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#1982962 - 11/05/12 10:31 AM Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Hello Everybody grin ,

I'm totally new to this forum which sounds full of passionate musicians.

I've been playing the piano for about 13 years now. I own an acoustic piano that I love : weinbach upright 115cm. unfortunately I have moved out of my Parent's house to a flat.

I'm honestly never been a big fan of DP, however if I still wanna play I'll have to buy one. I play mainly : Classical and rag time pieces. My needs are :

- A portable DP
- A good action
- Great Piano sounds (I don't think I'll really use others (see next point below)
- Using Midi or any USB link to a computer in order to use a sampler software and my DP to play various realistic sounds of real instruments such as cello, violin, sitar etc...
- Being able to record myself, in MP3 or Wav
- I don't really mind speakers, I'll play for myself with headphones mainly.


With my researches I've seen some models that look really interresting to me :

- Kawai MP6

- Kawai MP10

- Roland FP4F

- Roland FP7F


Maybe you can suggest me other models that might be good to try out.

In a shop I've tried the kawai ES7 that is supposed to have an improved version of the MP6 keyboard and also have a better sound. In term of sound I couldn't really feel any big difference... However I didn't like the action of the ES7 compared to the MP6. I couldn't play it properly especially with gentle touch for lighter parts in pp. Some notes were not played at all even if pressed. The MP6 had a better action for me, closer to my upright piano and I could play in pp easily. Seems also like the distance needed to play a note was shorter on the ES7 which i didn't like much.For the repetition, I didn't see any problem with the MP6.

I've tried also the Roland FP4F and liked it also quite a lot.

I didn't try the FP7F but if it's really supperior to the FP4F I'm willing to invest more money into this project.

What model would you recommend over another, and for what reason ?

Thanks a lot everyone for your help !! smile

All the best,



Edited by Grosskate (11/06/12 03:02 AM)

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#1982975 - 11/05/12 11:01 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Most people feel that the FP-7F action is far better than the FP-4F... but it is a much lighter feeling action than the Kawai. So if you really like the Kawai feel, you might not be so enamored of the better Roland.

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#1982984 - 11/05/12 11:17 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 763
Loc: Dorset, UK
If you try the FP-7F you may well find the 4F is not quite so impressive ............

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#1983019 - 11/05/12 12:41 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Yuri Pavlov Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 211
Loc: Moscow, Russia
Can be Kawai MP10?
I tried FP7F and was very disappointed as the keyboard and sound.
In MP10 uses a great keyboard, the most similar to the feelings piano
_________________________
DP: Korg Sp-250,Pianoteq 3.x, TruePianos 1.9x;
Grand piano: Blutner, Muhlbach, Yamaha;
Upright: Kalujanka;
English (with some problems)

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#1983071 - 11/05/12 02:45 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Yes, at the price of the FP-7F, it would also make sense to look at the MP10, especially since you like the MP6.

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#1983107 - 11/05/12 04:10 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Quote: "Seems also like the distance needed to play a note was shorter on the ES7 which i didn't like much..."

Is that because some of us , including myself , have hinted in that direction and perhaps you were biased by our opinion ?

I would really like to know, because if you perceived it as less key travel distance compared to the MP6 and you we're not influenced by any remarks , that would really mean something. Despite the fact that Kawai states the keybeds are physically the same. Not that it is a problem or flaw - some may even like less key travel (?) - but it would mean we are not crazy. I for myself am sure I have a similar feeling about MP6 vs ES7 as far as keybed (pp. control / travel) is concerned.

Request for next firmware: could Kawai take a careful look at the factory touch curve in correspondence to the RH II . Maybe it was directly taken from the RH models and simply doesn't work so well on the RH II un-adjusted. I know you can make your own curve, but nevertheless...as a convenience.

Other than that I join the advice of trying the MP10 . That may be really to your liking. Not that the FP7 is bad - it's a very nice DP too - more personal preference. IMHO FP4 and FP4 are worlds apart, so don't base any purchase on your FP4 experience alone. As always : try before...

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#1983179 - 11/05/12 07:20 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
btcomm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 274
Loc: California
I just tried out the Kawai ES7 just today and was surprised that the action, to me at least, was somewhat similar to the Roland FP7F -- a little hard bottoming out and less key travel distance but when trying out the Kawai MP10 and Kawai CA95 they didn't have the hard bottoming or the short key distance that the ES7 had.

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#1983285 - 11/06/12 02:56 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: JFP]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Hi all, thanks very much for your replies !!

Originally Posted By: JFP
Quote: "Seems also like the distance needed to play a note was shorter on the ES7 which i didn't like much..."

Is that because some of us , including myself , have hinted in that direction and perhaps you were biased by our opinion ?



Well to be honest I read something about it, but totally felt the same way when playing it !! I can't really describe it better. But it's weird, because I measured the distance between the unpressed note and the pressed note, and the distance is the same on the MP6 and the ES7, however I have the feeling when playing that the distance is somehow reduced, resulting in a discomfort when playing classical pieces. Maybe it's due to the third captor added to the ES7... I don't know... Also another point I didn't like is that when playing gently for more expression, some notes were not played at all even though i pressed them lightly. to put it differently it seems hard to control the keyboard when I want to play really gently. I asked a seller, he told me there were factory settings on each. I guess it's something you can change with different settings...

Well overall, playing the same classical pieces on both of the MP6 and the ES7, sound apart, I found that the MP6 had a better touch feeling, closer to my acoustic piano.



Anyhow you're probably correct about the MP10, I should maybe consider it, however on the paper I don't see much differences between the MP6 and the MP10 in term of functionality... Is the price difference really worth it ?

Thanks again ! thumb




Edited by Grosskate (11/06/12 03:03 AM)

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#1983329 - 11/06/12 07:39 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: Grosskate
on the paper I don't see much differences between the MP6 and the MP10 in term of functionality... Is the price difference really worth it ?

The MP6 and MP10 are entirely different. On paper, overall, the MP6 arguably has more functionality, depending on how you look at it. But the piano sound on the MP10 is notably better, and the action is entirely different, and many people find it far superior, though it is subjective. Definitely very different, though.

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#1983347 - 11/06/12 08:33 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: anotherscott]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
OK I'll try them both next time I go to a shop. However I've seen that on the MP10 i read a comment about it that say something about the midi function being not as good as the MP6 :

"Au niveau contrôle midi pour le MP10: 1 seule zone, dommage. Il va falloir trouver une solution hardware annexe pour remplacer les capacité du SGProX en terme de clavier maître. A savoir que le MP6 dispose, lui, de 4 zones midi."

I'll translate for you guys :

In term of Midi control for the MP10 : 1 zone only, too bad. I'll need to find a separate hardware solution to replace the possibilities of my SDProX as a master keyboard. However, the MP6 does have 4 midi zones though.


What are those midi zones exactly ? What does it mean ? I know I wanna use my DP as a controler for expander/sampler to generate good sounds of real instruments via my computer. I expect them to be better than the bank sounds in the MP6 - MP10 for the other sounds than the piano. Am i correct to think that ?


Thanks everyone !

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#1983355 - 11/06/12 09:17 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: Grosskate
OK I'll try them both next time I go to a shop. However I've seen that on the MP10 i read a comment about it that say something about the midi function being not as good as the MP6

Right, that's one of the reasons I said that "the MP6 arguably has more functionality." Also tonewheel organ, for another example. But the MP10 is, by most people's accounts, clearly the superior piano. The MP6 was designed to be more of an all-arounder.

Originally Posted By: Grosskate
What are those midi zones exactly ? What does it mean ? I know I wanna use my DP as a controler for expander/sampler to generate good sounds of real instruments via my computer.

The MP6 has much stronger MIDI controller functionality for that kind of use. The four zones means that you can control any combination of 4 internal and external sounds, split and layered across the 88 keys, each with their own volume controls, along with settings for velocity response, octave transpositions, controller assignments, etc. You can program custom presets that will instantly call up the combinations you want.

If you want a piano, the MP10 is the best to look at. If you want a MIDI controller, the MP6 is the best to look at. And since you're looking at Rolands as well, it's worth noting that, if you want MIDI controller functions, you would be better off looking at the RD-300NX and RD-700NX rather than the FP-4F and the FP-7F.

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#1983360 - 11/06/12 09:41 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: anotherscott]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Waw that was a crystal clear answer, thanks !

Humm this will be a hard choice then. I don't think that I'll need more than one sound to control anyway. What I need would be just 1 instrument sound emulated like a cello, or a violin, or a sitar or such. I don't think that i would need a combination of layers, although I'm novice in this and have never done it before. Basically I'm just looking for ways to play any other instrument with the best sound possible using my keyboard. That would be super handy for my recording. But I want something really simple my needs are small indeed : play other instruments with my keyboard =)

Before I was either borrowing a Cello from friends or other instruments, but I'm not a very good cello player although I can reproduce small melodies by ear. So being able to use my keyboard to reproduce the sounds of a chello or other instruments would be awesome !

From the sounds I've heard on the MP6, I'd say 90% of them will be useless to me and didn't convince me anyway. I don't think that it looks like the real instruments at all. I hope I can have better result through midi with a sampler on my computer. Anyone has already done that ?

I need to feel the touch of the MP10 if its different, but I already liked the MP6 very much.

I'll have a look also at the Roland you suggest me, but from everything i've read so far and people's comments the kawai seem to be a better choice over the Roland ones of the same price.

thanks again I appreciate all of your comments, they're all really helpful to me !!

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#1983373 - 11/06/12 10:15 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 763
Loc: Dorset, UK
Comments also useful to me, as I am also looking at the same DPs - which I why I commented on the FP-7F vs the 4F. Not able yet to try Kawai and am just about to be away for a month+, otherwise I might have tagged onto this thread re playing/recording sampled harpsichords. "Instructing" the software to switch from 8' to 8' + 4' etc. From the above it sounds as though the MP6 might have an edge here. Will raise another thread on this when I return .............

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#1983375 - 11/06/12 10:19 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
If you're only looking to trigger one sound at a time (regardless of whether its internal to the board or external in your computer), any of these keyboards will be fine. You don't need any fancy MIDI controller functions for that kind of basic MIDI use. So yeah, I would say its worth seeking out an MP10 to see for yourself how its piano sound and action compare to the MP6, to see if you think it's worth paying more for.

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#1983384 - 11/06/12 10:42 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: anotherscott]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Alright, I'll try it out thursday and let you know guys what I think about the MP10 compared to the MP6 in all the ways I can.

What I'm interested in are the piano sounds quality only to be honest. I'll compare them with a good audio headphone.

I guess the midi thingy is not software related, it's hardware related right ? so no improvement can be made for the MP10 right ?

You are correct I only need to trigger one sound at a time anyway smile

The seller told me that you can get problems when moving DP with mechanics like the RM3 because it can move the sensors or do something to the mechanic. That I can put it back on track myself, but that it can be annoying. Any experience with this ?

Also what can be damaged over time with a DP ?

Thanks

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#1983438 - 11/06/12 01:22 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2333
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Grosskate


Also what can be damaged over time with a DP ?

Thanks

Discussed in this thread.

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#1984022 - 11/08/12 06:21 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Thanks for the link I've read it all. It makes sense now.

I'll try them all this evening at the shop, and see if i really like the MP10 better than the MP6. There is about 600- 700€ of difference between those two. Some shops offer 5 warranty years, some others 3 years only. Do you reckon it would be better to take 5 years ?

Also I've ready that the MP6 and MP10 have a let off feeling, but that it was not possible to play "off the jack" (push slowly to escapement point, then push down fast to have the piano play softly). I guess it's because it only has 2 sensors.

Last question what would be the strong points of the Roland FP7F over one of the Kawai ? Overall from what I read the Kawai seem superior, however i'm sure the Roland have some strong points too.


Thanks everyone !

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#1984031 - 11/08/12 07:33 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3182
Originally Posted By: Grosskate
Last question what would be the strong points of the Roland FP7F over one of the Kawai ? Overall from what I read the Kawai seem superior, however i'm sure the Roland have some strong points too.

Strictly from a piano perspective (i.e. ignoring other sounds or non-piano related features), the big differences (as you might expect) are sound and action... and which is better is a matter of opinion.

In action, the Kawais are on the heavy feeling side, the FP-7F is on the light feeling side, and some players strongly prefer one or the other. The MP-10 has a notably soft landing, the FP-7F has a notably hard one, so that will also affect what you feel about the actions. In terms of specs on paper, the Roland action has a third sensor, so you can restrike a key without having to necessarily lift it high enough to silence it first. Some people make a big deal about this feature, but I think it's a smaller difference between the models than the other things I mentioned. It sounds more important on paper than I think it is in real life, and I'd choose whichever action I enjoyed playing more, regardless of whether or not it has this feature.

In sound, I happen to prefer the MP-10 over the MP-6 or the FP-7F. I'm not sure how I'd compare the Roland and the MP6, though. Regardless, whatever I preferred, I'm sure you could find people here who preferred the other, and I'm sure you can find people who prefer the Roland sound over the MP10 as well, this is another area that is subjective. The fact that Roland uses modeling for note decay means there is no looping as the sound fades, so that may be seen as an advantage, but again, I see it as more of an "on paper" advantage. Not that you can't hear the difference if you listen for it (just as you can experience the advantage of the third sensor if you play specifically in a way to reveal it), but again, I don't think it makes itself that obvious in most playing, to the point where it should be a major factor. That is, again, I'd choose the piano that simply sounds better to you when you play it, rather than choosing based on whether one can discern audible loops. Now, it is possible that the lack of audible loops may indeed contribute to making something sound better to you, that's fine... but the point is that you should still be choosing with your ears rather than from a spec sheet. But when you try them out, you should make a point of playing a variety of passages... slow and fast, quiet and loud, over different ranges of the keyboard... and this will tell you what sounds better to you, regardless of what technologies the pianos may have or lack.

Other than sound and action, I think it's also worth pointing out that the FP-7F has built in speakers, and besides their convenience, they can also convey a sense of vibration to your fingers while you play, which can make the experience feel more like that of a real piano as well. Another thing which may be a factor is that the Roland weighs about 20 lbs less then the MP10.

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#1984100 - 11/08/12 10:24 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Thanks anotherscott,

your reply is super precise and crytal clear. It all makes sense, and will help me in few hours to try them out and find the one that suits me the best !

I think from my acoustic Weinbach upright piano that I'll tend to prefer much heavier touch as I've been used to it.

For the third sensor, I tried the ES7 that I absolutely didn't like, although it has a Third sensor added, playing gently parts was hard, some played notes were not played in the end... Which I've found really weird. I had no problem with the MP6 though.

I'll listen to the decay in the sound and let you know guys what i think of both of the sounds. In real I know that I prefer europe like sound in acoustic piano, I think most asiatic pianos have a too bright and metalic sound that doesn't suit classical style much. So I'll see. But my first concern is the action of the piano, then the piano sounds. The other sounds, i don't mind at all.

You're right about the speaker, although I'll use the headphone only the vibration generated by the speakers would make it more realistic like on my acoustic piano... I didnt think of this at first. I guess that was a really good thing to ask on this forum, because I wouldn't have thought of testing this or thinking of that myself.

I'll write my comments for you guys tomorrow I think.

Again, I really appreciate your help, so thanks for your time !! This forum is great ! smile

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#1984244 - 11/08/12 04:17 PM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Quote: For the third sensor, I tried the ES7 that I absolutely didn't like, although it has a Third sensor added, playing gently parts was hard, some played notes were not played in the end... Which I've found really weird. I had no problem with the MP6 though.

Interesting, similar feeling here. But I'll get whacked for posting this...duck !

(Although I do like the RH II in general - it's only that there is a difference in control when playing soft / delicate passages, like you seem to experience. Adjusting the touch curve will help to a certain extend by the way - perhaps the touch curve was set in the wrong way !)


Edited by JFP (11/08/12 04:19 PM)

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#1984478 - 11/09/12 04:03 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Hello everyone, smile

Yes JFP, maybe there was a bad setup somehow with the touch curve, but even mechanically speaking, playing delicate passage was somehow difficult, and from what I remember the "let off" feeling so second step of pressing the key was for something in this. first step to the let off was ok and didn't require much power, but then the second part required more power. Which is probably why I ended up with notes not played at all because they were probably somehow not pressed enough to play the note correctly. So MY guess about that wrong feeling on this ES7 when playing gently comes from this I think and why I really didn't like it.


OK back to the subject. I tried yesterday only 3 DP I have in mind to buy : MP6, MP10, and FP7F

MP10 :

Touch is really nice and slightly softer than the MP6 somehow. It looks like the touch of a grand piano, and the let off is really nice. I could play different piano pieces well, even in the soft parts :-) everything was easy, repetitions were also good and not a problem. Soft bottoming is very good even at small volumes in your headphone.

The sound was good, I oinly tried the piano sounds and didn't tweak anything really, I could probably have got a better sound by tweaking but well... Piano sounds are good, and sound really rich, maybe even too much i'd say. on my headphone on high volume I could hear distortion, so I had to turn the volume down (I don't know if that was because of the headphone quality or not, probably...I reckon I should have brought MY AKG headphone, anyway...) The strong point are the low notes of the piano, the sound is powerful, very clear, and the decay is good. however the bad point that really ticked me is the high notes that sound really fake, the sound seems kind of very digital, and not much realistic. Well playing a melody with my right hand while playing arpeggios on my left one made me realize that. I'm not talking about the very very high ones, but to me if you go after the second half of the keyboard the notes sound seem more "fake" and not rich enough like the bass notes are.

setting up the piano is not so intuitive to be honest, and I had to ask a seller in order to just change the sounds from Grand Piano, to Mellow for example. I guess it requires a bit of time to be able to work with it correctly.

The DP is quite massive to be honest, and would not be SO portable especially if one wants to often move it. So that's a point to think about, especially if you have to also move the amplification system, because again this model along with the mp6 has no speakers. Bad point being you have NO vibration coming from the speakers to your hands which really lacks to me. Maybe in the future they could create pianos that would "vibrate" somehow, like the acoustic piano do when you play them.

Overall i think it's a very good piano, with a very nice touch, that for me is it's strong point. The sound is a little bit better than the MP6 that I'm gonna discuss right after, it has a more realistic tone, but it's not a big gap to me.



MP6 :

The touch is the closest to my upright acoustic piano sound. Quite firm, really nice touch. I could play any classical piece with ease even in the delicate passages. The mechanic is different from the MP10 the action is firmer, different, but still really good to me !!

Sound is good, like the MP10 but only slightly less realistic I'd say. Honestly in a blind test I don't think that a lot of people would see the difference. You can tweak the sound easily, but i didn't do it, I didn't want to alter the sound by tweaking too much.

Settings are way easier to adjust on this one than on the MP10, you have access to everything right away which is a good point.

The MP6 is very "portable" it's not massive at all which is a strong point in my case, because I think that I'll need to move

Overall is seems to be the best choice for me, more portable, sounds quality very close to the MP10 (for what i could try, but in a shop it's hard to have an accurate sound test.



FP7F :

Touch was the bad point to me. It's not firm enough under the fingers. It seems too light to me. The let off feeling is good however, and it's still enjoyable to play with this type of mechanics. The VERY BAD point to me that makes i cannot buy it, is the very hard bottoming. It makes way too much noise and kills the pleasure of the nice touch this DP has. It's night and day when you compare to the MP6 or MP10 in term of bottoming sound. Action being my first priority I cannot consider this piano in my top list anymore.

Sound is good although really different, it seems much simpler than the ones of the Kawai, and that is what makes it "natural". Hard to describe it with words, and English is not my mother-tong. Kawai have a more bright sound compared to the Roland one. It seems it has less "harmonics" in the sound in general, that's how I would describe it compared to the kawai sound that seem a bit "too much". Simplicity is sometimes good and I liked the piano sounds well !

Tweaking seems easy to access, but kinda harder to quickly tweak (i didn't touch it much anyway)

the FP7F seems quite light and very compact which would have been a good point.

Overall quality and sound are really good, touch is also nice, but I can't go with a keyboard that makes so much noise .



In the end, I THINK I'll go for the MP6 for different reasons :

1) It's lighter and more portable

2) Action is really good and what I was looking for, really close to my Upright Weinbach acoustic piano.

3) Sounds are really good, close to the MP10 and quickly editable

4) 30% Cheaper than the MP10

5) It has more feature than the MP10 although i don't think that I'll really use them.



What do you guys think ? I was not in the best place for a perfect test of the sound and action. All the DP were at the opposite side of the room, and not close to each other and the ambiant noise didn't help at all, but well. Better than nothing.

Thanks everyone again to share your experience and thoughts with me !

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#1984483 - 11/09/12 04:23 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
I think the Mp6 is a great allround board that you can hardly go wrong with. Of course I'm a bit biased, because I owned one - after a long search for a good portable. But that was more than a year ago and now there's more choice.

If your really want to be sure about your decision, I would go back to the shop that seems to carry all boards (nice!) and compare the MP6 and ES7 next to each other once more : after doing a factory reset ! Than you're sure no settings have been messed up than influence your judgement. I had this once, where all effects we're turned to 10. Sounded like crap, but after a factory reset so much better ! A messed up touch curve can also do a lot of harm. Also try the mellow AP on the ES7 and see if that is more to your liking. Try both headphones and speakers.

IMHO the AP grand on the ES is better than the preset on the MP6 , due to better processing and resonance effects. Also repetition is noticeably better - keybed is easier to play in general. On the other hands, I am too still coming to terms with the different touch of the RH II , with respect to key travel and control over soft passages. I mean dynamic response of the keys when playing soft - to me it seems more jumpy and harder to control in those regions than the RH on the MP6. When you play the keys a bit harder (mf and up) , the dynamic response of the keys are more gradual and just fine. It's hard to explain in words unfortunately. Still the ES has a lot to offer for playing acoustical / classical piano with respect to the MP6. There's always a trade-off, but I should try it once more...worth the effort !

Good luck, J

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#1984484 - 11/09/12 04:24 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
w i l l Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 06/22/12
Posts: 10
Originally Posted By: JFP
Quote: For the third sensor, I tried the ES7 that I absolutely didn't like, although it has a Third sensor added, playing gently parts was hard, some played notes were not played in the end... Which I've found really weird. I had no problem with the MP6 though.

Interesting, similar feeling here. But I'll get whacked for posting this...duck !

(Although I do like the RH II in general - it's only that there is a difference in control when playing soft / delicate passages, like you seem to experience. Adjusting the touch curve will help to a certain extend by the way - perhaps the touch curve was set in the wrong way !)

Originally Posted By: Grosskate
Hello everyone, smile

Yes JFP, maybe there was a bad setup somehow with the touch curve, but even mechanically speaking, playing delicate passage was somehow difficult, and from what I remember the "let off" feeling so second step of pressing the key was for something in this. first step to the let off was ok and didn't require much power, but then the second part required more power. Which is probably why I ended up with notes not played at all because they were probably somehow not pressed enough to play the note correctly. So MY guess about that wrong feeling on this ES7 when playing gently comes from this I think and why I really didn't like it.

So this is interesting... It seems that the benefits of a third sensor in the RHII may have been negated somewhat by less than ideal placement.?

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#1984490 - 11/09/12 05:01 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Although different people have a similar experience, we shouldn't jump to conclusions to quickly. I didn't make enough user touch curve efforts to be 100% sure the different feeling can't be compensate by a touch response curve that fits better. Or there may even be a firmware update in the future that includes some small adjustments in the way the keyed responds. All I can say is that it's different than the RH and that the difference is most noticeable (to me ) when trying to play soft and delicate . On the other hand there is the big advantage of a lighter, faster and easier to play keybed. As said, there always seem to be a trade off, just pick the features you like to most. I guess GF has it all, but is out of my budget range and not really 'portable'

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#1984493 - 11/09/12 05:40 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: JFP]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Originally Posted By: JFP
I think the Mp6 is a great allround board that you can hardly go wrong with. Of course I'm a bit biased, because I owned one - after a long search for a good portable. But that was more than a year ago and now there's more choice.


Yes I think it's the idea I have ! I agree it came out a while ago but still seems to be the best choice to me at the moment


Originally Posted By: JFP

If your really want to be sure about your decision, I would go back to the shop that seems to carry all boards (nice!) and compare the MP6 and ES7 next to each other once more : after doing a factory reset ! Than you're sure no settings have been messed up than influence your judgement. I had this once, where all effects we're turned to 10. Sounded like crap, but after a factory reset so much better ! A messed up touch curve can also do a lot of harm. Also try the mellow AP on the ES7 and see if that is more to your liking. Try both headphones and speakers.


Arrrrg, this shop is quite far from my work and place, but yes they do have MANY digital and acoustic pianos which is really nice indeed. I didn't want to go back there, but I'll have last try on all those pianos with my Headphone and will ask the seller to perform a reset factory, just to ensure my first impression about the ES7 was right. But apart from the sound aspect when playing gently, it's the mechanical aspect I didn't quite like, so I think it will not have anything to deal with the factory reset. But anyway, it's worth trying again you're probably right.

Originally Posted By: JFP

IMHO the AP grand on the ES is better than the preset on the MP6 , due to better processing and resonance effects. Also repetition is noticeably better - keybed is easier to play in general. On the other hands, I am too still coming to terms with the different touch of the RH II , with respect to key travel and control over soft passages. I mean dynamic response of the keys when playing soft - to me it seems more jumpy and harder to control in those regions than the RH on the MP6. When you play the keys a bit harder (mf and up) , the dynamic response of the keys are more gradual and just fine. It's hard to explain in words unfortunately. Still the ES has a lot to offer for playing acoustical / classical piano with respect to the MP6. There's always a trade-off, but I should try it once more...worth the effort !


Yes everyone told me the ES7 would have better improvement of both sounds, AND keybed action and all. I, at the moment can not agree with this from my point of view and tests.





Edited by Grosskate (11/09/12 05:42 AM)

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#1985599 - 11/12/12 04:21 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Hello everyone !


I went to test the DP again. I asked the seller to factory reset the DP so I could test the digital piano on a clean base.


I tried again the ES7 with factory reset, but still couldn't play it correctly. I really don't like its action. The repetitions are indeed better and easier on this keyboard, the Mechanic itself it not something that suits me. From what I can say, let's say you can divide the action of the keys in 2 parts. First part doesn't require much pression or strengh to be pressed down, however the second part require more pressure. That is precisely what I find wrong on this action. This configurations disturbs me when playing gently because, when I play gently my goal is to press down the key as soflty as possible to play in pp (piano-piano). The result is that It's impossible to control this keyboard properly. Some notes will be pressed but not to the end and will by result produce NO sound.

I don't know if I've been so clear about the way I felt, but this mechanic issue prevents me from considering this Kawai ES7. I much prefer the MP6 or the MP10 touch wich for me don't have this problem.

Let's get back to the MP10 and MP6

I played again, and again the same piano pieces, both touch are different, I think the MP10 has a slightly better one, it's surface it more enjoyable to touch, and the action seems more articulate. But to me it's no big deal the MP6 one is really quiet and also very good.

About the sound, I still find the MP10 a little bit better, especially in the high notes. But that is the weak point of both of the MP10 and MP6. it's like the low notes are very rich and detailed, but the high notes seem unnatural and very electronic. You realize this when you play melodies with your right hand while playing arpeggios with the left one.

Anyway I think that I'll go with the MP6. I'll record my songs using MIDI file, and will probably use a very good sample to get a better sound in the end. I've seen Kontact from Native instruments that seems to be a good alternative.


Any other alternative or advice ?

thanks



Edited by Grosskate (11/12/12 04:22 AM)

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#1985603 - 11/12/12 04:41 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
Originally Posted By: Grosskate
... the Mechanic itself it not something that suits me. From what I can say, let's say you can divide the action of the keys in 2 parts. First part doesn't require much pression or strengh to be pressed down, however the second part require more pressure. That is precisely what I find wrong on this action. This configurations disturbs me when playing gently because, when I play gently my goal is to press down the key as soflty as possible to play in pp (piano-piano). The result is that It's impossible to control this keyboard properly. Some notes will be pressed but not to the end and will by result produce NO sound.


[Attention: Kawai James]

Sounds to me like it might be the "Let-off" (or, escapement) feature (that you are describing as the Mechanic) that is causing this issue?

I have never heard of the let-off giving too much resistance to the fingers when attempting to play very softly, although maybe this could be a potential problem with the new ES7?

I do not encounter too much resistance in the escapement feature with either the Kawai CA95, or, Roland V-Piano.

Perhaps someone else could test an ES7 to see if this is the case?

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#1985610 - 11/12/12 04:58 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: pv88]
Grosskate Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Paris - FRANCE
Originally Posted By: pv88


[Attention: Kawai James]

Sounds to me like it might be the "Let-off" (or, escapement) feature (that you are describing as the Mechanic) that is causing this issue?

I have never heard of the let-off giving too much resistance to the fingers when attempting to play very softly, although maybe this could be a potential problem with the new ES7?

I do not encounter too much resistance in the escapement feature with either the Kawai CA95, or, Roland V-Piano.

Perhaps someone else could test an ES7 to see if this is the case?




Well it's hard to describe, but playing gently was my problem on this ES7. It's hard to describe precisely to be honest but something felt wrong, and I didn't encounter that issue with the MP10 of the MP6 although they both have a different action. But again in pure repetition, the ES7 is superior, and it's easier to do quick repetitions. But that didn't bother me playing technical classic pieces so well...

I've found the sound of the ES7 however (only the piano ones) a bit better than the MP6, and probably closer to those of the MP10. But the action is more important to me than the sound itself. Also it's true that the speakers makes the keyboard vibrate and add realism when playing.

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#1985612 - 11/12/12 05:04 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9015
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Grosskate, as pv88 notes, this 'secondary resistance' is the let-off simulation.

The feeling should be the same as the MP6 (both the RH and RHII actions are mechanically identical, but for the different sensor types), however there may be some minor variance from one model to the next.

The superior sound quality of the ES7 (versus the MP6) is probably attributable to the new tone generator and higher resolution reverbs/effects etc.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1985613 - 11/12/12 05:21 AM Re: Kawai MP6 vs MP10 vs Roland FP4F vs Roland FP7F [Re: Grosskate]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2625
@Grosskate,

I have played quite a few digital pianos and this is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention the "let-off" (or, escapement simulation feature) offering too much resistance to the fingers in "pp" playing.

I have a Kawai CA95 and its let-off is apparently very subtle so that you hardly notice it, most of the time. I have not seen where it does not allow one to play as softly as you would like, with some notes not sounding.

If it does continue to present an issue for you, then I would just go with your next best choice...

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