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#1980835 - 10/31/12 07:50 AM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2451
Loc: Maine
Years ago when I bought a new drill press I checked the runout and wasn't satisfied with the little swirl the drill point was making. I showed it to a neighbor who was a machinist with the comment that I was thinking about returning the heavy thing. He offered to clean the morse taper and that solved the problem, but it wasn't just a wipe and swipe cleaning. He cleaned the seat and the taper repeatedly with alternating applications of lighter fluid and light oil ending with oil that he wiped off completely. He said the the factory workers had filings on their hands and gloves and that they hardly ever got the tapers really clean.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#1980849 - 10/31/12 08:47 AM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
David the problem of contaminated taper seats in machinery is one that is carefully avoided in better manufacturing companies. When I worked for Magna for example, no air hoses were allowed near the spindle for cleaning or during a tool change operation. Softer metal chips like brass/bronze/aluminum/CRS have a tendency to stick to the harder shanks and tapers when driven against each other.

Too many folks don't fully understand the cost involved in making super high quality tools, even things like simple drill bits. My complete letter/number drill bit set manufactured by Sheffield cost over $500 20 years ago. The same assortment of bits can also be bought for $49 from china, or for any cost in between by other manufacturers. My bits were used every day for numerous years, drilling alloy steels and materials much tougher than wood and they still work like the day i got them, provided that they are sharpened correctly when needed. If one needs to purchase a new bit after drilling one or even a dozen pin blocks, you have an inferior tool to begin with.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1980901 - 10/31/12 11:47 AM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: Gene Nelson]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
Going for a new block I would recommend the hybrid, designed by Ron Nossaman. A custom 9mm Dilignit cap (not bridge capping or pin block material) on a standard multi-lam block.
Gene, what is the difference between Delignit pin block and bridge cap material and the pin block capping stock? Does it have a specific name?
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1980921 - 10/31/12 12:56 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Gene Nelson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1661
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Jurgen, it appears that there may be more laminations than the bridge capping material, I count 7 on this 9mm cap but I do not have any other Dilignit material here to compare.
If memory serves, Ron has specified what he wants and Dilignit makes it for him, so there may be more to it than just laminations.

David: Now if only the tuning pin manufacturers would true up their tooling the way that you do we would not be forced to deal with tuning pins that vary in diameter by several thousandths or that are oblong.
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1980933 - 10/31/12 01:17 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: Gene Nelson]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson
...If memory serves, Ron has specified what he wants and Dilignit makes it for him, so there may be more to it than just laminations.
Speaking from a bit of experience, I can't see one person being able to order enough to come anywhere near a minimum factory order. They usually ask if you want a twenty foot or a forty foot container full. wink The material must be available somewhere.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1980957 - 10/31/12 02:09 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: Gene Nelson]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4263
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Gene Nelson

Now if only the tuning pin manufacturers would true up their tooling the way that you do we would not be forced to deal with tuning pins that vary in diameter by several thousandths or that are oblong.


I have found that Diamond or Bienne pins have less of this symptom. One of those brands used to be Fly Brand but I can’t recall which one.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1980961 - 10/31/12 02:16 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I have heard that the Japanese tuning pin manufacturing has been sub-contracted to India. Anyone know anything about this?
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1980984 - 10/31/12 03:14 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Jurgen, the only pins I know of with the Japanese-Indian connection is the Nippon Denro which is presently owned and run by Ispat Industries. I believe Hitachi originally set them up with the steel rolling process and another large Japanese firm collaberated but that was over 20 years ago. I still see numerous suppliers of the Nippon Denro pins in the U.S. state in their advertising "Manufactured in Japan". although the pin quality is decent (ie. not great). I highly doubt the Indians are subcontracting out to Japan for something like this. I've used them for years in anything but a really high quality piano.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1980986 - 10/31/12 03:21 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4263
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada


I always felt that Denro pins had too much twist.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1980993 - 10/31/12 03:37 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Gene Nelson Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 1661
Loc: Old Hangtown California
Jurgen, I trust your experinece and I trust Ron, however I do not know much about Ron's business.
For what it is worth, I measured the laminations on Dilignit block material at 8 in 9mm and Ron's capping material at 7 in 9mm.
Maybe somebody out there has some Dilignit bridge capping material that they can measure?
_________________________
RPT
PTG Member

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#1981091 - 10/31/12 07:59 PM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: Emmery]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2451
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Emmery
David the problem of contaminated taper seats in machinery is one that is carefully avoided in better manufacturing companies. When I worked for Magna for example, no air hoses were allowed near the spindle for cleaning or during a tool change operation. Softer metal chips like brass/bronze/aluminum/CRS have a tendency to stick to the harder shanks and tapers when driven against each other.

Too many folks don't fully understand the cost involved in making super high quality tools, even things like simple drill bits. My complete letter/number drill bit set manufactured by Sheffield cost over $500 20 years ago. The same assortment of bits can also be bought for $49 from china, or for any cost in between by other manufacturers. My bits were used every day for numerous years, drilling alloy steels and materials much tougher than wood and they still work like the day i got them, provided that they are sharpened correctly when needed. If one needs to purchase a new bit after drilling one or even a dozen pin blocks, you have an inferior tool to begin with.
The drill press came from Taiwan as I recall, and the neighbor said about the same thing you did. Ya gets what ya pays fur!
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

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#1981179 - 11/01/12 12:19 AM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos


I always felt that Denro pins had too much twist.


Never noticed this myself, but I haven't put them up side to side beside some better pins to make a better call on that. I replaced 4 pins on a 5 year old chinese import piano a while back and the wire I took off them had left shallow groove on the surface at the bottom of the coil and a small notch in the edge of the becket hole. Don't usually see this even on the old N.A. upright tuning pins I pull that are 10 times older.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1981183 - 11/01/12 12:50 AM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Total fluke. Must have only been four bad pins. laugh
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1981193 - 11/01/12 01:43 AM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: James Carney]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3665
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
I'm not a fan of Denro pins.
Diamond pins are far superior.
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1981195 - 11/01/12 01:48 AM Re: Using varnish when restringing [Re: Rod Verhnjak]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1449
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Rod Verhnjak
I'm not a fan of Denro pins.
Diamond pins are far superior.


I agree.
thumb
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
Editor, Piano Technicians Journal
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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