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#1980688 - 10/30/12 07:59 PM Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350
BillTheSlink Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/12
Posts: 108
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I am pretty sure I want the AP-620. It looks nice and is in my price range and everything, but there is something I am slightly confused upon.

The AP-620 records and plays MIDI files easily to an SD card, but there is no simple way of actually recording the audio right?

The PX-350 easily records audio to a flash drive, but to play and create MIDI files you have to hook it up to your computer right?

See this sort sucks for me and I am having a hard time deciding if this is indeed the case. I want to be able to download and play MIDI files to aid in my learning, but I still want to be able to easily record audio files so when I get some time under my belt I can get in on our online recitals. Am I missing something or have I misread the websites and manuals?
_________________________
Currently I am without a piano, but when I get mine back I will be working on "The Complete Piano Player", as well as Neely's "How to Play from a Fake Book. I am spending my time working on theory and learning how to construct chords currently.


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#1980707 - 10/30/12 09:00 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
I believe the AP-620 is based on the PX-330. That being the case, I think that, regardless of feature set, you should consider that you will probably find the PX-350 to simply sound better and have a better feel.

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#1980709 - 10/30/12 09:08 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
@BillTheSlink,

Be sure to read the other posts above (for "Casio AP-620" / "Casio AP-650") as it is true that these models have a very short decay which is not quite acoustic-like in my opinion, and, there are others here that agree on this.

You would do better to look at digitals from Roland, Yamaha & Kawai, as you will not find short decay (i.e., sustainable resonance) on these models. The Kawai EP3, for example, has good sustain, for $1,100. Or, for 2K, you can get the new Kawai ES7 which has some improved features, over the EP3.

And, there are other good choices with Roland, and, Yamaha.

Try them out first if you can, before you buy.

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#1980723 - 10/30/12 09:50 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
BillTheSlink Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/12
Posts: 108
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I have listened to both. Personally I understand the current technology of digital unless you get into some serious cash, isn't going to match that put out by an acoustic piano. The Kawia ES7 has only 32 tones and 2 recording tracks and costs $2,000.00 without the stand and peddle lyre, while the AP-620 can be had under the $1,400 mark and is a console and comes with adjustable bench. I am afraid that's comparing apples to oranges. It is just out of my price range and doesn't have the sounds and recording capabilities I want. I did time a mid-range loudly struck chord on a PX-350 feed into monitor speakers with sustain pedal and had well over fifteen seconds of sound with fairly realistic decay before it faded away. There is a video on YouTube replicating the same results. Personally, at my experience level I don't think I could want/need more sustain and I am hard of hearing anyway so I likely wouldn't notice. While I do appreciate the advice I am mainly concerned with the original question.
_________________________
Currently I am without a piano, but when I get mine back I will be working on "The Complete Piano Player", as well as Neely's "How to Play from a Fake Book. I am spending my time working on theory and learning how to construct chords currently.


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#1980791 - 10/31/12 02:40 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
BillTheSlink Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/12
Posts: 108
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I found the answer after some serious digging online. It took a lot of time and some inventive search strings to say the least. Thank you for the help. I will be going with the PX-350 even though I really like the looks of the AP620. Either that or talk myself into waiting to test out the AP650 when it comes out. That would be tough.


Edited by BillTheSlink (10/31/12 02:42 AM)
_________________________
Currently I am without a piano, but when I get mine back I will be working on "The Complete Piano Player", as well as Neely's "How to Play from a Fake Book. I am spending my time working on theory and learning how to construct chords currently.


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#1980875 - 10/31/12 10:09 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
mrfancypants Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 9
If you don't need the additional sounds of the PX-350/AP-650 maybe the PX-850 or 750 would be an option for you. They look similar to the AP series and recording songs seems to be easy (from what I understand you can record .wav files to a USB drive or hook up to your PC using a USB cable to record midi files).

The new Casios have an improved action and new sounds, so I'm not sure if buying a 620 at this point would be a good choice (although I could imagine that you can a 620 for much less than they are listed as right now). And as much as I like the specifications of Casios, if you want a good looking DP you should perhaps look at some other companies (e.g. Kawai CN-24).

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#1981224 - 11/01/12 06:27 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
BillTheSlink Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/12
Posts: 108
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Thank you,

I do need the extra sounds but just as importantly the extra recording track capabilities. I am currently trying to see if I can work into the budget a Kawai CN43 but it would take several more months of saving, but then again if I have to wait on the Casio 350's to come out.....Basically if I can't wait then I have to bite the bullet and go with the PX-350 and optional stand and pedals. Decisions...Decisions...
_________________________
Currently I am without a piano, but when I get mine back I will be working on "The Complete Piano Player", as well as Neely's "How to Play from a Fake Book. I am spending my time working on theory and learning how to construct chords currently.


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#1981276 - 11/01/12 09:37 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
mrfancypants Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 9
I think the CN43 is a discontinued model you can probably get it for about the price of an AP-650 (although it is perhaps not fair to compare a last generation Kawai to a new generation Casio).

Comparing the sound and action of the more interesting pianos in a shop might be a good way to make up your mind.

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#1981279 - 11/01/12 09:41 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
leemax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/10
Posts: 501
Loc: pacific nw, usa
I haven't chimed in here yet, but I for the record, I've got an AP-620 that I have had for about 2 years and I am very pleased with it. I still have not played another digital that I would replace it with, even some of the more popular and expensive ones. I do not like the textured keys on the new Casios, and I wasn't happy with the sound the one time I briefly played a privia with the AIR sound engine. I would like to spend more time with the new ones, and see the 650, but I think the keys alone would be a deal-breaker for me.
_________________________
Lee

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#1981417 - 11/01/12 04:18 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: leemax]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Originally Posted By: leemax
I do not like the textured keys on the new Casios, and I wasn't happy with the sound the one time I briefly played a privia with the AIR sound engine. I would like to spend more time with the new ones, and see the 650, but I think the keys alone would be a deal-breaker for me.


The textured "Ivory Feel" keys is something I don't like much either, as the smoother "glossy" ones on the older model (AP-620) are obviously better in feel than the new ones on the AP-650.

Also, it remains to be seen if the textured keys will show wear (and, flake off) like they do with many of the Roland digitals.

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#1999254 - 12/14/12 03:48 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Extra note:

Pleased be advised of the short tonal decay of the samples in Casio's digitals, as this has not been improved much even with the newest models. Read here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1985491/Casio%20AP-650.html

The Kawai EP3/ES7 (for example) are pianos with far better decay and overall harmonic resonance.

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#1999345 - 12/14/12 10:08 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: pv88]
dmd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/09
Posts: 1817
Loc: Pennsylvania
I have owned the AP-620, albeit for a short period of time.

I have played the PX-350.

I now own the ES7.

For my money, it is not even close.

The finest sound and playability factor all lies in the ES7.

The only downside of the ES7 is that the beautiful sound you get through phones does not hold up through the onboard speakers. It gets a little thin a louder volumes.

I tried to improve the by attaching my Yamaha monitors (HS80M) but that did not get me to the "phone" sound.

So, I have now upgraded to a pair of FOCAL CMS-40 powered monitors and I think I am there. I also can now combine the sound of my inboard speakers (at a low volume) with the Focals and the blend is beautiful.
_________________________
Don

Current: ES7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 audio device, SennHeiser HD555 Phones, Racvenscroft275, Ivory II American Concert D

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#2060626 - 04/07/13 04:08 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
pianoworldanon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 62
I regretted buying the Casio AP-620. Sounds not only muffled but has serious reliably issues in terms of software / electronics that other customers have also reported where the piano would remain in the "please wait" state. Very disappointed. In addition, it's a bear to get this fixed.


Edited by pianoworldanon (04/07/13 04:08 AM)

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#2060862 - 04/07/13 04:59 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: pianoworldanon]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
If you registered your AP-620 online, it is probably still under warranty. Casio extends the warranty two additional years if you register your product online during the first 30 days.

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#2060865 - 04/07/13 05:04 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: galaxy4t]
pianoworldanon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/03/13
Posts: 62
regarding the 30 days, I don't think that's true. I registered it after the 30 days and still go the warranty. What I'm most afraid of is that this pattern of terminal failure will happen again after the 3 years. It's a QA part issue or design issue that is inherent in the brand.


Edited by pianoworldanon (04/07/13 05:04 PM)

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#2061050 - 04/07/13 10:30 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: pianoworldanon]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
I haven't heard about this specific issue before. What does Casio support say? I own a PX-575-an older Casio and have owned it for 4 years. Haven't encountered anything like this from the user interface. It has been very stable. Contact Casio support and see if there is a patch available to fix this.

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#2061154 - 04/08/13 04:46 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3519
Loc: Northern England.
For audio files, just save the song you`re doing, and play back the recording (which plays audibly through the piano tones) either through the "line out", or as I do, the headphone socket, straight into the line in of your computer. The free programme Audacity will enable you to save this easily as an audio file. It is fun to do, and watch it happening before your very ryes!
_________________________
"I'm playing all the right notes but not necessarily in the right order." Eric Morecambe

""

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#2061187 - 04/08/13 08:27 AM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Pitty the Kawai es7 is so expensive in the US. In Europe it would be roughly the same price and the 'problem' as far as I can describe it is indeed in the decay of the Casio sound. It does sustain a long time in the current px350 series, but it drops somehow very fast after the first attack in ' fullness' of the sound. Somehow it doesn't glue well for certain types of (classical-) music. The base sample set on the x20 x30 series is the same recording as on the new x50 series . They just made the last sustain phase longer and added some enhanced string effects , but the basic character is the same. So if you don't like the previous sound of the Casios , the new ones will not truly convince you either, despite longer sustain.

Apart from that the hardware is still obvious less 'Pro' than from the well know brands. Look only at the tiny little pedal set on the Casio series (made for small children only ?) and very plastic casing of most of the instruments and you know what I mean. I do not blame them, cause you can't have the most expensive material AND still sell it in this price range and for the portables it save weight , but it doesn't give you the impression of durability. All in all I think you get what you pay for and you have to decide for yourself if that is good enough. If the KAWAI's were at the same price level in the US as here in Europe I would suggest to save for one of those. In your situation I can understand the difference is to big and Casio well worth the money. Just don't expect the same level of hardware+sound quality and lifetime as from Roland , Yamaha and Kawai.

Last word; if Casio had decided to record a new and better sampleset for the grand-piano and couple that with the new Air processing and features, they would be much much more tempting. It was a deal breaker for me after really really trying to like the Casio.

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#2061253 - 04/08/13 12:00 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: JFP]
andy0140 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 26
Originally Posted By: JFP

Last word; if Casio had decided to record a new and better sampleset for the grand-piano and couple that with the new Air processing and features, they would be much much more tempting. It was a deal breaker for me after really really trying to like the Casio.


Pretty much hit the nail on the head there, and echoes my thoughts which i've already brought in to this forum. For some the sound will be acceptable. For others (including myself) the initial decay on the tone fails miserably.

Disapointing this wasnt in Casio's R&D plans after the AP-x20 range was released. But hey, they did increase the length of the sample as I understand it (by up to 3 times)...Just forgot to improve the initial decay of the overall sound, which is equally, if not more important.

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#2061257 - 04/08/13 12:08 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
Tom Fine Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/23/12
Posts: 37
Loc: Boston
It seems like this issue could be solved without a full resampling of notes. The software should be able to control that initial drop-off immediately following the attack while working with existing samples. You could add another menu item to the function button to control it: INITIAL DECAY: [1,2,3].

I'm pretty sure that Mike Martin said the PX150/350 have the ability to do firmware updates if needed. This could be an optional download for those who want it.

I suspect the only real problem with doing this is a marketing one. Give people a little control over the envelope and then they'll want more, at which point you're competing with other models, like the 5S.

But of course the best companies don't let such foolish marketing concerns get in the way of satisfying customer needs, right?

Also, just for perspective, this isn't something that's really a problem for me as an out-of-practice intermediate. I can hear the difference in some of the samples that have been posted, but I'm not playing those kinds of pieces at this point.

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#2061341 - 04/08/13 04:00 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: Tom Fine]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
"I am also working on some alternate presets which be available for download some of which will have a lower "initial attack" which I believe will change the perceived decay issue."

The above is a quote from Mike regarding the PX-5S from another forum. It seems the initial attack issue is being raised on the PX-5S as it's release is about a week away. This really isn't anything new as every Casio I've ever played has a short initial attack fade. I don't know if it is caused by software, hardware or both. But it is disappointing they chose to not do much to improve this.

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#2061349 - 04/08/13 04:33 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386

Based on my statement how can you say we're not responding or doing anything to improve this perception?

Take a listen to this clip

https://soundcloud.com/casiomusicgear/privia-pro-px-5s-acoustic

While the PX-5S has only been at a few public events at this point, I have yet to hear anyone that has played it make any comment about the length or the decay of the piano samples. This is including many professional players such as Larry Dunn, Joe Sample, Stephan De.Reine and many others.

This is a video camera recording of Stephan De.Reine from Saturday:




Edited by Mike_Martin (04/08/13 04:40 PM)
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2061375 - 04/08/13 04:58 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi Mike ,

I'm trying to interpret your response in the right way; do you say that the AP presets are any different (improved ?! ) from the current PX..50 series , like the PX350 / PX850 ?

By the way thank you , this is finally the first nice and long AP only sound-cloud demo we got (been a request of mine for a while). The others we're either mixed , or with long reverb. In this way everyone can judge for him/herself wether the AP is to your liking.

Personal note: I had the PX5S in my pre-order basket more then twice now (including the MIDI workaround for half-pedaling), but after giving the PX150 / 850 another look in the shop , I wasn't convinced yet about the AP sound. Of course this is also a matter of personal taste, so don't let anyone be influenced by my judgement and try for yourself. In the end I didn't order, because I first wanted to hear more AP presets from the PX5S. So keep them coming ;-)

Current shortlist, PX5S (lightweight/ many many features / price), FP-80 (renowned Roland hardware quality and sound quality) , perhaps Numa Concert (???), or go full software with VPC 1 (best keybed). Can't decide...

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#2061394 - 04/08/13 05:19 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Here is another....you can hear some of the damper resonance effects in this one:
https://soundcloud.com/casiomusicgear/privia-pro-px-5s-acoustic-1

The PX-5S is a fully editable instrument. Within the next few weeks we should have a several banks of sounds for download. In regards to the piano it can be changed radically to the point of where it doesn't resemble a piano.

Everything about the touch response, the EQ filters, effects, damper resonsance, sympathetic resonance amounts...etc can be changed.


Edited by Mike_Martin (04/08/13 05:20 PM)
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2061406 - 04/08/13 05:36 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Last question, because that was a thing that bothered me a bit on the other PX's ; will there also be only three preset touch curves, or a finer gradation (more curves) or even user-curve for the PX5 ?

Thanks.

Like the Dolce piano by the way, pity it breaks off in the end - would have loved to here the full sustain die out in the end chord (keep damper down or hands on the keys until the sound is completely gone).

But you can't have it all ;-)

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#2061411 - 04/08/13 05:45 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: BillTheSlink]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
There are 3 curves but each preset can be further modified beyond the global velocity curve.
_________________________
-Mike Martin
Casio America

Casio Music Forums
Privia Pro PX-5S Audio Demos

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#2061412 - 04/08/13 05:47 PM Re: Need someone knowledgeable with both Casio AP620 and PX350 [Re: Mike_Martin]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 853
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Mike,
All due respect to you and the hard work you put in. My comments were directed to some of the posts critical of the short initial attack in that long thread elsewhere. I do think the new sound cloud demo of the 5S shows it in a more favorable light. I did have a chance over Easter to play the 150/350. Yes the overall sustain is better, but I do notice that it behaves similar to my old 575 and dies off quicker than desired. In my opinion, there's still some room for improvement, but there's no denying the effort is being made.

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