Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better?

That is because most talk about tone not sound. It is the tone of an instrument that attracts or repels.

The general term "sound" is found everywhere you go...when sound is not mathematically structured we commonly call it noise.

Norbert, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was simply describing the situation. There is no easy solution other than to warn people, that's why I suggested a disclaimer. If people know going in that this site serves as much as entertainment as education then the information gleaned from here may be viewed differently (i.e. not as gospel). Frankly, I don't believe we can make the advice given here better, maybe we can make the consumer better.

i'm going to assume that steve's question goes to all of the forums (pianist corner, etc.) not just pianos.

i would like to see more metadata fields associated with the user profile that vet some credentials, e.g.:

* pro or amateur musician? please describe:
* work in the industry? please describe:
* professional groups or affiliations? please describe:
* training/degrees/teachers? please describe:
* URLs to your sites (e.g. youtube, fandalism, home page or your store/business):

this metadata would go a long way in helping to qualify the weight we place on the opinions stated here, IMHO.

I understand this to be in the context of discussing piano tone. However, in a broader sense, yes, there is a great deal written on PW which is either conjured up as in "I would think that...", or hearsay as in "I read it on the internet". The problem is that this is often presented in statement form and rarely as a question or discussion point.

Some posters have very little personal experience on which to base their many opinions and points of advice. This is especially common on the technicians forum. Thankfully, most of these armchair experts don't last too long and after a few months they go elsewhere, presumably to share their wisdom on a bee keeping or hot rod forum...

If the poster includes the phrase "I would think that" or "I read it on the internet" than in most cases I'd say it's reasonably clear that it's only his own opinion or another person's opinion.

When ideas have nothing to indicate they're opinion I think it's a bigger problem either in terms of misinformation possibly harming others or just producing an arrogant sounding post. If I write "I would think that" but am really inquiring I usually add a question mark at the end of the sentence.

In general, I think it's impossible to find a way to for a reader to be sure about a poster's information/opinion. I was recently trying to find a nice restaurant in my area and every time I looked at the online reviews, even the high rated restuarants had their share of terrible reviews.

I entirely agree, in fact this is what I was expressing. Sorry to be misunderstood. I thought my post was clear on that. In fact, after re-reading it, I don't even think it needs to be edited.

Rick metnioned in a post here that he is a believer in the idea that anything, regardless of its level of effectiveness, can be improved. I share the belief.

The problem is that the concrete suggestions mentioned here do not have to do with improvement through a collective effort to improve (which can be assumed from the "we" in the question), but have to do rather with miimizing the influence of those who are seen as less desirable by those posing the suggestions.

One suggestion is to certify certain users in a way that will give more weight to what they write. Another is to exclude from participation those who do not wish to share their identity or personal email address. A third is to limit professional retailers to a fixed number of posts in which they openly advocate the brands they sell. All these suggestions are based on identifying and minimizing people who are seen by those proposing the suggesionss to be less desirable than themselves. All of these suggestions exempt the member making them from any responsibility to share the burden of realizing improvement. Interestingly enough, all of them are contrary to the structure and rules of this forum as it is presently constituted. Is this really the way to collectively improve the advice given here or is it the way to assure reading only what one wants to read?

In addition, none of these suggestions take into account the affective filter that any reader has, whether that filter is hyperactive, reasonably efficient, or more of a sieve than a screen. This is especially important since most readers who pose questions already have in their filter some sort of predisposition to the question they ask and may very well be looking for affirmation of that predisposition rather than objectivity that could get in its way. In that sense, advice that features a gratuitous and completely undeserved cheap shot against a piano brand may be music to the questioner's ears, and a balanced and reasonable response may be unappreciated. It can't be helped. It's just another part of human nature, and the people asking for advice are as human as those giving it.

I have my own personal goals for improvement. I won't share them, but I believe this is where it starts and where it should end, unless the member has been charged by the management with the task of restructuring this forum.

If we should be so fortunate as to institute a decorum that brings harmony to all the discussions ... our next stop should be the UN in New York.

Decorum is a personal choice and responsibility and there will never be complete agreement.

Seems to me, this forum has a way of balancing the issues.

It seems to me that there are two basic kinds of posters on this site: people who are involved with the piano industry and people who are not.

The people who are involved with the piano industry are mostly fully identified by name, source of their involvement, and brands of pianos they sell. Anyone who reads their advice should take all of this into account when deciding on the value of that advice. Anyone who wants to learn more about the poster's reliability can search for that poster on this site and evaluate the quality of his or her posts in the past, how other posters react to them, etc.

If the poster is involved with the piano industry and conceals that fact by posting anonymously, in violation of already existing rules, additional rules are unlikely to cause him or her to come out into the open.

The people who are not involved with the piano industry are mostly piano owners, who range from amateur incompetents (like me, I just happen to have a really good piano) to those who are close to or even at professional level. The non-industry people's advice can be readily evaluated by a visitor to the Forum in the same way that a dealer's advice can be evaluated: by looking at other posts and how fellow Forumites respond to them.

The real bottom line: this is the Internet, and the information you get can be accurate, can be reliable, and can be helpful. On the other hand, it can also be inaccurate, unreliable, and useless. Or somewhere between the two. But it is the internet. You should always assume that advice is worth what you are paying for it--although paying for it is not a reliable gauge of reliability, either!

I have to add here that if this Forum becomes too serious, and starts taking itself too seriously, it will also become boring.

At least that is what I think. And I am not even being paid two cents.

I agree with basically everything in this post.

I think the only problem is that if people are looking for important information they may not be willing to do much research on a poster's knowledge and objectivity. I think the idea behind the thread was to try and find something that would not require so much research. I don't really think there's a good solution.

I think the best solution for people who need sound and objective piano advice is to locate one tech or other industry professional who they can trust to be objective and knowledgeable. Some may be able to do this by reading the advice of some regular posters at PW and choosing one of those people while others will find such a person by using the recommendation of a person they trust. I was fortunate to find just such a person in a NYC tech who is virtually universally praised for both his knowledge and objectivity/fairness.

I must say that some very good conversation and commentary has been generated here in this thread. As has been mentioned, things can always be improved in some form or fashion, though I don’t think a consensus has been reached as to how that can be accomplished on Piano World.

Piano World is very diverse… not only are there members here who make their living in the piano industry, but there are professional artist, musicians, teachers, technicians, amateurs, novices and average, ordinary individuals alike. There are members from different countries from all over the world; people of different cultures, political ideologies, religions, or no religions at all. There are individuals from all walks of life.

Yet, as diverse as it is, we all have something in common… a love for music, a love of pianos, and a desire to share what we know (whether a little or a lot) with others and to learn more about music and pianos.

I agree with what someone else said about things here on the forum having a way of balancing themselves out in some form or fashion. I honestly do not think that out-right bad advice is often given, though it may well be given at times. I’ve been accused of giving bad advice here… I was not aware that I gave bad advice or exactly what the bad advice was, but if it was really all that bad, I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me (and most here are) would counter my bad advice with correction or at least better or counter advice. Hey, that’s how an Internet forum works, is it not?

Maybe the quality of advice given here would improve if I stopped offering advice... of course, it is worth about what it cost

Rick

Consensus - is that what we REALLY want? I don't think so.

My ideal piano could be very different from that of a teacher, and from a concert venue.

What will fit in my home (I could "fit" a 10'2" Fazioli except for the $$) won't fit into a small apartment.

The sound/tone I prefer depends on my past experiences and type of music I play - and even the volume at which I play.

The touch I prefer probably harks back to a piano I've played in the past which I really connected with.

The pianos I choose from include only those I have available to test play - which is different from what other people have available.

If, in testing that cohort of pianos, I don't like a particular piano or brand, I feel that I am in a place where I can state that I didn't like it (unless prevented by a manufacturer who will remain nameless) and the reasons for my dislike. I should also be able to express my preferences among a cohort of pianos - and reasons for them.

I guess in some ways that is my opinion, based on playing experiences - and the basis I use myself for my purchase. I don't expect the next person to feel the same way about the same pianos.

The other thing to realise is that the ACME 7'5" that I play and like is a different piano from the "identical" one in the ACME dealer's showroom in Chicago. No 2 pianos are alike, no 2 technicians will have prepared them identically. So I understand and accept it when someone else likes and purchases a piano which just didn't do it for me.

I've posted on and off on these forums through the years and over time began feeling it was big waste of time for those looking for unbiased opinions. I think the input of various industry leaders and piano dealers is invaluable and their input should be accessible, however there are many instances when an otherwise potentially informative post is hijacked by someone in the industry who has something to gain by hyping the particular brand(s) they happen to sell or are associated with in some way. I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out. (I usually look for threads populated by a particular dealer or for sure-fire amusement I usually search for a certain otherwise relatively obscure European brand that seems to the center of many fiery debates.)

That said, while I think it would be a mistake to forbid dealers and other industry leaders from posting (because honestly, so many of them mean well and they ARE very informative) but do the powers that be think it would be possible for a separate subforum in "Pianoforums" that is devoted soley to non-industry posters? Yes, it could turn into big fanboy appreciation thread but I think by eliminating posters who may have a biased opinion on the pianos they happen to represent, the poster can get a unique perspective solely from those who may have purchased a particular piano or just happen to be familiar with various makes and models. There are many non-industry posters here who have very thoughtful things to say. I especially value the input of experienced pianists and serious students of piano. Those looking for further information on a particular model can then go the general forum to get their dealer questions answered yet realize that sometimes they may need to take the advice given with a grain of salt.

IMNSHO, no matter how much we strive to qualify what's being posted by whatever means, it will still be subjective, because we're all focused on a machine that produces subjectivity; art. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I think the industry pros who *stay* here and post have the best of intentions, including their biases.

I think Frank has it just right: Industry pros simply need to be up front about who they are. Beyond that, there's too much subjectivity.

In regards to the industry pros I would have question (in *some* instances) whether or not the biases you speak of are in the best intentions for the buyer seeking information, or for those who have something to sell. That can sometimes be a problem. If you devote one subsection to non-industry pros only, that might help solve the problem- that's assuming everyone is forthright in regards to who they are.

I've read a lot of threads here and in my experience, the most overcooked partisan pitches for a brand and the most poisonous and ill-deserved put-downs of other brands come from end users, not professionals. That would include some of your own pro-Kawai posts of the past IMO. While dealers are often standing by to defend their brands and engage in subtle persuasion, they are pretty circumspect in how they go about it and almost never engage in gratuitous put-downs of competitors. In general, I'd say that piano owners get away with murder here while industry people are ticketed for jaywalking.

If your main reason to drop by these days is simply to sneer have a good laugh, there would seem to be no reason for you to want to improve the place.

Never fail to please Turandot! Everyone is more than welcome to read my pro Kawai RX posts I've made in the past, I am a fanboy of my particular piano choice - murderous I don't know? I thought I gave some pretty fair and level advice. Let others be the judge. Either way, I'm not an industry professional and I am more than happy to share my experience with my purchase which is exactly the kind of info I relied on from PW when I made that decision. Ironically, Turandot *some* of your posts was what I was referring to when I wrote about "thoughtful" and "informative" posts- wasn't looking to start a war. Heck I was going to even suggest naming it "Turandot's Corner", but then I thought that might give you a big head and I don't want to be around when that thing explodes. Anyways I've always called it the way I saw it, been more than fair to anyone who posts here and been ever so patient when I spotted the endless sales pitches. So again, my suggestion to keep things civil is just to have a separate subsection dedicated to as Turandot put it "endusers". No industry professionals allowed. Love you guys, but sometimes we just want to hear from the regular gals and guys.

I think what you get out of a forums like this greatly depends on you realizing that with very little exception everything posted is someones oppinion and skewed by their particular bias for one product or sound over another. I'm not saying that oppinions aren't valuable, espeically if you get multiple posters with similar oppinions. You have to be a critical reader, and realize that the posters preferences may not be the same as yours. There are some experts on here piano techs etc. with a great deal of experience, and when asking questions about longevity of instruments, etc. you can weight their oppinions higher, but they still are oppinions based on their observations. Quite often you will get two experts who may dissagree greatly on a subject. There are all kinds of factors that could lead to this for example a technician who lives in a humid climate, may see a problem in instruments of a certain manufacturer, that a technician who lives in a dryer climate may not see. Neither technicians oppinion of that manufacturer is wrong it is just influenced and based on what they have seen in their environment.

That, generally speaking, has not been my observation. The only time(s) I have seen someone unduly peddling their wares, it's been more of a fly-by-night, a certain Mr. Wil$on being a classic case in point.

As for the biases to which I refer, let's say I'm selling Ellenburger pianos, which happen to be made in the same Chinese factory as the Oyster Creek pianos. If someone asks me if there's a difference between the brands, I'll honestly say I don't know(if I don't), then go on to expound on the attributes of the Ellenburger. I think it's safe to assume 7 out of 10 people ("end users," what the heck) will interpret that as bias toward the Ellenburger brand, when I'm simply sharing the knowledge I have.

That's the bias - or better yet, perceived bias - I'm talking about.

Me neither, but I've been pretty consistent on this thread in observing that the concrete suggestions made on how we can improve the advice here are all based on removomg or minimizing an element of the membership that the person making the suggestion considers undesirable. I just don't think that's the way to go. It's nothing personal.

Added to that is your comment that you only check in here for an occasional laugh Does that strike you as possibly a tad condescending? And.... in those comments about one particular retailer and one particular obscure European piano brand you feel gets undue attention here, it's hard not to miss the sparks flying off an ax as it meets the grinding wheel. Would you say that those comments do not relate to a personal agenda?

Finally, I honestly can recall no example of the overt hijacking of a thread topic by a retailer who wants to turn it toward his agenda. That's not to say that retailers don't look for their posting opportunities and that there aren't many such opportunities presented, but taking advantage of an opportuity presented is not the same IMO as forcibly taking a thread off-topic.

My own impression is that topics are most often pulled off topic by non-industry members who insert themselves into threads as self-appointed thought moderators, going here, there, and everywhere to label what they don't agree with as irrelevant.