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#1960363 - 09/17/12 07:26 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Johnkie Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 740
Loc: England
Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the first examples being "test driven" at the Hard Rock Cafes Phil wink
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#1960365 - 09/17/12 07:30 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
adamp88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/24/09
Posts: 186
Loc: Omaha, NE
Looking forward to hearing and seeing it in person!

Edit: I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting. I have to say I find the tone taken towards skeptics to be... unfortunate, and more than a bit disappointing.


Edited by adamp88 (09/17/12 09:21 PM)
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#1960413 - 09/17/12 09:18 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
....Dave B relax this is a good thing for all artists for ALL stringed instruments. i am a journeyman in the stone industry as well as a musician so by having both perspectives I've developed Stonetone.

Thank you.


I'm sure the violinists will be fighting to the front of the line to try their bows out on a 60 lb violin.

Robert, the idea is interesting enough for me to want to hear a piano with the granite bridge, if I come across one. As others here and elswhere have found with unique tunings (eg.), recorded samples don't often offer full justice for the listener to hear subtle and/or unique differences.

If it doesn't catch on in a big way, don't be alarmed...you can always find a market in California...just tell them no condors were used in the testing of it, the granite is fully organic, pesticide free... and throw in a bio feedback system with a free tie dyed toga and you'll be set.
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George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1960426 - 09/17/12 10:12 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
this 528 frequency and granite bridge combination has a healing effect that will have a more far-reaching outcome in terms of positive impact on humanity.
Don't the strings break when you tune more than a m3 up?

Kees


Edited by DoelKees (09/17/12 10:13 PM)

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#1960433 - 09/17/12 10:33 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21915
Loc: Oakland
And has that statement been approved by the Food and Drug Administration?
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Semipro Tech

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#1960448 - 09/17/12 11:22 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
A very interesting treble quality that is in direct contradiction to the 'woody' sound (feel) that Steinway claims is preferred by their surveyed pianist.

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#1960480 - 09/18/12 02:17 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: adamp88]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2089
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: adamp88
Looking forward to hearing and seeing it in person!

Edit: I didn't read the rest of the thread before posting. I have to say I find the tone taken towards skeptics to be... unfortunate, and more than a bit disappointing.

We are looking forward to your reading your reactions to the piano. How different does it sound from the YouTube videos mentioned earlier in this thread?

Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFmEByS9Z0w&feature=share&list=ULPFmEByS9Z0w

This is the most recent link since we installed the 20 additional dampers.
in comparison to a Fazoli 6'3 Grand..
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1960482 - 09/18/12 02:20 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Take care folks, I am done here and defiantly don't need your rhetoric.

Do you mean definitely?
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Piano Forte Supply
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#1960496 - 09/18/12 03:54 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
[irony on]
Quickly popping in from the garden, where I had some great fun making mudcakes with Johnkie.
[irony off]

Just for the record:

I am absolutely fascinated by the concept of alternative materials for piano components, and how they influence touch and tone. I am even more interested in a scientific exploration of these things. After all, this thread was titled "new engineering concepts on piano sound production". I was immediately drawn to it.

But chakras, healing frequencies, cellular experiences and the likes have nothing to do with scientific and engineering concepts. So I called them out! That's not rhetoric, it's making a much-needed distinction between science and non-science. I might not be a trained piano technician, but I'm a trained scientist.

Robert, if you claim to be talking in scientific and engineering terms, but post all sorts of non-science, then you must be prepared to be called out! Amongst scientists, such robust discussion is absolutely normal, because we are passionate about cutting through the chase and getting to the real science.

Back to the garden...
_________________________
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LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1960534 - 09/18/12 07:44 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Supply]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2198
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Supply
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Take care folks, I am done here and defiantly don't need your rhetoric.

Do you mean definitely?
Yea, I noticed that too, and was puzzled until I recalled some butchering my spell-checker has suggested in the past. Still ... there has been a little on the order of defiance in the OPs posts, so the mistake may have some tangential merit.

What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#1960536 - 09/18/12 07:47 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France


The playability ... locates more there in the beginning of the tone, for a piano anyway.

How the pianists plays with the attack quality is big part of the nuances. A long sustain is indeed a plus, but the name that strikes me in piano tone is articulation.
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#1960547 - 09/18/12 08:35 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Granite weighs a lot too but, as John mentioned which was one of my first thoughts, all we see are two pictures of pianos but no pictures of granite bridges...
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Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1960551 - 09/18/12 08:44 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2089
Loc: Suffolk, England
Kamin, are the two plots from the pianos in Robert Clair de Lune YouTube movie?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1960554 - 09/18/12 08:53 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
no sorry those are only one note, but we see the 2 canals of the stereo, I should have said what is it...

one need an isolated note (without sustain pedal) to plot it, not easy in a musical record
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#1960557 - 09/18/12 08:58 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: David Jenson]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: David Jenson

...What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Most likely because it isn't patent(pending) protected, or the masonry tool kits for the techs have not been compiled yet.

Even so, I suspect some pseudo engineer with a last name similar to the sound a dropped fork makes already has visions of the new and improved Mark 2 Glanite Bridge system in the works.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1960574 - 09/18/12 09:35 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2089
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Kamin
... one need an isolated note (without sustain pedal) to plot it, not easy in a musical record

Yes, of course. Your two plots make the point very well. BDB said something similar. Sound's like the ring of hammer and chisel to me!
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1960630 - 09/18/12 11:46 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3623
>You tube really isn't the proper place to have a true judgement and has no comparison rather than in person but for now this is all we have at the moment.

Robert,

Maybe, then your announcement and posting of the videos was a bit premature. These videos may pop up for the coming years if you search on your technology, and thus people may reject the actual sound of your invention based on these videos for years to come.

I recommend getting a really good audio engineer that uses dead flat response mics with the piano in a good acoustic environment. And reports very careful which mics and which environment was used so that people can put the recording in the right perspective.

Without a good recording, I guess you're not going to convince people even to come to hear the real thing.
_________________________

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#1961016 - 09/19/12 07:57 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2198
Loc: Maine
My guess is that the original poster has a real product, but the lack of pictures of the granite bridge, bits of new-age pseudo-science, and the ease with which sound files can be modified has produced some very legitimate questioning and the slight hint of a spoof.
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David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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#1961196 - 09/19/12 04:22 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: David Jenson]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3367
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
My guess is that the original poster has a real product, but the lack of pictures of the granite bridge, bits of new-age pseudo-science, and the ease with which sound files can be modified has produced some very legitimate questioning and the slight hint of a spoof.


It is real. I first saw this piano a few weeks ago, and again last night at the Chicago PTG meeting. In terms of what it sounds like, one could describe it as Phoenix bridge agraffes on steroids. The sustain is long, and the tone is clear. In my opinion, it improved the sound of the piano.

That being said, I have concerns:

Serviceability: the bridge pins are epoxied into the granite, so how does one replace the bridge pins when they inevitably deteriorate?

Workmanship quality: I thought the bridge pinning looked sloppy, partly due to the fact that the bridge pins are inserted vertically and then bent. Additionally, the added dampers looked sloppily done. These are things that would need improvement before they're put in a high-end piano. The bridge notching looked good, though.

Practicality: I don't see how the work required to do this is worth the effort (more on this later).

Longevity: Others at the meeting expressed concerns about how the granite and soundboard will interact as the soundboard changes over time.


As I see it, there are two reasons why the bridge changes the sound of the piano: it's a more efficient termination than wood is, and it has a lot more mass than wood.

As many on here know, there are some small-scale rebuilders/builders of pianos who use hardened termination points and/or ebony capped bridges. This makes the piano sound more clear.

There is also the mass issue. Granite has a lot more mass than wood. By using granite as a bridge, they are essentially mass-loading the soundboard, which raises its mechanical impedance, slows the transfer of energy from strings to soundboard, and thus lengthens sustain. The bass bridge, unlike the treble, is not solid granite; it is a wood bridge with a granite cap. Why? A full granite bass bridge would raise the impedance too much in that area of the soundboard and kill the tone. This is why some incorporate floating bridges or thin the board in the bass area.

With this in mind, I'm confident that one could produce the same effects with a traditional bridge (without all the fuss of granite) by mass loading the soundboard with brass weights or using auxiliary riblets, and using more efficient terminations (i.e. bridge agraffes, etc.). There is nothing magical about granite.

_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
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#1961225 - 09/19/12 05:37 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: David Jenson]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2464
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
Originally Posted By: Supply
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
Take care folks, I am done here and defiantly don't need your rhetoric.

Do you mean definitely?
Yea, I noticed that too, and was puzzled until I recalled some butchering my spell-checker has suggested in the past. Still ... there has been a little on the order of defiance in the OPs posts, so the mistake may have some tangential merit.

What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Mr. Di Santo is obviously ESL, hence the difficulty in communicating.

Yeah, no photos because someone might steal his revolutionary idea. Please...

Crummy-quality YouTube recordings, poorly set up, using Story & Clarks as test beds, citing mysticism for science, and then the insulting and petulance. yeah, this guy's going far...



Edited by OperaTenor (09/19/12 05:43 PM)
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#1961226 - 09/19/12 05:40 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Emmery]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2464
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: David Jenson

...What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Most likely because it isn't patent(pending) protected, or the masonry tool kits for the techs have not been compiled yet.

Even so, I suspect some pseudo engineer with a last name similar to the sound a dropped fork makes already has visions of the new and improved Mark 2 Glanite Bridge system in the works.


I didn't know a fork made a "Fandrich" sound when dropped!

laugh
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#1961394 - 09/20/12 03:19 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
B986,

Many thanks for your perspective. It made for interesting reading.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1961410 - 09/20/12 05:19 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Mark R.]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2089
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
B986,

Many thanks for your perspective. It made for interesting reading.


+1
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1961498 - 09/20/12 10:50 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: OperaTenor]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5325
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: David Jenson

...What I found curious was the lack of pictures of the stone bridge.


Most likely because it isn't patent(pending) protected, or the masonry tool kits for the techs have not been compiled yet.

Even so, I suspect some pseudo engineer with a last name similar to the sound a dropped fork makes already has visions of the new and improved Mark 2 Glanite Bridge system in the works.


I didn't know a fork made a "Fandrich" sound when dropped!

laugh

I think I've just been insulted--but I'm not sure why...?

ddf
_________________________
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Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#1961508 - 09/20/12 11:26 AM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Roger Ransom Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1288
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
Originally Posted By: Robert Di Santo
To the folks who are pros,technicians, masters in there own right etc.. have critical views on incorporating granite and other types a stone into the design of a piano is unorthodox but until you hear one in person as the PTG did and Thomas Zoells owner of the Pianoforte Chicago and Dr. Richard Bosworth who are all credible with a very articulate views agree this is a revolutionary concept that gives the artist a chance to explore new and interpretive vistas you will realize this as fact as well. During our presentation on September 18th Richard Bosworth will compare to a high end in comparison while hands on with the folks who attend. Science doesn't lie and we have the facts. When our prototype was tuned to 444, 4.7Hz higher than 440. After playing @ the 528 healing frequency this is what Richard Bosworth had to say:

My Impressions of The 528 Frequency

Initial reactions:

The sound and timbre were intoxicatingly alluring.
There was a feeling of well-being.
Serenity and calmness pervaded.
I felt very relaxed and restful.
There was less stress; a state of repose came over me.
My body and mind were more open to stimuli.
The experience put me in a trance.
There was also a mesmerizing effect.
The resulting effect was like having a power nap.
My whole being resonated a relaxed state of mind, both mentally and physically.
The endorphins were flowing throughout my body.
I was attracted to listening to the sound as well as producing it.
This instrument had an undeniably compelling quality.
After playing it, the little annoyances of life disappeared.
The feeling became ineffable and could not be put into words.
There was a lingering effect for at least a half hour afterwards.
My First Impressions On Playing These Intriguing Granite-Enhanced Pianos
By Richard Bosworth
General observations:

My first impressions were very subtle, yet powerful. It simply had a hypnotic effect. In this instance, the statement "music soothes the beast" fit exactly how I felt. After I played this instrument, my spirit was calm almost to the point of being reflective. It was as if I had been meditating and my soul was refreshed. A sense of universal, collective consciousness became a palpable moment for me.

I am beginning to realize that tuning to the 528 frequency is not only wonderful, but NECESSARY. Implementing this technique complemented by the granite bridges of a piano, has allowed me to experience a new realm of awareness. In fact, I earnestly seek out this quality and will not settle for anything less. The regular standard tunings along with the traditional wooden bridges are no longer satisfying; it is a rather irritating and frustrating scenario.

Anybody reading these thoughts here will probably think that I am a bit exaggerated in my perceptions. If so, I would encourage you to find out for yourself. Come, play this piano and see if what I am saying is true. Suspend your judgment for just a second and get ready for an extraordinary sonic adventure.

Allow me to leave you with this? Nothing can be more noble and worthwhile than to bring good will to one's fellow-man. I believe this 528 frequency and granite bridge combination has a healing effect that will have a more far-reaching outcome in terms of positive impact on humanity. To leave a legacy of this nature to posterity can only help to better the world in which we live. And the saga continues...


Now, this is indeed Gobbledegook! Give me a break!
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#1961547 - 09/20/12 12:38 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
No worries Del, the comment had nothing to do with you and I'm not sure why Opera Tenor made that connection. Dropped forks typically make a "png, ting,ding,tang,kang,pung" type of sound.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1961552 - 09/20/12 12:46 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Roger Ransom]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1725
Loc: Massachusetts
All the junk science, pseudoscience, and new age mysticism in support of the granite bridge bring my BS detectors to full alert. What's next in the world of pianos--pyramid power??? As it turns out, granite is not a very good conductor of sound--it is very lossy, which is one of the reasons it is used in high-precision machinery, where vibrations are a problem, and a material that damps them out is very desirable.

Hold a bar of steel or aluminum so they can vibrate freely, and when given a rap, they will ring nicely--think of a tuning fork. If you do the same with granite, it will simply produce a thunk. Actually, the density and modulus of granite are very close to that of aluminum. Granite is harder, but the only place in which hardness is of particular importance is at the string contact, and various bridge agraffes that use steel at the string interface have addressed this issue. Will the granite bridge sound different? Sure, it is heavier and stiffer than wood--so are lots of other materials. Yawn...

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#1961556 - 09/20/12 12:52 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Robert Di Santo]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21915
Loc: Oakland
My first thought is that if this is desirable, which I doubt, concrete should work just as well, and it could be molded, rather than carved, which would be cheaper.
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Semipro Tech

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#1961568 - 09/20/12 01:03 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Roy123]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2089
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Roy123
... granite is not a very good conductor of sound ...

Do bridges conduct sound or simply cause soundboards to move with the strings?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1961570 - 09/20/12 01:07 PM Re: New Engineering concepts on Piano Sound production [Re: Withindale]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1725
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Roy123
... granite is not a very good conductor of sound ...

Do bridges conduct sound or simply cause soundboards to move with the strings?


Good point--one might argue that bridges are short enough (distance from string to soundboard) that all one really needs is a material with adequate stiffness and low enough loss.

My comment about granite being not such a good conductor of sound was made only because of the claims that were made by the inventor.

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