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#1982166 - 11/03/12 11:58 AM Homemade Piano Action
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
So, yesterday, i went to metro hardwood, picked up some wood and bought a coping saw. Man my arms are sore!

The video is here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8T8slJ6rnI&feature=plcp
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#1982197 - 11/03/12 01:00 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I just realized im missing the backcheck!
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#1982210 - 11/03/12 01:29 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Well,
You're missing a few more components that just the back check.
check out photo number six of this album.

There has to be some type of let-off for the jack to escape, for example.

AD Lexow action
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1982321 - 11/03/12 06:38 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2407
Loc: Olympia, WA
Congrats on your project! I'm sure you've already learned a lot. I've never tried making one from scratch. If I did, it would be fun to make one of those giant ones. The Emil Fries Piano Hospital and School for the Blind in Vancouver Washington had a great one - it must have been 3 or 4 times the size of a normal one. The key was at least two feet long! Talk about inertia problems though...!

Here's a little picture I found of a large scale Renner model:
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Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1982374 - 11/03/12 08:15 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Well, i decided to tear it apart and start again. I learned that as long as the hammer has enough inertia to carry itself to the string, there is no need for the jack to have a let off button (if there is a back check, but why wouldn't there be?)I appreciate the feedback!
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#1982389 - 11/03/12 09:12 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4217
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

How about something for the mallet to strike?....the straight piece of a coat hanger or something. It would have to set it into the base....
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1982443 - 11/04/12 01:13 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon

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#1982454 - 11/04/12 02:20 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1817
Loc: Mexico City
Really amazing!

First time I see the Hickman action.

Are there any pianos already using the Hickman Action?

Is there a vertical version of the Hickman action?



Edited by Gadzar (11/04/12 02:21 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1982456 - 11/04/12 02:42 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Hello Rafael,

I think there were a few made in the late 1920's. About 5-6 years ago, one was for sale, but I don't know what happened to it. They were only in grands as I recall.

The design was by Dr.Clarence Hickman, who was working for the Ampico Co, who made the reproducing roll player systems in the 1920's. He was trying to simplify the design so that there would be less adjustments needed etc. It never made it into production, other than a few prototypes.


Edited by Grandpianoman (11/04/12 02:43 AM)
Edit Reason: correction

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#1982458 - 11/04/12 02:47 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21674
Loc: Oakland
It would probably be easier to make using composites.
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Semipro Tech

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#1982460 - 11/04/12 02:50 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Gadzar Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/15/06
Posts: 1817
Loc: Mexico City
I wonder why not! Apparently it is far superior to the "old" Christofori/Erard's design.

Edit: I am talking about the Hickman action not going to production.


Edited by Gadzar (11/04/12 02:51 AM)
_________________________
Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx

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#1982463 - 11/04/12 03:06 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
can't see how the pianist know if the hammer have the right energy.

the advantage of the roller and jack is the feedback provided to the pianist.

just before the roller leaves the jack, the pianist have been able to correct and to mold the energy of the last moments of propulsion.

first part ; acceleration
second part : manipulation of stroke because of the tactile feedback.

Generally speaking, we try to limit the duration of the friction moment, so the inertia of the hammer is more perceived, the pianist need feedback while he accelerate the hammer, if there is then a moment where he can again change something, then the control on tone is optimum.

Apparently, with a straight even acceleration as the fall of a weight, the roller leaves the jack very soon, before Forte, I believe that the pianist is adbsorbing the initial brake of jack and drop friction to accelerate then from there, so most of the energy is provided by the weight of the arm, and acceleration control by the wrist and the fingers. To play like this , some predicteable letoff resistance may be present.

The energy concentrates (bend) in the shank and the key, then the way it is freed is what allows tone manipulation.

A good pianist have a very relaxed hand that perceive all the feedback from the roller, that is how the melody can be emphased, you cannot have the fingers falling with differnt speed , but you can modify the speed of the last moments.

ALso a note impacted a little too strong can be breaked/slowed a little because of the feedback during letoff

may be that impact action provide similar sensations but I doubt of it.

Possibly a good action for celesta or glockenspiel.

I d be curious to see one anyway.



Edited by Kamin (11/04/12 07:51 AM)
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#1982493 - 11/04/12 06:14 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Seems to me there would be significantly less friction at the point of letoff. I bet it would be wonderful for pianissimo expression. As a pianist, I often judge a piano by how easily it can be played and controlled softly. The jack/knuckle system is a constant problem point where friction and wear are concerned. I'd love to play a piano that had a Hickman action to see how it feels.
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#1982511 - 11/04/12 07:54 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: Gadzar]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Gadzar
I wonder why not! Apparently it is far superior to the "old" Christofori/Erard's design.

Edit: I am talking about the Hickman action not going to production.

I'll bet it was a manufacturing and maintenance problem to have the hammer, action parts, and keystick all pinned together so that you can't remove the hammer without unpinning something.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#1982525 - 11/04/12 08:52 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
I am unsure it apply, but Pfeiffer demonstrated that a linked action is less efficient, that the hammer have to be free.

here it seem to be, sort of, but all the intermediate part have to be put in motion, and the hammer pin is not fixed in position.

Are there 2 sorts of propulsion? one for light playing or repetition, and one for full blow ?
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1982896 - 11/05/12 08:12 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
Well, i decided to tear it apart and start again. I learned that as long as the hammer has enough inertia to carry itself to the string, there is no need for the jack to have a let off button (if there is a back check, but why wouldn't there be?)I appreciate the feedback!


Lokk closely at what is happening at about 0:09 in your video. If the hammer was hitting a string at this point, you would have what is called "double-striking". The hammer would bounce back and forth between the string and the jack. That is why you need the jack to "let-off' from pushing the hammer (by way of the hammer shank butt) and for the hammer to be stopped by the backcheck, so that the butt won't hit the jack even though it has "tripped" at the let-off point.
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Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1982899 - 11/05/12 08:21 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
All:

When I look at the Hickman action, the first thing I notice is that it works on the "over-centered" principle, like the latch on old suitcases or like locking your knee or elbow. There is a lot of strain involved with this sort of thing. Mathematically the leverage becomes infinite. In reality something just "gives". In this case I think the pinning would take a real beating and not last long.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1982932 - 11/05/12 09:14 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: UnrightTooner]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:

When I look at the Hickman action, the first thing I notice is that it works on the "over-centered" principle, like the latch on old suitcases or like locking your knee or elbow. There is a lot of strain involved with this sort of thing. Mathematically the leverage becomes infinite. In reality something just "gives". In this case I think the pinning would take a real beating and not last long.

I don't see how the forces on any pin in the Hickman action would be greater than the force on a normal hammer shank to flange center pin or the jack center pin. The force would be infinite if one end of the red jack were constrained from moving. But whenever that jack is in a straight line the upper end is always free to move because the hammer can move, subject only to the inertia of the hammer. This is no different from a normal jack pushing a knuckle.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#1982958 - 11/05/12 10:16 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: Robert Scott]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:

When I look at the Hickman action, the first thing I notice is that it works on the "over-centered" principle, like the latch on old suitcases or like locking your knee or elbow. There is a lot of strain involved with this sort of thing. Mathematically the leverage becomes infinite. In reality something just "gives". In this case I think the pinning would take a real beating and not last long.

I don't see how the forces on any pin in the Hickman action would be greater than the force on a normal hammer shank to flange center pin or the jack center pin. The force would be infinite if one end of the red jack were constrained from moving. But whenever that jack is in a straight line the upper end is always free to move because the hammer can move, subject only to the inertia of the hammer. This is no different from a normal jack pushing a knuckle.


Mr. Scott:

I see this intuitively; hopefully I can explain it logically.



Part 41 and part 13 form the "over-centering" hinge that concerns me. The centerpins, which are parts 10, 12 and 15, form an obtuse triangle. This triangle is illustrated by dashed lines. As centerpin 12 approaches the line described by centerpin 10 and 15, the more centerpin 12 must move to affect any increase in distance between centrpin 10 and 15. In other words the leverage changes. At the point of over-centering (when centerpins 10, 12 and 15 describe a straight line) the ratio of the movement of centerpin 12 to the increase in distance between centerpins 10 and 15 becomes infinite.

This is of course happening while the entire mechanism is being lifted and let-off occurs. In reality the bushing for centerpin 12 would simply "give" rather than be subjected to infinite forces. And it is this "giving" at let-off that raises a red flag in my mind. Conventional actions do not over-center and do not have this large change in leverage that can only be alleviated by something "giving".

It may be a non-issue, I don’t know. Thanks for showing the interest to ask. smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1982979 - 11/05/12 11:09 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: UnrightTooner]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1311
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
It may be a non-issue, I don’t know. Thanks for showing the interest to ask.


It is a non-issue. This is not a theoretical action but a real one that was in production but fell victim to the Great Depression. Technically it worked just fine and there are instruments with those actions still playing today. They were put into player-grands -- I think partly because those pianos received much higher usage wear and also people would turn up the tempo and then complain that conventional actions couldn't keep up. The Hickman can't be outplayed and stays almost permanently in regulation.

There are links on the page to other info about the Hickman.
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USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
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#1983017 - 11/05/12 12:32 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: UnrightTooner]
Robert Scott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 285
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:

When I look at the Hickman action, the first thing I notice is that it works on the "over-centered" principle, like the latch on old suitcases or like locking your knee or elbow. There is a lot of strain involved with this sort of thing. Mathematically the leverage becomes infinite. In reality something just "gives". In this case I think the pinning would take a real beating and not last long.

I don't see how the forces on any pin in the Hickman action would be greater than the force on a normal hammer shank to flange center pin or the jack center pin. The force would be infinite if one end of the red jack were constrained from moving. But whenever that jack is in a straight line the upper end is always free to move because the hammer can move, subject only to the inertia of the hammer. This is no different from a normal jack pushing a knuckle.


Mr. Scott:

I see this intuitively; hopefully I can explain it logically.



Part 41 and part 13 form the "over-centering" hinge that concerns me. The centerpins, which are parts 10, 12 and 15, form an obtuse triangle. This triangle is illustrated by dashed lines. As centerpin 12 approaches the line described by centerpin 10 and 15, the more centerpin 12 must move to affect any increase in distance between centrpin 10 and 15. In other words the leverage changes. At the point of over-centering (when centerpins 10, 12 and 15 describe a straight line) the ratio of the movement of centerpin 12 to the increase in distance between centerpins 10 and 15 becomes infinite.

This is of course happening while the entire mechanism is being lifted and let-off occurs. In reality the bushing for centerpin 12 would simply "give" rather than be subjected to infinite forces. And it is this "giving" at let-off that raises a red flag in my mind. Conventional actions do not over-center and do not have this large change in leverage that can only be alleviated by something "giving".

It may be a non-issue, I don’t know. Thanks for showing the interest to ask. smile



I agree with your analysis of the ratio of forces, but I do not agree with the conclusion that the centerpin bushing will be subjected to arbitrarily high forces and will have to give. If centerpins 10 and 15 were both constrained so that the distance between them could not change then a very small force exerted at centerpin 12 could indeed generate nearly infinite forces in all three centers. But the distance between centers 10 and 15 are not tightly constrained. They will always move long before the bushings in the centers gets crushed, as you seem to predict. About the only damaging condition I can see is if surface 40 presses on surface 42 after center 12 has gone as far to the left as it can go. But that is prevented from happening by the hammer rest. The only time 40 and 42 touch is when center 12 has moved well out of the infinite ratio zone.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#1983035 - 11/05/12 01:31 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2363
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I have never heard a reproducer with this action, only read about it over the years.

How difficult would it be to create this action with all composites, and what would the cost factor be? I wonder if it also superior for normal pianos?

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#1983050 - 11/05/12 01:56 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: Robert Scott]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
All:

When I look at the Hickman action, the first thing I notice is that it works on the "over-centered" principle, like the latch on old suitcases or like locking your knee or elbow. There is a lot of strain involved with this sort of thing. Mathematically the leverage becomes infinite. In reality something just "gives". In this case I think the pinning would take a real beating and not last long.

I don't see how the forces on any pin in the Hickman action would be greater than the force on a normal hammer shank to flange center pin or the jack center pin. The force would be infinite if one end of the red jack were constrained from moving. But whenever that jack is in a straight line the upper end is always free to move because the hammer can move, subject only to the inertia of the hammer. This is no different from a normal jack pushing a knuckle.


Mr. Scott:

I see this intuitively; hopefully I can explain it logically.



Part 41 and part 13 form the "over-centering" hinge that concerns me. The centerpins, which are parts 10, 12 and 15, form an obtuse triangle. This triangle is illustrated by dashed lines. As centerpin 12 approaches the line described by centerpin 10 and 15, the more centerpin 12 must move to affect any increase in distance between centrpin 10 and 15. In other words the leverage changes. At the point of over-centering (when centerpins 10, 12 and 15 describe a straight line) the ratio of the movement of centerpin 12 to the increase in distance between centerpins 10 and 15 becomes infinite.

This is of course happening while the entire mechanism is being lifted and let-off occurs. In reality the bushing for centerpin 12 would simply "give" rather than be subjected to infinite forces. And it is this "giving" at let-off that raises a red flag in my mind. Conventional actions do not over-center and do not have this large change in leverage that can only be alleviated by something "giving".

It may be a non-issue, I don’t know. Thanks for showing the interest to ask. smile



I agree with your analysis of the ratio of forces, but I do not agree with the conclusion that the centerpin bushing will be subjected to arbitrarily high forces and will have to give. If centerpins 10 and 15 were both constrained so that the distance between them could not change then a very small force exerted at centerpin 12 could indeed generate nearly infinite forces in all three centers. But the distance between centers 10 and 15 are not tightly constrained. They will always move long before the bushings in the centers gets crushed, as you seem to predict. About the only damaging condition I can see is if surface 40 presses on surface 42 after center 12 has gone as far to the left as it can go. But that is prevented from happening by the hammer rest. The only time 40 and 42 touch is when center 12 has moved well out of the infinite ratio zone.


Mr. Scott:

Thanks for the reply and thanks for confiming my analysis. It mostly is just a "red flag" in my thinking. If I had never heard of a piston engine, I might have the same concerns. Just because something is free to move does not mean it won't have inertial resistance. And what if something did get in the way? On a piston engine, valves can float. On a piano, hammers can block against the strings or catch on the backcheck. I could see the result being like the wind catching a screen door without a safety chain.

I do wonder how the action would actually behave. There may have been a reason that it did not catch on more than just not being known or accepted. There is something wonderful about the whole let-off/aftertouch feel. Like typing on a keyboard. Imagine a purely touch screen!
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1983076 - 11/05/12 03:09 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21674
Loc: Oakland
I suspect that the C-shaped piece was the weak point of that action.

If I were to try to replicate it, at least for a prototype, I would look into 3-D printing.
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Semipro Tech

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#1983341 - 11/06/12 08:17 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I keep waiting for the OP to nudge us back to the OT. In the mean time...

There is something I don't understand about this action. After the note is struck and the hammer is held by the backcheck, what ensures that the parts reset for the next blow after the key is released? The spring pushes the hammer butt up so the action CAN over-center back the other way for the next blow, but why would it? Why couldn't it find a place of equilibrium without the action resetting? Maybe in normal play momentum ensures the action resets. But if humidity causes a sluggish action...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1983897 - 11/07/12 07:26 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
i am going to sound like a very big noob, but what is OP and OT? also, on the hickman action, it seems that the "Elbow" or joing in the middle of the jack-like object could seize up and not function. smirk
_________________________
-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#1983908 - 11/07/12 08:57 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3613
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
i am going to sound like a very big noob, but what is OP and OT? also, on the hickman action, it seems that the "Elbow" or joing in the middle of the jack-like object could seize up and not function. smirk


OP = Original Post or Original Poster (which is you in this case)
OT = Off Topic.

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#1983919 - 11/07/12 09:36 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: ando]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Ok. Thnkyou very much!
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-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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#1984029 - 11/08/12 07:12 AM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4949
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: TecFlip
i am going to sound like a very big noob, but what is OP and OT? also, on the hickman action, it seems that the "Elbow" or joing in the middle of the jack-like object could seize up and not function. smirk


In this case I used OP to mean Original Poster and OT to mean Original Topic. Since you the OP, Jon, are continuing the discussion on the Hickman action, I do not feel like I am highjacking this Topic.

It would be hard to believe that the effort for a patent would be made if the escapement could hang-up. I guess I am questioning how I am looking at it.

I just thought of a similar device: a spring loaded door mechanism. You know the kind with a hinged arm. As long as the arm doesn't over-center, everything is fine. But if the elbow in the arm goes too far, you usually have to reach up and put it back like it should be for the door to close. Just opening the door all the way might not work.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1984231 - 11/08/12 03:31 PM Re: Homemade Piano Action [Re: TecFlip]
TecFlip Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 122
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Unright Tooner,

I see that there is a piece of felt in between the two parts of the jack like object. Its seem that when the felt gets compacted overtime, it will cause the the jack to, i guess you would call it, over flex, to were when pushing the key, the jack mechanism would not hinge, but stay locked. I really dont think that made much sense.

I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying about the door hinge. Is there any chance you can post a sketch?


Edited by TecFlip (11/08/12 03:31 PM)
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-Jon Lee
YouTube Channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/JleewSongs
Yamaha P-35b

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