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#1980674 - 10/30/12 07:14 PM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: Ozgur]
slowtraveler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 232
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Admittedly, we're just speculating about how this thing works. But the idea of using an actual piano action coupled to pressure sensors raises some weird questions. Will it be possible to voice an Alpha Piano the way you do an acoustic instrument (with needles, sanding, etc.)? Would such a connection between the action and the sensors create a unique sound for each individual instrument? Would that be a good thing or a bad thing?

Fundamentally, the output of the sensors is still used to select from among a finite (although large) set of sampled sounds, right? So is there anything to be gained creatively from creating a less deterministic connection between the physical action and the samples?

To me this idea of using pressure sensors again raises the philosophical question about how far DP manufacturers ought to go in trying to replicate each and every idiosyncrasy of the acoustic piano.

B.

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#1980678 - 10/30/12 07:19 PM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: Ozgur]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2469
Loc: UK
Voicing of hammers is already possible/available on DP's (Roland comes to mind, maybe others?).

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#1980685 - 10/30/12 07:44 PM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: Ozgur]
Radion Romanovich Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/11
Posts: 39
Perhaps some day they will even include a 'Prepared Piano' preset with different objects to choose for XX-Century repertoire, like they already have a de-tuned piano?

On a more serious note, it would be interesting if not so far into the future DP developers start experimenting and possibly create a new instrument in its own right, kind of a Wurlitzer of the digital era. And yes, I'm aware there is such a thing called a synthesizer, but I'm talking about something more specific.

The idea behind these digital piano will always be an oxymoron, anyways. And as far as I know, all major players have these kind of thing built into their machines (damper, voicing of hammers, etc.)

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#1980691 - 10/30/12 08:12 PM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: spanishbuddha]
slowtraveler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/12
Posts: 232
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Voicing of hammers is already possible/available on DP's (Roland comes to mind, maybe others?).

Sort of. With respect to Roland's so-called Piano Designer functionality, you can adjust what they call "hammer noise" globally but not for individual notes, I believe. I don't know about other DPs.

I suppose the output of the sensors (simple hammer velocity, or whatever else) could be used to decide what kinds of signal processing to apply to individual samples, but that would imply a DSP signal path for every note up to maximum polyphony.

I'm assuming current instruments don't do that, correct?

B.

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#1982609 - 11/04/12 12:57 PM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: Ozgur]
Ozgur Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/12
Posts: 99
Loc: Turkey
Originally Posted By: Ozgur
Originally Posted By: sullivang
Ozgur: Thanks - I agree - no need for a recording. It appears that your N1 does NOT simulate double-escapement. I saw a comment from another AvantGrand user (not sure which - I think it was either the N2 or N3) who tested it, and it DID simulate double-escapement.

Even though the N1 is the lowest model of the A.G series, I would have expected it to simulate double-escapement. I have never tried any A.G - it will be interesting to see what other A.G owners have to say about this.

My Casio PX-330 passes your test, as should almost all Yamaha Clavinovas, because almost all Clavinovas have a tri-sensor action.

Maybe there is something wrong with your N1.......

I cannot believe that Yamaha would deliberately omit double-escapement on the N1.

Greg.


Thanks for the guidance. Here, I request from other AG users to do the same test and write what happens. I have to repeat: This is not "playing off the jack". This actually is a necessary feature for practising. I need to know if other AG users can do this test.

But I am not obsessed with those problems, just want to know.




I requested the test from other AG owners but maybe this is not an interesting subject.

Anyway I did the test again to my N1 and it surprisingly passed it. The reason that it didn't pass earlier is that I expected exactly the same response like I do on the C1. The N1 simulates the double escapement but it's more difficult to achieve than on the C1. On the N1, I have to realease the key very carefully and higher than I do on the C1. That's why N1 requires a little more practise for the repetitions (which is actually very good for practising reasons)By the way, about 5 days ago, I tried a Celviano ap220, it has the double escapement effect but it's way too easy to achieve than on a grand piano. So you maybe tricked when you practice and may not achive the same response on a grand. So not a very beneficial practise tool for the repetitions.

My appologies for any inconvenience about the wrong results of my first test.

Yesterday and the day before I played the Gershwin Rhapsodie In Blue on a beautiful Steinway D. After practising on the N1, the fast repetition section of the piece was easier to achive on the Steinway D.
_________________________
Ozgur Unaldi, pianist

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#1982855 - 11/05/12 03:42 AM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: Ozgur]
sullivang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2231
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Ozgur: Good news! smile

I don't know whether you looked closely at the test procedure (in that other post I referred to), but I said to release the key to a point just before the note is damped. If you do that carefully, you will be able to reliably determine whether it has double-escapement or not. Of course, once you determine that it does have double-escapement, it's then a matter of determining how much key travel's worth of double-escapement you have.

It'd be interesting to know how much difference you perceive between different acoustic pianos - for example, do real pianos differ by the same amount that you are experiencing between digital and acoustic?

Greg.

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#2332681 - 09/30/14 05:15 PM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: sullivang]
Ozgur Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/12
Posts: 99
Loc: Turkey
Originally Posted By: sullivang
Ozgur: Good news! smile

I don't know whether you looked closely at the test procedure (in that other post I referred to), but I said to release the key to a point just before the note is damped. If you do that carefully, you will be able to reliably determine whether it has double-escapement or not. Of course, once you determine that it does have double-escapement, it's then a matter of determining how much key travel's worth of double-escapement you have.

It'd be interesting to know how much difference you perceive between different acoustic pianos - for example, do real pianos differ by the same amount that you are experiencing between digital and acoustic?

Greg.


Hello Greg,

Do not kill me. I may have just made a world record of the "longest time to reply someone" smile But actually I was just going to write something new about N1 smile

This is to break the record: Acoustic grand pianos do not differ much, their feel of double escapement is almost identical. But some digital pianos have much easier escapements to achieve and they may decieve a pianist, not good...

I have just discovered a very odd thing on my N1 (after two years). I was just trying to find the first escapement on "the second octave C" although I was sure that the first escapment does not exist on the N1. For no reason I just wanted to try again. On a grand piano, the first escapement is not very easy to notice, you need press very slowly until you feel a resistance. Well, I was trying the same thing but could not find the first escapement and I reached the second escapement. After waiting there a couple of seconds, I pressed the key until the end...AND... well there you go, I heard the key sound just like on a regular grand!!! To be exact: N1 played off the jack first time! This is so odd guys...Because to achieve it, I have to press the key so slowly that I may fall asleep and when I reach the second escapement, I play until the end, I hear the effect...More surprisingly I could not achieve it in all keys. Some of them do, some of them don't.

And lastly, I bought mine about $6630, now a brand new N1 costs $10.000! Do you have any facts or ideas about this huge jump on the price? I suspect that they upgraded the instrument with the same name. What do you think?
_________________________
Ozgur Unaldi, pianist

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#2332717 - 09/30/14 07:13 PM Re: Promised to write a review of my new instrument:N1 [Re: Ozgur]
Pete14 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/12/13
Posts: 287
One expects the price to start dropping after 4 years in the market. Does this mean that there is no NX1 in the works?

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