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#1978254 - 10/24/12 10:34 PM loose flange bushings
msks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 221
Loc: lawrence,KS
What could cause the hammer flanges to get really loose even though wear on the knuckles and hammers is not extreme?
Could the cloth have been defective? THe shanks & flanges were replaced in the early 1980's.

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#1978257 - 10/24/12 10:36 PM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Hammer flange what? Screws? Center pins?
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1978259 - 10/24/12 10:49 PM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
ummm, Jer, the question might be about bushings, if I read the title of the thread correctly....

I have rarely seen loose bushings though, they are usually stuck in there quite well. Now center pins on the other hand.... those are indeed often loose in the bushings. wink

If the parts are not showing much wear, I would suspect that either the bushing cloth was not high quality or the original pinning was not done properly, at least not properly enough to stand up to the climate in your area. I often hear that techs let a new set of shanks acclimatize for a while in their shop before checking the pinning prior to installation (and re-pin as needed). This could have been omitted. Speaking of that, I recently installed a set of pre-hung hammer on shanks. These came from far away. Maybe I am opening up myself and my client's piano for a center pin problem down the road. Any opinions (without hi-jacking the thread)?
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1978318 - 10/25/12 02:31 AM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: msks
What could cause the hammer flanges to get really loose even though wear on the knuckles and hammers is not extreme?
Could the cloth have been defective? THe shanks & flanges were replaced in the early 1980's.


Abuse of CLP ... centers going out of the wood with time.
screws not tightened too much hygrometrics changes (centers goes out more easily in that case)

Lack of voicing (hard impact is hard on the cloth) hammer mass not well centered on shanks,(hammers not vertical enough)
of course misregulation ; tails rubbing on the backchecks, regulation if incorrect can cause wear (compression) of the cloth. centers of lesser quality, if the surface is not good they will ream the cloth

@Jurgen I mostly adjust new pinning with distilled water 5% isopropyl alcohol if too tight, as installing a pin of the same size after burnishing the cloth is not really secure.
(the advantage I find in using the 60 cm long centers is that different sizes can be find, some centers will be 130 mm strong for instance, gauges generally differs a little from the small centers.

I also respect the orientation of the center, as the fiber in the flange is following it (the centers are cut on the opposite side they are inserted so it can be seen)

When burnishing in a drill press with steel needles , the needle goes out in the direction opposed to the future center insertion

I have consistent results on grand hammer flanges taking all those precautions.

Using a support to hold the parts while reaming is also a good idea, the parts will be more square in the end.

a saw lines in the top of a wooden block (end of the grain direct ion) are enough to hold flanges and grand shanks, but a small thin vertical plank with a saw line and flat head screws on one side to regulate to the parts shape, is what was used in the factories to install new (long) centers.

see that at 8:10 on that old movie :




Edited by Kamin (10/25/12 02:53 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1978381 - 10/25/12 07:30 AM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: msks
What could cause the hammer flanges to get really loose even though wear on the knuckles and hammers is not extreme?
Could the cloth have been defective? THe shanks & flanges were replaced in the early 1980's.


OK, let's back up a minute. how loose are we talking about and how are you determining how loose this is? Number of hammer swings, gram resistance, side play, wide string grooves on the hammer... ?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1978553 - 10/25/12 03:53 PM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

If the parts are installed in an instrument that is subjected to boiler heat, it could be as simple as the wooden parts shrinking over time.

Some shanks I have ordered from a particular company have had a lot of slop between the bird’s eye and the flange.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1978591 - 10/25/12 04:58 PM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Originally Posted By: msks
What could cause the hammer flanges to get really loose even though wear on the knuckles and hammers is not extreme?
Could the cloth have been defective? THe shanks & flanges were replaced in the early 1980's.


I kind of figured as much Jurgen but with as many vague things that people post, I thought I would should anyway.

1980's? That's close to 30 years of wear already.

Hammers where flange screws have loosened up allowing the flanges to move over will create wear on the bushings because hammers are not striking in their original location on the wire groove marks in the hammers. This can force the hammer over each time it is played. It doesn't always take much to eventually create wear on a bushing and this type of thing can do it too.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1979143 - 10/26/12 11:58 PM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: UnrightTooner]
msks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 221
Loc: lawrence,KS
Sorry, I was not specific enough. THe bushings are so loose that the shanks wobble a good bit from side to side. I have no idea where these were made. The screws were not loose.

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#1979170 - 10/27/12 03:36 AM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: msks
Sorry, I was not specific enough. THe bushings are so loose that the shanks wobble a good bit from side to side. I have no idea where these were made. The screws were not loose.


SO THOSE RE THE SHANKS SOLD BY A....(SECRET NAME)

and widely used as so good quality parts (for them to know, if they read me)



Edited by Kamin (10/27/12 04:26 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1979499 - 10/27/12 11:59 PM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: Olek]
msks Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 221
Loc: lawrence,KS
Perhaps they are those. From a S*******y.

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#1979573 - 10/28/12 06:47 AM Re: loose flange bushings [Re: msks]
Olek Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6374
Loc: France
yes , but after 110 years that is no surprise wink What is , is to find much side play (from left to right, not in the bushing cloth) on new flanges and shanks from a reputed supplier.

To mount them I would have to take out the centers, install 2 small paper /mylar punchings on the left and right side of the birdseye and mount new centers.





Edited by Kamin (10/28/12 06:47 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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