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#1979415 - 10/27/12 07:32 PM Casio AP-650
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Received last weekend.

Packaged up today. Returning to the store. After all the good reviews of the AP620 I took a punt and went for the 650 without trying it out first. Yes, a gamble in itself. I'm upgrading from a Yamaha YDP-141.

Understatement to say that I'm extremely disappointed with the 650. Had high hopes. Main issue is the tonal decay (specifically in regards to the piano sound) in the middle range of the keyboard. It's just too fast and unrealistic. Delicate classical pieces (I'm an intermediate pianist) just do not cut it (example Schubert impromptu in g flat) and it annoys me how Casio can market a piano with so much focus on the keyboard effect without noticing that the grand piano tone isnt realistic. The accompaniments are also distinctly average.


I'm expecting delivery of a Roland RP-301R as already played this when I was looking around....and cannot wait to read people's experiences of the Casio AP650. I appear to be one of the first to air my views.

Rant over, hopefully a word of warning to other potential 650 buyers, and perhaps to introduce myself....I'm from the UK.

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#1979485 - 10/27/12 10:31 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Andy,
Hope Mike Martin sees your post. A bit surprised to hear about the quick decay in the mid range of the piano sample. The sample memory was supposed to have been increased by three times to extend the decay. What did you think of the keyboard action? There have been positive comments about the action. Overall, how did you think the AP sample sounded?

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#1979532 - 10/28/12 03:24 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Keyboard action was (in all fairness) very good.
Additionally the 256 polyphony, USB record, 17 track sequencer and other features are pretty good indeed and worth noting.

But with all these bells and whistles, the fundamental flaw is that the piano samples seriously fails to impress.

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#1979533 - 10/28/12 03:28 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Understatement to say that I'm extremely disappointed with the 650. Had high hopes. Main issue is the tonal decay (specifically in regards to the piano sound) in the middle range of the keyboard. It's just too fast and unrealistic. Delicate classical pieces (I'm an intermediate pianist) just do not cut it (example Schubert impromptu in g flat) and it annoys me how Casio can market a piano with so much focus on the keyboard effect without noticing that the grand piano tone isnt realistic.


@andy0140,

I have played the same piece (i.e., Schubert's Impromptu in G-flat, Op. 90, No. 3) on the Casio AP-620 and have found that you cannot sustain the melodic line sufficiently, due to the lack of harmonic resonance and decay in the samples.

So far, only the Roland V-Piano and Kawai CA95 have had sufficient resonance and decay to handle classical repertoire, as mentioned above. There may be some other Kawai and Yamaha digitals that fare better with these effects, also.

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#1979534 - 10/28/12 03:43 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
But with all these bells and whistles, the fundamental flaw is that the piano samples seriously fails to impress.


@andy0140,

I am very disappointed to hear that the samples don't appear to be any better in the AP-650 as compared with the AP-620.

Also, the AP-650 now has a "new high-capacity memory"... up to three times that of previous models?

Here is a portion of that info from the Casio international website:

[More natural waveform data sampling with a higher capacity memory]

[The acoustic level achieved by a digital piano is determined by the capacity of the memory that stores sounds after sampling. A new high-capacity memory, boasting a capacity in excess of approximately three times our previous models (converted linearly), is installed for the Multi-dimensional Morphing AiR sound source. The waveform data sampling capacity has increased dramatically, enabling natural reproduction of the delicate changes in waveforms associated with concert grand pianos.]

And, here is the link which contains all of the above:

http://www.casio-intl.com/asia-mea/en/emi/celviano/info/#air

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#1979537 - 10/28/12 04:00 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
@pv88

The Yamaha ydp handled the melodic line well on the impromptu, the sustain was good as well. I'm not used to playing expensive DP's as you've probably noticed, and my reason for upgrading the ydp was for the extra polyphony, USB record etc - features that really interested me.

Im in the process of learning rach2. Another forgettable experience on the 650.

In my honest opinion the 650 was not designed for classical pianists.

Andy.

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#1979539 - 10/28/12 04:10 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Im in the process of learning rach2. Another forgettable experience on the 650.

In my honest opinion the 650 was not designed for classical pianists.

Andy.


Andy,

I would have to agree with you, as your opinion is correct.

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#1979582 - 10/28/12 07:59 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
I guess I'll have to practice up on my Schubert. In all seriousness Andy, I'm sorry that you don't find the piano sounds on the AP-650 to your liking. We haven't received these in the US yet, but based on the reaction of pianists that I've been working with using the new Privia models, the new piano sound is a gigantic leap from the previous generation and I personally do not believe sustain to be an issue at all...although I agree that this was an issue with the previous generation.

As for the notion that the new Privia and Celviano models aren't made for classical music, I'm sorry but I find this an utterly ridiculous statement. Especially from someone (PV88) that hasn't played one. Most of the pianists at Casio R&D are heavily focused on classical music. I'm aware of some world class pianists including Lang Lang who are using Privia as well.

In the end, it comes down to personal taste in an acoustic piano sound. You may like Steinway, Yamaha, Baldwin, Bosendorfer, Kawai or some other brand.

Here is one clasical pianist that I had the pleasure of filming last week.



Edited by Mike_Martin (10/28/12 08:04 AM)
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#1979596 - 10/28/12 09:17 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Mike

I've been playing the piano for over 30 years, I'm grade 8 level and have a wide repetoire. I'm essentially Yamaha bred for want of a better word. I've played clavinovas, Arius, a few of the new Roland models, and also tried my hand on a Yamaha U1 when I was doing my research. Now the Casio is good, but in my honest opinion, good in terms of features.

Rachmaninov, Chopin, schubert classics don't sound right on the 650. This is a personal observation.

Now scott Joplin rags, and the black and white rag (atwell version) do sound good, the honky Tonk tone on the 650 is impressive, but the dynamics of these pieces are in a different world to the dynamics required on the rachamninov 2nd pc and the preludes.

I guess like you say it's down to personal preference. The technology backing up the 650 is impressive. However it has flaws when I bring into discussion the dynamics of the tone on the middle range. I would even go as far as to say it actually sounds electric in this range. I was merely making a general observation.

For the price, it should be competing with the lower end Roland's and Arius models.in terms of specification...it does that easily.

But comparing the tone dynamics/sustain/decay to the 161 and the Roland rp301, the Yamaha and Roland wins hands down.

I'll stick to my original statement and would not endorse the 650 for romantic classics.

Cannot comment on the privias as I have not tried them. I cannot also comment on the 620. I can only comment on what I've played.

To re-iterate my issue..The problem is with the decay of the middle range notes, not the sustain.

I just cannot imagine Lang Lang endorsing the celviano 650.

I guess it's a case of "watch this space" as the 650 has only just been released in the UK.

Andy.

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#1979613 - 10/28/12 10:29 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi Andy,

Perhaps stupid question, but were you equally unimpressed over headphones as over the internal speakers ? Just wonder if the speakers may have spoiled the fun (perhaps to a flaw, like phase reversal) and not the actual piano sound itself ? Just asking....

J

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#1979624 - 10/28/12 11:12 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
J,

No difference. Have tried a few pairs of headphones too.

Definite sound chip design, the speakers carry some excellent bass and treble resonance with the lid lifted.

Andy

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#1979651 - 10/28/12 12:19 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Montano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 25
Surprised about the conclusion that the tonal decay is too short. From what I found on this forum I got the impression the decay was even better than on much higher priced other DPs.
Concerning the key action: Some said the action of the new Casios is impressive, while one said there isn't much difference with the former Casio models. More information will be welcome. So what about the key action compared with Yamaha's GH and Kawai's RH(II) actions?

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#1979738 - 10/28/12 04:40 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Montano - agreed. I based my research on views & comments expressed on this forum and other internet reviews. As already stated, I took a punt, impulsive I accept but viewed the build up & marketing / demo clips on youtube for the 650 as extremely encouraging.

Before ordering the 650 I played the AP-220. Granted this is the bottom end of the Casio AP-x20 series and did find the sounds quite synthetic and not comparable to the near-equivalent priced Yamahas (my local music shop only stocked the Yamaha CLPs / Arius & Casio APs). I was expecting so much more from the 650. I saw this as an all-rounder - cabable of playing all genres to satisfy an intermediate pianist like myself.

The tonal decay on the 220 wasn't brilliant, in hindsight I'd compare this now to the new AP-650.

The key action I would state is impressive, loved the ivory key effect, even the hammer resonance on the notes, I loved the USB recording, it worked flawlessly and was easy to manage. The key action on the 650 is in my opinion better than the GHS on the 141. Cant comment on the RH(II) as I've never played Kawai DPs

If only Casio addressed the tonal decay on the middle range, then I'd still be using it happily now.

But I suppose being a perfectionist it wasn't to be.

I am looking forward to reading peoples reviews of the AP-650. I guess I find myself quite lucky that I was one of the first customers using it, as I understand it's not even released until Q1 2013 in the USA.

Watch this space I suppose.

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#1979765 - 10/28/12 05:57 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Montano]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: Montano
Surprised about the conclusion that the tonal decay is too short. From what I found on this forum I got the impression the decay was even better than on much higher priced other DPs.


It is. One thing I'd recommend for anyone trying the new Privia models or the new Celviano's is to experiment with velocity curves. Setting number 3 seems to be the setting that experienced pianists prefer to the get the most out of the product in terms of dynamics and expression.

Again it comes down to personal preference but I think this may be the reason Andy wasn't getting the middle register to sing in those slower passages as I believe it does quiet well. I'll have to get a some mp3s of that Shubert piece uploaded.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#1979766 - 10/28/12 06:09 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Mike,

Did some heavy experimenting with the brilliance and velocity levels on the 650. None of these variables affect the tonal decay on the middle range.

Here is the piece I'm referring to (as an example, being played on a Kawai CN21)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBOev7vd2tQ

The melody line cannot be recreated like this on the 650 no matter what techniques are adapted or what parameters are set. The important and fundamental melodic sequence being played in the middle range cuts off far too early via the tonal decay even with sustain being utilised. It's key for me (excuse the pun) as an intermediate pianist that this is retained, not released. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

I had no issues with this on the yamaha ydp-141, which is half the price of the 650 in RRP terms.

Andy.


Edited by andy0140 (10/28/12 07:13 PM)

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#1979777 - 10/28/12 06:32 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Andy,
I'm quite familiar with the piece, I've played it. As I said, I'll get a recording up of this on a Privia / Celviano.

PS. No recordings before next week though, I'm at our office in Japan this week.


Edited by Mike_Martin (10/28/12 06:39 PM)
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#1979792 - 10/28/12 06:57 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Mike.

No worries. Fortunately I took a recording myself and banked it on the iPad, then did a direct comparison against the cheaper ydp-141, again, recorded.. The results were as stated...Worringly indifferent !

I look forward to hearing your results.

Andy.

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#1979801 - 10/28/12 07:19 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9195
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
I'm at our office in Japan this week.


Youkoso!
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1979958 - 10/29/12 05:09 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Here is the piece I'm referring to (as an example, being played on a Kawai CN21)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBOev7vd2tQ

The melody line cannot be recreated like this on the 650 no matter what techniques are adapted or what parameters are set. The important and fundamental melodic sequence being played in the middle range cuts off far too early via the tonal decay even with sustain being utilised. It's key for me (excuse the pun) as an intermediate pianist that this is retained, not released. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

I had no issues with this on the yamaha ydp-141, which is half the price of the 650 in RRP terms.

Andy.


And, here is one of the best performances you are ever likely to hear of the Schubert Impromptu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxhbAGwEYGQ

The "singing" line doesn't get much better than this!

It's being played on a Steinway "D"... not a digital.

Digitals just can't compete, in this arena.

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#1980523 - 10/30/12 01:04 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Well the Roland RP-301R arrived yesterday and I'm extremely happy with it...The Casio AP-650 was collected by the couriers and returned back to the store. I'm now awaiting a refund.

The decay tone on all notes on the Roland is as expected - excellent. A massive contrast to the Casio. Slightly limited features & polyphony capability on the Roland but I'm not overly concerned about this.

Happily, the Schubert impromptu sounds as it should, a faithfully reproducing sound which pleases the ear from start to finish. Even on the 2nd piano tone which is slightly softer it really does impress.

Personally, I'm glad to return the Casio, I dont think I could ever have lived with such a quick decay tone. A lesson learnt I guess. For an extra £200 I've made the right decision.

I'd recommend all potential Casio AP-650 owners to make sure you try before you buy.


Edited by andy0140 (10/30/12 01:04 PM)

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#1980602 - 10/30/12 03:50 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1875
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: andy0140

I'd recommend all potential Casio AP-650 owners to make sure you try before you buy.


I agree wholeheartedly.

I made a purchase of the Casio AP-620 a couple of years ago based on the hype and found the decay much too short for my taste, also.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#1980699 - 10/30/12 08:45 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: dmd]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@dmd,

You would think the new AP-650 would have improved upon the short decay with the AP-620, however, that apparently doesn't seem to be the case. The additional memory allocation was still not sufficient enough to improve the short decay.

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#1980719 - 10/30/12 09:32 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Well the Roland RP-301R arrived yesterday and I'm extremely happy with it...The Casio AP-650 was collected by the couriers and returned back to the store. I'm now awaiting a refund.

The decay tone on all notes on the Roland is as expected - excellent. A massive contrast to the Casio. Slightly limited features & polyphony capability on the Roland but I'm not overly concerned about this.

Happily, the Schubert impromptu sounds as it should, a faithfully reproducing sound which pleases the ear from start to finish. Even on the 2nd piano tone which is slightly softer it really does impress.

Personally, I'm glad to return the Casio, I dont think I could ever have lived with such a quick decay tone. A lesson learnt I guess. For an extra £200 I've made the right decision.

I'd recommend all potential Casio AP-650 owners to make sure you try before you buy.


@andy1040,

I am glad to hear that you are enjoying the new Roland RP-301R!

And, it sounds like you now have sufficient decay on this one to play the Schubert impromptu.

And, yes, try before you buy, to see if it is exactly what you want.

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#1981675 - 11/02/12 09:15 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: pv88
@dmd,

You would think the new AP-650 would have improved upon the short decay with the AP-620, however, that apparently doesn't seem to be the case. The additional memory allocation was still not sufficient enough to improve the short decay.


Guys,
There is a video of "Piano Man Chuck" online with a PX-330 and PX-350. His video proves that the decay on the PX-350 and therefor the AP-650 is almost twice as long.

PV88, you've played a AP-650? A PX-350? You claim to not like the textured keys in another thread too.. Have you played it?
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#1981721 - 11/02/12 11:40 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Mike - which particular video(s) are you referring to ?

None of PMC's videos I've found are testing / proving the decay tone length on the middle range in respect to delicate classical pieces of music, such as the Impromptu.

These videos just show off the PX-350 (and AP-650)'s best features with a collection of songs & tones that do not address the point I've been making.

There is still a jury out.

Andy

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#1981792 - 11/02/12 02:23 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
mrfancypants Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 9
I think Mike is talking about this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA&feature=plcp

There is another interesting video here comparing some of the new Casios:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8KsmD0xneY&feature=related

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#1984609 - 11/09/12 11:57 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Mike - have you had an opportunity to play the Schubert on the AP-650 yet ? Be very intersted to hear your views on it.

Andy

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#1984734 - 11/09/12 06:02 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Mike - have you had an opportunity to play the Schubert on the AP-650 yet ? Be very intersted to hear your views on it.

Andy


Was wondering if Mike has the score for this piece?

All six pages, here:

1) http://imgur.com/OhnMo
2) http://imgur.com/6ALs5
3) http://imgur.com/cb77C
4) http://imgur.com/8w2or
5) http://imgur.com/sNm5z
6) http://imgur.com/BIJpZ

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#1984881 - 11/10/12 03:38 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Mike is just here to help out on his own account. I don't think he's obliged to anything. I think so far he's been very helpful and forthcoming on all questions people have about the new (and older) Casio's.

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#1985491 - 11/11/12 07:37 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Guys I'm on the road 4 out of the last five weeks and will only get home for two weekends during that time. I'll get a recording sone ASAP but with the travel I have limited access to product where I can make a recording.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#1985515 - 11/11/12 08:32 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 624
Hello Mike, did you bring up the issue with R&D about the uneven spacing found on the newer models. I followed your advice and contacted the retailer for a replacement and am getting one, but I think some consideration has to be given to this issue.

Having newer piano sounds and nicer keys are important and the piano is fantastic, but it is important as well to focus on consistency along the keybed.
_________________________
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Casio PX-130
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#1985596 - 11/12/12 03:54 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2361
Loc: UK
Show me a sub $1000 board that does not have reports of key spacing irregularities? On this forum there are similar reports for boards costing above $2000 from other manufacturers! Not saying its right, but Casio are not alone. There's an ill defined point of pleasing aesthetics, versus function, nit picking and and defect. Same applies to an acoustic.

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#1985827 - 11/12/12 05:53 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: spanishbuddha]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 624
I must have been more fortunate with the other 3 I have; I am getting my replacement and hope to drop the subject as I know I am probably being a pain about it lol
_________________________
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Casio PX-130
Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280

Rokit KRK 6 monitors
MXL V67G microphone

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#1999239 - 12/14/12 02:05 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Did some heavy experimenting with the brilliance and velocity levels on the 650. None of these variables affect the tonal decay on the middle range.

Here is the piece I'm referring to (as an example, being played on a Kawai CN21)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBOev7vd2tQ

The melody line cannot be recreated like this on the 650 no matter what techniques are adapted or what parameters are set. The important and fundamental melodic sequence being played in the middle range cuts off far too early via the tonal decay even with sustain being utilised. It's key for me (excuse the pun) as an intermediate pianist that this is retained, not released.


I tried all of the same settings on the Casio AP-620 although nothing seemed to improve the lack of tonal decay in the samples. I now have a Kawai EP3 (which is $300 less than the Casio) as it has sufficient decay.

There is no way you can sustain the melodic line properly in the Schubert impromptu (score is linked to, above) as this is not possible on the Casio AP-620. Looks like the decay is not long enough with the AP-650, too.

This clearly indicates that the new (3x) memory allocation for the Casio AP-650 is still not enough, as the short "tonal decay" you mention has always been an Achilles' heel for Casio, in all of their models.

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#1999249 - 12/14/12 03:36 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Damien Salvador Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 7
Loc: France
I bought an AP-450 a month ago, enjoying it.
It made a recording for the DPBSD project, I am unable to analyze it, but it is available at :
http://www.mediafire.com/?wg1knutcd5md0vh

I did not detect a shocking decay when playing (my reference is the end of JS Bach Fuga II with a sustained left hand, no pedal, while right hand is playing the theme)

(I'm playing with all defaults settings)


Edited by Damien Salvador (12/14/12 03:37 AM)

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#1999259 - 12/14/12 04:12 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Damien Salvador]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Please note "andy0140" above mentioned it is not possible to correctly sustain/play the long melodic lines in the Schubert impromptu, with the AP-650.

This is the same reason I now have a Kawai EP3 (instead of the Casio AP-620) as the Casio was not able to sustain the melodic lines in the impromptu, and, other pieces.

And, the overall resonance is too thin/sparse in the Casio AP-620 with heavier chordal passages.

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#1999273 - 12/14/12 06:01 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
I'm holding firm on this one.

Damien Salvador - am I missing something on your demo ? Its just a sample of single notes across the range being played individually. There is no real melody in that MP3.

I'm still waiting to hear Mike Martin's rendition of the Impromptu on the 650 which was offered in this thread.

And...I dont have this issue on the Roland RP301R.

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#1999296 - 12/14/12 07:41 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Damien Salvador Offline
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Registered: 11/19/12
Posts: 7
Loc: France
andy01040
No you're not missing anything smile This is the recording of the midi file for DPBSD from an adjoining thread :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103/1.html

This is definitively not meant to be listened as a background music for an intimate dinner !

Dewster uses these recordings to make comparisons about the sampling technologies for different DP. So if you want to measure decay objectively, you've got a reference point as there are several Roland recordings (did not see the 301R):
http://www.mediafire.com/?231dpr3ctpa8r#77vy8y6z231yz

What I'm saying is that I did not detect an outrageous loss when playing, contrary to what I could experience on my parents (very) old clavinova from the late 80's.

My personal test was on BWV 847, fuga II (but no recording):
http://www.free-scores.com/partitions_telecharger.php?partition=466
for the last 2 measures which are playable without rushing (my perception, mileage may vary)

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#2000060 - 12/15/12 10:55 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
I'm still waiting to hear Mike Martin's rendition of the Impromptu on the 650 which was offered in this thread.


Doubt that Mike will be able to add any further decay (or, sustain) to the melodic line in the Impromptu, as I already know this is an inherent problem of the AP-620, too.

As you (Andy) have already confirmed the same lack of decay with the AP-650.

Wonder why the new (3x) memory allocation was not sufficient?

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#2010102 - 01/06/13 03:50 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Andy,
I'm quite familiar with the piece, I've played it. As I said, I'll get a recording up of this on a Privia / Celviano.

PS. No recordings before next week though, I'm at our office in Japan this week.



Mike - any chance of a recording of the impromptu yet on the 650 ? Still v interested to hear your reaction and opinion. Or do I take it by a lack of response my judgement speaks volumes ?

Andy.


Edited by andy0140 (01/06/13 03:52 PM)

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#2010138 - 01/06/13 04:52 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@andy0140,

You are right about the decay not being sufficient with the AP-650 as it appears to behave very similarly to the AP-620 which also has very short decay.

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#2010921 - 01/07/13 11:32 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Guys sorry for the delay.

This clip was done on a PX-350 using the default Concert Grand preset. The AP-650 to be honest would sound a little different due to it's sympathetic resonance and key release features, but I'm traveling so much and haven't been near an AP-650.

Schubert Improptu Op90 No3
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Casio America

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#2011370 - 01/08/13 05:54 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Mike - appreciate the response & upload. You can indeed play the piece quite well - No doubt.

Did you really enjoy playing that piece on the Casio ??? Because the sound is so very synthetic and displeasing to the ear as my original post clearly stated - that decay is unsuitable for these sort of pieces of music.

I've recorded my own copy of this here :

Schubert Impromptu in G Flat Major Op90 No 3 - Andy Salter

Admittedly there are a few minor mistakes in my recording as this was done live but I hope that my rendition clearly demonstrates the vast differences in sound & decay/sustain.

Andy


Edited by andy0140 (01/08/13 06:28 PM)

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#2011379 - 01/08/13 06:24 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Kawai James Online   content
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Registered: 09/06/07
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Some people are never satisfied...
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#2011392 - 01/08/13 07:03 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Kawai James]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2361
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Some people are never satisfied...

I preferred the Casio wink

Since the first was on a PX350, and I assume the second on RP301 (?) we're not hearing a comparison of similarly priced, or market segment products. There are as usual a number of unknown factors too such as instrument settings, recording, player ability, etc.


Nicely played, I thought, by both.


Edited by spanishbuddha (01/08/13 07:04 PM)

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#2011469 - 01/08/13 10:24 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Kawai James]
KLSinCT Offline
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Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Some people are never satisfied...


+1!

K.
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#2011524 - 01/09/13 01:50 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@andy0140,

It sounds like you did a very nice job with recording the Schubert Impromptu as this is a difficult piece in which to bring out the melodic line, and, I applaud your effort on it.

Decided to record a short excerpt myself, however, the reason I was not able to play the entire piece is that I have been having an issue with some muscles in my back (tightening up when playing), so I have to limit how much I exert myself, both at the keyboard and computer while typing.

Now wearing a wrist brace for support on my right hand due to strain, there. Have just ordered a new computer/office chair which I should have by the end of the week to try and alleviate these problems while typing and at the piano.

Schubert Impromptu - Op. 90, No. 3 - excerpt:

[17 seconds of silence before playing starts]

https://www.box.com/s/3uhyiz8fa3w1qdpeithm

Extra note:

Replaced the CA95 recording with another at the Kawai EP3 as I thought this digital has the best decay for the piece.

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#2011627 - 01/09/13 09:23 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Vampire Killer Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 10
@andy0140, would you please let me know how you enjoy the keyboard and external speakers of RP-301?

I had been waiting for the PX-358 (PX-350 Chinese Special) for a few months but start to consider investing twice for an RP-301/F120.


Edited by Vampire Killer (01/09/13 09:26 AM)

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#2011649 - 01/09/13 10:36 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
2 Awards from me:

1. for Excellent playing
2. best instrument's sound of the topic (Your CA95?) - Most balanced and natural.

Andy's playing was nice as well, I thought it was the Roland VPiano Grand. Sound of which not that pleasing.

Mike's instrument made his job more tough - but in another price league.

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#2011656 - 01/09/13 10:55 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
PV88:
Do you know NadaChair?.I have it and found almost ideal for piano playing (for rehearsal; I have very serious herniated disk in the neck.) It is a must to try if You don't know it. Unlike a chair with back support it allows an active sitting while providing support. On a fix chair you are not leaning back!

The only inconvenience is with pedalling, which was critical for You especially with Your CA95 (Pedal depth). I developed a special unorthodox pedalling techniques:
1. pulling foot out of my slippers but rest my heel on it
2. on my old CA51 (now sold) I did pedalling with the heel, while resting the front part of the foot on the pedal bridge (which the CA95 doesn't have unfortunately.)
_________________________
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#2011670 - 01/09/13 11:33 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Temperament]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
My recording was done on a Roland RP301R with maximum reverb and -5 on brilliance. This piano retails around the £1250 price mark.

The Casio AP-650 (which has an identical decay tone to the PX-350) retails at £1099.

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#2011681 - 01/09/13 11:57 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Nice playing, I would say even professional.
Playability and sound control of the 301R seemes to be good - just were much synthetic details in the sound - I thought for that that it must have been a modelled instrument.

I could try the AP450 in a big shop in Vienna (Austria), and the sound was very similar to this one on the PX-350. Keyboard action was better as sound quality. Playability (with built-in sound module) suffered slightly for some hard to control high velocity notes - perhaps you can accustom to it and not a problem at all, or might be easily to control by adjusting the velocity curve. (Maybe not a matter with SW instruments either.)

Some experiences with Casio xxx50 keyboard and VSTi-s? They all have the same action!


Edited by Temperament (01/09/13 12:04 PM)
Edit Reason: beginning was cut off

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#2011682 - 01/09/13 12:12 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
xorbe Offline
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Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Man I cannot believe the differences between the Kawai / Roland / Casio samples above. The latter doesn't sound so bad until put up against the two formers.


Edited by xorbe (01/26/13 03:32 AM)

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#2011699 - 01/09/13 01:09 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
ONfrank Offline
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Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Anyone find it funny that we have poster A saying piano x sounds "very synthetic and displeasing to the ear" and then posts example from piano y to "clearly demonstrate the vast differences in sound and decay" followed by poster B saying that piano y has sound that was "not that pleasing" and "much synthetic details in the sound"?

I sure do. They all have a long way to go.

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#2011895 - 01/09/13 08:30 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Temperament]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@Temperament,

Thanks for the info you have given above, and, it just occurred to me that part of the problem (with the back muscle tension) at the CA95 is due to pedaling as the pedals are indeed too close/forward to the player, for the most part. Might try elevating the heel of my foot to make pedaling a little easier. Having proper posture while sitting and making sure the entire body is balanced (and in correct alignment) may help to alleviate these issues.

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#2012193 - 01/10/13 10:32 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: ONfrank]
Temperament Offline
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Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I was poster B.

Some explanations to be more specific: x: Casio xxx50, y:Roland SN sound.

I found "y" was simply that much better that it was a pitty the percieved synthetical details deterioreted the otherwise convincing sound experiment. I concluded it must be some modelled source, which is partially true due to the fact, that SN (SuperNatural sound of Roland) is a mix of sampling/modelling. (To simplify it: sampled attack and instead of the looped sample fragments modelled tails.)

The xxx50 sound I found generally much more artificial (not as in parts of the music and not in details). But to be honest not bad for the category they are positioned - and their keyboard action is honestly a real merit of them.

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#2012721 - 01/11/13 11:01 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Has anyone actually measured sound decay rates on various digital and acoustic pianos to see what differences exist? (Use oscilloscope and/or digital traces.)

Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.

At one point, I was seriously considering buying a Kawai CN34, but Kawai makes it difficult (and more expensive) to buy their pianos unless you can physically visit a dealer. (The nearest Kawai dealer is 200 miles away and is a small store.) Instead, I will be buying a Casio Celviano AP 650 as soon as they are available. (Assuming prices for telephone and/or online orders are reasonable.)

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#2012758 - 01/11/13 12:20 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Online   content
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Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1875
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
Has anyone actually measured sound decay rates on various digital and acoustic pianos to see what differences exist? (Use oscilloscope and/or digital traces.)

Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.

At one point, I was seriously considering buying a Kawai CN34, but Kawai makes it difficult (and more expensive) to buy their pianos unless you can physically visit a dealer. (The nearest Kawai dealer is 200 miles away and is a small store.) Instead, I will be buying a Casio Celviano AP 650 as soon as they are available. (Assuming prices for telephone and/or online orders are reasonable.)


I would reiterate what has been expounded at length within this forum, regularly. Please ... do not purchase anything without playing it first. Especially a piano which may have some issues which have been suggested through this forum.
_________________________
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2012895 - 01/11/13 03:11 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Unfortunately I don’t have the option of playing a digital piano first. There is a local Yamaha dealer which would be great if I were going to buy a Clavinova. Outside of that, it’s 200 miles to the nearest piano dealer.

If you use the IRS travel allowance of $0.565 per mile ( http://www.irs.gov/uac/2013-Standard-Mileage-Rates-Up-1-Cent-per-Mile-for-Business,-Medical-and-Moving ), it would cost me 400 x $0.565 = $226.00 (round trip miles) just to visit a dealer. And Casio and Kawai dealers are 200 miles away in different directions.

The only guidelines that I have are what I can find on the Internet. The primary issue with earlier Priva’s and Celviano’s was the decay time. PianoManChuck’s video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA is pretty convincing in regard to that problem.

If anyone has a contact with a Kawai dealer who will give me a good price on a Kawai CN34, please get in touch with me. (I’m still open to a Kawai option.) Note, I’m primarily interested in classical music, and used to play at a fairly advanced level. (Some 35 years ago.)

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#2012918 - 01/11/13 03:59 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Online   content
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Registered: 04/15/09
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Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
The primary issue with earlier Priva’s and Celviano’s was the decay time. PianoManChuck’s video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA is pretty convincing in regard to that problem.


Apparently, that demo mean't more to you than the experience of the person who started this thread. Maybe you got in late to this thread and didn't read the earlier comments. You may wish to do so.


Here is the opening comment to this thread ...

Quote:

Received last weekend.

Packaged up today. Returning to the store. After all the good reviews of the AP620 I took a punt and went for the 650 without trying it out first. Yes, a gamble in itself. I'm upgrading from a Yamaha YDP-141.

Understatement to say that I'm extremely disappointed with the 650. Had high hopes. Main issue is the tonal decay (specifically in regards to the piano sound) in the middle range of the keyboard. It's just too fast and unrealistic. Delicate classical pieces (I'm an intermediate pianist) just do not cut it (example Schubert impromptu in g flat) and it annoys me how Casio can market a piano with so much focus on the keyboard effect without noticing that the grand piano tone isnt realistic. The accompaniments are also distinctly average.


I'm expecting delivery of a Roland RP-301R as already played this when I was looking around....and cannot wait to read people's experiences of the Casio AP650. I appear to be one of the first to air my views.

Rant over, hopefully a word of warning to other potential 650 buyers, and perhaps to introduce myself....I'm from the UK.


The reason I am so adament about this is because I did the exact same thing, albeit with the AP620.

I wish you good luck.


Edited by dmd (01/11/13 04:03 PM)
_________________________
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2012959 - 01/11/13 05:03 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: DBill
Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.

That is an interesting observation ... it would be quieter too though, yeah?! I need to practice at that elevation, though wrt to my running hobby, heh. #CLEVEL (har har!)

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#2013013 - 01/11/13 06:37 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: xorbe]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Originally Posted By: xorbe
Originally Posted By: DBill
Note: I live at 7,400 ft. above sea level where the air density is 25% thinner than at sea level. The decay rate for an acoustic piano would be noticeably slower here as the energy transfer rate from vibrating string to air sound waves would be less.

That is an interesting observation ... it would be quieter too though, yeah?! I need to practice at that elevation, though wrt to my running hobby, heh. #CLEVEL (har har!)


To xorbe

It would be interesting to get actual sound energy measurements from identical pianos with identical note playing strength at my altitude (7,400 ft. above sea level) vs. sea level. The calculations below derive a difference of about 1 1/4 decibels between sound generated at a given power level at 7,4000 feet above sea level vs. sea level.

Sound intensity is usually measured in decibels which is a logarithmic scale. For example, sound at 90 decibels has 10 times the power as sound at 80 decibels. Sound at 100 decibels has 10 times the power as sound at 90 decibels and 100 times the power of sound at 80 decibels. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

For calculations, let’s assume that you generate 90 decibels of sound with a piano chord at sea level. If you use the Wikipedia table, this is equivalent to a “power ratio” of 1,000,000,000. To convert from a “power ratio” to decibels take the log (base 10) of the “power ratio” and then multiply by 10.

If you reduce the “power ratio” by 25% due to thinner air at higher elevations, then the “power ratio” becomes 750,000,000. This reduction in the strength of sound waves should take place for sound generated by piano strings, amplifiers, or any other source.

To convert this new “power ratio” to decibels, we again take the log (base 10) and then multiply by 10. This yields a decibel level of 88.75.

Thus perceived sound is weaker at this altitude, although it would be difficult to tell the difference with ordinary hearing – especially if you are trying to remember sounds from whenever you used to be at sea level.


To pv88 and andy

I've actually gone through all the posts on this thread which is why I'm paying attention to the decay rate. I've never played the Shubert, but I used to play Rachmaninoff's C Sharp Minor Prelude. It is one of the pieces that I will be going back to - and it runs into a sustain/decay test real quick. Basically, there is a price trade-off involved between the 650 and the CN34.

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#2013023 - 01/11/13 06:56 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
DBill - I'm also familiar with the Rach Prelude in C# minor. Although I never tested this with the casio, I'd be expecting poor results again when the C# minor chord progression starts after the octave introduction. Another example from personal experience could be the Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No 2 Mov 1 Introduction (believe this is known as the "Bell Toll"). The chords will decay far to fast on the Casio.

Bottom line here is the unacceptable "initial" decay (applies from what I've seen & heard to the AP-650 and PX-350). I've been using the AP-650 and the Schubert Impromptu to demonstrate this. There are a lot more pieces that could be demonstrated where this decay is unacceptable, however there are pieces where this decay problem would be considered not applicable, a good example (from personal experience / repertoire) to this would be the Maple Leaf Rag.

Agreed on the price trade off between the 650 and the CN34, but there is little in trade off between the AP-650 and the Roland RP301R.


Edited by andy0140 (01/11/13 07:08 PM)

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#2013024 - 01/11/13 06:58 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: DBill
To pv88 and andy

I've actually gone through all the posts on this thread which is why I'm paying attention to the decay rate. I've never played the Shubert, but I used to play Rachmaninoff's C Sharp Minor Prelude. It is one of the pieces that I will be going back to - and it runs into a sustain/decay test real quick. Basically, there is a price trade-off involved between the 650 and the CN34.


I am pretty sure that most Kawai's (including the CN34) will have a better overall sustain/decay rate as compared with the Casio's. Having played both brands, the choice is clear.

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#2013110 - 01/11/13 09:55 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
It’s going to come down to “best bang for the buck”. If Kawai brings their CN34 price down to within $300 of the Casio 650, then I’ll go for the Kawai CN34. There are still several weeks to go before it’s decision time.

Here are some calculations for “fair” U. S. prices based on current UK prices. (A “fair” price is what you might expect under free-market, multiple-store competition.)

Advertised UK price for a Kawai CN34 = 1199 UK Pounds
Advertised UK price for a Casio Celviano 650 = 1099 UK Pounds

Price as quoted at http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-cn34...-digital-pianos = 1,199 British Pounds
Includes piano stool, headphones & free delivery.

All prices in UK stores include a 20% value added tax.
https://www.gov.uk/vat/overview (Value added tax = 20%)
https://www.gov.uk/vat/where-you-see-vat “it’s already included in the price”
To find the price before the VAT is applied, divide the final price by 1.20
Price of Kawai CN34 before VAT = 1199 / 1.20 = 999.17 British Pounds

To calculate the U.S. dollar rate for 999.17 British Pounds, enter the British Pound amount in the top box and click on “Pounds to US $.
http://www.dollars2pounds.com/

The conversion rate as of 1/11/2013 was 1.6130 which gives a U.S. $ amount of $1611.66.
This is the “fair” U. S. $ amount for a Kawai CN34 including headphones and free delivery. (Note, the conversion rate changes frequently.)

The equivalent calculation for the Casio Celviano 650 is based on an advertised price of 1,099 British pounds. http://www.normans.co.uk/p-4831-casio-ap-650-celviano-88-note-digital-piano.aspx Similar calculations yield a U. S. dollar price of $1,477.23 for the Casio 650.

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#2013133 - 01/11/13 11:08 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Online   content
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Registered: 04/15/09
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Loc: Pennsylvania
Dbill: In your calculations, don't forget to include the cost of ending up with a digital piano that will not perform to expectations ... Priceless !
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Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2013175 - 01/12/13 01:28 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
bluebilly Offline
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Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 437
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Mike,

Did some heavy experimenting with the brilliance and velocity levels on the 650. None of these variables affect the tonal decay on the middle range.

Here is the piece I'm referring to (as an example, being played on a Kawai CN21)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBOev7vd2tQ

The melody line cannot be recreated like this on the 650 no matter what techniques are adapted or what parameters are set. The important and fundamental melodic sequence being played in the middle range cuts off far too early via the tonal decay even with sustain being utilised. It's key for me (excuse the pun) as an intermediate pianist that this is retained, not released. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from.

I had no issues with this on the yamaha ydp-141, which is half the price of the 650 in RRP terms.

Andy.

In the comments below that video it says the piano is being played through "Pianoteq", perhaps that helps?

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#2013648 - 01/12/13 08:36 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: bluebilly]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Some information on the new Casio Celvianos (to be introduced in the U.S. at the January NAMM)

AP-250: Available in black or brown: MSRP $1399.99
AP-450: Available in black or brown: MSRP $1699.99
AP-650: Available in black: MSRP $1999.99

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#2013720 - 01/12/13 11:35 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Based on the digital database at Piano Buyer
( http://www.pianobuyer.com/show_diginew.php ),
retail prices for Casio’s new Celviano pianos should be $400 to $450 under the MSRP.

The best bet for where you will be able to buy the new Celvianos (including online) is the “Guitar Center” chain. http://www.guitarcenter.com/Casio.gc

If you want to find the nearest Casio store, Casio has a "Store Locator" at http://www.casiomusicgear.com/wheretobuy . Most of these dealers are “Guitar Center” # _ _ _ . (Fill in a number)

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#2013780 - 01/13/13 04:38 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@DBill,

The Kawai CN34 may cost a little more than the Casio AP-650, although the behavior of the decay/sustain/sounds are going to be so much better with the Kawai, as I had the Casio AP-620 and the decay was simply too short.

Andy0140 has told us that the AP-650 has the same issue with the short decay (not at all acoustic-like) and the overall harmonic resonance is thin and not full enough when blending multiple notes in chords and arpeggios.

Just trying to give you sufficient warning so that you are not disappointed.

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#2013899 - 01/13/13 12:07 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
I’m still trying to get as much info as I can on the Celviano 650 vs. the Kawai CN34. I can hear a difference between the two recordings of the Shubert, but to me the Casio is not objectionable. Any plus/minus evaluation will of course vary from one person to another.

There are differences between various digitals and acoustics, but I think a lot of peoples’ preferences are based on what they get used to. Once you are used to a particular instrument, then everything else is going to sound a little strange.

I learned to play on a 1920s era Steck baby grand. Stecks were good pianos at that time. (Recent Stecks are a pile of C . . . Oops; this is a public forum so make that “organic fertilizer”.) However, it’s been 35 years since I’ve had a chance to play anything. A 35-year gap will erase any “ear preference” that you might have had. My feeling is that I would quickly adapt to any differences that might exist between various pianos. Thus my buying decision will be based on “best bang for the buck” as opposed to trying to find the “perfect piano”.

At one time I was also considering the Kawai CE220, but it’s dropped out of contention. One of the things I want to try is “Jamaican Rumba” using a marimba, but the CE220 doesn’t have a marimba.

I’m still getting price quotes as much as possible from various Kawai dealers for the CN34, but as of now I’m leaning strongly toward the 650.

One of the other things that I ran into is that Mike Martin is a very busy guy. He’s actually General Manager of Marketing, Electronic Musical Instruments at Casio, and posts on a lot of other forums besides this one. He has also worked for Yamaha and Kurzwell in the past. You can throw in setting up things for NAMM as a current project.

Finally, I do have a request for Mike. The rumors that I’ve run into are saying that Internet retailers such as Kraft Music, Musicians Friend, etc. are going to be locked out of the new Celvianos. I don’t know how much influence you might have with the high mucky mucks at Casio, but I’ve been in contact with some of the people at Kraft. They seem like good guys. If only for “free market” competition purposes, it would be nice to keep them inside the loop.

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#2015198 - 01/15/13 11:40 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: DBill
Some information on the new Casio Celvianos (to be introduced in the U.S. at the January NAMM)

AP-250: Available in black or brown: MSRP $1399.99
AP-450: Available in black or brown: MSRP $1699.99
AP-650: Available in black: MSRP $1999.99


Looks like a pretty big price jump for the new AP-650, since you can still get the AP-620 for $1,399.99. That's a $600 increase between the AP-620 and AP-650.

Or, that means you can only buy a new AP-250 for the price of an AP-620, which has far less features. AP-250 ($1,399.99) = AP-620 ($1,399.99) - same price?

That is like saying the less featured model is equal to and costs the same as the flagship?

For a digital in the 2K range and above, look elsewhere.

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#2015214 - 01/16/13 12:43 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
You guys are comparing Suggested Retail Price to existing MAP prices, not entirely a good comparison.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2020338 - 01/24/13 01:04 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Mike has been busy! getting the http://www.casiomusicgear.com/ website up to date for the new Celvianos. For example, see: http://www.casiomusicgear.com/products/menu_celviano

Also the “Where to buy” “Store Locator” ( http://www.casiomusicgear.com/wheretobuy ) has been updated in the last few days as a new dealer has been added near where I live.

There have been some posts in pianoworld’s forums that have downplayed Casio vs. other digital piano manufacturers, but as far as I am concerned Casio (including the new Privias ) offers the “best bang for the buck”. In the past, the primary concern was the sustain time (decay rate) for Celvianos and Privas, but PianoManChuck’s video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA is pretty convincing that the new x50 models have greatly improved that problem.

For anyone interested in the new Priva Pro PX-5S, there’s a new page giving the specs for it. http://www.casiomusicgear.com/products/menu_privia/PX-5S

I will be buying a Celviano AP 650 just as soon as a few competitive prices show up. (Probably around $1,500 +/- for the AP 650.)

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#2020947 - 01/25/13 06:44 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
dkong99 Offline
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Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 43
I also believe that for "bang for the buck" nothing beats Casio. Most of the detractors are comparing a $1500 with one several times the cost which frankly isn't a fair or valid comparison. For example,to most people an additional $800 or so is significant, granted, if money weren't an object there would be a Mason & Hamlin Model AA in my living room, but since it is, the AP-650 would certainly work (and being a digital, would actually FIT in my living room). Once the AP 650 is released I will be looking at one to have along with my PX-330.

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#2021240 - 01/25/13 04:48 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: dkong99]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Please do keep in mind that even the latest Casio currently available (AP-650) still has issues with its sounds, particularly in the short decay and lack of overall harmonic resonance (which can be heard with heavier chords) as this has already been pointed out by the OP (andy0140) in this thread.

There are other digitals at a similar price point that will give you far better performance in these areas, otherwise you will have to deal with a less than acoustic like sound with the rapid decay.

I think that almost anyone (even with a less than discerning ear) can clearly hear the deficiency of the Casio's resonance, as that is why I had to trade in my AP-620 for another digital.

I consider the Kawai EP3 to be a good comparison to the AP-620, as the piano sounds have far better decay and overall resonance. The EP3 doesn't have as many extra features as the AP-620 does, however, I was only concerned with the piano sounds and at $300 less than the Casio it was a no-brainer.

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#2021265 - 01/25/13 05:14 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
dkong99 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 43
Not to be rude, but aren't you the same one confusing MSRP with actual price paid?

A digital is NOT an acoustic no matter how much you want it to be, they're two different instruments.

Everyone has different requirements and tastes, what may be a deal breaker for one might be of no consequence to another
and it IS rude to assume everyone has the same agenda as yourself.

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#2021310 - 01/25/13 06:23 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: dkong99]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Here is the price comparison between the Casio and Kawai as follows:

1) Casio AP-620: $1,399 (US) - online (paid) price - not MSRP

2) Kawai EP3: $1,099 (US) - online (paid) price - not MSRP

As you can see there is a differential of $300 between the two (as the EP3 costs less) as I bought them here:

1) Casio AP-620:

http://www.samash.com/p/Casio_Celviano%2...2023#TabSection

2) Kawai EP3:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EP3Kawai

Also, be sure to read the "reviews" on each digital above as this gives a clear indication of what others think of them. Also, I gave my review of the Kawai EP3, however, I did not give the review for the Casio AP-620.

And, there is a good cross section of reviews at guitarcenter.com, as there are seven (7) worth reading, here:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Casio-AP-620...559-i1516175.gc

I have only stated what I believe to be a real flaw in Casio's digitals which is the lack of proper decay and resonance. Since there are other options I tend to advise folks in that direction.

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#2021314 - 01/25/13 06:32 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
dkong99 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 43
Indeed, you have stated your views ad nausum.

Just a thought:

Neither Mike Martin nor Kawai James ever posts anything disparaging about the other's products.

My final conclusion:

The important thing is what the purchaser thinks, not what others do.

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#2021335 - 01/25/13 07:22 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
ONfrank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: pv88
Here is the price comparison between the Casio and Kawai as follows:

1) Casio AP-620: $1,399 (US) - online (paid) price - not MSRP

2) Kawai EP3: $1,099 (US) - online (paid) price - not MSRP

As you can see there is a differential of $300 between the two (as the EP3 costs less) as I bought them here:

1) Casio AP-620:

http://www.samash.com/p/Casio_Celviano%2...2023#TabSection

2) Kawai EP3:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EP3Kawai

Also, be sure to read the "reviews" on each digital above as this gives a clear indication of what others think of them. Also, I gave my review of the Kawai EP3, however, I did not give the review for the Casio AP-620.

And, there is a good cross section of reviews at guitarcenter.com, as there are seven (7) worth reading, here:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Casio-AP-620...559-i1516175.gc

I have only stated what I believe to be a real flaw in Casio's digitals which is the lack of proper decay and resonance. Since there are other options I tend to advise folks in that direction.


Shouldn't you be comparing the EP3 to something like the $500 PX-130 or PX-150? Everyone knows the cabinets are overpriced.

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#2021430 - 01/26/13 12:34 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Note to dkong99

If you want more info on the Celviano 650, you can download the User’s Manual here.
http://support.casio.com/manualfile.php?rgn=1&cid=008001015

The 650 has 14 different “pianos” which PianoManChuck demos here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgtpUCPDPUs
Note that the sound engine in the Privia 350 is the same as what the 650 has. Each of these piano tones can be further refined.

The 650 has 250 different tones (electric pianos, organs, etc.) which should cover just about every musical instrument that you might want to experiment with. However, if you want to try musical tesla coils http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Tesla_coil , you’re out of luck.
(For an electrifying performance of “In the Hall of the Mountain King” see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAhKkPUo_A
Isn’t it “amazing” that they don’t have groupies sneaking up on the stage.)

The rapid decay time was an issue in earlier versions of Privas and Celvianos, but as far as I’m concerned the decay time is OK in the new Privas and Celvianos. (x50 series) For additional information, run a Google search using:
Privia decay

Finally, I’m looking for a digital piano that fits in as a piece of furniture as well as being “the best bang for the buck”.

I will be buying a Casio Celviano 650 as soon as they are available. If for some reason I don’t like it, there’s no law that says I can’t buy something else a year or two from now.

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#2021443 - 01/26/13 01:03 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dkong99 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/03/12
Posts: 43
My thoughts exactly. Unless one actually tries the AP-650 in person, it is silly to pass judgment.

And you're right,

[quote][/quote]I will be buying a Casio Celviano 650 as soon as they are available. If for some reason I don’t like it, there’s no law that says I can’t buy something else a year or two from now.

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#2021456 - 01/26/13 01:35 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: ONfrank]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: ONfrank
Shouldn't you be comparing the EP3 to something like the $500 PX-130 or PX-150? Everyone knows the cabinets are overpriced.


Actually, since the EP3 costs $1,100 and the AP-620 is only $1,400 they are pretty close in price. Also, there is no question of the EP3 having nice long sustain in the samples as the overall harmonic resonance is very good. What I heard from the AP-620's speakers is not nearly at the same level of realism as the EP3's which sound a lot like an acoustic grand. The decay in the AP-620 was in fact so short that I simply could not render many classical pieces correctly, with the 1st movement of the "Moonlight" sonata being yet another example.

Yes, you pay more for the cabinets in the Celviano models, however, I can assure you that the new AP-650's samples are still not long enough, as andy1040 and I have compared notes on our digitals. You do get a louder speaker system in the AP-650 (compared to the Privias) although it remains the same as the AP-620's speakers. The louder speakers (at 60 watts) do not help the piano to project its short samples which are not sufficient. Aside from the extremely short decay (and, thin harmonic resonance) the AP-650 does have a ton of sounds and features, none of which improves the piano samples.

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#2021458 - 01/26/13 01:39 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9195
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, just to clarify, have you played the AP-650, or any of the new Casio models?

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2021462 - 01/26/13 01:52 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Kawai James]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
I have previously owned the AP-620, PX-130, and, CDP-100. Please note that Casio states they have expanded the capacity of the AP-650's memory 3x (times). This new memory allocation has not appeared to help much with the decay or sustain time, as the OP (andy0140) has mentioned.

There is no question that the AP-650's decay and sustain may be a little (or, slightly) longer than the AP-620's, but the OP had to return his AP-650 due to the very short decay. I traded in my AP-620 for the same reasons.

The similarities should be clear (as for both digitals) that the overall sustain and decay is not quite sufficient in either model. I would not buy an AP-650, knowing this fact.

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#2021506 - 01/26/13 05:51 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
jrcallan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 364
Loc: Pennsylvania
No, pv, you've actually stated someone else's observations.

Careful with that sort of thing. You might find yourself with no cred at all.

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#2021709 - 01/26/13 02:46 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Note to Kawai James

The other piano that I was seriously considering was a Kawai CN34. The deal breaker here was the lack of competitive bidding by Kawai dealers. (And this is forced from higher up in the company.) I was able to get quotes a little better than the “Buy Now” prices at http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CNxx4/cn34.html , but not anywhere near what a straight currency conversion plus VAT adjustment would give from a UK dealer.

The CN34 is a good machine, and I would rate it slightly better than a Celviano 650. If the price were only “slightly higher” than that for a Casio 650 (estimated at $1,500 +/-), I would have gone the CN34 route.

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#2021739 - 01/26/13 04:29 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
DBill - confused how you can rate the AP-650 when you haven't played it yet, or are you going by published spec which on paper looks fantastic...

Re-iterating to anyone interested in the AP-650....Make sure you play it first before handing over your hard earned cash !

Andy





Edited by andy0140 (01/26/13 04:31 PM)

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#2021770 - 01/26/13 05:15 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
To Andy

I have to use specs, reviews, and video clips for any evaluations that I make as the nearest major dealers for Casio and Kawai are 200 miles away - in different directions. There is a "Best Buy" that has recently shown up as a Casio dealer only 40 miles away, but they don't even advertise a Celviano 620 never mind a 650. Thus there isn't any practical way that I could compare playing them - especially as a side by side comparison.

From what I can see, you are the only one on this thread that has actually played a 650 (vs. a 620), so I do give your opinion more weight. However the clincher (at least for me) for the decay evaluation is PianoManChuck's comparison of a Privia 330 vs. a Privia 350. The Celviano 650 has the same sound engine as the Privia 350 which is different from the 330 (and the Celviano 620).

The Kawai CN34 seems to be a slightly better machine so if I could get it at nearly the same price as a 650, I would go for the CN34.

One other factor to consider is that the piano will go in a large room (25-foot ceiling - open to other rooms on both floors). The 650 has an edge here as it has more powerful speakers. You can add external speakers to either piano, but this would add to the price evaluation.

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#2021794 - 01/26/13 05:58 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
kapelli Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/26/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Poland
->DBill and others smile

If you don't need the fireworks in piano, why not to choose the Roland RP-301?
I think it beats Casio in each aspect - if we talk about piano playing.
And cost less than both of them.

or Kawai KDP-80 if going down with prices smile


Edited by kapelli (01/26/13 06:09 PM)

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#2021817 - 01/26/13 06:53 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
SteveConslaw Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Indiana, USA
I don't suppose that there's one piano that sounds the best every piece of music. I have a AP620. I agree the decay is short. The competing pianos in the same price class as the AP620 (and now the AP650) all have their own trade-offs.

If you have already bought the AP650 and don't like the decay, but you like the keyboard feel, the features, and maybe the other sounds, you might want to consider midi'ing your piano to a sound source with a piano that is more your liking. I store my iPad on top of my piano. For cabling reasons, I don't always have it hooked up to midi cables, but I can do so in seconds. The quality of iOS music software is improving, and there are some good piano sounds including Garageband's main piano. (The quality of iOS pianos is not up to the best Windows OR MacOS software pianos, however.) You could play your iPad through the piano speakers if you want, but I play mine through a set of 2.1 computer speakers instead.
_________________________
Step Back! he's got a synthesizer, and he isn't afraid to use it.

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#2021829 - 01/26/13 07:27 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9195
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: DBill
Note to Kawai James

The other piano that I was seriously considering was a Kawai CN34. The deal breaker here was the lack of competitive bidding by Kawai dealers. (And this is forced from higher up in the company.) I was able to get quotes a little better than the “Buy Now” prices at http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CNxx4/cn34.html , but not anywhere near what a straight currency conversion plus VAT adjustment would give from a UK dealer.

The CN34 is a good machine, and I would rate it slightly better than a Celviano 650. If the price were only “slightly higher” than that for a Casio 650 (estimated at $1,500 +/-), I would have gone the CN34 route.


DBill, thank you for your post.

However, I do not have any involvement in how Kawai America set their prices.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2021940 - 01/27/13 01:25 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Here is a new recording (another longer excerpt) of the Schubert Impromptu, this time at the Kawai EP3, as I have replaced the previous recording (at the CA95 earlier in the thread) with this one:

[17 seconds of silence before playing starts]

https://www.box.com/s/3uhyiz8fa3w1qdpeithm

This, to my ears, is how the melodic line should "sing" as the lowly EP3 (that many here don't think much of) does a great job with its sustain and resonance. The playing is not perfect as it contains a few errors.

Wanted to demonstrate the initial decay attack of the EP3, as I believe it easily outperforms the previous Casio's I owned.

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#2024060 - 01/30/13 01:29 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
One of the first few retailers offering the Casio Celviano AP 650 for sale is Jim Laabs Music.
http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/pianos/digitals/celviano-ap650-digital-piano/prod_7704.html

They advertised “Call for Price” so I did. (1-800-657-5125)

Unfortunately Casio called shortly before I did and said they weren’t allowed to sell outside their district, and thus couldn’t give me a price. Thus I don’t know what their price is, but it’s a sign that the 650 will be available at other dealers in the near future.

(If you call, say you live somewhere in Minnesota or Wisconsin. See http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/about-us/info_1.html and maybe you will be among the first to hear what the 650 is selling for.)

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#2024149 - 01/30/13 04:38 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
It looks like Jim Laabs Music jumped the gun in advertising the Celviano 650 as they have pulled the ad. (Wouldn’t be surprised if Mike contacted them and read the riot act.)

I saved a Print Screen picture of the ad if anyone is interested. If you want to see the picture, send me a Private Message and I’ll see if I can paste it in a follow-up message.

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#2024383 - 01/31/13 12:56 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
SteveConslaw Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Indiana, USA
The Kawai CN34 appears to have features that are more comparable to the (Casio) Celviano AP420/450. It's hard to get pricing information, but it appears to be more in line with the AP620/650. I watched a demo of the CN34 on Youtube, and it certainly seemed to have a longer decay than my AP620. (I have never heard the 650.)

The Roland RP301R may have a strong piano sound, but it has a much lower modesty panel than either the Celvianos or the CN34, so it won't look as nice in the living room.
_________________________
Step Back! he's got a synthesizer, and he isn't afraid to use it.

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#2024393 - 01/31/13 01:42 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
(...)

Andy's work is ridiculously nice!


Edited by xorbe (01/31/13 12:55 PM)

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#2024584 - 01/31/13 11:16 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
The AP 620 and AP 650 have different sound engines, and thus their tone decay times are going to be different. The relatively short decay time on the 620 (and the Privia x30 series) has been noted by multiple other people in other reviews, so it’s been pretty well documented.

It would be nice if we had some hard data comparing the decay rate on various machines. Perhaps someone on this forum can go into a piano store and play a “standard chord” on various digital and acoustic pianos and time the number of seconds that the tone remains audible. Then post the results here. (Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.)

There is no such thing as a “standard piano” and what is a good decay rate for one person (and the music that they play) is going to be different for someone else. Thus there is no such thing as a “standard decay rate”. If you are going to buy/play a piano, you should do your homework so that you can buy a machine that satisfies your personal preferences. (I’m a retired “computer nerd” so I tend to call them machines instead of pianos.)

I’m still in the process of trying to buy a piano/machine. I also concluded that the Kawai CN34 and Casio Celviano 650 are similar machines. Thus it comes down to price.

Kawai has prices for the CN34 posted here ( http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/CNxx4/cn34.html ), but the quoted $2399 to $2499 prices are more akin to what Kawai would like to have some sucker pay as opposed to a “fair market price”. I was able to get telephone quotes from dealers a couple of hundred under the above. If you can physically walk into a Kawai dealership, you can probably get still lower quotes.

If you calculate a “fair market price” for a Kawai CN34 based on what they are selling for in the UK, then the U.S. price for a CN34 should be about $1,600.

For example:

UK price for a CN34 = 1215 UK Pounds http://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/kawai-cn34...-digital-pianos

Decrease the above price to take out the 20% UK Value Added Tax
1215 / 1.2 = 1012.5 UK Pounds
https://www.gov.uk/vat/overview (Value added tax = 20%)
https://www.gov.uk/vat/where-you-see-vat “it’s already included in the price”

Convert to U. S. $ = approximately $1,605
http://www.dollars2pounds.com/ (Exchange rate varies continuously)

If Kawai dealers had been willing to sell a CN34 for anywhere near the above price, I would have bought a CN34. However, they weren’t willing, and as a result I will be buying a Celviano 650 as soon as they are available. (Estimated price for a 650 will be around $1500 +/-.)

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#2024626 - 01/31/13 12:20 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
We need to be clear about the improvements that Casio state they've made to the "decay" on the 650 from the 620 (and I suspect the PX-330 to the PX-350).

The decay that I've had serious issue with is I believe known as the "initial decay" - this is exceptionally different to the (for want of a better word) "overall decay" - ie the time it takes for the sound to be inaudible after playing the note.

As I understand it the "overall decay" is improved on the x50 range.

The "initial" decay has NOT changed. So the problem remains. it dies away too quick.

Fast passages will sound acceptable (perhaps even without this improvement) as the initial decay is perhaps not as relevant.

However - passages where the melody must "sing" and be prolonged are unacceptable. The schubert impromptu is just an example of where this flaw lies. Mikes rendition (despite being performed well) clearly shows this.

Here's another example from my own repetoire...Schuberts Ave Maria. Comments welcomed !

Andy

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#2024691 - 01/31/13 02:46 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
The
“Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.”
that I referred to is the same thing that Andy is referring to as “initial decay”.

If someone can take the time to actually measure this “initial decay in volume level”, then we could compare one instrument with another. (I.E. compare the volume decrease from one one-hundredth of second after a note is played to the volume level that remains one second after a note is played.)

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#2024713 - 01/31/13 03:10 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Online   content
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Originally Posted By: DBill
The
“Better yet, if possible, measure the decay amount during the first second as well the total decay time.”
that I referred to is the same thing that Andy is referring to as “initial decay”.

If someone can take the time to actually measure this “initial decay in volume level”, then we could compare one instrument with another. (I.E. compare the volume decrease from one one-hundredth of second after a note is played to the volume level that remains one second after a note is played.)


You can apply all sorts of scientific measures to this issue.

It still comes down to playing it and listening for yourself.

If you cannot play it and there are several "warnings" about this issue, then you would be wise to reconsider the purchase.

If you just want to forge ahead and purchase it, regardless of the warnings, then you will eventually have the "truth" ... as you hear it anyway.
_________________________
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2024893 - 01/31/13 09:12 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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I guess I’ll have to follow “expert” advice.

dmd:
“For that kind of money you can also get the Casio PX-350.
I have never been a fan of Casio due to what I consider too short of a decay on the tones.
However, I played the 350 over the weekend and they seem to have overcome that problem and the tone is excellent. “

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1990831/Re:%20Casio%20Celviano%20AP-420%20vs%20Y.html#Post1990831


Note: The Celviano 650 has the same sound engine as the PX-350

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#2024896 - 01/31/13 09:18 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Here's another example from my own repetoire...Schuberts Ave Maria.


Andy,

Looks like you forgot to include the link to your recording?

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#2024923 - 01/31/13 10:33 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Online   content
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Originally Posted By: DBill
I guess I’ll have to follow “expert” advice.

dmd:
“For that kind of money you can also get the Casio PX-350.
I have never been a fan of Casio due to what I consider too short of a decay on the tones.
However, I played the 350 over the weekend and they seem to have overcome that problem and the tone is excellent. “

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1990831/Re:%20Casio%20Celviano%20AP-420%20vs%20Y.html#Post1990831


Note: The Celviano 650 has the same sound engine as the PX-350


You are right about my comment.

Note the use of my word ... SEEM ...

I was not consciously checking for issues with decay but ... yes, I did not notice anything that alarmed me.

The part about having the same engine is something I have heard so you may be correct.

But, it still would not be enough for me to purchase it without playing it first.

I learned my lesson on that with my purchase of the AP-620 so I am a little extra cautious about this sort of thing.

Good Luck to you.
_________________________
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2025066 - 02/01/13 04:54 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
PV88 - Wasnt planning on providing a recording...just using this as another example of where the legato melody would be let down by the intital decay on the AP-650.

There will be, as you can imagine many more pieces that will struggle on the AP-650 with this decay issue. I'm just using examples from my own repetoire.









Edited by andy0140 (02/01/13 06:38 AM)

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#2025081 - 02/01/13 05:43 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
PV88 - Wasnt planning on providing a recording...just using this as another example of where the legato melody would be let down by the intital decay on the AP-650.

There will be, as you can imagine many more pieces that will struggle on the AP-650 with this decay issue. I'm just using examples from my own repetoire.


Okay, I see... and, yes, the "initial decay" is definitely the issue, no doubt.

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#2025949 - 02/02/13 03:25 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
xorbe Offline
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Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Roland RP-301R

What do you think of the Casio x50 action vs the Roland Ivory Feel-G w/Escapement?

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#2025966 - 02/02/13 04:42 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Pretty similar really. Casio probably shades it by a fraction for realism but the sound is a major letdown.

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#2026066 - 02/02/13 09:55 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2711
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hello Andy,

Are your arms yet tired of beating this dead horse? All 23 of your first 23 forum posts over 2+ months are related to your brief disappointment before exchanging the instrument. Did the piano kick your dog before it left? Your post is here for all to read, search, consider or ignore.

I'm glad you are happy with your Roland (I'm pretty attached to my own Roland) but join the forum and find another topic to discuss. What started off as your story has become tiresome. As of now, all I see typical, anonymous trolling in a clear pattern.
_________________________
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#2026310 - 02/03/13 01:09 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
andy0140 Offline
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Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Bit out of order. I was just answering a question. I came onto this forum to share my experiences with other dp enthusiasts and to discuss the Casio and give my honest opinion. If you find it tiresome don't read this thread. I'm sure other members have taken an interest in this topic.

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#2026460 - 02/03/13 06:23 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
pv88 Offline
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Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Bit out of order. I was just answering a question. I came onto this forum to share my experiences with other dp enthusiasts and to discuss the Casio and give my honest opinion. If you find it tiresome don't read this thread. I'm sure other members have taken an interest in this topic.


Yes, you have done the right thing in getting this info out as I have owned several Casio digitals with issues, too.

All Casio digitals, thus far, do not have sufficient decay and resonance.

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#2026878 - 02/04/13 12:24 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2711
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: andy0140
I was just answering a question.
That's disingenuous. You told your story freely (no problem there, but it was not in response to anyone else) and then kept bringing it back up. I didn't jump on you for your opinion, but when someone has only one message to express over and over (all 23 of their first 23 posts) experience has shown me that eventually they turn out to be socks or trolls.

To characterize a sound you don't like as a flaw is also disingenuous. A buzz is a flaw. A failing note is a flaw. A bad power supply is a flaw. A sound profile is very intentional. Not liking it is like not liking dark chocolate or coffee. One doesn't attack the coffee unless it is stale or cold. You simply offer your opinion and move on.

The V-piano from Roland gets some funny, controversial attention, but from members who participate in a greater variety of discussions. I like when new people participate, ask questions and share opinions. Most new members tend to ask more questions first and opine later. I naturally question when they have only one and always negative agenda. If you participate on other forums, you have to admit this is logical.
_________________________
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2026894 - 02/04/13 12:43 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: PianoWorksATL]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: andy0140
I was just answering a question.
That's disingenuous. You told your story freely (no problem there, but it was not in response to anyone else) and then kept bringing it back up. I didn't jump on you for your opinion, but when someone has only one message to express over and over (all 23 of their first 23 posts) experience has shown me that eventually they turn out to be socks or trolls.

To characterize a sound you don't like as a flaw is also disingenuous. A buzz is a flaw. A failing note is a flaw. A bad power supply is a flaw. A sound profile is very intentional. Not liking it is like not liking dark chocolate or coffee. One doesn't attack the coffee unless it is stale or cold. You simply offer your opinion and move on.

The V-piano from Roland gets some funny, controversial attention, but from members who participate in a greater variety of discussions. I like when new people participate, ask questions and share opinions. Most new members tend to ask more questions first and opine later. I naturally question when they have only one and always negative agenda. If you participate on other forums, you have to admit this is logical.


+1 thumb I couldn't have said it better myself, Sam....

K.
_________________________
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#2026925 - 02/04/13 01:38 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: pv88]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1875
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pv88
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Bit out of order. I was just answering a question. I came onto this forum to share my experiences with other dp enthusiasts and to discuss the Casio and give my honest opinion. If you find it tiresome don't read this thread. I'm sure other members have taken an interest in this topic.


Yes, you have done the right thing in getting this info out as I have owned several Casio digitals with issues, too.

All Casio digitals, thus far, do not have sufficient decay and resonance.



I agree that it was good to get the message out. I too, had a bad experience with the AP-620.

However, I don't think it needs to be ARGUED, over and over.

I would suggest that you give out your opinion based on your experience and then leave it at that.

There is no need to "convince" someone that you are right.

They will find out the truth soon enough.

And, when they do ... they will listen a little more closely next time.





Edited by dmd (02/04/13 01:40 PM)
_________________________
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Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2028241 - 02/06/13 05:02 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
I would like to buy a Celviano AP 650, but I’m running into a lot of dead ends as to who might be able to sell one. Also, there doesn’t appear to be any info about what the sales price might be.

For example, Casio’s “Store Locator” (at http://www.casiomusicgear.com/wheretobuy ) doesn’t find anything for Celvianos.

Mike?

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#2028265 - 02/06/13 05:44 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
They were working on the dealer locator today. It may be fixed by tomorrow. Send me a PM and I can see if I can find out near you.
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#2029355 - 02/08/13 03:01 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Andy, pv88, and Don may very well get “the last laugh”. While my first choice WAS a Casio Celviano AP 650, there is an ongoing problem with Casio as to their ability to sell it. (And of course – my ability to buy it.)

I talked with the Kawai dealer this morning (Schmitt Music in Denver) and got a firm price quote on a Kawai CN34. They are temporally out of stock but will have an incoming shipment early next week. The Kawai will cost several hundred dollars more than the Casio (and this is a guess as I can’t get a firm quote for the 650), but at this point the CN34 has one very large advantage. (It is something other than “vaporware”.)

Basically, it’s come down to Casio getting its act together. If Casio is able to sell me a Celviano AP 650 by early next week (before the CN34 can ship), I’ll buy the 650. Otherwise it will be the CN34.

As to which of the above possibilities appears more likely, I’ve downloaded and am reading the User’s Manual for the CN34.

Note to Mike:
As of this morning, Casio’s Dealer Locator still doesn’t show anything for any major city in Colorado or for that matter, in my neighboring state of New Mexico.

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#2029383 - 02/08/13 04:08 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
galaxy4t Offline
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Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
DBill
Try sending Mike a PM. I think he will do what he can and try and help.

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#2029388 - 02/08/13 04:19 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
JFP Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
In Casio's defense:

it's a new model - it has to be made and shipped AND distributed among many countries and dealers (they can't have piles of stock all at once); the CN34 has been around a while longer, so I don't think it's really fair to compare the two on their availability at this moment. It simply takes time to ramp up production and stock all dealers worldwide.

Other than that both seem relatively good products , although different in some respects. I would choose what I like best, not what comes one , or two weeks earlier or later. In context of it's expected lifespan and use that means nothing...

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#2029412 - 02/08/13 05:15 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Online   content
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Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1875
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
Andy, pv88, and Don may very well get “the last laugh”.


I am not considering this discussion a contest to see who wins. I was (and am) only relating what my experience was and then giving you my best advice based on that experience.

I am pretty sure that if you take my advice (play it before purchasing it) you will be able to make a good decision.

If you decide to ignore that advice, that is fine too. I have no dog in the race.

If things work out for you ... great. If not, I certainly will not be laughing.

Life goes on ...
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2029429 - 02/08/13 05:54 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: DBill
Andy, pv88, and Don may very well get “the last laugh”. While my first choice WAS a Casio Celviano AP 650, there is an ongoing problem with Casio as to their ability to sell it. (And of course – my ability to buy it.)



To clarify, the AP-650 has been shipping here in the US for just over a week. They may be a little hard to get until all the orders get filled.
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#2029478 - 02/08/13 07:41 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
Kawai James Online   content
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Registered: 09/06/07
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Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: DBill
Basically, it’s come down to Casio getting its act together. If Casio is able to sell me a Celviano AP 650 by early next week (before the CN34 can ship), I’ll buy the 650. Otherwise it will be the CN34.


Why the hurry? Why not try both pianos and purchase the instrument you prefer?

Kind regards,
James
x
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#2029547 - 02/08/13 09:46 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
As far as I can see, both the Kawai CN34 and Casio Celviano 650 are excellent machines. I live too far away from any location where I could test them, but I suspect I would have a difficult time telling which is the “better machine” even if I could test them side by side. (My personal opinion is that both are “better machines”.)

The CN34 has more “toys” to play with than the 650. It looks like the 650 has better speakers. Essentially, it’s a trade-off as far as the specs between the two are concerned - although the 650’s “better” speakers are of some significance.

The problem is the ability to buy a 650. The AP 650 has been in production since last summer. It has been widely available (via multiple Internet retailers) in Asia, Europe, Africa, and even Russia since last summer. There isn’t a problem in producing enough of them.

Casio is a “people’s” company. It had a winning marketing program when it allowed people to go to any of multiple websites, click on a few buttons, fill in a credit card number, and in due course of time, FedEx would show up with the product.

The new dealer system freezes out Internet retailers such as KraftMusic.com, (possibly/probably) Amazon.com, etc. (I was the person who tipped off Kraft that they had been frozen out – and I have the emails to prove it.)

Casio’s decision to go to a dealer organization was made months ago. Dealerships should have been set up so customers could find out who to go to even if an item wasn’t in stock. As of this evening, Casio’s Dealer Locator ( http://www.casiomusicgear.com/wheretobuy ) still doesn’t show any dealer in Colorado.

A final note of interest came up when I asked the Kawai dealer “What happens if the CN34 has a problem and needs repairing?” The dealer’s answer was that Kawai would send out a technician to my home to fix it. I don’t think Casio has this service, but it might be something that Mike and Casio might want to think about. (I.E. When a customer buys a product, if “at home” service isn’t included, at least give the customer a chance to buy an “at home” service contract.)

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#2029550 - 02/08/13 10:06 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: DBill
The problem is the ability to buy a 650. The AP 650 has been in production since last summer. It has been widely available (via multiple Internet retailers) in Asia, Europe, Africa, and even Russia since last summer. There isn’t a problem in producing enough of them.


Bill,
To clarify again, we did not bring these into the US until January. The NAMM show was the official launch of these in the US and as I said they have only been shipping for less than 2 weeks.

As for our dealer locator, I've been traveling but I know they were working it. Our new distribution strategy was not announced until the NAMM show to our sales force and our dealer network. So in some parts of the country they are still determining who will and will not be carrying the Celviano line.


Edited by Mike_Martin (02/08/13 10:08 PM)
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#2029612 - 02/09/13 01:11 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
JFP Offline
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Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Bill, although it may seem the ap650 was available early on in Europe , this is not the case. Some web retailers listed the new Casio products by the end of 2012, but they all had expected delivery times of several weeks or even longer. Because the official release wasn't even out yet. Some list the px5s already, which isn't available either. They just want to draw customers who are interested in these boards; it doesn't really mean they have it in stock (yet). Slowly 650's start to dripple in. Have patience , it's a brand new product.

As for 650 vs 34 - the sound character of the AP presets is really different. Try to listen to online demos and see what you like better, if you can't compare them in real life . I expect the 650 doesn't have the new EP's from the px5s series, so there the Kawai will win. About the speakers I don't know , but concerning after sales service , Mike might give a clue what to expect (if something gets broken).

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#2029636 - 02/09/13 02:53 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: JFP]
mrcultureshock Offline
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Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 82
Loc: Georgia, USA
I'm also curious about the after sales service. If something breaks, do we send the AP650 to Casio or Casio will send someone to fix it?

Nicolas
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#2029808 - 02/09/13 10:40 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
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Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
I'll be figuring out which way I'll go over the weekend.

As a side note to baseball fan mrcultureshock - I used to live in R.I. and would occasionally head for Boston's Fenway Park just to watch "The Thumper".

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#2029820 - 02/09/13 10:58 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
bsntn99 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/25/12
Posts: 1
I'll jump in here as someone newer to the forum. I was ready to buy an AP-650 as well, but the late release in the US versus other countries, which is not a good business strategy, had me move on to a Kawai CN-34. I got a killer price right after christmas as the dealer was clearing out stock, but still more expensive than the AP-650 would have been.

My biggest complaints are that the sound system is a bit muffled and flat, especially in the midrange and treble. There is some resonance around the F5 range with the main concert grand sound. Unfortunately, this sample set seems to be used for the other piano sounds and carries through. Some of the other sounds such as organs, strings, pads are quite enjoyable. I ended up adding a set of studio monitors, KRK Rokit 5's, which improves things. On the plus side, besides some of the other sounds, I do like the look of the piano and the feel of the keyboard.

In conclusion, you may want to hold out for the AP-650 since I think the sound system is going to be better. I did like the PX-350 I tried, but wanted a console for the living room. You may want to reach out to AZPiano as he offered to contact me once these were in stock.


Edited by bsntn99 (03/09/13 11:14 AM)

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#2029824 - 02/09/13 11:03 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: mrcultureshock]
Mike_Martin Offline
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Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: mrcultureshock
I'm also curious about the after sales service. If something breaks, do we send the AP650 to Casio or Casio will send someone to fix it?

Nicolas


We have field service (in the US). I can't speak for how it is handled in other countries.
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#2029843 - 02/09/13 11:39 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: bsntn99]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Kawai James will probably chime in here, but try checking the Kawai site to see if there is a firmware update for your piano or contact Kawai. It should not be locking up.

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#2029934 - 02/09/13 02:54 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Casio has a web page at http://www.casio-usa.com/support/musicservicecenters that at least gives you drop off locations if you need repair work. For me, the closest location would be a 3-hour drive (each way) from my home in Colorado to Gallup, NM. Not exactly “on site” service, but for me at least, it would be feasible to disconnect the keyboard and load it in the SUV.

Note to bsntn99:
I have had some correspondence with Tim Praskins at AZ Piano Wholesale. He’s currently listed in Casio’s Dealer Locator, but I don’t know if he’s allowed to sell Celvianos outside his territory. (Whatever his territory might be.) I’ll give him another call on Monday.

These territorial restrictions are a guaranteed Casio deal killer for me unless I can find someone I can buy a 650 from within the next couple of days.

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#2029941 - 02/09/13 03:16 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Bill,
As mentioned getting a AP-650 in the next few days will be very challenging. I appreciate your interest in our product but they are pretty tough to get right now.

As I said above for service, we do have companies that work with us to do warranty service in your home.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2029955 - 02/09/13 03:47 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
DBill,

FWIW... I live near a large city in California and the nearest Casio service center is 3 hours away. The nearest Kawai dealer is also about 3 hours away. My choices are pretty much limited to what I can find online. It seems like many of the top DPs are in heavy demand right now and have long lead times. Very frustrating.

I believe the Celvianos can only be sold by brick-and-mortar piano stores (which probably means paying MSRP).

I ended up ordering my DP from Guitar Center, knowing I can return it within 30 days if there are any issues with it. As far as the warranty goes, I'd hate to have to truck my DP 3 hours to have it serviced... I'm sure the in-home service costs extra?

One thing you might want to look at is getting a DP at your local Guitar Center (if you have one) and paying the extra $100 for their in-house extended warranty.

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#2029980 - 02/09/13 04:40 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: poggler]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: poggler
I'm sure the in-home service costs extra?


No. If you live in large city in California, I'm certain there is a close service center. Regardless in home service on Celviano products is included with your warranty.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2029981 - 02/09/13 04:44 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
dmd Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1875
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: DBill
Casio has a web page at http://www.casio-usa.com/support/musicservicecenters that at least gives you drop off locations if you need repair work. For me, the closest location would be a 3-hour drive (each way) from my home in Colorado to Gallup, NM. Not exactly “on site” service, but for me at least, it would be feasible to disconnect the keyboard and load it in the SUV.

Note to bsntn99:
I have had some correspondence with Tim Praskins at AZ Piano Wholesale. He’s currently listed in Casio’s Dealer Locator, but I don’t know if he’s allowed to sell Celvianos outside his territory. (Whatever his territory might be.) I’ll give him another call on Monday.

These territorial restrictions are a guaranteed Casio deal killer for me unless I can find someone I can buy a 650 from within the next couple of days.


I have spoken to Tim Praskins, at length, and I am quite sure he can have a AP-650 delivered to your door.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Focal CMS 40 Powered Monitors, Ravenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D, Pianoteq 5

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#2030021 - 02/09/13 07:02 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: bsntn99]
ONfrank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 98
Originally Posted By: bsntn99
I'll jump in here as someone newer to the forum. I was ready to buy an AP-650 as well, but the late release in the US versus other countries, which is not a good business strategy, had me move on to a Kawai CN-34. I got a killer price right after christmas as the dealer was clearing out stock, but still more expensive than the AP-650 would have been.


Kawai America has been the slowest off the block as far as Kawai subsidiaries go. They were way behind the Asian and European units when it came to announcing and shipping the new and shiny CN consoles.

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#2030046 - 02/09/13 07:50 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: ONfrank]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 624
Would there be in home warranty service (in Philly and South Jersey for example) on the PX780 and PX850? Or is it strictly for the Celviano series?
_________________________
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Casio PX-130
Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280

Rokit KRK 6 monitors
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#2030056 - 02/09/13 08:09 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: poggler
I'm sure the in-home service costs extra?


No. If you live in large city in California, I'm certain there is a close service center. Regardless in home service on Celviano products is included with your warranty.


Hi Mike,

That's great news about the warranty thanks. I had no idea the Celvianos carried in-home service with their warranty. Not that it's expected they need it because I've heard the mfg quality on the Casios is pretty good.

I found a music store that sold Celvianos (odd I think there's only one in my area) and they only had the AP-420. One thing that was a little concerning was the height under the keys. I noticed in the specs the height is listed as 32.9 for the 420 and 35.9 for the 650 (which I'm interested in). The 420 was a little snug (I'm 6'1"). Do you know if the space under the keys where your legs go was raised at all?

I currently have an px850 on order but it's not due to arrive until the beginning of March. I'm a little concerned because the height is listed as about 32.9 inches for the main unit. Probably more like the ap-420. As my order has been marinating, I've started leaning towards the Celviano line. Especially with the service warranty and possible height difference in the AP-650.

Is the space under the Celvianos and Privias a standard height? Have you heard any complaints by tallish people?

Edit: Rant... trying to get price quotes on the AP-650 is very difficult. Wish these were sold online.



Edited by poggler (02/09/13 08:49 PM)

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#2030121 - 02/09/13 10:05 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
I haven't been able to get a firm price quote either, but we can probably make a pretty good guess. I have seen quotes for the AP 250 at $400 under the MSRP. The 650 has a published MSRP of $1999. If you take $400 off the $1999, it leaves a street price of $1599.

I was originally estimating $1500 for the AP 650 based on "free market" competition, but it now appears that the price will dictated by Casio. Thus the best guess for the AP 650 looks like it will be about $1599. I think Casio has told potential retailers to not include the AP 650 in local discounts so there will probably be a uniform price for all dealerships.

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#2030204 - 02/10/13 01:15 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
I think you can expect the AP-650 to sell somewhere between $1599-1699. I'm basing this on the fact that most PX-X50 Privias saw a $100 increase in the street price when they came out. The PX-850 seems to be selling for right around what the PX-830 did $1099. I think there was a choice of cabinets on the 830 which ran a bit more for polished finish. The Celviano 650 is the top end model however, with 250 sounds, rhythms, accompaniment, ect. There is 256 poly, a lid simulator, and string resonance. The sound system is also beefed up. Casio appears to be testing the waters with the $1999 MSRP, but I would expect it to street for $200-300 less.

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#2030232 - 02/10/13 02:53 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: galaxy4t]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
I think you can expect the AP-650 to sell somewhere between $1599-1699. I'm basing this on the fact that most PX-X50 Privias saw a $100 increase in the street price when they came out. The PX-850 seems to be selling for right around what the PX-830 did $1099. I think there was a choice of cabinets on the 830 which ran a bit more for polished finish. The Celviano 650 is the top end model however, with 250 sounds, rhythms, accompaniment, ect. There is 256 poly, a lid simulator, and string resonance. The sound system is also beefed up. Casio appears to be testing the waters with the $1999 MSRP, but I would expect it to street for $200-300 less.


If the AP-650 is $1700-1800 it'll be interesting to see it reviewed against Yamaha's YDP-162 and Kawai's CN-34.

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#2030402 - 02/10/13 11:10 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
From Kawai’s warranty:
“KAWAI will attempt to perform service at the location of the instrument.”
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/warranties/Kawai_DP_5yr_warranty.pdf
And as the link states, it’s good for 5 years.
(Note this is only valid for “KAWAI CN, CA AND CP MODEL DIGITAL PIANOS”)

As I mentioned earlier, I have to wait until the dealer gets his current shipment delivered (estimated for early this week) before he can ship the CN34 to me, but I should get the CN34 within a week after that.

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#2030664 - 02/10/13 05:09 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
DBill,

There's a lot in the Kawai warranty that essentially means it's up to the discretion of Kawai whether they perform the service in your home or have you have the product shipped to them. If you have to ship the product to them, you pay the shipping charges and they pay the return shipping charges. Shipping approx. 100 lbs can be expensive and you risk damage to the product ... which would be your responsibility.

I haven't seen Casio's warranty. It could very well be the same thing.

It's still a big decision though. If the product can't be serviced locally, there's peace of mind getting a DP at the local Guitar Center and paying for the extended warranty.

With regards to the Celviano, I went and to a music store that is expecting to have them in a couple of weeks. They just saw them at NAMM and were able to order them... like Mike Martin said.

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#2030741 - 02/10/13 07:11 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
To poggler:

It’s interesting that you can get the AP 650 through the Guitar Center chain. The information that I have is quite explicit that Guitar Center stores will NOT be allowed to sell the 650. According to the information that I have, the Guitar Center stores will be able to sell the x20 and earlier series (although the 620 is no longer being produced), but not the 650. (Check with Mike for the final word.)

The information that I have is saying the AP 650 will be uniformly priced by Casio dealers at $1599. It will be interesting to see what the actual price will be.

Kawai’s warranty is publically displayed for everyone to see. I haven’t found a similar public warranty statement by Casio.

I won’t be able to give a firm order to Kawai for the CN34 until later this week, but I’ve essentially given up on the Casio AP 650. At least for me, it isn’t worth the hassle of trying to find someone who is authorized to sell it.

For anyone who is interested, I consider the 650 to be a top quality machine, and it may well be a better “bang for the buck” than Kawai’s CN34. I’ve simply gone past the amount of frustration that I will put up with in regard to Casio.

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#2030768 - 02/10/13 07:46 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2711
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: DBill
For anyone who is interested, I consider the 650 to be a top quality machine, and it may well be a better “bang for the buck” than Kawai’s CN34. I’ve simply gone past the amount of frustration that I will put up with in regard to Casio.
Since you are not willing to be patient, go buy the Kawai. Casio is in the process of growing their piano dealer network. The AP-650 is a new product, and its not an internet product. Complaining about it here can't change either issue. Some help has been offered to you in exchange for your patience, but asking dealers to violate their business agreements is a bad way get help. You can go and buy it; you just can't order it online or over the phone. This is the same for certain Roland, Yamaha & Kawai products and now Casio as well.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2030772 - 02/10/13 07:52 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@Bill,

First of all, I believe that the Casio AP-650 is not necessarily a better "bang for the buck" item than the Kawai CN34 you are considering, as I can make a direct comparison between the Casio AP-620 and Kawai EP3, in which the Kawai is the winner (for me) in every respect for sounds, action, and, overall resonance.

Also, I sympathize with your frustration in not getting answers from Casio as I encountered all of the same with the Casio's I had owned. If issues are not dealt with properly, then I am not going to keep the digital.

Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise that Casio's additional features (i.e., bang-for-the-buck stuff) outweigh the more important aspects of having a digital that has sufficient sounds, action, decay, and, harmonic resonance.

What matters in the end is finding a digital that plays reasonably well with no initial decay, sustain, or, resonance issues.

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#2030776 - 02/10/13 07:58 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
mrcultureshock Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 82
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: DBill

For anyone who is interested, I consider the 650 to be a top quality machine, and it may well be a better “bang for the buck” than Kawai’s CN34. I’ve simply gone past the amount of frustration that I will put up with in regard to Casio.


I think if the 650 is one of your choices, you should hold off making the purchase until you can try one. By doing this, you'll have all the information you need to make the correct decision.

Digital pianos are pretty big purchases in terms of money and future enjoyment, not to mention how these pianos look in your house. I would personally wait a bit more.
_________________________
If you don't think too good, don't think too much (Ted Williams)

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#2030790 - 02/10/13 08:41 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
@Bill

I apologize if I confused things with my post. You're absolutely right the AP-650 is not sold at Guitar Center. I keep sending them emails asking anyway. ("No" is a tough word for me.) Haha. There is a general music store near me which is one of the listed dealers for the AP-650. I went there yesterday and talked with the owner. He said they had all gone to NAMM and seen the DPs, placed their orders, and should be receiving shipments of the Privias/Celvianos within a couple of weeks. Their store received authorization to sell the new Celvianos because of the lack of "piano" stores in my area. The AP-650 is probably not one they're going to stock a lot of because they're planning on the AP-450 as their top Celviano. He said he'll be getting back with me on AP-650 pricing and availability soon.

I mentioned Guitar Center because I already have a PX-850 on order with them. It's not due to ship until around the 1st week of March. I'm still deciding whether I want to stay with the 850 or upgrade to the AP-450. I actually went to Guitar Center today and tried out the 350 which has the same keys. I liked playing it more than the Yamahas they had in the store (P155, DGX640). The keys on the 350 did seem a little more plastic-like when I tapped on them with my fingernails; but they felt more substantive like an acoustic (in my amateur opinion) than the Yamahas. And I liked the texture on the keys. I also liked the sound of the 350 and couldn't detect the short decay people are mentioning here ... at least with my amateur ears anyway.

I'd love to try out a Kawai but the closest dealer is about 2.5 hours away from me and may not be open during the hours I'm available to make the trip. If I'm still having problems deciding before the 850 ships from GC, I may end up trekking it to the Kawai dealer anyway.

TLDR: From what I've tried, I know I'd be happy with the 850 I can get from Guitar Center. Still trying to decide if I'd be happier with the AP-650... whether it would be worth paying the ~$600 extra. Still also trying to decide if I'd have regrets not trying a Kawai if I can't find one near me or make the trip to a dealer.





Edited by poggler (02/10/13 08:42 PM)

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#2030856 - 02/10/13 11:52 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
To poggler

What I had been trying to do was to find someone who could sell an AP 650. This was similar to your efforts. Casio has created a complete mess with the way they are trying to set up a dealer system. People that I have been in contact with told me back in December that Casio wasn’t going to sell the AP 650 via the Internet, but instead, Casio was going to sell it via a dealer system. As I mentioned in a previous post, I was the person who tipped off Kraft Music that they were going to be frozen out. Casio didn’t advise Kraft early in the game about what was going on.

If Casio knew in December (and probably much earlier than December), why didn’t they get their dealer system set up before NAMM? If a dealer system had been set up before NAMM, then by the time NAMM occurred, Casio’s “Where to Buy Store Locator” http://www.casiomusicgear.com/wheretobuy would have given consumers (like us) an accurate list of places to go where we could buy Casio products.

Immediately after NAMM, I assumed that the “Where to Buy” list was accurate. The “Where to Buy” list included many Guitar Center stores, Best Buy stores, (I contacted both chains) as well as independent retailers (and I contacted several of them). I assumed that the “Where to Buy” list was an accurate list of retailers for Casio products.

We now know the “Where to Buy” list is not accurate. As of 9:30 MST tonight, there still isn’t a Casio dealer listed for any major city in Colorado (my home state). The “Where to Buy” list has led us off on a wild goose chase. I think Casio’s mismanagement of the dealership transfer may have produced a lot of other misunderstandings in addition to the consumer level. I don’t have information from inside Casio, but I suspect this transition to a dealership idea probably came from the “high mucky mucks” in Casio so that Mike is also caught in the confusion.


To Sam

In regard to your statement regarding my plans to buy a Kawai CN34: “You can go and buy it”
I intend to do just that.

In regard to your statement “asking dealers to violate their business agreements”
Please review our Private Messages. I have not asked you or any other dealer “to violate their business agreements”. For that matter, how would I have any knowledge of what your business agreements were?

If you would like to argue the point, I can easily put our entire conversation on a web page (on my website) where the whole world can check it.

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#2030915 - 02/11/13 02:45 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Huh, I guess it's too bad that I'll never hear the full AIR engine on an AP-650 down at GC then. Maybe on the PX-5S eventually, though my GC removed the PX-3 board a while ago now. I think there's a Casio synth in that spot now.

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#2030929 - 02/11/13 03:45 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2401
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
This is a frustrating thread to read now. There's some odd folks out there.

DBill - you need to understand the distinction between the Casio dealer network and any issues that may raise and the simple fact that you were interested in a brand new Casio product that it seems NO ONE HAS AT THE MOMENT. Whatever the situation with the evolving Casio network you are not going to get a 650 within a day or two - the product is brand new and stocks are just not out there yet.

As Sam and Mike have said - be patient or buy an alternative product.

Trying to act as some digital piano James Bond (007 - licence to moan) and "tipping off" Kraft or anyone else that Casio might or might not include them in their network or authorised retailers for this product is not your place and - if I were to be charitable - I would describe as "eccentric" behaviour. I have no doubt Kraft can look after their own relationship with Casio without any input from you.

Having read your posts if I was Casio I'd be awfully grateful you'd decided to buy a Kawai!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#2031115 - 02/11/13 12:24 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2711
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: DBill
For that matter, how would I have any knowledge of what your business agreements were?
I'm not calling you the bad guy, I'm only saying you are too impatient if you want the Casio to come to you. Some previous internet dealers thought/hoped they would represent the new models and that created the cloud of different information that surrounded you. When we spoke a few days ago, I anticipated this and explained how some places would dance around while getting your hopes up. I gave you an estimated timeline from Casio based on the best information available. And, at that time, I clarified why far away dealers couldn't just satisfy your request.

I do not expect you to know the business agreement when you approached me. You didn't do anything wrong, but know that posting the PM's will not be embarrassing to me. I explained that you needed to visit a dealer. I hoped Casio would find the next closest dealer (not me) and assign them to you, but that is their decision. Even that would require an exception to the new dealer model where you must try before you buy. Nothing has changed in the week since we spoke except that Casio is a week closer to answering you.

You were asking some of the wrong questions to some of the wrong people. You didn't know you were asking the wrong questions, and since this is not like the previous AP's, gratification is not instant for everyone, everywhere. I accept you choosing an alternative product that meets your needs and your timeline. I just don't like the idea that Casio somehow let you down. Even the competitor had to order a DP for you. By March when it arrives, Casio probably would have had an answer for you. That's my whole point.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#2031123 - 02/11/13 12:37 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
First off, just really have to thank the dealers and DP company representatives who contribute to this board. Really helps in the decision-making process.

FWIW, I think Casio is doing right by limiting their new Celvianos to authorized dealers. It makes it more difficult, sure. I'd rather order it online, sure. But at least in this case, chances are it encourages the customer to go to several B&M stores to try out different DPs, possibly promoting a better decision and customer satisfaction. It also might help improve perception of product value long-term (once people get used to the idea of Casio having authorized dealer-only products).

I really hope some people who've actually purchased and played an AP-650 over a longer period of time can contribute to this post or start a new (non-dead horse) thread.

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#2031913 - 02/12/13 03:08 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
For anyone who still had any remaining doubts as to whether I would buy a Casio Celviano 650 or a Kawai CN34, I officially ordered (including credit card number) the CN34 today. A friend of mine will be picking it up in Denver, CO on Sat. (Feb. 16) and bringing it back to Durango on Sun. The sales agent said this method of delivery would not affect the warranty, and it saves on shipping costs.

The deciding factor for the decision between the two machines was Kawai’s publicly posted, 5-yr, parts and labor, on-site service warranty.
http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/warranties/Kawai_DP_5yr_warranty.pdf

The two machines have many features in common although as you might expect, the CN34 has a few that the Casio 650 doesn’t have. For example the CN34 has Handbells, Tubular Bells, Church Bells, Carillon, etc. that might be fun to play with for Christmas music. On the other hand I’m not sure how I might play “Helicopter”. Alternately, you could split the keyboard so that all but one of the keys are a regular piano, and play the other note, “Applause”, at the end of your performance.

Besides the usual splits, instrument overlays, layers, etc., the CN34 has a Balance Slider that can control the relative volume of each. For example, suppose you have a musical piece where the melody is played in the lower notes by your left hand. (i.e. pv88’s Schubert) You can split the keyboard (at any arbitrary key) but keep the same instrument on both sides. Then you can use the Balance Slider to increase the relative volume of the lower notes. This is somewhat easier than trying to play fortissimo (or even louder) with your left hand at the same time your right hand is supposed to be limited to pianissimo (or even quieter).

Of course, you pay more for all of the above as a CN34 costs more than the Casio 650’s $1599.

The only uncertainty that I have is the volume of the CN34’s speakers. The CN34 will be going in a large room (ceiling slopes from 20 ft. high on one side to 25 feet on the other side). As with the 650, you can always add external speakers. I’ll let everyone know how it goes.

There are videos at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pd-7Vtt5kw and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jyRUY8OKeI that give quick reviews of the CN34.They are what you would expect from “infomercials”, but they are a good introduction.

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#2031927 - 02/12/13 03:34 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: DBill]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@Bill,

Congratulations on your Kawai CN34, as I think you will like the sounds, action, and response, of this digital. No need to worry about the speakers as they should be reasonably loud enough as is, although adding speakers with an additional subwoofer would help in bringing out the lower bass range.

Also, your warranty (with Kawai) is a very good one, too.

Would like to hear your review, when you can do so.

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#2031980 - 02/12/13 04:41 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
From what I've seen and read I like both the AP650 and CN34. However, is it fair to compare them to each other? Doesn't the CN34 cost around $600 to $700 more?

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#2032009 - 02/12/13 05:26 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 572
Loc: Mt View, CA
Andy,
Is your assessment based on the AP-650's built-in speakers, or while using headphones? I tinkered with the 150/350 recently and thought there was not much improvement, while using the built-in speakers. But I do think they sound a lot better than the PX-x30 with headphones. (Having said that, no they don't compare to the Roland SuperNatural right next to them with headphones, but I'm just curious if maybe some of Casio's woes result from headphone sound mastering.) Though I also thought the Roland sounded like crap through GC's external speaker setup ... perhaps that's not so surprising, heh. I did like the texture on the PX-350 keys after having used the Roland for a while.

When I got my PX slab last year, my wife (from Japan) said, "Casio, don't they make watches?" Lol, I think the AP-650 has an uphill battle as a dealer exclusive model.

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#2032042 - 02/12/13 06:35 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: xorbe]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Xorbe,

Both. Speakers or headphones, for me, the initial decay in the middle range was unacceptable.

That's why I quickly returned it to the store and swapped it for the roland.










Edited by andy0140 (02/12/13 06:42 PM)

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#2032120 - 02/12/13 09:01 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Assuming the Casio Celviano AP 650 will be priced at $1599 (And I think my info on this price is reliable), I paid almost $600 more for the Kawai. I think the 650 is also a good machine – especially for its price. The problem that I ran into was the ability to buy it.

Casio will eventually get a usable dealership organization, but the problem is when. I gave up waiting for it and instead will have the CN34 by Sunday evening. (Followed by “Some adult assembly required”.)

There’s already been a photo coverage of the CN34 on this forum (at http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1988239/1.html ), and I don’t think I can add much to that. I bought the “Rosewood” color ( http://store.kawaius.com/p/cn34-rosewood-digital-piano?pp=8&pp=8 but well under this price) instead of white, but other than that, it will look about the same.

As for a musical review, it’s been 35 years since I’ve played a piano and it’s going to take a while before I can get the old skills back. (And that’s assuming I can get my fingers to work properly.) At this point, my only review is that any piano that you can get your hands on is better than no piano.

pv88 may have a good point about the CN34 needing a subwoofer. It takes a lot of sound energy to get a good sound output for low frequencies, and the CN34 may need some help. (Note: The long string lengths of the large acoustics (equals higher energy storage capacity) are what give them their great bass tones.)

I’ve got the 2 vol. set of “The Library of Piano Classics” and think I can start in again from that level. There’s also a lot of free classical sheet music available on the Internet. For example I’ve downloaded Liszt’s 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody (which at one time I could play from memory), so I’ll have plenty to work with. The version that I downloaded appears to be a note for note match with Maxim’s video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byGI1mDi3no

Liszt will have to wait for a bit. There are portions where your right hand gets a real workout, and I may never get that ability back. I think I may try Grieg’s “In the Hall of the Mountain King” (A. Pero’s arrangement – not this version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LAhKkPUo_A ) fairly early as that is a musical representation of where I live. (Will also give the CN34’s low notes a test. I can compare headphone output with speaker output, and if there’s a notable difference, the speakers would be assumed guilty.)

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#2032195 - 02/13/13 12:10 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
poggler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/13
Posts: 35
@DBill,

Thanks for checking in. It'll be great to hear your feedback on your experiences with the CN34 (maybe in a new thread?).

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#2032388 - 02/13/13 10:18 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
Good suggestion.
I've started a new thread with the title of: Colorado Kawai CN34.

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#2034050 - 02/16/13 01:10 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
DBill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Durango, CO
The following advertisement for a Celviano AP 650 for “Under $1600” was at BHA Piano Center, but has suddenly disappeared from the Internet.



What happens next for the Celviano AP 650’s price and availability is not known.

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#2043637 - 03/05/13 10:46 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
baileypeterson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 26
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Mike - which particular video(s) are you referring to ?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA









_________________________
Bailey Peterson

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#2065040 - 04/15/13 03:22 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
pianoworldanon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Originally Posted By: poggler
I'm sure the in-home service costs extra?


No. If you live in large city in California, I'm certain there is a close service center. Regardless in home service on Celviano products is included with your warranty.


Mike, can you tell me about Casio's in home service? The closest location from where I live will require a total of 4 hours of drive. Two round trip of 2 hours each. The two round trip is required where I'm to leave the piano at the shop for 1 week for them to diagnose and request the main board. Then I am to return to pick it up. When you speak of in-home service, this means Casio can send a tech to where I live? I've called casio before, but I was only told to drive it down to the closest location, even though I told the Casio Customer Support person that I will have to drive 4 hours total just to get the main board swapped. How do I go about requesting an in-house service? I have one of those "please wait" error message that won't go away when the piano is reset to factory settings. The piano also cannot save any settings even with the Backup switched from off to on. The other problem is that the Backup to OFF cannot be maintained after a powercycle. And then there's the "ERROR, DATA EXCHANGE" error when connecting with a laptop.

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#2065092 - 04/15/13 05:17 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: baileypeterson]
pianoworldanon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: baileypeterson
Originally Posted By: andy0140
Mike - which particular video(s) are you referring to ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGG1GwWGhBA



Is there anyway to upgrade the decay time for older / new models that also have the short decay time via a flash upgrade or is this an issue of not having enough physical memory? Memory are cheap these days. Not sure why the piano didn't have the longer decay time to begin with.

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#2065333 - 04/16/13 03:06 AM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
mabraman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 321
Loc: Valencia, Spain
Cause the longer it is, the more evident is a bad looping!!!
_________________________
Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.

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#2065661 - 04/16/13 06:04 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Pianoworldanon,
I have reached out to you privately to try to help you with your situation. I needed some basic information from you, like where you bought your Casio, your product serial number and specifically who at Casio you've been in touch with. You've told me that you don't want to tell me these things.

Clearly there is a breakdown in communication at Casio which I am trying to correct. I am trying to help you. Without information from you, I can't seem to figure out where you're getting this incorrect information. Casio will provide IN HOME WARRANTY REPAIR for Celviano products. This also includes large Privia models like PX-850. As the General Manager of the division, I'm quite certain what I am talking about.

If you'd like to provide me with this information, I'd personally make an effort to get your AP-620 up and running again. I also believe that there are adjustments to the the velocity curve and the brightness setting that will make you significantly happier with your AP-620.

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#2066736 - 04/18/13 07:53 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: Mike_Martin]
pianoworldanon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 62
Originally Posted By: Mike_Martin
Pianoworldanon,
I have reached out to you privately to try to help you with your situation. I needed some basic information from you, like where you bought your Casio, your product serial number and specifically who at Casio you've been in touch with. You've told me that you don't want to tell me these things.

Clearly there is a breakdown in communication at Casio which I am trying to correct. I am trying to help you. Without information from you, I can't seem to figure out where you're getting this incorrect information. Casio will provide IN HOME WARRANTY REPAIR for Celviano products. This also includes large Privia models like PX-850. As the General Manager of the division, I'm quite certain what I am talking about.

If you'd like to provide me with this information, I'd personally make an effort to get your AP-620 up and running again. I also believe that there are adjustments to the the velocity curve and the brightness setting that will make you significantly happier with your AP-620.


I've emailed you. One of the problems is that the piano can no longer save settings even though BACKUP is ON. The other issue is that it can't be reset back to factory defaults though it use to be able to and now gets the "please wait" error, though I'm fortunate that it would go away upon reboot, where as other people are not so lucky.

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#2066751 - 04/18/13 08:48 PM Re: Casio AP-650 [Re: andy0140]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Got your note. You'll hear from someone tomorrow.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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