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#1982118 - 11/03/12 10:14 AM Apassionata
arpan70 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 99
Loc: Mumbai, India
Hi,
I just wanted to know how you would count in the first movement of the piece. Do you take it as 4 beats and measure the quavers as triplets or do you take it as 12 beats as written?
_________________________
Beethoven: Piano Sonata No.23, Op.57 "Apassionata"
Brahms: Violin Sonata No.2, Op.100
Faure: Barcarolle No.5, Op.66
Grieg: Cello Sonata, Op.36

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#1982129 - 11/03/12 10:32 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
The time signature 12/8 doesn't imply 12 beats, it implies 4 beats, each beat comprised of three 1/8 notes. You should definitely think of it as 4 beats.

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#1982139 - 11/03/12 11:00 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Can't agree with debrucey ... sorry chaps.

Appassionata Sonata Opus 57 by Beethoven

12/8 indicates that the measures are divided into 12 triplets although essentially in common duple time.

Measures are made up of 3 of these 4-triplet units.

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#1982148 - 11/03/12 11:20 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: btb]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2312
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: btb
Can't agree with debrucey ... sorry chaps.

Appassionata Sonata Opus 57 by Beethoven

12/8 indicates that the measures are divided into 12 triplets although essentially in common duple time.

Measures are made up of 3 of these 4-triplet units.



Are you looking at the same piece? He beams it in 4 groups of 3 eighth notes. There are no triplets.

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#1982168 - 11/03/12 12:00 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Uh, btb... You know that 6/8 is two beats, right? So 12/8 is four beats.

OP: It is 4 beats smile debrucey is correct.

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#1982223 - 11/03/12 01:56 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
A triplet is three beats in the space of two. There are no triplets in Appassionata. They are compound beats, and there's 4 of them. Like OSK said, 6/8 time is two beats, not six.


Edited by debrucey (11/03/12 01:56 PM)

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#1982335 - 11/03/12 07:06 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2630
Loc: Netherlands
it's 4
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Couperin pièces, Ravel tombeau de C

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#1982356 - 11/03/12 07:47 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: dolce sfogato]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8858
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: dolce sfogato
it's 4

Not sure why there is any debate about this. When I first made acquaintance of this incredible piece at... what, 12 years old?... it was obviously felt in '4', nothing else.
_________________________
Jason

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#1982357 - 11/03/12 07:49 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19274
Loc: New York City
I do not claim to know the answer here but if understand things correctly Taub seems to disagree with what's been said so far by most posters. He says:

"Sketches indicate that Beethoven originally conceived of this movement in 4/4 time. As his conception evolved, he changed the meter to 12/8 time. Therefore, the pulse within each measure is 12 rather than 4."

I personally agree with those that say the "feel" is in 4.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/03/12 07:51 PM)

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#1982360 - 11/03/12 07:54 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2630
Loc: Netherlands
ok, from now on let's count to 12 instead of 4, haha
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Couperin pièces, Ravel tombeau de C

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#1982361 - 11/03/12 07:55 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Try conducting all 12 beats!! laugh

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#1982365 - 11/03/12 08:03 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2630
Loc: Netherlands
i did, and I decided that 4 is the best way, I don't bloody know who came up with idea to do otherwise, a modernist/retro cembalist no dought
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Couperin pièces, Ravel tombeau de C

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#1982369 - 11/03/12 08:06 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
The pulse is not 12! If you think it is you simply don't understand the notation of compound time.

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#1982377 - 11/03/12 08:25 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: debrucey]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19274
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: debrucey
The pulse is not 12! If you think it is you simply don't understand the notation of compound time.
I was only saying what Taub said. I do remember seeing a master class(don't remember who)where the teacher made a big thing out of why Beethoven chose 12/8 instead of 4/4. Unfortunately, I don't remember what he said about this.

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#1982384 - 11/03/12 09:01 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: Orange Soda King]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8858
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
Try conducting all 12 beats!! laugh

Yeah mate, that would most certainly wear me out. crazy

Why would an issue such as this come up? Elementary music theory, plain and simple.
_________________________
Jason

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#1982452 - 11/04/12 01:39 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Things are still foggy in the joking Netherlands ...
however ...

Please chaps ... count the number of notes in measure 14 Appassionata Allegro assai ...
24 notes in 4 double-beamed groups.
(The double beam indicates semi-quavers/16th notes)

By m17 Beethoven syncopates the off-beat rhythm,
and groups 4/12ths into a rising chordal motif, ending
on a grand held octave in the upper reaches of the keyboard.

Thanks pianoloverus for this

"Sketches indicate that Beethoven originally conceived of this movement in 4/4 time. As his conception evolved, he changed the meter to 12/8 time.
Therefore, the pulse within each measure is 12 rather than 4."
It’s nice to be right for a change ... please no rocks!!

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#1982483 - 11/04/12 05:06 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
There are 12 QUAVERS in each measure but the PULSE is in 4. This is a pretty fundamental distinction and Im really astounded that you dont understand it.

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#1982490 - 11/04/12 05:56 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
Easy, boys.

Let's just say it's 12 in 4. Beethoven seemed to think so, too, given how many times he writes out the "unspoken" stream of triplets in that movement.

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#1982494 - 11/04/12 06:26 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
No, there is simply no middle ground on this. The distinction is very clear. The bar has 12 quavers, but 4 beats. Either btb is trolling or he genuinely doesn't understand the difference between pulse and number of notes in a bar.


Edited by debrucey (11/04/12 06:30 AM)

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#1982508 - 11/04/12 07:41 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
sandalholme Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 766
Loc: Dorset, UK
btb: You use one of the most inappropriate bars to try to prove the pulse is in 12. Bar 14 is clearly 4 groups of semi-quavers, moreover, if anyone were to play it in 12, it would result in 12 two note units to each bar and I shudder to think what that would sound like, given that a pianist has to indicate to the listener what the basic pulse is. The whole movement in my edition (Tovey AB)is presented very clearly with a 4 to the bar pulse.

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#1982513 - 11/04/12 07:57 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
I think what btb means is that, while it's 4 to a bar, each beat has an "inner pulse" of a triplet. Like I said, that's not unreasonable considering Beethoven underscores that point again and again in the music.

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#1982516 - 11/04/12 08:08 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
m17 (ff) is made up of 6 groups of notes
which is another guise of the 12 per measure ...
similarly m20 and m22. (a la Waltz-time)

From m24 on page 2 of my Schirmer Edition
there is a steady tapping out of a 12 note rhythm
by left hand Eb’s. (4 groups of 3 notes)

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#1982519 - 11/04/12 08:17 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
Its wrong to say that each beat has an inner pulse of a triplet for two reasons. 1. a triplet is not a pulse, its a rhythm. 2. A triplet is a polyrhythm, i.e. 3 against 2. In appassionata there are no triplets, they are compound beats.

btb, describing bars from the score doesn't make you any less wrong. You are misunderstanding the difference between pulse and rhythm.


Edited by debrucey (11/04/12 08:20 AM)

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#1982526 - 11/04/12 08:53 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
You’re ducking and diving debrucey ...
all our persuasions (including Beethoven himself)
have obviously fallen on deaf ears ...
which makes you either an amateur in the keyboard field ...
or a poor loser.


Thanks Ian G for this

"I think what btb means is that, while it's 4 to a bar, each beat has an "inner pulse" of a triplet. Like I said, that's not unreasonable considering Beethoven underscores that point again and again in the music."

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#1982554 - 11/04/12 10:19 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
debrucey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 2606
Loc: Manchester, UK
I'm not ducking and diving, I'm making the same point over and over again, because you don't understand it.

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#1982561 - 11/04/12 10:48 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6114
Loc: St. Louis area
I'll settle this! On second thought, I'll just read and laugh. laugh ha laugh ha laugh
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#1982577 - 11/04/12 11:29 AM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
sandalholme Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 766
Loc: Dorset, UK
There are no triplets, just 4 groups of 3 quavers in each bar, making 12 quavers, which therefore gives the basic pulse of 4 in a bar. It isn't rocket science. Forget the theory: just feel the pulse - to play it at 12 beats to the bar it would need to be played very slowly indeed - and make no musical sense.

debrucey: I suggest we leave btb et al to their attempts to play the 1st movement of the Appassionata with a pulse of 12 to a bar. Hope they enjoy doing that.

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#1982592 - 11/04/12 12:17 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 168
Loc: Germany
smile

And just as I thought South Africa had enough controversy...I think the point here is that btb feels in music in 4 groups of 3, that's all. Yes, no literal triplets.

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#1982651 - 11/04/12 02:47 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: debrucey]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2728
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: debrucey
Its wrong to say that each beat has an inner pulse of a triplet for two reasons. 1. a triplet is not a pulse, its a rhythm. 2. A triplet is a polyrhythm, i.e. 3 against 2. In appassionata there are no triplets, they are compound beats.

btb, describing bars from the score doesn't make you any less wrong. You are misunderstanding the difference between pulse and rhythm.
A triplet is just that three notes in a rhythm that is normally two or duple meter (3 taking the same amount of time as 2). I understand what you're trying to say but there are lots of triplets where there aren't literally 3 notes against 2 in another voice and anyone having difficulty understanding that shouldn't be working on the Appasionata.

However, where you're absolutely right is when you say compound beats. C'mon folks, compound meter is something that's covered in the first semester of music theory. 12/8 is a compound meter (4 beats with an underlying rhythm of 3). We shouldn't need 3 pages to try to explain that. This is elementary music theory.


Edited by Steve Chandler (11/04/12 02:49 PM)

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#1982703 - 11/04/12 04:43 PM Re: Apassionata [Re: arpan70]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
btb, you are wrong.

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