Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Developing the basics for sightreading.

Hey, KeyString, lighten up . . .

As usual, I wasn't seeking your approval or critique.

It's a forum. People respond and correspond. Back and forth is what is done. There is nothing particularly "heavy" about my response. Do you not want your ideas to be taken seriously?

You are right. However, in practice if you have a few hymnals and a bunch of other material, you will have forgotten the first things that you read when you cycle back to them. I've read through two hymnals 8-10 times. True, some of the hymns are now pretty familiar to me, but it still feels like sight-reading for most.

I think I shot myself in the foot by simply "doing it." That is, sight-reading two hours a day for several years without the guidance of a teacher. I did get advice online, but during those years I simply reinforced bad habits. The worst habit is attending to the notes rather than the intervals.

I did learn a lot and progress, but I find it very hard to not be focusing on the notes rather than the intervals.

I have an exercise that I do that helps me with this. I've never seen it described elsewhere, though I'm sure someone has thought of it.

Here it is: I take a hymn, and transpose it on sight. That is, I figure out what the notes are in the first chord (in the new key), play those, and from then on, play by recognizing the intervals from one note to the next, and between the notes of the chord.

When I do this I am forced to rely in intervals, because the notes will be wrong.

I do a few of these, and then when I play in the written key, I pay more attention to intervals.

Great Post Tangleweed

Thanks

fizikisto@ Thanks for the suggestions, especially about the material for developing rhythmic skills. I'm glad you feel it is something that can be trained instead of being inborn with. I'm getting better, but I still feel rhythm is my weak spot. At least it is my paranoia spot.

Funnily enough, I don't look a lot at the keyboard. Maybe it is because it is the third instrument I'm studying. Teacher had me recently play an easy menuett from Bach with a jump of over an octave and she asked me to do it. I don't hit it correctly all the time - maybe 80 to 90 % of the time, but it did wonders to help me with developing that feeling for the piano. I'm not as comfortable with it as I was with my good old recorder, but then, it is a rather different kind of instrument.

Since arriving here I was surprised that there seems to be different opinions about learning HS or HT… Teacher one had me learn HS and Teacher two continued with it, though she urges me to play HT a lot earlier than Teacher one did…

keystring@ Yeah, I think that sight-reading and reading are related but not identical skills. From my learner's POV I think I will have to sharpen my reading skills before I move on to even tackle sight reading. I think that might be a good opportunity to pick up the good old recorder between piano practices and work on my reading skills with an instrument with a limited number of notes, that plays only one voice at a time and that I have most experience with.

My teacher is very good in some areas like training me to pay more attention to the dynamics and interpretation of a piece and encouraging me when I start to doubt myself. She does not however make me play technical things like scales or arpeggios and such or explain me exactly why she chose the piece she suggests on next. When I try to ask her, she tells me to stop being too systematical…. *sigh* What can I say? I'm a systematical science teacher at heart. That kind of frustrates me and in another thread I explained that I kind of inherited her when my first teacher moved away… At present my feeling is that for the time being she still has a lot to teach me, but I will keep a wary eye out to make sure that the point to move on hasn't come yet. I once made the mistake to quit taking lessons with the guitar instead of finding a teacher more suited to my needs. But I am older now and less shy and I won't let that happen again.

Regrettably, teaching sightreading here in Germany seems to be even more rare than for example in the UK. In a music store the clerk told me he had been lucky to be taught sightreading during his childhood in the UK, because here it would be even rarer. There is almost no sight-reading literature on the market and what little there is are English imports.

Back in my school days we had many years of music. Though considered a secondary subject of less importance like German, math or English I did learn a lot about the different epochs of music, starting with the middle ages and moving up to the history of rock, analyzing songs and pieces of different styles from a simple song to the notation of operas. I was astonished how much music theory had survived the black hole of time… Though my theory has some smaller and some larger holes, I at least received a foundation to build on. While for example I had to look up again to make sure where the half note steps are in a certain kind of scale, I did remember that there were those and even guessed them correctly. Still - there is a whole lot of stuff I still have to reactivate or have yet to learn at all. Point is, apart from the occasional refresher teacher didn't have to teach me any theory yet.

Al> I read your blog and found it very informative. I found especially interesting that at one time you pointed out the importance of recognizing intervals, then took it, then retracted your retrieval. I found your report on your progress both inspiring and intimidating.

I'm currently learning to sight read, self teaching, cannot have a teacher for various reasons.

It occurred to me while reading this thread that I'm at the stage that if I see a three note chord, I'm saying in my head, that's C, E and G, I'm not looking at it and instantly thinking that's the chord of C.

It's like being a child learning to read.

If I take the above sentence, I don't look at the second word "like" and say in my head, that's L, I, K and E, I look at it for a micro second and see the whole word.

I presume I have to get to the same place with sight reading, and at first simple chords such as non inverted c major will be easy to spot, rather like as a child, words like "at" came first and we had to pause for longer words.

This is probably very obvious to all of you, but it just clicked in my head as to what I need to be aiming for.

Best

Joe

Right you are, Joe, but there is even more to it than that.

Using your excellent comparison between learning to read language, and learning to sight-read music, when we, as adults, look at that sentence, we actually TRANSLATE the letters-into-words, and the words-into-meaning. Put another way, we do not "pause" as we assemble L-I-K-E into a word, but grasp the letters as a word, grasp the words as a sentence, and go straight to the meaning or idea. Getting to this stage, obviously, takes time for a beginner.

In similar fashion, when we sight-read, the notes on the page BECOME the sound of the instrument. All the intermediate steps are there: The note on the page is sub-consciously identified, and found on the keyboard, and the key is depressed. The notes sounded in succession build into the melody, and the notes sounded simultaneously assemble into chords. The rhythm is blocked into a pulse, and the written dynamics make us play louder or softer, or attack and release in certain patterns. But ultimately, these steps are not even considered. When sight-reading is at its best, we go from the page to the sound. That is the goal.

Ed

I do not have a close familiarity with music education in Germany, but I will permit myself to say that what you write surprises me and I cannot help but be doubtful of it's validity. I suspect that you have an idea in your mind of what and how you want to be taught, and that things are done differently in Germany.

In any case, in Germany's next-door neighbor, France, reading music is very widely taught. There is a tremendous wealth of material. Although it too may not correspond with your expectations, for example if you are looking for elementary-level prima-vista sight-reading exercises for piano. If you have the occasion to come to France, you might want to stop in a town and spend a few hours browsing in a sheetmusic shop.

Reading music is not difficult. The teaching (and learning!) of reading music is not something new, it has been going on for centuries. There really isn't any need to invent or improvise, to the contrary if you want to learn to read music music and you start by trying to invent an approach you are surely passing aside of the things that can help you the most.

Hi Barbareola,

I have started a thread on sight reading here:
Let's sight read - material and tips

- I found that using a metronome helped me the most. Not only does it force you to keep playing because it emulates an ensemble, but it also helps you to "open" your ears and listen to the beat.

- Regarding hands together (HT) or hands separate (HS):
When you are a beginner and you are still learning, use HS. But if you have some experience like yourself, always HT when you are sight reading.

- If you have a digital piano you can try a duet with "yourself". Search for a piano piece that is meant to be played in a duet. Record the first voice and replay it while sight reading the second voice. Instead of first and second voice you can also try this with bass and treble clef.

This gives pause for thought:

Some years ago, written music was sound for me in the way it is for many singers, and I played the sound that I heard. It was almost like playing by ear with the melody coming out of the paper instead of a recording. For some instruments you actually have to be able to do that, pre-hearing the notes. I think that brass instruments go that way. There were weaknesses in how I read piano music.

Since then I learned a different way of reading music. You see the notes on the page and this matches to a location on the piano and sensations in the hand. An A chord feels like two low white keys on the outside, and a raised black key in the middle. The sound of a major chord - or even A major if you have those kinds of ears - combined with this. For playing dense music of a more unpredictable kind, you might rely more on this than any pre-hearing of music from the page.

I have the feeling that this is very important. Should people aspire to being able to have sound and playing mesh instantly, or just be happy when that does kick in? As we learn to sight read piano music, do we aim to go from page to sound, or do we aim to go form page to piano keys? For the beginning stages, which is the most effective? Should we also develop the ear? For this I imagine playing with chords and notes without notation, listening and inventing, and then maybe going back to written music and hearing the same thing.

landorrano@ *Reading* music is being taught. In regular school as well as in the piano lessons that I have been taking. However, in my two years of taking piano lessons, sight-reading has not been an issue. There was only one tiny booklet in a whole store of sheet music and that was in English, thus imported. The rest was related to me by the shop clerk - I can only pass that on, since my own experience is limited. Regrettably, I'm pretty far from the French border.

Veelo> Thanks for the advice. We have an acoustic piano as well as an entry-level keyboard, but it does have MIDI and some part of my mind has been thinking about how to employ it best in the quest to learn music.

keystring@ I am not far enough to really have an idea of how a piece of music sounds when I read it. I'm getting closer, but there is a long way to go. I had a couple of glorious moments when I read some notes on the sheets and I moved my hands in reaction to the intervals, knowing by feel and instinct how I'd need to place down the fingers without having to think about it. I hope I am making sense of this, it is hard to explain. The moment immediately shattered when I had to concentrate on a more difficult passage, but I see it as an important step in getting a feel for the piano that I have been lacking so far. As for the questions you're asking: they are both valid and interesting, but I am a far cry away from being able to answer them...

I have been reading over everything you wrote as well as other posts on the forum and I am mulling over some issues.

I have noticed that there is a lot of debate about learning a new piece HS or HT and I am not sure that I correctly understood the terms.

Does "learning HT" mean that you don't try the hands seperately at all and play both hands together from the start? If so - then how does it differ from sight reading? Only in the speed with which the piece is played?

Or does learning HT mean that you play a hand a couple of times HS, then combine them at the first possible instance, even though seperately the hands are still not optimized? If so - then how long would one practise HS in a truly HS way?

One point that has been stressed again and again in the threads about sight reading is that you should practise it with pieces with a lower grade than you are currently on. If that is the case, then grade 1 students would not have a level to go lower to. So should they practise with grade one pieces? Or should they wait before they advance to grade 2 before they even consider the skill of sight reading?

In other ways: is sight reading a skill you nurture from day one? Do you start HS with a beginner, then wean her from it quickly to go to HT or sight reading (whatever the exact difference there is)?

I guess what I'm trying to find out wether sight reading is a skill that I should have been trained on long ago, that I should really start to work on now after 2 years of lessons or wether that is a skill for somebody far advanced.

Barbareola,

Sight-reading is rarely (if ever) necessary when one is starting out. The best teachers emphasize it eventually, but typically it is developed more from necessity, or implied requirements.
>For instance, if one plays in an ensemble, s/he never wants to be THE ONE who is holding everyone else back from learning new selections.
>Other “outside stimului” to learning to sight-read exceptionally well, would be the desire to accompany, perhaps a chorus, where there is rarely any lead-time to “read-throughs”.
>If one were the pianist for auditions for, say, a musical, where each applicant brought in their own sheet music.
>If one were playing in a studio orchestra, where there is frequently a quick run-through before a performance or recording session. (This scene sometimes requires on-the-spot transposition expertise as well as excellent sight-reading.)

There are probably others. The important thing is that the skill is not usually called upon until the player is somewhat advanced. However, those who do possess such skill at an advanced level are highly regarded by their peers and are in demand.
Ed

It doesn't necessarily exclude the act of playing hands separate at all, no. For a further explanation, read on.



Pieces are learned hands together from the get-go when one is able to do so, or in other words, when the technique for playing each part individually has already been mastered (technique is largely acquired practicing hands separate). The reason for doing this instead of doing 1)left hand 2)right hand 3)both hands is because it saves time, for one, and because when you memorize a piece of music and more specifically the act of playing a piece of music, you do so under the pretense of "hands together." That being said, though, each hand should arguably be thoroughly memorized both separately and together to better enhance memorization.

Sight-reading is different and is an endeavor all its own and should be practiced regularly and separately from learning new pieces.



It certainly could mean this, yes. It all depends on whether or not you can already play the hands separately both musically and at, or a little faster than, speed.



It's not so much that you should practice sight-reading with lower level pieces than what you're currently learning as it is you have to. Try picking up a piece of music at the level of your current repertoire pieces. Unless you are the best of sight-readers (if that's the case, you wouldn't be on these forums with the rest of us ), this isn't the case. The reason for these decisions (http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/keyboard/ppf/1.2/1.2.PPFke.html great article) revolves around establishing an ideal, well-rounded classical pianist. Ideally, a player will be capable of sight-reading material close to what they're learning (or their pieces themselves slowly), but so long as you give attention to practicing the skill properly and regularly as all other skills at the piano, that's what's important.



This question is a difficult one. Sight-reading in my experience is a separate, but at the same time, not separate pianistic skill. Obviously you must already know how to interpret different notes and symbols, as well as any and all rhythms, but does knowing these things inside and out necessarily mean you can sight-read like the best? Not really.

In conclusion, does knowing all the above pre-requisites combined with regular practice build a competent sight-reader? This is what I believe to be the case. Of course with anything to do with learning piano, you'll hit bumps and roadblocks along the way, but with good methods and a good teacher, these will be overcome with resolve.

I think the reason I put so much into this is because this is a sensitive topic which I've been reading so much about hoping to improve, myself. Good luck and practice much.

Honestly, having a teacher may not have helped you. The important thing is that you figured out the better way. I took lessons with various teachers over a number of years and none of them talked about intervals. The last one asked me to identify key signatures, but that was about it. So many piano teachers focus on technique over anything; and if most of their students start as kids, they can take it for granted that the kid will eventually learn intervals and whatnot intuitively and at least have the requisite physical response to seeing them.

In fact, in pulling out an old book of Alfred's Chords, Scales, and Arpeggios, I'm a little taken aback by the fact that my old piano teacher had me working through scales, parallel 6ths, cadences, and such, but never went into detail about what a cadence was, or its significance! (She was a good teacher in many ways, and I and others definitely learned from her; I think that just illustrates that teaching styles are very different and unless you know what you are looking for from a teacher, you won't really know the significance of what you're not learning.) By paying attention to these things now, I'm learning in short order things that took much longer when I was younger.

But even in the case of people who start young and play for years, stories of advanced players knowing no theory or not being able to identify an interval are not uncommon. When I was in college, a classmate would impress us all and the professor by playing Liszt...sitting down and running off into seemingly amazing technical feats at the grand at the back of the lecture room. Well, one day a friend and I were singing an old choral arrangement called "River in Judea," and he was around. Seemed like a perfect opportunity to make use of such a talented pianist and we asked him to accompany us. He started, got through about 8 measures, and then stopped, saying that he was a terrible sight reader. The arrangement wasn't anything special...pretty standard.

I'm not saying he was a bad pianist--clearly he was very good; and maybe he just didn't want to play for us. But it's very easy to have had lots of piano instruction and come out of it with "advanced" technical skills but still sub-par musicianship--which is what interval recognition and sight reading are a part of.

On the other hand, I know voice teachers who likely couldn't play Liszt, but who can accompany well enough on the piano. It's been my vocal studies that have launched me on a quest to shore up my musicianship skills, and in so doing, I've had a lot of revelations about piano study and pedagogy.

In my life outside of music, I've learned that oftentimes brilliance comes from being able to see things from a different angle and how to figure out how it all comes together rather than just memorizing, learning by rote, and regurgitating what one has absorbed. Real learning is about figuring out how something works and engaging it in a way that makes it all make sense to you--breaking things down until they "click". The ability to do this, I believe, is very much a part of that amorphous concept of "talent" or "giftedness".

Just wow!

The need to learn intervals more than individual notes is clear, and was of some help to me so far. However, this goes very awkwardly together with different key signatures.

What was the level of mastery of different key signatures needed so that intervallic reading there is just as fluent as in A minor, say?

How does one reach that level ? Sure scales in itself are needed, but I tried, can play that _scale_ but not the black-white-black transitions needed for fluent intervals.

I was not going to return to this, knowing that it will probably get lost-in-the-shuffle, just as it did on the first page of posts here.

Yet, virtually every other post from our more accomplished contributors touches on it. So, perhaps I shall risk boring you further with a small amount of elaboration.

Reading music -- In reading through many and varied pieces of music, at any level, familiar and unfamiliar, one quite naturally becomes better at reading music. It is a form of PRACTICE. Simultaneously, one is becoming a better sight-reader, through recognition of keys, notes, intervals, chords, ledger lines, harmonic shifts, etc. Also, the habitual use of the hands to form those identified notes, chords, etc, adds to one’s ability to quickly repeat the physical motions in the future.

Practicing (written) music -- In sitting to practice particular passages, one is typically focusing upon some technical problem(s), like fingering (for instance). In such an instance, one is probably fully aware of the notes involved, along with their durations, and is sorting out hand positions. Actually reading the notes is probably NOT going on here, as one works on the mechanics, and yet - simultaneously, one is becoming better at Reading music: Once the fingering of this single practice problem has been learned, it is added to the player’s “repertoire” of stuff s/he can now play. When a similar musical situation is encountered in the future, the player does not have to start from scratch. AND, simultaneously, one is becoming a better sight-reader, simply with more fingering accomplishment in her/his :bag-o-tricks.

Practicing scales -- This is much more a correct fingering and memorization process than anything involving music reading. However, if one remains mindful of their major and minor keys, scales can be magic. First of all, the fingering gets the hands “used to” being in the key in question. The fingers feel “at home” in Ab major, let us say. Scales are a great way to practice playing without looking at one’s hands. Even further, the connection from keyboard to ear becomes strengthened, as does the keyboard’s geography. Does this help music reading? I am certain everyone sees where this is heading: Whenever the player encounters scale fragments in Ab major, they are no longer a mystery or a surprise! Even better, every future piece that is in Ab major is now more familiar, because it is “under the fingers” and “in the ear”. And by extension, does scale practice ever help with sight-reading? How could it not?

Sight-reading music -- Finally to the topic of the thread. Sight-reading is a particular musical skill, and a handy one to have in many instances. It can be developed specifically. There are many techniques and drills for building sight-reading capability, and several have been discussed on this thread. Also, this is far from an exhaustive list of things-that-directly-help-other-things; the list is virtually endless. Should I close the proverbial loop here by mentioning that improving sight-reading skills also improves Reading music, Practicing music, etc., etc?

One should never overlook the cumulative power of doing everything in music correctly and well. It all adds up, and makes any player BETTER.

Ed