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Page 19 of 22 < 1 2 ... 17 18 19 20 21 22 >
Topic Options
#1976976 - 10/22/12 03:50 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Casio PX 350, does the PX-350 offer a 'Damper Hold' setting, allowing you to specify how the damper pedal affects string and organ sounds?

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1976979 - 10/22/12 04:22 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Casio PX 350]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this frown

But with the 350, on the same layered voice setting, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, as long as the sustain is pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.


@Casio PX 350,

Sorry to hear of your issue, however, I don't particularly like having to be the bearer of additional bad news:

Sounds like you should report this sustain issue directly to Casio, as it is another instance of a problem that may have been overlooked and not addressed at R&D, before the pianos were released.

I had both a Casio PX-130 / Casio AP-620 that had a sustain pedal resonance issue where the sustain pedal (and, "sounds") would stick at various random times, and, that is one reason I switched my ownership to a Kawai EP3 / Kawai CA95, instead. This issue (to my knowledge) has still not been addressed or fixed with the three Casio's I had previously owned.

It's just my opinion, but I would stay away from (or, not purchase) a Casio until I knew for sure that these issues have been resolved. There are plenty of other choices to consider when buying a digital for under $1,000. And, you will do better to spend more than $1K to get a really nice piano.

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#1976981 - 10/22/12 04:48 AM Re: Difference? [Re: xorbe]
SoftFloor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: xorbe
That's kinda like when I found out I could buy slightly shrunken acoustic guitars -- though it affects the sound a little due to shorter strings.


Yes, exactly. Especially the 640mm string length is becoming increasingly popular standard. But there are even smaller sizes available.

And nobody can really measure the potential popularity of 7/8 or 15/16 piano key sizes. Because there are no such digital pianos available at affordable prices, only $20,000 keyboards for $100,000 grands, and $10,000 uprights, as far as I know.

But Kawai James keeps insisting that there would not be significant enough demand for the major digital piano manufacturers to get involved. I think he is completely wrong.
80% of women and 20% of men are in the category with clearly hands too small for the current discriminatory piano key size.
But even though I myself, according to Steinbuhler scale, have above average hand (over 24 cm, or over 9.5") I still desperately need that reduced size keyboard!

So I would not be surprised if today's "normal" size becomes history.

But there is a catch 22, unfortunately, that needs to be broken.

The piano manufacturers don't want to make pianos for everybody, they continue making them only for the small market of freaks with huge hands smile
They are not interested in making money, it seems.

Kawai James, remember, you (I mean, the evil piano manufacturers) are denying the possibility of playing piano to the majority of people.
Your potential market is not only among the pianists who would switch to smaller keyboards, but also the huge population until now not allowed by you to play piano.
The potential market is enormous !!!




Edited by SoftFloor (10/22/12 06:01 AM)

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#1976987 - 10/22/12 06:12 AM Re: Difference? [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, I don't believe there is any problem with Casio PX 350's erm...Casio PX-350. Moreover, the sustain pedal issue that you claim affected your previous Casio instruments is most likely unrelated.

Originally Posted By: pv88
You can contact Mike Martin directly, here:

snip



Unless Mike wishes for his work email address/telephone number to be posted on a public forum, may I politely suggest you edit your post to remove his information.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1976988 - 10/22/12 06:16 AM Re: Difference? [Re: SoftFloor]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
The potential market is enormous !!!


I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 1/16 of the size of the standard digital piano market.

However, by all means, please feel free to submit your suggestion for smaller keys to Kawai via the official contact methods.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1976989 - 10/22/12 06:42 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kawai James]
SoftFloor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
The potential market is enormous !!!


I'd hazard a guess that it's less than 1/16 of the size of the standard digital piano market.

However, by all means, please feel free to submit your suggestion for smaller keys to Kawai via the official contact methods.



Yes, it certainly has to be done.
Another way, possibly, is to contact lawmakers, our representatives.

There could be a law against discrimination forcing piano makers to make pianos suitable also for the majority of people.
Lack of such pianos is simply cruel.

BTW, Kawai James, are your plastic RH-II keys on ES7 hollow, empty inside?
I mean, could I remove the right corners of the keys with some file? Just from the top of the key. That would allow to reach the most difficult 10ths easier but should not affect playing those keys, I think. A substitute for smaller keys.

This way, just the principle here, I think it is clear what I mean :

instead of:

I....I
I....I
I__I

make

I...I
I...I
I_/

If, for example, E key is "improved" this way, then it is easier to reach C#-F

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#1976994 - 10/22/12 07:16 AM Re: Difference? [Re: SoftFloor]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
I mean, could I remove the right corners of the keys with some file?


I expect you probably could, yes.

However I would strongly recommend against doing so, because you'd ruin a perfectly good keyboard.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1976999 - 10/22/12 07:35 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kawai James]
SoftFloor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 72
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
I mean, could I remove the right corners of the keys with some file?


I expect you probably could, yes.

However I would strongly recommend against doing so, because you'd ruin a perfectly good keyboard.



I am hoping not to ruin it.
Just the opposite. To make it usable without pain.

I have two concerns, though:

1. That I might open up a hole in a corner of the key if it is hollow and pretty thin.

2. That some small particles might drop into the keyboard and get into the mechanism or on the sensors.
To avoid that it would be best to remove the keys first before filing them, but I don't know if it is easy to do so.

Anyway, at this point I am only thinking about buying ES7 (or PX-350 - depending on which action is better) and then filing the keys.

Maybe I will try this improvement on PX-330 first to see if it works.

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#1977001 - 10/22/12 07:46 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
You will void your warranty I suppose. Are there not some small keys keyboards on the market today ? Probably not the same keybed quality, but nevertheless.

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#1977013 - 10/22/12 08:40 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Casio PX 350]
jmarch Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/26/12
Posts: 16
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Any way to let the notes decay naturally?


The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.


Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.


But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.


Thank you for being able to articulate what I was unable to.

The action on this thing is incredible for its price point--it really is much better than the PX-130 and pretty much, in my opinion, anything else less than over twice its price that I've tried. However, the layer thing just kills it for me.

I understand that it's a digital piano first and that the other sounds are just icing, gravy, or whatever expression you'd like to use; however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

I really wanted to like this board. Really, really. I held off on buying anything for 3 months so that I could give this one a go, but I think I might have to buy something else now. Maybe the issue is my inexperience or that I had expectations that were too high (or maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.

In either case, Casio should be super, super proud of what they've accomplished. The action on this thing is just fantastic. And that they can put that kind of action in a board at that price and that weight, well, they should be inspiring some real fear in their pricier competition.

A big Kudos to Casio regardless if I can use their board or not. : )

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#1977021 - 10/22/12 09:12 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Casio PX 350]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3215
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
so it's not a matter of pedal technique. Its either you pedal or you don't. frown

It can still be a matter of pedal technique, it sounds like you probably need to release and re-press the pedal more often.

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
If you watch this vid of mike playing the px130, he creates a nice layered sound with piano and strings with some pedaling at 2.13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E90JGRaFkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

There's a good example. I'd say he's re-pedaling after every 2 beats.. which is also what I'd call proper pedaling technique for the passage, regardless of whether or not there were layered strings, so again, it comes down to understanding how to use the pedal. I'm pretty sure the PX-130 strings behaved just as they do on the PX-350.

Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
this is the first digital piano I came across with this "functionality"

I only came across the behavior you prefer once, and thought it was a bad idea. ;-)

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#1977029 - 10/22/12 09:55 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
SoftFloor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 72
You know what?

I just inspected the keys of my PX-330 - they became quite loose and move sideways a lot now. When the keyboard was new they did not move at all. But, obviously, unconsciously I was squeezing the keys together all the time with great force and they had to give.
I don't know if I damaged the keyboard, but now, for example, white-white 10th became shorter by 3-4 mm: 4 gaps between keys, each about 1 mm, disappear completely when playing a tenth. Of the remaining 3 in the middle, two outer ones are also somewhat reduced.
Unfortunately, the most difficult black-white tenths do not allow to squeeze the keys on the black side at all and not so much on the white side as well - exactly where the biggest squeeze is needed...

All those problems because cruel piano makers won't make keyboards for regular people. Only for selected few.
A mass-market keyboard is badly needed. I think Casio could be that company. It already is making stuff for regular people, like non-Rolex watches, etc. Mike?





Edited by SoftFloor (10/22/12 09:58 AM)

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#1977038 - 10/22/12 10:27 AM Re: Difference? [Re: SoftFloor]
Aidan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
You know what? <snippage...> All those problems because cruel piano makers won't make keyboards for regular people. Only for selected few.


You know what? We get your beef. It's just that most of us don't agree with it. The idea that MI manufacturers are deliberately, maliciously excluding people from learning the piano is ludicrous. I started learning the piano at five and not only was it some time before I could play an octave, I couldn't reach the pedals before I was about eight. Should I have complained that my piano manufacturer hadn't thought to have an adjustable lyre?

There are many players out there who have overcome many physical disadvantages to become good or even great players...

_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1977062 - 10/22/12 11:35 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1754
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
The outpatients are out in force today.
_________________________


"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1977072 - 10/22/12 12:04 PM Re: Difference? [Re: SoftFloor]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3215
SoftFloor, you might want to look at the Korg MicroPiano.

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#1977075 - 10/22/12 12:09 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
Aidan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
Or videos of Michel Petrucciani smile
_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1977079 - 10/22/12 12:19 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kawai James]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: Kawai James


Unless Mike wishes for his work email address/telephone number to be posted on a public forum, may I politely suggest you edit your post to remove his information.

Kind regards,
James
x


Thanks James. My cell phone posted on a forum. help
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Casio America

Casio Music Forums
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#1977083 - 10/22/12 12:32 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Mike_Martin]
Aidan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
It's ok Mike, I made a note to call you about 3am Eastern - presume that's all right <evil grin>
_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1977092 - 10/22/12 12:40 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Casio PX 350]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: Casio PX 350
Any way to let the notes decay naturally?


The main thing I would do is tweak the balance of the layered tones and adjust my pedaling technique.

The decay on the piano patch varies like a real piano does with better sustain the lower you go. The decaying strings patch decays the same at all registers. This is why the string layer almost can't be heard in the bass but is so much more pronounced in the treble and overwhelming in the high treble. I think balance adjustments and a different pedal technique will really help.


Thanks for your suggestion, actually the first thing I did was to adjust the layer volume, but as typed above , the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices.

So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

I've owned 2 Yamahas, tested some Korgs and they never had this issue. It might be my limited experience with digital pianos, but this its the first time I came across this frown

If you watch this vid of mike playing the px130, he creates a nice layered sound with piano and strings with some pedaling at 2.13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E90JGRaFkY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

But with the 350, the first 9 notes of his famous lick would sound like 9 notes on the strings pressed together, and overshadowing the piano, add long as the sustain its pressed, with no distinction between each individual notes.


The piano and strings on the PX-350, respond similarly to the example of the PX-130 in the video link above...although both the string and piano sounds are new.
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Casio America

Casio Music Forums
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#1977093 - 10/22/12 12:41 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Aidan]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: Aidan
It's ok Mike, I made a note to call you about 3am Eastern - presume that's all right <evil grin>


Yes, I was actually up at that time this morning.
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Casio America

Casio Music Forums
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#1977109 - 10/22/12 01:12 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Mike_Martin]
Aidan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: Aidan
It's ok Mike, I made a note to call you about 3am Eastern - presume that's all right <evil grin>


Yes, I was actually up at that time this morning.


Yay! Casio, give this guy a pay rise
_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1977154 - 10/22/12 03:25 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
Marvin Eight Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/30/12
Posts: 24
Mike, I hope you don't mind that I posted your phone info all over my new "Casio Complaints" Facebook page. laugh

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#1977210 - 10/22/12 05:37 PM Re: Difference? [Re: SoftFloor]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys?
It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.
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#1977246 - 10/22/12 07:09 PM Re: Difference? [Re: dewster]
ONfrank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: SoftFloor
When you guys are going to produce digital pianos with 7/8 and 15/16 size keys?
It is mind boggling that nobody does that.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. None of my wife's students are men - the only males are children, with the rest female children, teens, and women. They could likely all benefit from narrower keys.

Then again the QWERTY keyboard was designed to be as sub-optimal as possible, and despite some efforts (DVORAK) we all continue to struggle on them. And the Intel processor standard is pretty much a dog. Never underestimate the power of an established standard.


Interesting tangent here. I for one would welcome smaller keys. I can barely stretch my thumb and pinky from C to C. Anything more is out of reach, literally.

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#1977257 - 10/22/12 07:56 PM Re: Difference? [Re: ONfrank]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ONfrank
Interesting tangent here. I for one would welcome smaller keys. I can barely stretch my thumb and pinky from C to C. Anything more is out of reach, literally.

Narrower keys could also give you a more portable DP. 88 keys in the same width as 77, that's almost a whole octave's worth of length gone.
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#1977264 - 10/22/12 08:12 PM Re: Difference? [Re: anotherscott]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4343
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
And young kids and small women have successfully learned to play on standard size pianos, probably for centuries.

This is an interesting article, it says the modern key size began around 1880, before that keys were smaller width.

It links to this page with a great quote:

In my lectures I have been giving at universities I say one statement that causes a shock of awareness that allows people to be able to see this issue as I do. I pick from the audience a female pianist who agrees that she has an average female hand-- not really small and not unusually large for a female.

I then take her hand and show it to the class and say, "If Vladimir Horowitz had been born with this hand, you would have never heard of him."
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1977269 - 10/22/12 08:27 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1969
Loc: Philadelphia area
Can you change the split point on the 350?

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#1977270 - 10/22/12 08:29 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Dave B]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Can you change the split point on the 350?


Yes and you can store your settings as registrations.
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Casio America

Casio Music Forums
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#1977283 - 10/22/12 09:03 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Mike_Martin]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 623
Looks like my P105 and PX350 are arriving Wed in time for my 40th birthday on Thursday
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#1977303 - 10/22/12 10:23 PM Re: Difference? [Re: jmarch]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: jmarch
... the problem is with the infinite sustain, regardless if you have held on the keys or let it go. One touch of any voice except piano or guitar, with the pedal held on will result in overlapping voices. So I can't pretty much layer anything unless I don't pedal at all.

... however, the layering function in its current state, I'm really not sure it's even usable. Everything sounds like a muddy mess due to the 'infinite sustain' of strings and other voices. And you can adjust the 'layer balance' so that it favors the piano instead of the strings; but even with it set the whole way toward piano, you still hear the strings and their sustain is still too loud.

... maybe there's just some setting I've missed after poring over the manual three times), but I still just can't use this board as much as I really, really wanted to.


Sounds to me like the player/owner can try all sorts of settings in an attempt to alleviate the issue, although no answer is to be found.

Is this the player's fault, or, Casio's?

Who is going to "fix" these issues?

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