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#1977045 - 10/22/12 11:08 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19347
Loc: New York City
Limit infomercials(anything that says something positive about the pianos they sell/their dealership etc. as opposed to just giving factual information)to a certain number each year. Once that number has been reached a dealer cannot say anything about the makes they sell or their great prep or anything else in that category. Ten or fifty would be an appropriate number IMO. But some dealers have more like 1000 infomercials for each year they've posted. Unfortunately, achieving something like this would require a huge amount of moderator time.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 11:17 AM)

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#1977049 - 10/22/12 11:16 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Unworkable. Who is to decide what an infomercial is and what is not. One person's infomercial could be another’s valuable information or guidance.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1977050 - 10/22/12 11:20 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19347
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Unworkable. Who is to decide what an infomercial is and what is not. One person's infomercial could be another’s valuable information or guidance.
An infomercial is anything that's not purely factual, e.g. "this model is assembled in Japan", or is designed to advertize the pianos a dealers sells or their dealership in general. Does the dealer regularly answer questions that are in no way related to their specific pianos and services or do the huge majority of their posts talk about things that are clearly in their own best interests?


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 11:27 AM)

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#1977053 - 10/22/12 11:22 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

No one asked for a description. The question is
who determines what is an infomercial and what is not?
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1977059 - 10/22/12 11:31 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Guapo Gabacho Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 430
Loc: Rio Grande Valley of Texas
Who knows most about a certain piano, an owner or a dealer?
_________________________
'86 Baldwin SF-10

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#1977069 - 10/22/12 12:00 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: rlinkt]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: rlinkt
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
How 'bout requiring posters to use their own name and a real e-mail address?
... the identities of quite a few of the experts here are no secret.
Yes, true. The problem is that often, anonymity is a convenient shield to hide behind for those folks who seem to make a bit of a sport of sniping at industry affiliates (who display their identity). I sometimes wonder if they would be posting in the same way if their identity was revealed.... I kinda doubt it.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1977104 - 10/22/12 12:59 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Dealers are not just just dealers.

There's different commitments involved, in fact VERY different as I have learned in almost 30 years myself.

The agendas are very different so are the goals and ambitions of many owners. Same with 'salesmen' - many are very honororable believing in their products, others jump from store to store to sell "whatever" comes along.

The relationship to one's product is IMHO very important considering that some owners are active musicians or at least appreciating music lovers, others couldn't care less looking only at bottom line.

In judging to what someone has to say the products he happens to carry himself, one needs to understand perhaps a bit better where that person is actually coming from.

Interestingly enough,dealers who are actively involved in music themselves have always had much higher respect and understanding for each other other - even when competing head on.

Only when there is absolutely no interest in what one is selling [many..] and being only in business to maximize profit at all cost, gets things skewed.

Trusting that intelligent readers will notice or at least "sense" the difference.

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (10/22/12 01:44 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1977108 - 10/22/12 01:12 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2738
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Here's the problem as I see it. People come here not when they're beginning to shop for a piano but rather when they've gone out there and come to several realizations, pianos are much more expensive than they thought and the information given by dealers usually is contradictory. So they use the internet to find resources for information and they end up here. If they're smart they'll try to read 2 years worth of posts in a week, but who has time for that. This is the situation that the initial post in another thread alluded to. If someone has the time they can read a few years worth of posts and come to some conclusions about who knows what and who's a blowhard (but still potentially knowledgeable) and who offers opinion masquerading as fact and who is just an irascible curmudgeon.

Regarding opinion masquerading as fact, you'd think differentiating one from the other would be easy. Facts usually regard features, the Kawai RX series has the Millennium III action which uses carbon composite materials. That's a fact, but then equating that to mean more responsive and expressive is an opinion. It may be an educated opinion, but it's still an opinion. Comparative judgments, such as Estonia is a better value than Steinway is certainly an opinion, but is subject to the relative abilities of the person making the judgment and the particular pianos in question. It feels good to say it if that's what you truly believe, but is it really helpful to anyone else.

Is there a way to improve this situation? The only thing I can think of would be a disclaimer that states that the opinions offered are those of their author and not the site. Individuals inquiring here for information will receive many opinions, some masquerading as fact. There will often be conflicting opinions. Individuals should carefully evaluate all information on this site before using it to make a purchase decision. This site is not responsible for buyer's remorse, but for piano aficionados can be very entertaining to read. Regular readers will over time become more knowledgeable and will be in a better position to shop for a piano. Expect this educational process to take at least 6 months. Enjoy your reading and we welcome you to this wild and crazy community.


Edited by Steve Chandler (10/22/12 01:15 PM)

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#1977119 - 10/22/12 01:36 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Steve:

I agree with much of what you have said but discussing musical intruments such as pianos only based on "facts" about their hardware data, leaves out the IMHO the most important equation: its 'sound'

It's like discussing a city's restaurants by recepies used - not how their food actually tastes.

Sound, as we all know, is highly subjective/personal and cannot always be explained in terms of what goes into a piano.

The problem is that we all can agree or disagree on sound, but many here partaking in the various discussions have no first hand experience regarding the makes and models under discussion.

To at least offer an educated guess, let alone 'opinion'

Instead they condemn anything going beyong molucelar data and "facts" as if this in itself amounts to an understanding of things.

It reminds me on famous German author Karl May who wrote hundres of volumes about America.

Except he had never even set foot on the continent - nor was he a travelor during his lifetime...

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (10/22/12 01:59 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1977128 - 10/22/12 02:00 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19347
Loc: New York City
I cannot recall even one post at PW where any poster discussed their personal opinion about the sound of a piano but the poster had no experience with the piano. In fact, to give one's opinion without having heard the piano is logically impossible unless one thinks the writer is just making things up.

Of course, giving one's opinion about a piano's tone utterly different from saying that a dealer is giving an infomercial. One only has to read a dealer's post to be able to have an opinion about that. The specific piano mentioned or it's tone is completely irrelevant to that topic.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 02:10 PM)

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#1977129 - 10/22/12 02:03 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4190
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

That is because most talk about tone not sound. It is the tone of an instrument that attracts or repels.

The general term "sound" is found everywhere you go...when sound is not mathematically structured we commonly call it noise.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1977142 - 10/22/12 02:50 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Norbert]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2738
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Norbert

I agree with much of what you have said but discussing musical intruments such as pianos only based on "facts" about their hardware data, leaves out the IMHO the most important equation: its 'sound'

It's like discussing a city's restaurants by recepies used - not how their food actually tastes.

Norbert, I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was simply describing the situation. There is no easy solution other than to warn people, that's why I suggested a disclaimer. If people know going in that this site serves as much as entertainment as education then the information gleaned from here may be viewed differently (i.e. not as gospel). Frankly, I don't believe we can make the advice given here better, maybe we can make the consumer better.

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#1977148 - 10/22/12 03:14 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1114
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
I think that is the more important topic.


i'm going to assume that steve's question goes to all of the forums (pianist corner, etc.) not just pianos.

i would like to see more metadata fields associated with the user profile that vet some credentials, e.g.:

* pro or amateur musician? please describe:
* work in the industry? please describe:
* professional groups or affiliations? please describe:
* training/degrees/teachers? please describe:
* URLs to your sites (e.g. youtube, fandalism, home page or your store/business):

this metadata would go a long way in helping to qualify the weight we place on the opinions stated here, IMHO.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1977156 - 10/22/12 03:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: pianoloverus]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
.. In fact, to give one's opinion without having heard the piano is logically impossible unless one thinks the writer is just making things up....
I understand this to be in the context of discussing piano tone. However, in a broader sense, yes, there is a great deal written on PW which is either conjured up as in "I would think that...", or hearsay as in "I read it on the internet". The problem is that this is often presented in statement form and rarely as a question or discussion point.

Some posters have very little personal experience on which to base their many opinions and points of advice. This is especially common on the technicians forum. Thankfully, most of these armchair experts don't last too long and after a few months they go elsewhere, presumably to share their wisdom on a bee keeping or hot rod forum...
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1977188 - 10/22/12 04:45 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19347
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Supply
I understand this to be in the context of discussing piano tone. However, in a broader sense, yes, there is a great deal written on PW which is either conjured up as in "I would think that...", or hearsay as in "I read it on the internet". The problem is that this is often presented in statement form and rarely as a question or discussion point.
If the poster includes the phrase "I would think that" or "I read it on the internet" than in most cases I'd say it's reasonably clear that it's only his own opinion or another person's opinion.

When ideas have nothing to indicate they're opinion I think it's a bigger problem either in terms of misinformation possibly harming others or just producing an arrogant sounding post. If I write "I would think that" but am really inquiring I usually add a question mark at the end of the sentence.

In general, I think it's impossible to find a way to for a reader to be sure about a poster's information/opinion. I was recently trying to find a nice restaurant in my area and every time I looked at the online reviews, even the high rated restuarants had their share of terrible reviews.

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#1977205 - 10/22/12 05:32 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I entirely agree, in fact this is what I was expressing. Sorry to be misunderstood. I thought my post was clear on that. In fact, after re-reading it, I don't even think it needs to be edited.
Quote:
The problem is that this [opinion or hearsay] is often presented in statement form and rarely as a question or discussion point.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1977233 - 10/22/12 06:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7192
Loc: torrance, CA
Rick metnioned in a post here that he is a believer in the idea that anything, regardless of its level of effectiveness, can be improved. I share the belief.

The problem is that the concrete suggestions mentioned here do not have to do with improvement through a collective effort to improve (which can be assumed from the "we" in the question), but have to do rather with miimizing the influence of those who are seen as less desirable by those posing the suggestions.

One suggestion is to certify certain users in a way that will give more weight to what they write. Another is to exclude from participation those who do not wish to share their identity or personal email address. A third is to limit professional retailers to a fixed number of posts in which they openly advocate the brands they sell. All these suggestions are based on identifying and minimizing people who are seen by those proposing the suggesionss to be less desirable than themselves. All of these suggestions exempt the member making them from any responsibility to share the burden of realizing improvement. Interestingly enough, all of them are contrary to the structure and rules of this forum as it is presently constituted. Is this really the way to collectively improve the advice given here or is it the way to assure reading only what one wants to read?

In addition, none of these suggestions take into account the affective filter that any reader has, whether that filter is hyperactive, reasonably efficient, or more of a sieve than a screen. This is especially important since most readers who pose questions already have in their filter some sort of predisposition to the question they ask and may very well be looking for affirmation of that predisposition rather than objectivity that could get in its way. In that sense, advice that features a gratuitous and completely undeserved cheap shot against a piano brand may be music to the questioner's ears, and a balanced and reasonable response may be unappreciated. It can't be helped. It's just another part of human nature, and the people asking for advice are as human as those giving it.

I have my own personal goals for improvement. I won't share them, but I believe this is where it starts and where it should end, unless the member has been charged by the management with the task of restructuring this forum.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1977253 - 10/22/12 07:25 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2339
Loc: Lowell MA
If we should be so fortunate as to institute a decorum that brings harmony to all the discussions ... our next stop should be the UN in New York.

Decorum is a personal choice and responsibility and there will never be complete agreement.

Seems to me, this forum has a way of balancing the issues.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
facebook.com/E. J. Buck & Sons Performances

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#1977289 - 10/22/12 09:30 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Rank Piano Amateur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/07
Posts: 1775
It seems to me that there are two basic kinds of posters on this site: people who are involved with the piano industry and people who are not.

The people who are involved with the piano industry are mostly fully identified by name, source of their involvement, and brands of pianos they sell. Anyone who reads their advice should take all of this into account when deciding on the value of that advice. Anyone who wants to learn more about the poster's reliability can search for that poster on this site and evaluate the quality of his or her posts in the past, how other posters react to them, etc.

If the poster is involved with the piano industry and conceals that fact by posting anonymously, in violation of already existing rules, additional rules are unlikely to cause him or her to come out into the open.

The people who are not involved with the piano industry are mostly piano owners, who range from amateur incompetents (like me, I just happen to have a really good piano) to those who are close to or even at professional level. The non-industry people's advice can be readily evaluated by a visitor to the Forum in the same way that a dealer's advice can be evaluated: by looking at other posts and how fellow Forumites respond to them.

The real bottom line: this is the Internet, and the information you get can be accurate, can be reliable, and can be helpful. On the other hand, it can also be inaccurate, unreliable, and useless. Or somewhere between the two. But it is the internet. You should always assume that advice is worth what you are paying for it--although paying for it is not a reliable gauge of reliability, either!

I have to add here that if this Forum becomes too serious, and starts taking itself too seriously, it will also become boring.

At least that is what I think. And I am not even being paid two cents.

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#1977306 - 10/22/12 10:29 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Rank Piano Amateur]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19347
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Rank Piano Amateur
It seems to me that there are two basic kinds of posters on this site: people who are involved with the piano industry and people who are not.

The people who are involved with the piano industry are mostly fully identified by name, source of their involvement, and brands of pianos they sell. Anyone who reads their advice should take all of this into account when deciding on the value of that advice. Anyone who wants to learn more about the poster's reliability can search for that poster on this site and evaluate the quality of his or her posts in the past, how other posters react to them, etc.

If the poster is involved with the piano industry and conceals that fact by posting anonymously, in violation of already existing rules, additional rules are unlikely to cause him or her to come out into the open.

The people who are not involved with the piano industry are mostly piano owners, who range from amateur incompetents (like me, I just happen to have a really good piano) to those who are close to or even at professional level. The non-industry people's advice can be readily evaluated by a visitor to the Forum in the same way that a dealer's advice can be evaluated: by looking at other posts and how fellow Forumites respond to them.

The real bottom line: this is the Internet, and the information you get can be accurate, can be reliable, and can be helpful. On the other hand, it can also be inaccurate, unreliable, and useless. Or somewhere between the two. But it is the internet. You should always assume that advice is worth what you are paying for it--although paying for it is not a reliable gauge of reliability, either!

I have to add here that if this Forum becomes too serious, and starts taking itself too seriously, it will also become boring.

At least that is what I think. And I am not even being paid two cents.
I agree with basically everything in this post.

I think the only problem is that if people are looking for important information they may not be willing to do much research on a poster's knowledge and objectivity. I think the idea behind the thread was to try and find something that would not require so much research. I don't really think there's a good solution.

I think the best solution for people who need sound and objective piano advice is to locate one tech or other industry professional who they can trust to be objective and knowledgeable. Some may be able to do this by reading the advice of some regular posters at PW and choosing one of those people while others will find such a person by using the recommendation of a person they trust. I was fortunate to find just such a person in a NYC tech who is virtually universally praised for both his knowledge and objectivity/fairness.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/22/12 10:31 PM)

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#1977321 - 10/22/12 11:13 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8534
Loc: Georgia, USA
I must say that some very good conversation and commentary has been generated here in this thread. As has been mentioned, things can always be improved in some form or fashion, though I don’t think a consensus has been reached as to how that can be accomplished on Piano World.

Piano World is very diverse… not only are there members here who make their living in the piano industry, but there are professional artist, musicians, teachers, technicians, amateurs, novices and average, ordinary individuals alike. There are members from different countries from all over the world; people of different cultures, political ideologies, religions, or no religions at all. There are individuals from all walks of life.

Yet, as diverse as it is, we all have something in common… a love for music, a love of pianos, and a desire to share what we know (whether a little or a lot) with others and to learn more about music and pianos.

I agree with what someone else said about things here on the forum having a way of balancing themselves out in some form or fashion. I honestly do not think that out-right bad advice is often given, though it may well be given at times. I’ve been accused of giving bad advice here… I was not aware that I gave bad advice or exactly what the bad advice was, but if it was really all that bad, I’m sure someone more knowledgeable than me (and most here are) would counter my bad advice with correction or at least better or counter advice. Hey, that’s how an Internet forum works, is it not?

Maybe the quality of advice given here would improve if I stopped offering advice... of course, it is worth about what it cost smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1977479 - 10/23/12 08:36 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 428
Loc: Australia
Consensus - is that what we REALLY want? I don't think so.

My ideal piano could be very different from that of a teacher, and from a concert venue.

What will fit in my home (I could "fit" a 10'2" Fazioli except for the $$) won't fit into a small apartment.

The sound/tone I prefer depends on my past experiences and type of music I play - and even the volume at which I play.

The touch I prefer probably harks back to a piano I've played in the past which I really connected with.

The pianos I choose from include only those I have available to test play - which is different from what other people have available.

If, in testing that cohort of pianos, I don't like a particular piano or brand, I feel that I am in a place where I can state that I didn't like it (unless prevented by a manufacturer who will remain nameless) and the reasons for my dislike. I should also be able to express my preferences among a cohort of pianos - and reasons for them.

I guess in some ways that is my opinion, based on playing experiences - and the basis I use myself for my purchase. I don't expect the next person to feel the same way about the same pianos.

The other thing to realise is that the ACME 7'5" that I play and like is a different piano from the "identical" one in the ACME dealer's showroom in Chicago. No 2 pianos are alike, no 2 technicians will have prepared them identically. So I understand and accept it when someone else likes and purchases a piano which just didn't do it for me.
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1977577 - 10/23/12 01:04 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Jethro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 236
I've posted on and off on these forums through the years and over time began feeling it was big waste of time for those looking for unbiased opinions. I think the input of various industry leaders and piano dealers is invaluable and their input should be accessible, however there are many instances when an otherwise potentially informative post is hijacked by someone in the industry who has something to gain by hyping the particular brand(s) they happen to sell or are associated with in some way. I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out. (I usually look for threads populated by a particular dealer or for sure-fire amusement I usually search for a certain otherwise relatively obscure European brand that seems to the center of many fiery debates.)

That said, while I think it would be a mistake to forbid dealers and other industry leaders from posting (because honestly, so many of them mean well and they ARE very informative) but do the powers that be think it would be possible for a separate subforum in "Pianoforums" that is devoted soley to non-industry posters? Yes, it could turn into big fanboy appreciation thread but I think by eliminating posters who may have a biased opinion on the pianos they happen to represent, the poster can get a unique perspective solely from those who may have purchased a particular piano or just happen to be familiar with various makes and models. There are many non-industry posters here who have very thoughtful things to say. I especially value the input of experienced pianists and serious students of piano. Those looking for further information on a particular model can then go the general forum to get their dealer questions answered yet realize that sometimes they may need to take the advice given with a grain of salt.
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Kawai RX-2

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#1977585 - 10/23/12 01:30 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
IMNSHO, no matter how much we strive to qualify what's being posted by whatever means, it will still be subjective, because we're all focused on a machine that produces subjectivity; art. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I think the industry pros who *stay* here and post have the best of intentions, including their biases.

I think Frank has it just right: Industry pros simply need to be up front about who they are. Beyond that, there's too much subjectivity.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1977636 - 10/23/12 04:04 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: OperaTenor]
Jethro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 236
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
IMNSHO, no matter how much we strive to qualify what's being posted by whatever means, it will still be subjective, because we're all focused on a machine that produces subjectivity; art. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I think the industry pros who *stay* here and post have the best of intentions, including their biases.

I think Frank has it just right: Industry pros simply need to be up front about who they are. Beyond that, there's too much subjectivity.





In regards to the industry pros I would have question (in *some* instances) whether or not the biases you speak of are in the best intentions for the buyer seeking information, or for those who have something to sell. That can sometimes be a problem. If you devote one subsection to non-industry pros only, that might help solve the problem- that's assuming everyone is forthright in regards to who they are.
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Kawai RX-2

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#1977662 - 10/23/12 05:43 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7192
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Jethro
I however there are many instances when an otherwise potentially informative post is hijacked by someone in the industry who has something to gain by hyping the particular brand(s) they happen to sell or are associated with in some way. I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out. (I usually look for threads populated by a particular dealer or for sure-fire amusement I usually search for a certain otherwise relatively obscure European brand that seems to the center


I've read a lot of threads here and in my experience, the most overcooked partisan pitches for a brand and the most poisonous and ill-deserved put-downs of other brands come from end users, not professionals. That would include some of your own pro-Kawai posts of the past IMO. While dealers are often standing by to defend their brands and engage in subtle persuasion, they are pretty circumspect in how they go about it and almost never engage in gratuitous put-downs of competitors. In general, I'd say that piano owners get away with murder here while industry people are ticketed for jaywalking.

If your main reason to drop by these days is simply to sneer have a good laugh, there would seem to be no reason for you to want to improve the place.
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The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1977691 - 10/23/12 07:19 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: turandot]
Jethro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 236
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Jethro
I however there are many instances when an otherwise potentially informative post is hijacked by someone in the industry who has something to gain by hyping the particular brand(s) they happen to sell or are associated with in some way. I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out. (I usually look for threads populated by a particular dealer or for sure-fire amusement I usually search for a certain otherwise relatively obscure European brand that seems to the center


I've read a lot of thread here and in my experience, the most ovwercooked partisan pitches for a brand and the most poisonous and ill-deserved put-downs of other brands come from end users, not professionals. That would include some of your own pro-Kawai posts of the past IMO. While dealers are often standing by to defend their brands and engage in subtle persuasion, they are pretty circumspect in how they go about it and almost never engage in gratuitous put-downs of competitors. In general, I'd say that piano owners get away with murder here while industry people are ticketed for jaywalking.

If your main reason to drop by these days is simply to sneer have a good laugh, there would seem to be no reason for you to want to improve the place.


Never fail to please Turandot! Everyone is more than welcome to read my pro Kawai RX posts I've made in the past, I am a fanboy of my particular piano choice - murderous I don't know? I thought I gave some pretty fair and level advice. Let others be the judge. Either way, I'm not an industry professional and I am more than happy to share my experience with my purchase which is exactly the kind of info I relied on from PW when I made that decision. Ironically, Turandot *some* of your posts was what I was referring to when I wrote about "thoughtful" and "informative" posts- wasn't looking to start a war. Heck I was going to even suggest naming it "Turandot's Corner", but then I thought that might give you a big head and I don't want to be around when that thing explodes. smile Anyways I've always called it the way I saw it, been more than fair to anyone who posts here and been ever so patient when I spotted the endless sales pitches. So again, my suggestion to keep things civil is just to have a separate subsection dedicated to as Turandot put it "endusers". No industry professionals allowed. Love you guys, but sometimes we just want to hear from the regular gals and guys.
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Kawai RX-2

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#1977747 - 10/23/12 09:27 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
RayE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 163
Loc: Rochester, NY, USA
I think what you get out of a forums like this greatly depends on you realizing that with very little exception everything posted is someones oppinion and skewed by their particular bias for one product or sound over another. I'm not saying that oppinions aren't valuable, espeically if you get multiple posters with similar oppinions. You have to be a critical reader, and realize that the posters preferences may not be the same as yours. There are some experts on here piano techs etc. with a great deal of experience, and when asking questions about longevity of instruments, etc. you can weight their oppinions higher, but they still are oppinions based on their observations. Quite often you will get two experts who may dissagree greatly on a subject. There are all kinds of factors that could lead to this for example a technician who lives in a humid climate, may see a problem in instruments of a certain manufacturer, that a technician who lives in a dryer climate may not see. Neither technicians oppinion of that manufacturer is wrong it is just influenced and based on what they have seen in their environment.


Edited by RayE (10/23/12 09:30 PM)
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#1977779 - 10/23/12 10:50 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Jethro
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
IMNSHO, no matter how much we strive to qualify what's being posted by whatever means, it will still be subjective, because we're all focused on a machine that produces subjectivity; art. To me, that's the beauty of it.

I think the industry pros who *stay* here and post have the best of intentions, including their biases.

I think Frank has it just right: Industry pros simply need to be up front about who they are. Beyond that, there's too much subjectivity.





In regards to the industry pros I would have question (in *some* instances) whether or not the biases you speak of are in the best intentions for the buyer seeking information, or for those who have something to sell. That can sometimes be a problem. If you devote one subsection to non-industry pros only, that might help solve the problem- that's assuming everyone is forthright in regards to who they are.


That, generally speaking, has not been my observation. The only time(s) I have seen someone unduly peddling their wares, it's been more of a fly-by-night, a certain Mr. Wil$on being a classic case in point.

As for the biases to which I refer, let's say I'm selling Ellenburger pianos, which happen to be made in the same Chinese factory as the Oyster Creek pianos. If someone asks me if there's a difference between the brands, I'll honestly say I don't know(if I don't), then go on to expound on the attributes of the Ellenburger. I think it's safe to assume 7 out of 10 people ("end users," what the heck) will interpret that as bias toward the Ellenburger brand, when I'm simply sharing the knowledge I have.

That's the bias - or better yet, perceived bias - I'm talking about.



Edited by OperaTenor (10/23/12 10:58 PM)
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1977908 - 10/24/12 08:48 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7192
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Jethro
[ wasn't looking to start a war.


Me neither, but I've been pretty consistent on this thread in observing that the concrete suggestions made on how we can improve the advice here are all based on removomg or minimizing an element of the membership that the person making the suggestion considers undesirable. I just don't think that's the way to go. It's nothing personal.

Added to that is your comment that you only check in here for an occasional laugh Does that strike you as possibly a tad condescending? And.... in those comments about one particular retailer and one particular obscure European piano brand you feel gets undue attention here, it's hard not to miss the sparks flying off an ax as it meets the grinding wheel. Would you say that those comments do not relate to a personal agenda?

Finally, I honestly can recall no example of the overt hijacking of a thread topic by a retailer who wants to turn it toward his agenda. That's not to say that retailers don't look for their posting opportunities and that there aren't many such opportunities presented, but taking advantage of an opportuity presented is not the same IMO as forcibly taking a thread off-topic.

My own impression is that topics are most often pulled off topic by non-industry members who insert themselves into threads as self-appointed thought moderators, going here, there, and everywhere to label what they don't agree with as irrelevant.
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