Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#1975299 - 10/18/12 04:43 PM sharps, flats and naturals....
rada Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/07/06
Posts: 1124
Loc: pagosa springs,co
I find it very annoying to explain to students when they are entered in incorrect places....ie....across a bar line....arghhh!

rada

Top
(ad) My Music Staff
Check out the new way to manage your music studio
#1975546 - 10/19/12 07:39 AM Re: sharps, flats and naturals.... [Re: rada]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3168
Loc: Virginia, USA
On the other hand, there are many places where the so-called "courtesy" accidental avoids a LOT of trouble.
_________________________
gotta go practice

Top
#1975893 - 10/19/12 07:10 PM Re: sharps, flats and naturals.... [Re: rada]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 334
Loc: San Diego, CA
So these things are called "courtesy" accidentals? As a beginning student they have caused me no end of confusion and I have used a lot of names for them, most of which I dare not repeat here. I also know my teacher is getting really tired of explaining it to me. Just keep thinking there must be some deeper reason for them that I don't understand.

Top
#1975922 - 10/19/12 08:08 PM Re: sharps, flats and naturals.... [Re: rada]
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11582
Loc: Canada
When a musician sight reads fluidly and fast, he may remember the accidental on into the next measure even if it has been cancelled. So a quick view of the courtesy accidental helps this fast reader note what has been cancelled and what hasn't. It has something to do with the reading process. Sometimes they are placed in parentheses like this (#).

I used to hate courtesy accidentals because I felt something needed to be changed, when it was actually telling me that the notes stayed the same (as in the signature).

Top
#1975951 - 10/19/12 08:41 PM Re: sharps, flats and naturals.... [Re: rada]
LadyChen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 521
Loc: Canada
I appreciate courtesy accidentals, but I do prefer if they are indicated in parentheses, as Keystring mentioned.

Top
#1975953 - 10/19/12 08:45 PM Re: sharps, flats and naturals.... [Re: rada]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5221
Loc: Europe
A courtesy accidental can have two main points behind it:

* To repeat an accidental mid bar, in case someone forgot. This makes sense, but doesn't need a parenthesis really. It's just there and even if it was a 'real' accidental it's still be working the same way.

* To cancel (with a natural) in the next bar an accidental, just in case someone forgets to cancel that. Again, what the natural does is clear, despite being in parenthesis or not.

I don't like parenthesis, but I do feel a need for courtesy accidentals in more complicated scores.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#1976555 - 10/21/12 01:14 AM Re: sharps, flats and naturals.... [Re: keystring]
SoundThumb Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 334
Loc: San Diego, CA
Originally Posted By: keystring
When a musician sight reads fluidly and fast, he may remember the accidental on into the next measure even if it has been cancelled. So a quick view of the courtesy accidental helps this fast reader note what has been cancelled and what hasn't. It has something to do with the reading process.


Thanks, this is what I suspected. Now I just have to figure out what makes only certain places in the score a special case in which a good sight reader might need a reminder verses the many other places in which no reminder is included.

Top
#1976564 - 10/21/12 01:39 AM Re: sharps, flats and naturals.... [Re: SoundThumb]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5221
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: SoundThumb
Thanks, this is what I suspected. Now I just have to figure out what makes only certain places in the score a special case in which a good sight reader might need a reminder verses the many other places in which no reminder is included.
Harmony mostly, or very similar patterns and chords...

And, of course, highly chromatic/atonal/weird works! wink

I just put courtesy naturals every next bar, in order to cancel the previous one and remind the performer of that, especially since I rarely use key signatures to begin with... Naturals are there ONLY as courtesy accidentals.

And I also use them in chords where both C# and C natural can be found (in the same chord), in which case I put the natural to avoid any kind of confusion.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
76 registered (Atrys, angga888, AZNpiano, ando, 17 invisible), 1314 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75588 Members
42 Forums
156298 Topics
2295433 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tight Key ??
by moy71
Today at 01:15 AM
Learning progress
by sunnyday
Today at 01:10 AM
How old is a Ahlborn-Galanti Digital Pipe Organ Chronicler
by Chopinlover49
Yesterday at 10:55 PM
1906 Steinway K52 purchase for recording studio?
by nlive
Yesterday at 10:44 PM
Marc-André Hamelin discusses Rachmaninoff
by vers la flan
Yesterday at 09:59 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission