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Russell:

Those of us who either play the piano or are involved in its construction, repair and/or regulation, or perhaps some combination of the above, all know very well that your contributions to this forum are HIGHLY valued.

I hope you will consider finishing your last as it's sure to be valued by those who do their best to avoid the delusional, those that put a high value on anything that will increase their knowledge of the instrument.

Karl Watson,
Staten Island, NY

Babylon,

Using your numbers in your last post....

1.) OEM could theoretically be used as a means to offer a better piano that one could build in house, but in reality is used to save on costs or to cover the fact that a piano 'maker' doesn't really have a house at all.

2.) not necessarily ridiculous, but the name on the fallboard of most pianos probably means less now than it ever has.

3.) UP is an older series that has been completely replaced in the US market. Master 88er gives you good advice.

4.) Fine's rankings are controversial here because people read too much into them. Mr. Fine has said many times that they are offered simply as a rough guide and based more on positioning in the market (price) than a through examination of quality. I think they can be very misleading when applied to the Asian market because in many cases fallboard names and models sold there are not the sane as what we are offered here. Perzina has always been enthusiastic about Fine's ratings because Mr. Fine has always had good things to say about their vertical models. Undertandably, they use that in their general marketing here.

5.) The May Berlin pianos that we got in the US market when they were introduced came from Parsons and were very similar to other Parsons products offered by other 'makers'. The marketing hook with them was that they were all reportedly sent to Germany for final inspection before being sent to North America.

These days, I don't think the ones offered here are coming from Parsons and the claim of being sent to Europe for final inspection is no longer made. I doubt very much that any May Berlin pianos sold in China ever saw the light of day in a German piano factory. It's just another example of how you should be careful evaluating what you have there based on what you hear and read about here.

The ways of choosing a piano are made very differently by different people. A lot of it is by "hunch" and often has nothing to do with the instrument itself.

For no others is this more true than the Chinese themselves and I shall say this is actually "good" for us in the West.

But will or 'can' it last?

The moment this will change with the Chinese themselves getting off the "image deat" realizing that many great quality consumer goods can actually be made on their own soil, it will change everything one more time.

Which will be serious.

Since the piano business is such a competitive business, there's a lot of "engineered" confusion going on, unfortunately much of it having come from China.

But China is no longer alone.

Not exactly having had the best reputation for manufactured goods before, there's no place on earth where changes are happening faster and more profoundly than in that country.

When in Germany or simply watching DW ["Deutsche Welle"] in the evening I hear again and again the Germans have long realized their industry would long have been at virtual standstill without heavily committing to China.

Today,over 8000 German companies are producing stuff there, some of it being shipped back, some staying there.

Pearl River, Pasons and Hailun are not the only ones who are taking full advantage of this new reality of cooperation and joint ventures.

The very reason a great number of Germany's best industry experts, engineers, scientists, business people and perhaps people like Lothar Thomma are today in China has to be understood within that very context.

The stakes are high for everone involved.

It's a simple fact that not one single Volkswagen,Audi, Mercedes or GM would be allowed to be sold in China without enormous commitments and investments by these companies on Chinese soil first.

Accepting that the landscape has entirely changed is not and has not been easy for everybody. For many it still insn't.

The first time we ran into Beijing made Steigermann and then later the Hailun made "Steigerman Premiums" we were actually shocked.

How could such great sounding pianos come from "China" and how could they have been offered so inexpensive?

We soon became dealers and I have to still find one single piano which has fallen apart on us or our customers.

The newly designed and manufactured pianos today by a select group of manufactureres are pushing the ante up one more notch yet. These definitely include some of the pianos mentioned.

In fact these new lines are often pianos so spectacular that putting them side by side to other,much better known and highly respected makes can become a serious challenge.

Of course not many dealers are willing to offer this opportunity to their customers knowing full well it could cost them a deal on a piano of much higher price.

It has happened to us and it's unfortunately the price to pay when not arbitrarily manipulating stock on showroom floor.

Having said this, perhaps it is indeed better not to consider some of the better - let alone "top" - Chinese made pianos at all.

Once this will change,we may not recognize the landscape around us any longer.

If and how long this can be prevented considering the sheer number of children learning piano in China today, may be an entirely different question.

Translation anybody?

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/menschen-wirtschaft/klavierbau-piano-statt-forte-11913820.html

Norbert

In contrast to the overwhelming majority opinion on this forum, I think you make a valid point, Norbert. In my ongoing search, I have been extremely surprised at the build quality and musical tone of the top end Chinese pianos.

Thanks, but I highly doubt there's an "overwhelming majority" not taking note.

For one, there's a quickly growing, very happy customer base for some of these pianos. They just can't be all wrong.

Next, should anybody understand the above posted article from the economic section of "Frankfurter Allgemeine", a major German newspaper, the smart ones in the industry have long "taking note". And adjusted in pretty major way....

In fact, these guys are busy using the new "piano world order" to their full advantage.

Norbert

As a recent buyer of a Ritmuller, I can assure you that you are not the only one.

Despite being warned by a few tuners (and several teachers) NOT to buy a Chinese piano I still did.
I wasn't extremely knowledgeable about pianos when I started but I all my research was showing that they were basing their opinion on outdated ideas from earlier days.
Then it turned out that not one of those that had warned me against buying a Hailun had actually ever worked on one or even examined one up close and thus really knew nothing about them.
Those that did examine my Hailun after I got it couldn't hide their surprise and had to begrudgingly admit that it was indeed very well built. (I would have bought a Brodmann as well).
If I had to do it all over again I would still buy either a Hailun or a Brodmann, but probably try to buy the largest one.

Mr. Google gives it a try:

Sometimes, in a quiet hour, Hannes Schimmel-Vogel heretical thoughts go through your head. Then he looks at fellow managers, think of conversations with other CEOs and circulated thoughts such as: In what a complex world we actually live in the piano industry? How much easier you could make money elsewhere and get on the career ladder?

The 42-year old blond boy who has married into the Brunswick dynasty keys and nine years leading the Company, has every reason to such reasoning. Of all the traditional piano maker Schimmel, whose instruments have generations of young school music closer to either spoiled or had to sign three years ago insolvency. Today, mold is again fairly stable, but the future is - this knowledge goes beyond the cliché - more uncertain than ever. And not only of Lower Saxony.

A great opportunity and a big problem at the same time
A few facts and figures meet, and you understand why reports of piano producers have been popular topped with a headline from the idea of ​​recycling drawer: "Piano morte". The late sixties and early seventies, the piano manufacturer in this country produced about 30,000 instruments. The early eighties, there was an initial dip, sales fell to 25,000 units. Today, the company would be more than happy to have such a number, the current production is about 11,000. Only a small part of it remains in Germany: 3000. The rest of the purchases abroad.

Third

© FRANZ BISCHOF
Hannes Schimmel-Vogel leads the Braunschweig piano manufacturer molds since 2003. He already has a bankruptcy behind
Our pianos are therefore primarily not from local factories, but in Chinese, Korean and Japanese. We serve the world, and the world supplying us. Globalization? Yes, but in contrast to a rule that is based on the same value chain. Thus Asia and China in particular a great opportunity for the German piano maker and a major problem at the same time.

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It is problematic for the industry already fast pace of the global market. If there is one sector that thinks in long cycles, it's the German piano industry. "Bechstein will survive us and future generations," says owner Stefan Freymuth and thus used a key word. Only too happy to refer the piano builders on their history, always a cause for celebration: In the coming year Bechstein, Blüthner and Steinway celebrate their 160th respectively Birthday. Two years ago, Grotrian were at 175 years and 125 years, with mold on the series. Not to mention several smaller suppliers that are soon 140 years and older.

An organically grown chaos
In retrospect, it is easy to overlook that the story of the 88 black and white keys is economically run quite variable. In the 19th Century, the technique was so far advanced that a veritable founder wave began. By the then several hundred piano factories in Germany, but survived only a dozen. 13 Manufacturers Association of Piano counts today as members. This former reputation does not protect from the off. The company Ibach about, which is dominated by the title of "oldest piano manufacturer in the world, since 1794" adorned presented, in 2007 the production. Others, such as the Lower Franconian manufacturer Seiler were taken.

Who wants to know how the survivors tick today must be prepared for long journeys. The Saxon Seifhennersdorf is at the end of Germany, 100 kilometers from Dresden, on the southeastern edge of the Republic. A place that has lost 40 percent since the fall of its inhabitants. Here once stood a great dress and a shoe factory. But that's history. Reality, however, is the largest employer in the area - and this is now a piano maker. Several renovated cream production facility with elongated box windows harboring C. Bechstein piano factory AG, as the listed company called officially. The term "factory" does not really. Yes, there are computer-controlled drilling and milling machines, it also here. But the 150 staff are mainly manual workers. Bands in vain. The production looks like a better carpenter's workshop. , Equivalent to the industry standard.

Curious whether now visiting Bechstein in Seifhennersdorf, mold in Braunschweig or Blüthner in Großpösna in Leipzig: The impression of an organically grown chaos firmer. At least one company with all visitors. Their understanding of the initially assessed as exorbitant price of instruments grows. Perhaps it could be a wing similar to a car is screwed together glued together on one or two days. Whether a pianist would have been delighted with it is another question. And so the manufacturers take time - at least those who occupy what they call the premium segment.

Producers seek their salvation in the Asia-cheap rail
Until they have one wing is finished, it can take nine months or 18 Alone take the drying procedures for the wood and last and last. In the drying chamber with temperatures around 30 degrees the minute and the hour is not a relevant unit. Elsewhere there is timelessness. Infinite patience seems a Klavierbaumeister own when he worked in his little cubby hammers, lay hold long produced for finished. The felt of each of these parts that strike the strings will put many dozen times with fine needle sticks, to make it more elastic. With small flames the hammer handles are heated to adjust their position to tenths of a millimeter.

Is it any wonder that a product manufactured in Germany beginner piano beats with at least 7000 Euros to the price? That for the standard piano must pay 30,000 euros? And a wing sometimes can cost 150,000 euros? Wonders who likes and can afford it. Of the concert pianist alone could no agency life, not even by Russian oligarchs, who are occasionally intervene with German manufacturers. Since even the demand of all Germans together modestly excludes - add 82 million people to 3000 annually to a new acoustic piano from German manufacturing - Demand must come from somewhere else. And so is the great dream of the German piano industry: China. A dream and a nightmare at the same time. After all, who in this country can suddenly have a piano for 1500 euros, which you can easily begin to wonder if it actually has to be made in Germany.

And so many producers now seek their salvation in the Asia-cheap rail. Bechstein has with the Chinese manufacturer Hailun Piano signed a cooperation agreement, which runs for a year. A "quality product made in China" promises CEO Karl Schulze, and so it really looks like quality, is "designed by Bechstein" on the models. Similar mold goes in front of the middle kingdom. Since 2008, the Brunswick working with a manufacturing partner, who is also their importer.

High proportion of manual work
If you get involved as a more expensive supplier in China, the threat of danger. Why, is likely to ask some customers, I want to spend much money for supposedly German workmanship, the manufacturer produced in China anyway? To avoid such thoughts, the Germans eighth meticulously on brand separation. In China, no mold-made pianos, no wings and no Bechstein Blüthner pianos. In China can produce mold tools with the beautiful German name May Berlin, Bechstein instruments with the beautiful German name Zimmermann and Blüthner instruments with the beautiful German name Irmler.

Given the high proportion of manual labor, the cheap Chinese wages suggests dramatically reflected in the price. About half of the production cost of a piano, expects the chairman of the Association of Piano and Director of Grotrian, Burkhard Stein before, attributable to the wage. Makes 40 percent of the material, the rest come from, among other sales and profit margin. This explains why a piano dealer as the Austrian company Zifreind the Irmler-wing "F 160 Studio" ("by Blüthner") with a suggested retail price of 11,590 euros offered, while even a little smaller original Blüthner Model "11" will cost 35,856 euros.

"The trees do not grow to the sky"
The hopes of the industry are on budget-conscious Germans and especially to the Chinese themselves, the Chinese people as the piano without any ifs and buts apply - at least since pianist Lang Lang has to serve as a role model. The 30-year-old is a built-up of clever marketing pop star who not only play the piano well, but also can tell nice stories that are fit for the legend. At the age of two years, Lang Lang is on record that he had seen a cartoon with Tom and Jerry. In the short film "The Cat Concerto" from 1946, Tom has a star pianist in coping with the disorders of his young opponent. His performance, rapid Hungarian Rhapsody no. 2 by Franz Liszt is, still one of the favorite pieces of the star, for the campaigns for Steinway.

Supposedly Lang Lang have moved millions of young Chinese to play. And supposedly there are 80 million in China who want to learn to play the piano. 80 million - if only one-thousandth of it would be a tool set of German manufacturing, the German manufacturers were their concerns going on. But it is not so simple. Schimmel-Vogel warns against unrealistic expectations, particularly as the brand awareness of the Chinese is anything but strong. And even many of them falsely suggesting a German origin. It's not just the Germans themselves, who provided their China-production with German piano names. There are also the Chinese themselves that make up German. "The look in the phone book again and look to a typical German name of" an industry insider says with just a hint of irony in his voice.

So then arise pianos of shock "Ritmüller". Even before the brand "Edelweiss" frighten you back not know Piano Association official stone. But he also knows that to buy large Chinese manufacturers such as Pearl River German technology and even local Klavierbaumeister recruit. Stein's conclusion: "The trees do not grow to the sky, not in China."

As a pianist who does not need notes
All the more surprising that in such a branch manager and chief not close the dozen the piano lid. It promises great growth apparently not currently still hope for a breakthrough in the future. Ensure the piano belongs in every economic cycle of the losers. In a downturn, the industry serves as a leading indicator, the upswing as lagging indicator. Which means: When it comes down to the economy, the piano makers are the first to notice that the. It goes up, they are the last to benefit.

All this seems to interest people as Bechstein chief Karl Schulze little. The feisty former piano dealer has made the Group after a bankruptcy in the nineties to a successful business. Bechstein is one of the few companies where it verified such statements. The listed company must publicly and broadly accountable. Karl Schulze appears like a pianist who needs no notes, but his score in his sleep dominated. Of the heruntergeratterten figures hangs above all: The pre-tax return is almost 10 percent. At the pinnacle of success increases the 64-year-old Schulze expire. Its 20-percent stake in Bechstein he sold to the new owner Freymuth, and in 2014 he left the chief piano stool.

With family tradition and responsibility
A few years longer, the relatively young chef at Blüthner and mold make their management talent. Christian Blüthner-Haessler sounds confident. For decades we have had no operating loss, he says. And the current consumer spending? "40 years of the GDR have not we done, then it also creates such a Euro-crisis."

Schimmel-Vogel is a little quieter. After all, he already felt how it feels to a bankruptcy ". Like a roller coaster ride, where you do not know where it goes," Schimmel plays only "marginal" the piano, and who asks him what binds him to the instrument gets replied: ". Difficult to say" For him, the piano is a "mix of anachronism and civility." And this feeling fades with categories such as family tradition and responsibility for almost 200. Schimmel, after almost a decade ago succeeded his father at the head, once cleaned up, fired the old management and tangled with the union.

Today, the business management has become quieter, but he still knows ". It is trite, in the end it comes to sales and profits, and therefore, to reduce costs," Long pause. "But it has a charm that holds a da and motivated every day." Although perhaps elsewhere could earn easy money.

My only input here is, my cousin has a Ritmuller upright (I don't know which model) that's probably around half a decade old, and I was absolutely shocked because it had the best action out of any upright I've ever played. Including the nifty Steinway upright they had at Carnegie Hall.

Norbert,

I believe the OP is a Chinese national living in China. He gives every appearance of being smart, thoughtful, well-educated, and fluent in English. He shows no indication of being blinded by image. I don't know that your predictions, while always interesting (even if somewhat repetitive ) , relate to any of his specific questions.

Same with the link. Karl Schulze and Hannes Schimmel-Vogel have their own issues, but The OP's issue is trying to sort through what's available to him at this moment in time.

The viewpoint of Deutsche Welle is naturally tilted toward the survival of German industry in a changing world. In that sense China is extremely important in terms of partnering, selling into, and accessing lower-cost skilled labor. There's nothing wrong with any of that, and Germany's realization of its opportunities in China has been to its benefit. But when was the last time you were in China? The focus of the average consumer there is somewhat different from Deutshe Welle's. And for the piano consumer, even locating and hiring a competent, unaffiliated, independent-minded technician to evaluate a possible new piano for purchase is a bit of an issue.

I have no agenda whatsoever if OP buys a Chinese piano or not, be it Essex, Yamaha, Kawai Perzina, Ritmuller or whatever.

If like in our city of Vancouver B.C. the prejudice against Chinese pianos is so much among local technicians simply because they have seen only the worst of those brought in by the competion [on purpose?] hauling in a tech in could also be of no great help.

Those who can actually play and make up their own mind, are my own favourite species. And those buy all kinds of pianos.

Like the teacher who recently visited with her student virtually shouting at me she "would never recommend a Chinese piano" - and then bought one herself.

Meantime ask your local dealer for the "certificate of origin" where the fine piano you are admiring on his floor may actually originate from.

Or perhaps 90% of its parts and components.

You may be in for a surprise.

In fact, even your "independent technician" may not have known that..

Norbert

I was once regulating piano in a piano store in Hong Kong. A customer came by and asked me for my opinions on inexpensive and non-Chinese made pianos in the store. I tried out two pre-owned pianos: one was German and the other one was British. I played the same piece of music on both pianos, and found that they both were out of tune and out of regulation. I told the customer that they are playable but will need some works, and asked which tone he likes better. He said he has no idea, but just doesn't want to get a Chinese one. There were quite a number of Chinese pianos with similar price range to that German and British in the store. But he didn't listen, or even look at any one of them.
I explained to him that there are many German-Chinese and Japanese-Chinese semi-finished pianos and German designed, or Japanese designed, Chinese pianos with good quality and a rather "affordable" price. But he just didn't want to get something Chinese-related.
Well, being a Chinese, sometimes I really have to think twice, or more, when I am deciding to buy things that are made in China too. Because I have experiences getting stuffs from China that didn't last long or even didn't work, and read many news regarding the quality and safety issues of Chinese products. It is the image of "Chinese-made" and our experience with Chinese made products that make it hard to believe that Chinese is capable of making quality products.
Globalization brings skills and knowledge, as well as opportunities in the manufacturing industry in China. It won't take long to for Chinese to learn and make quality products, but may take decades to convince others that quality products can be made in China.

Those who are confident in their own ears and fingers are fortunate in many ways, but may still make inquires into the build quality of a piano. Their concern in doing so is based on the long-term prognosis, not in how the thing sounds or even plays at that moment in time.

I think that is the nature of the OP's inquiry. He's not dead-set against buying Chinese. He's not at all like the typical Chinese consumer that KC Ng describes. The choices he mentions are all Chinese. I doubt if he's even considering the possibility of one of those pianos falling apart. It's more about the piano's ability to maintain its level of playing quality over the years after purchase. This is a normal concern that is not exclusive to Chiense pianos.

It seems likely that those of us in the West can't really give him all that much specific guidance due to the confusing fallboard names and even model numbers in use in China today, although I thought Russell gave him some very good and very pertinent advice. Whether you've been to China or not, I'm sure you're aware that many cheapo made-in-China pianos are for sale there that their manufacturers would not dare send here. It does seem however that if the OP can find a piano from Perzina, Parsons, or Hailun that is exported for sale in the West, and he likes it well enough to choose it, it should need only normal maintenance.

If the tech community in Vancouver is poisoned against Chinese pianos, that's unfortunate. That's not the case where I live. Then again, we don't get that many teachers rushing into shops demanding to buy un-Chinese and leaving the shop exhilirated about the Chinese piano they just bought.

This is true but has often to do with nothing else but 'price'

Yesterday we delivered a brand new, freshly flown in Sauter grand directly to waiting customer.

I can say in all honesty that this was the perhaps finest piano we have ever sold.

Together with Estonia, these pianos elicit an entirely different, much deeper & profound response from owners than those just being "happy" with their newly bought Chinese or whatever other oriental pianos.

It was an experience to see a fully grown man, piano teacher and tough ex-policeman literally touched to tears having realized a lifelong dream. Even we we stunned.

Thanks for the invitation to dinner after, a pleasure to celebrate together! [next on us of course... ]

Perhaps it's time to rethink our business model, leave the endless bickering about Oriental pianos to others and move exclusively to those which really seem to make a difference.

Norbert

The overgeneralization, labelling all local technicians here in Vancouver as suffering from discrimination against Chinese instrument is a bit inflammatory.

Indicating all Vancouver technicians suffer from this malady is of no great help in itself. How exactly would you like me to view this statement Norbert? I was under the impression that I have offered considerable assistance with your products, both in sales and support.



The tech community is a poisoned atmosphere in Vancouver for sure but the reason is not because of Chinese instruments; more a concerted effort to ostracize the independent technician and dealer along with who sells successfully the lines of higher quality Chinese instruments.

This was proven out when a gathering to show Hailun was boycotted intentionally several years back.

Back to regular programming....

Dan:

There been a few exceptions like you, thank you very much.

But I was recently told by one prominent PTG member who is in contact with a lot of others here that the only reason why few techs in this city take interest in Brodmann, Hailun or Ritmueller pianos, is because "they are Chinese"

Hoping this doesn't include the majority of their customers these days...

Norbert

I have also been made aware of the way Chinese pianos are viewed locally. Some of this, in part, could be because of the Chinese instruments that landed here in the early nineties.

But the same could be stated about the Korean instruments in the early eighties, or the Japanese instruments of the late fifties and early sixties. A lot of resistance was evident upon the realization of those instruments landing on our docks and being sold in the marketplace.

I suppose we could say that misogyny is found in a lot of places these days including Vancouver.

I have no idea what the majority of their customers’ view is because I have distanced myself from most of the technicians locally.

I tune and repair pianos. Where they are manufactured, by whom, and who owns them is of little consequence in my shop.

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls.

My mistake; I just returned to correct that. I meant xenophobia.

Reading this post makes me curious about Perzina so I went to the Perzina distributor for the US and tried all 3 Perzina grands. I really like the sound and the look of it. To my ear, it sounds like a more expensive European piano. If I were shopping for Kawai RX vs Perzina, I would definitely give Perzina pianos serious consideration because they seem to be just as good, if not better and at much better price.

Only problem I have with Perzina is their grands don't have much of a track record and they are made in China...image problems. But hey, Iphones, Ipads, Ipods, are all made in China and the world loves them enough to make Apple the largest company in the US.

I also feel that the quality of a good piano is in the design and the components. Yes, I read that this is only the tip of the iceberg, but common....the modern piano is not a high tech instrument. It has been around for decades with only a few tweaks here and there. If you have good workers who are well trained, what's so hard about putting the parts together? It's not rocket science. Common sense tells me that fear of German design pianos with German parts assembled in China is probably blown out of proportion by the competitors.

This is my opinion and I'm not a professional pianist. I would say consumers like me are the majority of piano shoppers today. Traditional companies are taking notes and that's why Steinway have Essex.