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#1978850 - 10/26/12 10:50 AM Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better?
Babyloneden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 10
Hi everyone, due to lack fo budget(around $4000), compare to these 3 China made piano: Pearl River(or Ritmiiller), Perzina and Kawai(China made, NOT Japan made). Which is worth to buy? Also, I know Pearl river and Kawai both are authentic brand. Does Perzina too?

Thanks
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#1978865 - 10/26/12 11:47 AM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
Perzina is not just a piano brand but also the name of the company. They are European but set up their factory in China. I would say there's not a big difference at this price so go with the one you are most comfortable with. Kawai is the most established brand here, so I would expect the other two to offer a bit more in order to compete.

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#1978879 - 10/26/12 12:22 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Pearl River(or Ritmuller), Perzina and Kawai(China made, NOT Japan made).


If it is the new Premium line Ritmuller designed by Lothar Thomma, they have nothing to do with stock Pearl Rivers.

It's an entirely different species incorporating vastly different designs, specs, built quality and certainly "sound".

Placed besides each other, the pianos perform entirely different.

This would become evident to anybody at virtually first touch.

Good luck in your choice!

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (10/26/12 12:29 PM)
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#1978900 - 10/26/12 01:14 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Norbert]
Babyloneden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 10
Hi, is the new Premium line LQ series? I've already have a play in my local shop. The model is Ritmuller LQ120. The key touch is almost perfect and sound also good. However, I prefer a red color one in my room and at least 122 size or higher. But they only have 120 size and LQ series only offers black color. But I will call them when they stock 125 tomorrow.

Why I am interested in Perzina is its special bass sound(obviousely better than other two).
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#1978933 - 10/26/12 02:34 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10346
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Also, the Kawai is not made in China. They are made in Japan and Indonesia.
_________________________
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Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1978990 - 10/26/12 04:36 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Also, the Kawai is not made in China. They are made in Japan and Indonesia.

Could OP perhaps be looking at a KX-21?
Was this an older model or do they still make it?
It certainly was once available in Canada.

Perhaps OP is writing from outside the U.S.?

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (10/26/12 07:35 PM)
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#1979030 - 10/26/12 05:50 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Steve Cohen]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 799
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Also, the Kawai is not made in China. They are made in Japan and Indonesia.



Steve - beg to differ with you there. I just returned from China, and in deed, there are Chinese made Kawai's supposedly only made for the domestic market. These are made by Parsons and Beijing. I know, it was a surprise to me too - But I have pics to prove it!

As soon as I catch up with other work, I'm going to post on some of my findings and explorations .... and I have another moniker to add to my already lengthy signature f


Edited by master88er (10/26/12 05:53 PM)
_________________________
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R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

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SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
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#1979069 - 10/26/12 07:51 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: master88er]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: master88er


Steve - beg to differ with you there. I just returned from China, and in deed, there are Chinese made Kawai's supposedly only made for the domestic market. These are made by Parsons and Beijing.


The lengths to which a dedicated forum retailer will travel to resolve a question are impressive. grin f

Actually, member Chen (forum name) first reported on Kawai production at Parsons a couple of years ago. He described himself as a Kawai employee working inside the Pasons production complex. His reports never created any gasps here. shocked

The first to report on the remarkable similarities between certain Kawai models and Beijing models was Glenn Treibetz.

The first to report on the fact that European retailers were going with Indoesian K-3's rather than the more expensive Japanese made ones (also available to them) was Chris Venables.

I think all this means is that Kawai is hedging its bets on the future, and why not? The Parsons connection in particular makes a lot of sense since Parsons' own retail stores sell oodles of Kawai pianos in China.

Master,

Once you unpack all your contraband CD's DVD's, and pharmaceuticals, maybe you could report your finding about PR's use of the Rimuller and Kayserberg labels on the home market.
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#1979085 - 10/26/12 08:20 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Companies today still trying to call the word "China" a dirty word, better have their economic house in order.

[Piano] companies happy enough to sell only in Afghanistan,Luxemburg and Ghana don't have the trouble

All others take note that the Chinese are no longer the coolies of the world.
They got the most money, the largest markets and increasingly the most political power.

Rest assured China will not be impressed by goods made in Indonesia. China's own huge domestic market demands and will continue to obtain goods produced on their own terms. If this be within their own country, so be it. In fact, it long *is*.

Fools will deny and fight this but others including 8000 odd German corporations ["eight thousand"..] are meantime thriving.

So do virtually all our resource companies here in Canada.

"Hide and seek" is rapidly becoming a game for dedicated loosers.

What is for some a threat remaining a "dirty word" has long become opportunity for others. GREAT opportunity!

Here's from one you'd least expect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (10/26/12 08:28 PM)
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#1979088 - 10/26/12 08:23 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Steve Cohen Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10346
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
While I was aware that Kawai produced pianos in China for domestic distribution, I thought the imports to North America were limited to Japanese- and Indonesian-made instruments.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1979109 - 10/26/12 09:17 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Norbert]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
China's own huge domestic market demands and will continue to obtain goods produced on their own terms. If this be within their own country, so be it. In fact, it long *is*.

Norbert


Norbert,

I really don't think the rest of your post breaks any new wind ground. However, this excerpt is a bit startling, even from you. grin

To the extent that their individual income permits, Chinese are keenly interested in and aspire to ownership of foreign goods from the West. As their level of income rises, so with it rises their level of interest in owning what a generation ago would have been inconceivable to them.

This is not an indictment of China's ability to produce quality goods. It is simply a social phenomenon that has repeated itself throughout Asia since WW2.

I don't know what you mean exactly when you say that Chinese demand goods produced on their own terms, but if you mean by that statement that Chinese are demanding Chinese-made products, you are simply wrong.

I also think you're off target in attacking fools who think that the Chinese are a race of coolies. Only a backwoods cretan whose sole cultural acquaintance with China is a pair of disposable chopsticks from the take-ot has that cultural image today. The operative word in 2012 is scary, not dirty.
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#1979155 - 10/27/12 12:34 AM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Babyloneden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 10
ops...Let's back to the topic not China.
master88er is correct, because I am in China now. But only Parsons will produce China Kawai, Beijing will no longer OEM Kawai.
However, you will still find both Beijing Kawai(a few inventory) and Parsons Kawai in the market.
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#1979156 - 10/27/12 12:46 AM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Babyloneden:

Your situation in China is really no different than that of any other piano shopper.

Congratulations: today we sold a piano "made in China" against another one which was not.

Tomorrow, it may be the other way around.

Touch and sound is really what counts most.

There's no quick advice giving outside that.

Good luck!

P.S. Your English is excellent!

Norbert smile
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#1979305 - 10/27/12 02:23 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 799
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: Babyloneden
ops...Let's back to the topic not China.
master88er is correct


... and you expected anything else? laugh
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#1979353 - 10/27/12 05:15 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: master88er]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: master88er
Originally Posted By: Babyloneden
ops...Let's back to the topic not China.
master88er is correct


... and you expected anything else? laugh


Well, yea! You're a real sweetheart grin, but.......

I don't know that you let him know that he was in China, and even if you had, I would wager that he already knew that without your help.

Could you help him out on the question of the Ritmuller model he describes (a company you represent) instead of exploring the dark secrets of Kawai outsourcing (the copany you don't represent)?

I would find it useful as well because from what I understand the use of the names Ritmuller and Kayserberg on pianos is different in Asia from their use in the Western market.
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#1979393 - 10/27/12 06:40 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The question of 'outsourcing' only came up after Steve Cohen claimed Kawai pianos were only made in either Japan or Indonesia.
I later tried to make the point that in today's market the quality of these uprights had less to do with *where* they were made than their musical quality and preference by owner.

If it were 9'concert grands, the discussion would most likely be somewhat different.

Don't forget these are simple uprights and it would be more interesting to hear what OP has to say and his own impressions than we constantly telling *him*

Happy choosing!

Norbert smile
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#1979461 - 10/27/12 09:04 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Norbert]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
The question of 'outsourcing' only came up after Steve Cohen claimed Kawai pianos were only made in either Japan or Indonesia.
I later tried to make the point that in today's market the quality of these uprights had less to do with *where* they were made than their musical quality and preference by owner,

Norbert smile


Norbert,

I realize that Russell was clariying a misstatement and I realize that you were trying to be helpful in sorting out which Kawai it might be.. I'm only pulling Russell's chain to get him (if he can) to speak to the use of the Ritmuller and Kayserberg's names in the Asian market. It's a little selfish because I peronsally find it very confusing.
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The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1979477 - 10/27/12 10:03 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
I personally find it very confusing.


Unfortunately you are right there....sigh

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1979693 - 10/28/12 02:41 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Norbert]
Babyloneden Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 10
Hi there,

I still haven't bought yet.

1. As piano "OEM in China", in my opinion, unlike digital products, the "skill level" of works fully as important as piano parts. So I think there will be still slight diffeence between a outsourced piano and original one. At least for me, outsourced Kawai and original Kawai have noticeable difference. Yamaha seems to be better because they own factory in China and that ensure better quality control.

2. Some native Chinese brand piano really impress me at both workmanship and tone including Pearl River, Ritmuller, Kayserburg. Compare to Japanese Yamaha/Kawai, these are really very good(at least in term of performance price ratio). But why they are my first choice is just because too many people buy them here and I don't want to follow(might sounds ridiculous).

3. I did a research about Ritmüller LQ120 I mentioned before and this modle doesn't appear on Pearlriver company's official website. And other people told me this is just a custom modle not a common modle. Other Pearlriver shop still recommend me to choose common models such as Ritmüller R6/UP120R4 or etc(I don't know if Pearlriver name thier product same name in oversea).

4. Why I post the thread here is just want to hear more differnect voices. For example, Perzina salesclerk emphasizes their product was in group 3A(The Piano Book by Lary Fine). However, businessmen in China is used to "buy a ranking", so that list is highly doubted in China's piano forum. Do you think that list is reliable or just a joke?

5. I just found a new choice today - May Berlin. Will do more rearch.

Thanks


Edited by Babyloneden (10/28/12 02:57 PM)
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#1979713 - 10/28/12 03:38 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: turandot]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 799
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: turandot
Originally Posted By: Norbert
The question of 'outsourcing' only came up after Steve Cohen claimed Kawai pianos were only made in either Japan or Indonesia.
I later tried to make the point that in today's market the quality of these uprights had less to do with *where* they were made than their musical quality and preference by owner,

Norbert smile


Norbert,

I realize that Russell was clariying a misstatement and I realize that you were trying to be helpful in sorting out which Kawai it might be.. I'm only pulling Russell's chain to get him (if he can) to speak to the use of the Ritmuller and Kayserberg's names in the Asian market. It's a little selfish because I peronsally find it very confusing.


If I were the OP, when it comes to Pearl River product in the domestic (China) market, I would be LESS concerned with the brand name on the product than the model of the product. For example, I would probably opt for the UH series upright pianos over the UP series upright pianos whether they say Pearl River, Ritmuller, Kayserburg, Essex, or Jing Zhu ( shocked ) . Again, ONLY IN THE DOMESTIC MARKET, the pianos with identical model numbers have, well, pretty identical features.

The above being said, I would HIGHLY encourage the OP to look at the new products with the Pearl River, Ritmuller and Kayserburg labels on them that say "Pearl River Beijing piano" on the lower right hand corner of the fall board. These instruments come from Pearls factory in Beijing and are new models not available outside of China, yet. They are absolutely FABULOUS!

In the USA and Europe, we have not yet seen what we will know as Kayserburg yet (other than in one retail store in the USA), but NAMM will probably correct that situation. These pianos will be TOTALLY different than the Kayserburgs alluded to above (and those sold in Australia), and have models starting with KA and KD. I'll go into those in another thread at another time, or maybe not ... given the recent tone of postings on PW.


Edited by master88er (10/28/12 05:07 PM)
_________________________
Russell I. Kassman
R.KASSMAN, Purveyor of Fine Pianos
Berkeley, CA

FORMER US Rep.for C.Bechstein

SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
www.rkassman.com
russell@rkassman.com
510.558.0765

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#1979893 - 10/28/12 11:29 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: master88er]
Karl Watson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/11
Posts: 234
Russell:

Those of us who either play the piano or are involved in its construction, repair and/or regulation, or perhaps some combination of the above, all know very well that your contributions to this forum are HIGHLY valued.

I hope you will consider finishing your last as it's sure to be valued by those who do their best to avoid the delusional, those that put a high value on anything that will increase their knowledge of the instrument.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

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#1980029 - 10/29/12 10:07 AM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Babylon,

Using your numbers in your last post....

1.) OEM could theoretically be used as a means to offer a better piano that one could build in house, but in reality is used to save on costs or to cover the fact that a piano 'maker' doesn't really have a house at all.

2.) not necessarily ridiculous, but the name on the fallboard of most pianos probably means less now than it ever has.

3.) UP is an older series that has been completely replaced in the US market. Master 88er gives you good advice.

4.) Fine's rankings are controversial here because people read too much into them. Mr. Fine has said many times that they are offered simply as a rough guide and based more on positioning in the market (price) than a through examination of quality. I think they can be very misleading when applied to the Asian market because in many cases fallboard names and models sold there are not the sane as what we are offered here. Perzina has always been enthusiastic about Fine's ratings because Mr. Fine has always had good things to say about their vertical models. Undertandably, they use that in their general marketing here.

5.) The May Berlin pianos that we got in the US market when they were introduced came from Parsons and were very similar to other Parsons products offered by other 'makers'. The marketing hook with them was that they were all reportedly sent to Germany for final inspection before being sent to North America.

These days, I don't think the ones offered here are coming from Parsons and the claim of being sent to Europe for final inspection is no longer made. I doubt very much that any May Berlin pianos sold in China ever saw the light of day in a German piano factory. It's just another example of how you should be careful evaluating what you have there based on what you hear and read about here.

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#1980094 - 10/29/12 01:17 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The ways of choosing a piano are made very differently by different people. A lot of it is by "hunch" and often has nothing to do with the instrument itself.

For no others is this more true than the Chinese themselves and I shall say this is actually "good" for us in the West.

But will or 'can' it last?

The moment this will change with the Chinese themselves getting off the "image deat" realizing that many great quality consumer goods can actually be made on their own soil, it will change everything one more time.

Which will be serious.

Since the piano business is such a competitive business, there's a lot of "engineered" confusion going on, unfortunately much of it having come from China.

But China is no longer alone.

Not exactly having had the best reputation for manufactured goods before, there's no place on earth where changes are happening faster and more profoundly than in that country.

When in Germany or simply watching DW ["Deutsche Welle"] in the evening I hear again and again the Germans have long realized their industry would long have been at virtual standstill without heavily committing to China.

Today,over 8000 German companies are producing stuff there, some of it being shipped back, some staying there.

Pearl River, Pasons and Hailun are not the only ones who are taking full advantage of this new reality of cooperation and joint ventures.

The very reason a great number of Germany's best industry experts, engineers, scientists, business people and perhaps people like Lothar Thomma are today in China has to be understood within that very context.

The stakes are high for everone involved.

It's a simple fact that not one single Volkswagen,Audi, Mercedes or GM would be allowed to be sold in China without enormous commitments and investments by these companies on Chinese soil first.

Accepting that the landscape has entirely changed is not and has not been easy for everybody. For many it still insn't.

The first time we ran into Beijing made Steigermann and then later the Hailun made "Steigerman Premiums" we were actually shocked.

How could such great sounding pianos come from "China" and how could they have been offered so inexpensive?

We soon became dealers and I have to still find one single piano which has fallen apart on us or our customers.

The newly designed and manufactured pianos today by a select group of manufactureres are pushing the ante up one more notch yet. These definitely include some of the pianos mentioned.

In fact these new lines are often pianos so spectacular that putting them side by side to other,much better known and highly respected makes can become a serious challenge.

Of course not many dealers are willing to offer this opportunity to their customers knowing full well it could cost them a deal on a piano of much higher price.

It has happened to us and it's unfortunately the price to pay when not arbitrarily manipulating stock on showroom floor.

Having said this, perhaps it is indeed better not to consider some of the better - let alone "top" - Chinese made pianos at all.

Once this will change,we may not recognize the landscape around us any longer.

If and how long this can be prevented considering the sheer number of children learning piano in China today, may be an entirely different question.

Translation anybody?

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/menschen-wirtschaft/klavierbau-piano-statt-forte-11913820.html

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (10/29/12 02:46 PM)
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
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#1980161 - 10/29/12 04:16 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Norbert]
Grandman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/18/12
Posts: 116
Loc: Usa
Originally Posted By: Norbert
The ways of choosing a piano are made very differently by different people. A lot of it is by "hunch" and often has nothing to do with the instrument itself.

For no others is this more true than the Chinese themselves and I shall say this is actually "good" for us in the West.

But will or 'can' it last?

The moment this will change with the Chinese themselves getting off the "image deat" realizing that many great quality consumer goods can actually be made on their own soil, it will change everything one more time.

Which will be serious.

Since the piano business is such a competitive business, there's a lot of "engineered" confusion going on, unfortunately much of it having come from China.

But China is no longer alone.

Not exactly having had the best reputation for manufactured goods before, there's no place on earth where changes are happening faster and more profoundly than in that country.

When in Germany or simply watching DW ["Deutsche Welle"] in the evening I hear again and again the Germans have long realized their industry would long have been at virtual standstill without heavily committing to China.

Today,over 8000 German companies are producing stuff there, some of it being shipped back, some staying there.

Pearl River, Pasons and Hailun are not the only ones who are taking full advantage of this new reality of cooperation and joint ventures.

The very reason a great number of Germany's best industry experts, engineers, scientists, business people and perhaps people like Lothar Thomma are today in China has to be understood within that very context.

The stakes are high for everone involved.

It's a simple fact that not one single Volkswagen,Audi, Mercedes or GM would be allowed to be sold in China without enormous commitments and investments by these companies on Chinese soil first.

Accepting that the landscape has entirely changed is not and has not been easy for everybody. For many it still insn't.

The first time we ran into Beijing made Steigermann and then later the Hailun made "Steigerman Premiums" we were actually shocked.

How could such great sounding pianos come from "China" and how could they have been offered so inexpensive?

We soon became dealers and I have to still find one single piano which has fallen apart on us or our customers.

The newly designed and manufactured pianos today by a select group of manufactureres are pushing the ante up one more notch yet. These definitely include some of the pianos mentioned.

In fact these new lines are often pianos so spectacular that putting them side by side to other,much better known and highly respected makes can become a serious challenge.

Of course not many dealers are willing to offer this opportunity to their customers knowing full well it could cost them a deal on a piano of much higher price.

It has happened to us and it's unfortunately the price to pay when not arbitrarily manipulating stock on showroom floor.

Having said this, perhaps it is indeed better not to consider some of the better - let alone "top" - Chinese made pianos at all.

Once this will change,we may not recognize the landscape around us any longer.

If and how long this can be prevented considering the sheer number of children learning piano in China today, may be an entirely different question.

Translation anybody?

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/menschen-wirtschaft/klavierbau-piano-statt-forte-11913820.html

Norbert


In contrast to the overwhelming majority opinion on this forum, I think you make a valid point, Norbert. In my ongoing search, I have been extremely surprised at the build quality and musical tone of the top end Chinese pianos.

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#1980268 - 10/29/12 08:44 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
In contrast to the overwhelming majority opinion on this forum, I think you make a valid point, Norbert. In my ongoing search, I have been extremely surprised at the build quality and musical tone of the top end Chinese pianos.


Thanks, but I highly doubt there's an "overwhelming majority" not taking note.

For one, there's a quickly growing, very happy customer base for some of these pianos. They just can't be all wrong.

Next, should anybody understand the above posted article from the economic section of "Frankfurter Allgemeine", a major German newspaper, the smart ones in the industry have long "taking note". And adjusted in pretty major way....

In fact, these guys are busy using the new "piano world order" to their full advantage.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (10/29/12 09:26 PM)
_________________________
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#1980287 - 10/29/12 09:09 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Grandman]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 292
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Grandman
In contrast to the overwhelming majority opinion on this forum, I think you make a valid point, Norbert. In my ongoing search, I have been extremely surprised at the build quality and musical tone of the top end Chinese pianos.


As a recent buyer of a Ritmuller, I can assure you that you are not the only one.

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#1980289 - 10/29/12 09:18 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Despite being warned by a few tuners (and several teachers) NOT to buy a Chinese piano I still did.
I wasn't extremely knowledgeable about pianos when I started but I all my research was showing that they were basing their opinion on outdated ideas from earlier days.
Then it turned out that not one of those that had warned me against buying a Hailun had actually ever worked on one or even examined one up close and thus really knew nothing about them.
Those that did examine my Hailun after I got it couldn't hide their surprise and had to begrudgingly admit that it was indeed very well built. (I would have bought a Brodmann as well).
If I had to do it all over again I would still buy either a Hailun or a Brodmann, but probably try to buy the largest one.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1980291 - 10/29/12 09:18 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Norbert]
Guapo Gabacho Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 430
Loc: Rio Grande Valley of Texas
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Translation anybody?


Mr. Google gives it a try:

Sometimes, in a quiet hour, Hannes Schimmel-Vogel heretical thoughts go through your head. Then he looks at fellow managers, think of conversations with other CEOs and circulated thoughts such as: In what a complex world we actually live in the piano industry? How much easier you could make money elsewhere and get on the career ladder?

The 42-year old blond boy who has married into the Brunswick dynasty keys and nine years leading the Company, has every reason to such reasoning. Of all the traditional piano maker Schimmel, whose instruments have generations of young school music closer to either spoiled or had to sign three years ago insolvency. Today, mold is again fairly stable, but the future is - this knowledge goes beyond the cliché - more uncertain than ever. And not only of Lower Saxony.

A great opportunity and a big problem at the same time
A few facts and figures meet, and you understand why reports of piano producers have been popular topped with a headline from the idea of ​​recycling drawer: "Piano morte". The late sixties and early seventies, the piano manufacturer in this country produced about 30,000 instruments. The early eighties, there was an initial dip, sales fell to 25,000 units. Today, the company would be more than happy to have such a number, the current production is about 11,000. Only a small part of it remains in Germany: 3000. The rest of the purchases abroad.

Third

© FRANZ BISCHOF
Hannes Schimmel-Vogel leads the Braunschweig piano manufacturer molds since 2003. He already has a bankruptcy behind
Our pianos are therefore primarily not from local factories, but in Chinese, Korean and Japanese. We serve the world, and the world supplying us. Globalization? Yes, but in contrast to a rule that is based on the same value chain. Thus Asia and China in particular a great opportunity for the German piano maker and a major problem at the same time.

More Articles
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It is problematic for the industry already fast pace of the global market. If there is one sector that thinks in long cycles, it's the German piano industry. "Bechstein will survive us and future generations," says owner Stefan Freymuth and thus used a key word. Only too happy to refer the piano builders on their history, always a cause for celebration: In the coming year Bechstein, Blüthner and Steinway celebrate their 160th respectively Birthday. Two years ago, Grotrian were at 175 years and 125 years, with mold on the series. Not to mention several smaller suppliers that are soon 140 years and older.

An organically grown chaos
In retrospect, it is easy to overlook that the story of the 88 black and white keys is economically run quite variable. In the 19th Century, the technique was so far advanced that a veritable founder wave began. By the then several hundred piano factories in Germany, but survived only a dozen. 13 Manufacturers Association of Piano counts today as members. This former reputation does not protect from the off. The company Ibach about, which is dominated by the title of "oldest piano manufacturer in the world, since 1794" adorned presented, in 2007 the production. Others, such as the Lower Franconian manufacturer Seiler were taken.

Who wants to know how the survivors tick today must be prepared for long journeys. The Saxon Seifhennersdorf is at the end of Germany, 100 kilometers from Dresden, on the southeastern edge of the Republic. A place that has lost 40 percent since the fall of its inhabitants. Here once stood a great dress and a shoe factory. But that's history. Reality, however, is the largest employer in the area - and this is now a piano maker. Several renovated cream production facility with elongated box windows harboring C. Bechstein piano factory AG, as the listed company called officially. The term "factory" does not really. Yes, there are computer-controlled drilling and milling machines, it also here. But the 150 staff are mainly manual workers. Bands in vain. The production looks like a better carpenter's workshop. , Equivalent to the industry standard.

Curious whether now visiting Bechstein in Seifhennersdorf, mold in Braunschweig or Blüthner in Großpösna in Leipzig: The impression of an organically grown chaos firmer. At least one company with all visitors. Their understanding of the initially assessed as exorbitant price of instruments grows. Perhaps it could be a wing similar to a car is screwed together glued together on one or two days. Whether a pianist would have been delighted with it is another question. And so the manufacturers take time - at least those who occupy what they call the premium segment.

Producers seek their salvation in the Asia-cheap rail
Until they have one wing is finished, it can take nine months or 18 Alone take the drying procedures for the wood and last and last. In the drying chamber with temperatures around 30 degrees the minute and the hour is not a relevant unit. Elsewhere there is timelessness. Infinite patience seems a Klavierbaumeister own when he worked in his little cubby hammers, lay hold long produced for finished. The felt of each of these parts that strike the strings will put many dozen times with fine needle sticks, to make it more elastic. With small flames the hammer handles are heated to adjust their position to tenths of a millimeter.

Is it any wonder that a product manufactured in Germany beginner piano beats with at least 7000 Euros to the price? That for the standard piano must pay 30,000 euros? And a wing sometimes can cost 150,000 euros? Wonders who likes and can afford it. Of the concert pianist alone could no agency life, not even by Russian oligarchs, who are occasionally intervene with German manufacturers. Since even the demand of all Germans together modestly excludes - add 82 million people to 3000 annually to a new acoustic piano from German manufacturing - Demand must come from somewhere else. And so is the great dream of the German piano industry: China. A dream and a nightmare at the same time. After all, who in this country can suddenly have a piano for 1500 euros, which you can easily begin to wonder if it actually has to be made in Germany.

And so many producers now seek their salvation in the Asia-cheap rail. Bechstein has with the Chinese manufacturer Hailun Piano signed a cooperation agreement, which runs for a year. A "quality product made in China" promises CEO Karl Schulze, and so it really looks like quality, is "designed by Bechstein" on the models. Similar mold goes in front of the middle kingdom. Since 2008, the Brunswick working with a manufacturing partner, who is also their importer.

High proportion of manual work
If you get involved as a more expensive supplier in China, the threat of danger. Why, is likely to ask some customers, I want to spend much money for supposedly German workmanship, the manufacturer produced in China anyway? To avoid such thoughts, the Germans eighth meticulously on brand separation. In China, no mold-made pianos, no wings and no Bechstein Blüthner pianos. In China can produce mold tools with the beautiful German name May Berlin, Bechstein instruments with the beautiful German name Zimmermann and Blüthner instruments with the beautiful German name Irmler.

Given the high proportion of manual labor, the cheap Chinese wages suggests dramatically reflected in the price. About half of the production cost of a piano, expects the chairman of the Association of Piano and Director of Grotrian, Burkhard Stein before, attributable to the wage. Makes 40 percent of the material, the rest come from, among other sales and profit margin. This explains why a piano dealer as the Austrian company Zifreind the Irmler-wing "F 160 Studio" ("by Blüthner") with a suggested retail price of 11,590 euros offered, while even a little smaller original Blüthner Model "11" will cost 35,856 euros.

"The trees do not grow to the sky"
The hopes of the industry are on budget-conscious Germans and especially to the Chinese themselves, the Chinese people as the piano without any ifs and buts apply - at least since pianist Lang Lang has to serve as a role model. The 30-year-old is a built-up of clever marketing pop star who not only play the piano well, but also can tell nice stories that are fit for the legend. At the age of two years, Lang Lang is on record that he had seen a cartoon with Tom and Jerry. In the short film "The Cat Concerto" from 1946, Tom has a star pianist in coping with the disorders of his young opponent. His performance, rapid Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2 by Franz Liszt is, still one of the favorite pieces of the star, for the campaigns for Steinway.

Supposedly Lang Lang have moved millions of young Chinese to play. And supposedly there are 80 million in China who want to learn to play the piano. 80 million - if only one-thousandth of it would be a tool set of German manufacturing, the German manufacturers were their concerns going on. But it is not so simple. Schimmel-Vogel warns against unrealistic expectations, particularly as the brand awareness of the Chinese is anything but strong. And even many of them falsely suggesting a German origin. It's not just the Germans themselves, who provided their China-production with German piano names. There are also the Chinese themselves that make up German. "The look in the phone book again and look to a typical German name of" an industry insider says with just a hint of irony in his voice.

So then arise pianos of shock "Ritmüller". Even before the brand "Edelweiss" frighten you back not know Piano Association official stone. But he also knows that to buy large Chinese manufacturers such as Pearl River German technology and even local Klavierbaumeister recruit. Stein's conclusion: "The trees do not grow to the sky, not in China."

As a pianist who does not need notes
All the more surprising that in such a branch manager and chief not close the dozen the piano lid. It promises great growth apparently not currently still hope for a breakthrough in the future. Ensure the piano belongs in every economic cycle of the losers. In a downturn, the industry serves as a leading indicator, the upswing as lagging indicator. Which means: When it comes down to the economy, the piano makers are the first to notice that the. It goes up, they are the last to benefit.

All this seems to interest people as Bechstein chief Karl Schulze little. The feisty former piano dealer has made the Group after a bankruptcy in the nineties to a successful business. Bechstein is one of the few companies where it verified such statements. The listed company must publicly and broadly accountable. Karl Schulze appears like a pianist who needs no notes, but his score in his sleep dominated. Of the heruntergeratterten figures hangs above all: The pre-tax return is almost 10 percent. At the pinnacle of success increases the 64-year-old Schulze expire. Its 20-percent stake in Bechstein he sold to the new owner Freymuth, and in 2014 he left the chief piano stool.

With family tradition and responsibility
A few years longer, the relatively young chef at Blüthner and mold make their management talent. Christian Blüthner-Haessler sounds confident. For decades we have had no operating loss, he says. And the current consumer spending? "40 years of the GDR have not we done, then it also creates such a Euro-crisis."

Schimmel-Vogel is a little quieter. After all, he already felt how it feels to a bankruptcy ". Like a roller coaster ride, where you do not know where it goes," Schimmel plays only "marginal" the piano, and who asks him what binds him to the instrument gets replied: ". Difficult to say" For him, the piano is a "mix of anachronism and civility." And this feeling fades with categories such as family tradition and responsibility for almost 200. Schimmel, after almost a decade ago succeeded his father at the head, once cleaned up, fired the old management and tangled with the union.

Today, the business management has become quieter, but he still knows ". It is trite, in the end it comes to sales and profits, and therefore, to reduce costs," Long pause. "But it has a charm that holds a da and motivated every day." Although perhaps elsewhere could earn easy money.
_________________________
'86 Baldwin SF-10

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#1980354 - 10/29/12 11:37 PM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Babyloneden]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 523
My only input here is, my cousin has a Ritmuller upright (I don't know which model) that's probably around half a decade old, and I was absolutely shocked because it had the best action out of any upright I've ever played. Including the nifty Steinway upright they had at Carnegie Hall.

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#1980463 - 10/30/12 09:50 AM Re: Pearl River/Perzina/Kawai which is better? [Re: Norbert]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Norbert


The moment this will change with the Chinese themselves getting off the "image deat" realizing that many great quality consumer goods can actually be made on their own soil, it will change everything one more time.

Which will be serious.

Since the piano business is such a competitive business, there's a lot of "engineered" confusion going on, unfortunately much of it having come from China.

But China is no longer alone.


Norbert


Norbert,

I believe the OP is a Chinese national living in China. He gives every appearance of being smart, thoughtful, well-educated, and fluent in English. He shows no indication of being blinded by image. I don't know that your predictions, while always interesting (even if somewhat repetitive grin) , relate to any of his specific questions.

Same with the link. Karl Schulze and Hannes Schimmel-Vogel have their own issues, but The OP's issue is trying to sort through what's available to him at this moment in time.

The viewpoint of Deutsche Welle is naturally tilted toward the survival of German industry in a changing world. In that sense China is extremely important in terms of partnering, selling into, and accessing lower-cost skilled labor. There's nothing wrong with any of that, and Germany's realization of its opportunities in China has been to its benefit. But when was the last time you were in China? The focus of the average consumer there is somewhat different from Deutshe Welle's. And for the piano consumer, even locating and hiring a competent, unaffiliated, independent-minded technician to evaluate a possible new piano for purchase is a bit of an issue.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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