just fell on the floor!"

You: "No, it fell in someone's lap."

Me: "How do you know?"

You: "Because it sounded different."

Me: "I give up. I can see the spoon vanish but I'm never going to be able to figure out when I'm supposed to say it fell on the floor and when I'm supposed to say it fell in someone's lap."
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#1975460 - 10/18/12 11:34 PM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Listened to it. Sounded like two movements to me, with the first movement 6 minutes long.

Heard interesting effects in places which I think were being achieved through harmony/shifting tonality.

Couldn't identify exposition/development/recapitulation in first movement. If it really is six minutes long, I wasn't prepared to be listening over such a long timescale. If it's shorter, I still didn't detect them.

I liked how it sounded, and how it was played. It's not stop-you-in-your-tracks like a Beethoven sonata, but it's lively, and orderly, and has some interesting and surprising sounds that I liked.
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#1975484 - 10/19/12 12:41 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Something that I notice sometimes is that the music will be going along, and then all of a sudden it will sound higher. I don't mean specific notes; I mean as an overall effect it sounds higher. I wonder if what I'm hearing is the key change to the dominant.
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#1975571 - 10/19/12 08:30 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Ok, what does a key being "established" mean?

Hmmm!
____________________________

This, being a statement, would be read with a flat inflection but being a question should be read with a rising inflection at the end so you need to get to the end of the sentence to confirm whether or not you'll need to prepare a response. Won't you?

Some sentences read like statements all the way through and at the very turn out to be questions, don't they?

Isn't it the way, though, that some questions make it clear at the ouset that it's a question?

This is how I hear music. It's not until I get to the end of the phrase/section that I know if there's a 'rising inflection' at the end and if there is then I can expect another, balancing phrase, to complete the 'paragpraph'. So it's important to me to hear or feel the tonality at the start and compare it to the tonality I hear at the end. It tells me whether I'm listening to a question or a statement.

Isn't it nice when the question starts with the verb-subject order? You know right away it's a question. It's not as easy when the question part comes right at the end, is it?

And sometimes when you get a long line that you aren't sure about one way or the other because the question part comes right at the end, and after the main statement, like my opening paragraph, and it leaves you in doubt, doesn't it? Did it end with a rising inflection on the 'won't you' (requiring a yes/no response) or a falling inflection (not requiring a response or at least nothing more than simple agreement). If it's the former is the first sentence part of the question? Or is it a statement with a short question at the end? And if it's the latter is it really a question?

And even then, the question may turn out to be rhetorical and even though it's phrased as a question it's really a statement. Is it a long statement with a short question added afterwards? Or is it one long question, broken into two sentences?

So, sometimes we need to read the next sentence to be sure whether we've heard a question or a statement. Are we asking questions? Or just speaking quizzically?

A transition from tonic to dominant is, for me, a rising inflection. I won't be satisfied until I've heard the answer by way of a return to tonic. A resounding ii-V-I cadence at the end of the exposition may have an air finality, grammatically, but if it's in the dominant it is simply a large question mark. I know the question has finished but I still need the answer.
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In Sonatina #1, for example, the exposition ends in G major, the dominant, with a final cadence. The development begins also in G major and so establishes the key - but it's not a new tonic - it's a new key.

In Sonatina #6 the bridge passage, M16, introduces G# suggesting A major and cadences with (a rootless) B7-E major - an imperfect cadence in A (it's not a final cadence in E because the E hasn't risen from D# nor fallen from F#). The second subject then begins in A so for me, A is now established as a new key.
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#1975572 - 10/19/12 08:31 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Listened to it...6 minutes long...Heard interesting effects...I liked how it sounded, and how it was played...it's lively, and orderly, and has some interesting and surprising sounds that I liked...[but] I wasn't prepared to be listening over such a long timescale

Jeff, I hope you're not spending more than six minutes on any of your analyses!!

laugh
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#1975575 - 10/19/12 08:34 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
zrtf90 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Something that I notice sometimes is that the music will be going along, and then all of a sudden it will sound higher. I don't mean specific notes; I mean as an overall effect it sounds higher. I wonder if what I'm hearing is the key change to the dominant.
That's what I'm wondering, too! How can you enjoy music if you can't hear this stuff? Are you expecting the change to dominant to sound like the change from woodwind to brass? Can you tell a sigh (a falling semitone) from a question (a rising fifth)?

Can you hear this stuff and just not recognise that's what it is?

Caesar: "We're in the dominant now."
Brutus: "What? I heard no fanfare, no drum roll! All I got was this little inflection!"
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#1975582 - 10/19/12 08:52 AM Re: Classical Sonata Analysis [Re: zrtf90]
Greener Offline

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Originally Posted By: zrtf90

Jeff, I hope you're not spending more than six minutes on any of your analyses!!

laugh


Thanks for mentioning. I did in fact slow down somewhat. As it turns out, I am having a bit of an issue with the spoon as well. smile

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

"I give up. I can see the spoon vanish but I'm never going to be able to figure out when I'm supposed to say it fell on the floor and when I'm supposed to say it fell in someone's lap."
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