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#1977924 - 10/24/12 09:17 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Is PW better yet? wink Jk....
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Piano Technicians Guild
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#1978004 - 10/24/12 12:35 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: turandot]
Jethro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 235
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Jethro
[ wasn't looking to start a war.


Me neither, but I've been pretty consistent on this thread in observing that the concrete suggestions made on how we can improve the advice here are all based on removomg or minimizing an element of the membership that the person making the suggestion considers undesirable. I just don't think that's the way to go. It's nothing personal.

Added to that is your comment that you only check in here for an occasional laugh Does that strike you as possibly a tad condescending? And.... in those comments about one particular retailer and one particular obscure European piano brand you feel gets undue attention here, it's hard not to miss the sparks flying off an ax as it meets the grinding wheel. Would you say that those comments do not relate to a personal agenda?

Finally, I honestly can recall no example of the overt hijacking of a thread topic by a retailer who wants to turn it toward his agenda. That's not to say that retailers don't look for their posting opportunities and that there aren't many such opportunities presented, but taking advantage of an opportuity presented is not the same IMO as forcibly taking a thread off-topic.

My own impression is that topics are most often pulled off topic by non-industry members who insert themselves into threads as self-appointed thought moderators, going here, there, and everywhere to label what they don't agree with as irrelevant.



Well, 3 points to make

I was being honest about why I check in from time to time and yes it is for the occasional amusement or an occasional laugh. There are topics on these forums that can often take an amusing turn. I cannot help but laugh at times that a musical instrument could be the source of so much heated debate. I don't know if that's condescending if I see it that way, but it is what it is...

The reason why I haven't posted in some time is simply because I started a new business and just haven't had the time to post. If I had an agenda, certainly you would think I would have made more than 1 post in over a year? I mean, c'mon dude! My only agenda was to give some advice based on the original poster's question. It was just a suggestion. My concerns with the piano forums section was that the advice on these boards were not always as transparent or balanced as they could be. There is no perfect solution- but my suggestion might be a start. As I stated above, no one wants to remove the ability of an industry professional to post.

You make some really good points otherwise in your comments above. You are correct in that it is wrong to minimize suggestions one considers "undesirable". It is wrong for anyone to be "condescending" in their posts. It is wrong for "non-industry members to insert themselves into threads as self-appointed thought moderators going here, there, and everywhere to label what they don't agree with as irrelevant." That is all really good advice but based on the way you responded to my first post ( and I'm pretty sure many others feel this way as well), I think sometimes you just need to heed your own advice.




Edited by Jethro (10/24/12 12:53 PM)
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#1978046 - 10/24/12 01:59 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
The whole idea that the "we" in the title of thread has some major significance is quite silly IMO. Virtually none of the posters saw it that way and there were around fifty posts by many different posters before the comments about the significance Of "we" came along.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/24/12 02:01 PM)

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#1978051 - 10/24/12 02:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
It would be interesting if this thread deteriorated into the type of thread that prompted the question to begin with.
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978 458 8688
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#1978058 - 10/24/12 02:41 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Larry Buck]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It would be interesting if this thread deteriorated into the type of thread that prompted the question to begin with.


Heading that way at light speed.
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1978064 - 10/24/12 02:48 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
one more suggestion to improve these forums -- an Ignore button, a common feature on BBS software, which would help improve the Signal to Noise ratio both in terms of personal selection and preemptive elimination of conflict.

update: found it -- it's on the user profile.


Edited by Entheo (10/24/12 02:59 PM)
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#1978095 - 10/24/12 04:07 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

A maximum number of postings per week would compel members to consider seriously the content of what they post and when.

Also some online newspaper forums I am on do not allow editing. This also compels the poster to think seriously about the content of a posting.

Say 35-50 postings per week…one could have the choice of posting daily or jettison the entire amount in one day.

I believe this would go a long way to cutting down the bickering and sniping; one would not see a lot of throwaway postings.

I thought of another interesting one that is completely unworkable; dealers would not be permitted to post about what they sell; only what they don’t sell. It would make for some pretty interesting postings.
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1978115 - 10/24/12 04:50 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
It would be interesting if this thread deteriorated into the type of thread that prompted the question to begin with.


Heading that way at light speed.


grin

Well, it won't be because of me. I've been told that 50 odd posts have proven that my idea of collective responsibility (rather than evicting undesirables from the tenement grin) is silly, so I'll just sit in a corner.

I do like your idea of a post limit though. Since I've been on a self-imposed reading and posting diet, my physique has improved a lot. Seriously, I agree that it places a premium on organizing one's thoughts prior to blabbering.

I don't know how management would feel about a decline in overall post count though. Quality over quantity is not always an easy sell. It's like those top-level French restaurants where the artistry of presentation can't quite overcome the hunger in the belly. grin
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#1978120 - 10/24/12 05:05 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
Bumping up against the "Wall" is exactly what reminds us of where that "Wall" is.

Piano World has a way of working all things out.

At times, I have to introspect thoroughly as I am reading. I think this is where much of my own personal growth is.

If we constrain things any more than they are by the moderators, I think value is lost.

BTW, I think the moderators do a very good job.




Edited by Larry Buck (10/24/12 09:05 PM)
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978 458 8688
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www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1978132 - 10/24/12 05:19 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.
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#1978151 - 10/24/12 05:48 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4182
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.



This is what I mean. History should not be re-written. A poster makes a posting and if mistaken it is reconciled over time and further postings for all to view.

Like I stated previously this would cut down on a lot of the unnecessary (read snarky) content. It would also force members to think about what the content of the posting actually is.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1978157 - 10/24/12 06:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1730
Loc: Philadelphia area
Putting all snarkynesses aside, I agree with the recurring thread that keeps weaving its way through this thread, Stay On Topic!

Whew, finally got that out.
Thanks.

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#1978167 - 10/24/12 06:35 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here.
I think this is way PW editing works right now. At least that has been my experience with editing. I don't know what the present time limit is. It actually seems to vary from post to post.

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#1978179 - 10/24/12 07:14 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Larry Buck]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
Bumping up against the "Wall" is exactly what reminds us of where that "Wall" is.

Piano World has a way of working all things out.

At times, I have to introspect thoroughly as I am reading. I think this is where my much of my own personal growth is.

If we constrain things any more than that they are by the moderators, I think value is lost.

BTW, I think the moderators do a very good job.




This ^^

There is no perfect internet forum out there. I think a good enough balance is struck here that keeps the content interesting and varied.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#1978197 - 10/24/12 08:19 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Supply]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 388
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.


I was glad there was an edit facility when a particular manufacturer demanded that I withdraw all negative comments about one of their products - (I removed all references I ever made about all their products, including substantial positive comments). These comments were older than 20 minutes.
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#1978222 - 10/24/12 09:08 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
I am very happy I could edit my poor grammar in my above last post.

You can still read my bad grammar in Opera Tenor's quote of me ;-) ....

Nothing ever truly disappears on the web ....
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1978239 - 10/24/12 09:47 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Jethro Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 235
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
Originally Posted By: Supply
I think editing is OK, but there should be a time limit on it. One forum I am on gives you 20 minutes to correct spelling and grammar (and maybe change your mind about that public snarky comment). I kind of like that. There is too much re-writing of history happening here, at times.



This is what I mean. History should not be re-written. A poster makes a posting and if mistaken it is reconciled over time and further postings for all to view.

Like I stated previously this would cut down on a lot of the unnecessary (read snarky) content. It would also force members to think about what the content of the posting actually is.


Meh... I edited my last post to actually add additional snarkiness to my content. I thought I was simply being too easy on Turandot.
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Kawai RX-2

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#1978261 - 10/24/12 10:56 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Now that is funny.

I just went back to posts of mine that are over a month old. I can still edit them.

[Edit:] Maybe I should while I still can?


Edited by Supply (10/25/12 12:40 AM)
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Piano Forte Supply
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#1978280 - 10/24/12 11:55 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Larry Buck]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2371
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Larry Buck
I am very happy I could edit my poor grammar in my above last post.

You can still read my bad grammar in Opera Tenor's quote of me ;-) ....

Nothing ever truly disappears on the web ....


I'm here to help...

;-)
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1978408 - 10/25/12 09:23 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Jethro]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Jethro
I've posted on and off on these forums through the years and over time began feeling it was big waste of time for those looking for unbiased opinions.... I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out.


Originally Posted By: Jethro
The reason why I haven't posted in some time is simply because I started a new business and just haven't had the time to post.


Originally Posted By: Jethro

I edited my last post to actually add additional snarkiness to my content. I thought I was simply being too easy on Turandot.


Jethro,

Make up your mind.

It's truly difficult to believe that you came into this thread to offer constructive comments on the thread topic.
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Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
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#1978412 - 10/25/12 09:36 AM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Ed Foote Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 976
Loc: Tennessee
Hmm, back to the topic.

We will improve our content, immensely, by knowing when not to respond. It isn't as self-aggrandizing as leaping to the fray, but it is a lot more effective. A forum where B.S. passes through, rather than being held up at the first check-point as a target for snipers, is a cleaner place. Smells better, too.
If some fool is wrong, the peer community may well point it out, but trying to convince, or to continue looking for capitulation is folly. There are too many out there that seek contention for their own personal needs and they post not for community with the forum, but rather, as a means of creating the rancor and strife in which they feel most comfortable. Knowing when to ignore is a higher form of communication than descending into the mud pit of ignorance with someone that is already there and comfortable in it.

Regards,

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#1978461 - 10/25/12 12:09 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: turandot]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Jethro
I've posted on and off on these forums through the years and over time began feeling it was big waste of time for those looking for unbiased opinions.... I still visit piano forums from time to time but I must apologize it's usually to get a quick laugh similar to the way I go to hockey games hoping a brawl would break out.


Originally Posted By: Jethro
The reason why I haven't posted in some time is simply because I started a new business and just haven't had the time to post.


Originally Posted By: Jethro

I edited my last post to actually add additional snarkiness to my content. I thought I was simply being too easy on Turandot.


Jethro,

Make up your mind.

It's truly difficult to believe that you came into this thread to offer constructive comments on the thread topic.
I see nothing inconsistent in his statements that require that he make up his mind.

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#1978466 - 10/25/12 12:17 PM Re: How Can We Make the Advice Given on Piano World Better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13965
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
People forget that this whole discussion is missing a very important part, at least as long as real players are involved.

It's not about advice "given" - but "gotton"

Pianist and buyers typically offer advice and opinions which a true professional will respect.

Just read Franz Mohr's book.

As professional one can offer different samples and experiences involving different pianos and their state of preparation.

Widening possible choices for buyers is not the same as "giving an opinion".

2 very different things.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (10/25/12 12:18 PM)
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