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#1982838 - 11/05/12 01:45 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Bogs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/10
Posts: 133
I confirm the above holds for Kawai CA63 as well. On one hand it's surprising that one mentioned this 'issue' as far back as 2008 and yet the problem still occurs [while some DPs didn't have this problem in the first place], but on the other hand this is what you get if you don't use physical modeling - some acoustic behaviors do not derive automatically and have to be programmed in. This is for me a non-issue, I don't expect sampled DP to be 'perfect'.
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old Gaveau upright & Kawai CA63; previously Korg SP250

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#1982843 - 11/05/12 02:12 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Bogs
but on the other hand this is what you get if you don't use physical modeling - some acoustic behaviors do not derive automatically and have to be programmed in..


Lol. Classic type of assumption people make who have no experience modeling things on computers. One doesn't just describe the piano to the computer and automatically get all the emergent subtle properties of an acoustic piano. Inasmuch as modeled pianos more accurately mimic this type of behavior, I'm sure it was carefully thought out and purposely added. Modeling is a painstaking procedure that produces gibberish the first zillion times you try it and you have to go back and tweak it ad nauseum, carefully adding any important features until it kind-of sort-of mimics the desired behavior.

The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers who haven't put the work into getting ostensibly unimportant details like this right, not because the pure modeled approach is a panacea for all piano behavior or "automatically" gets piano behavior right.

Pardon the apparent huff. It's a bit of a peeve of mine when people ascribe sci-fi abilities to computers and programs that exist in the real world, so I always speak up when I can.


Edited by gvfarns (11/05/12 02:17 AM)

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#1982882 - 11/05/12 07:14 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Clumsy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/12
Posts: 60
Loc: Bangkok, Thailand
One thing I notice in the acoustic piano: from the note F5 onwards the notes are sustained (non-dampened), which means you don't have to step on the pedal to sustain the notes.

Only a few DP's I tested have this feature, like the Kawai CN24, KCP80, KDP80. None of the Yamahas I tried - YDP 141, 161, 181, P105, CLP440 - have this feature. Neither does the Casio PX-735.

Let's have your input on various other models, too.
_________________________
- Anirut J.
Out-of-tune mid 70's acoustic Bentley upright and Casio Celviano AP-450

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#1982892 - 11/05/12 07:56 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: North Carolina
That's odd. I've seen the opposite in digitals: high notes not damped.

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#1982904 - 11/05/12 08:34 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: MacMacMac]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2386
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
That's odd. I've seen the opposite in digitals: high notes not damped.

I'm surprised too as I've not yet come across one that doesn't. This includes various Casio's, Yamaha's, Roland's and Kawai's. We get quite a few newbie posts on here complaining about this 'defect'.

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#1982912 - 11/05/12 08:48 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: gvfarns]
Bogs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/10
Posts: 133
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Lol. Classic type of assumption people make who have no experience modeling things on computers.

Haha! My dissertation is about piano modeling, so yeah... But anyway, what I meant was the fact than once you create the model, the interactions between various elements of the model become more natural. Like you model a vibrating string, then you can easily add 2 or 3 strings per note (and thus, say, simulate the 'soft' pedal). Or if you model the damping system, then it doesn't matter if it's key off or partial pedaling, it's the same system underneath. With the sampled piano, you can't have a pianoteq-like option with "All keys on the piano have 3 strings", or you need special samples for the soft-pedal [or anyway, do a 'cheap' version like take out the high frequency of the samples, etc].
Creating the model, that's a different story and of course you have to think where you want to cut corners and where you want the model to be as close to reality as possible.

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers [...]
I'm sorry, but that's just plain rude! If a piano graduate doesn't play Rach3, then that doesn't make him lazy. And I'm sure that in no matter what profession you are, laziness is not tolerated by the management!
I don't know if with sampling you can do all the things you can with modelling, but what I'm sure of is that for these 'extra-special-cases' it takes a lot more effort to do it in the case of sampling (and thus this could be the reason why money is not invested into this, not the 'lazy programmers').
_________________________
old Gaveau upright & Kawai CA63; previously Korg SP250

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#1982926 - 11/05/12 09:09 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3293
Originally Posted By: Bogs
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers [...]
...
I don't know if with sampling you can do all the things you can with modelling, but what I'm sure of is that for these 'extra-special-cases' it takes a lot more effort to do it in the case of sampling

It would not be practical to try to do with sampling everything that can be done with modeling. You can model things like hammer wear, damper wear, infinite lid positions, infinite velocities (or at least 127 with standard MIDI), etc. Whether these things are all necessary/desirable, or make up for other areas in which modeling currently may fall short, is a different discussion.

As for the phenomenon being discussed here, regardless of whether the tone generation were based on sampling or modeling, I think it comes down to a programming issue, of how to interpret the interplay between key up, key down, pedal up, and pedal down.

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#1982991 - 11/05/12 11:24 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Bogs
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The sampled pianos (hardware and software) may come up short, but it's just because they have lazy or understaffed programmers [...]
I'm sorry, but that's just plain rude! If a piano graduate doesn't play Rach3, then that doesn't make him lazy. And I'm sure that in no matter what profession you are, laziness is not tolerated by the management!

I don't know if with sampling you can do all the things you can with modelling, but what I'm sure of is that for these 'extra-special-cases' it takes a lot more effort to do it in the case of sampling (and thus this could be the reason why money is not invested into this, not the 'lazy programmers').


Meh. From the perspective of the consumer, lazy programmers, incompetence at any level, and underfunding (justified or not) are observationally equivalent. I don't really care which is the case (and I doubt that you know). I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt considering the large numbers of years that pass with little progress in DP technology and the fact that some pianos have the desired features while other do not...for years and years. Attributing it to a technical difficulty of sampled technology seems odd, considering the fact that some sampled pianos do behave correctly. This is one of many behaviors that gets discussed here that some or most digitals do not do correctly and doesn't seem to get fixed.

Look, I'm sympathetic with people whose job is hard and/or unappreciated, but my experience with digital piano technology leads me to expect better than what we observe. That's the general sense of this whole thread, by the way (ancient, though it may be).


Edited by gvfarns (11/05/12 11:27 AM)

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#1983041 - 11/05/12 01:39 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Bogs]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
@bogs, would be really interested in your diss. Could you send me by PM ? What are the models you use for the string, etc ?? I am doing a lot of structural dynamic but in a different business.

ap55

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#1983304 - 11/06/12 04:50 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5279
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Thanks for the replies, keep 'em comin'!

Yeah, I've never played a Roland or Kawai that got this right.


My V-Piano does this perfectly, though of course it's modeling technology. A sterner test would be to silently hold down different notes (i.e. not the ones you've just struck and then released) while keeping the pedal down, then releasing the pedal to see if the sympathetic vibration from the sounding strings have transmitted to the ones you 'didn't' play, but are now undamped (because you're holding them down). It works on the V-Piano, just as on a real piano, but I suspect you won't get this on sampled DPs.

Incidentally, this latter device of sympathetic string vibration causing an eerily soft sound from undamped strings is exploited by Schumann in Carnaval, Op.9 (the 7th chord at the end of 'Paganini', to lead back into the reprise of Valse allemande).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1983472 - 11/06/12 03:30 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 453
Loc: Europe
My new Roland HP-505 passed the test.
And it has the sympathic (here called "string-") resonance feature.
_________________________
learning Piano on my Roland HP-505
before playing Drums in adults bluesband on handpicked set; before crashing E-Guitar in kids garage band; raised on home entertainment Organ and Keyboard models Eminent Solina P240, Farfisa Maharani 259R, Technics KN800, and on Mouth Organ, Recorder and Accordion

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#1983514 - 11/06/12 05:05 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
LMKawai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 180
Loc: Madrid, Spain
OMG! Im so disappointed now! My KAWAI CS6 failed the test frown Yamaha P155 passed it though!!!
_________________________
YAMAHA GB1
Cherny upright (Russian, 1990)
Kawai ES7
Korg microPiano

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#1983548 - 11/06/12 06:56 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
Depress the sustain pedal and strike a note or chord. Lift off the keys but hold the sustain pedal. The notes will sustain, of course, and all digital pianos get this right. Now, while still depressing the sustain pedal, depress the same keys but slowly enough so that no new notes are sounded. While holding down the notes, take your foot off the sustain pedal.

On a real piano the notes still sustain, minus the sympathetic resonance of the other strings which are now dampened. But on most digital pianos, the notes are cut off as soon as you lift off the sustain pedal. It amazes and disappoints me that even some of the most expensive and elaborate flagship digital pianos fail this simple mechanism.


The CA95 fails the test (above) when using both pedals:

The sustain, or, the middle one.

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#1983551 - 11/06/12 07:14 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2635
Originally Posted By: jscomposer
I've spoken to techs at Kawai and Yamaha about this, and while they're equally surprised, they don't seem to care much.


@jscomposer,

I am now taking this issue directly to Kawai (as you have done) to see as to what they have to say about the sustain pedal resonance issue.

Not likely that much will be done, unless there is a way the pedal and resonance behaviors can be fixed within a software update.

If not fixable, current owners may have no recourse.

Will have to wait until a new model arrives.

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#1983563 - 11/06/12 08:36 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Geof175]
torhu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 183
Originally Posted By: Geof175
Doesn't work on Roland RD700GX.

It actually works on the RD-700NX, although only for the Supernatural AP and EP tones.

It also works when I use it to control Galaxy Vintage D. Cool.

I actually do use this feature, mostly when I forgot that I need the bass note to sustain after I release the pedal laugh
_________________________
Roland RD-700NX // Galaxy Vintage D

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#1983804 - 11/07/12 03:11 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: pv88]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
CA51 with Galaxy Vintage D and Vienna Grand (Bösendorfer) have it, but itself not.

For me a typical case for a minor SW-Update (CAx5).

Waiting for a model change would be a non-solution, being the CAx5 a brand-new model (2-3 Ys).

Perhaps something to consider for .v2 model refresh, but before You can get it, it is probably another 6 months when not underway already.

Manufacturers must have it difficult nowadays with all of the pressure from us forum-folks with our public scrutiny...

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#1983818 - 11/07/12 04:06 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: Temperament]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Wouldn't be the physical modeling really the solution. What can you expect from companies that are not really eager to can get proud enough to put physical modeling on the market, but pay for some acoustic technician to do sampling measurements. Thats the way if you was not willing to pay engineers and programmers to do excellent work. So all the behavior we expect could be modeled and if there is an open interface for programming there will be many open source developer to contribute to the perfect piano. There will be supid business, but no passion in DP development. Good to have Roland v-piano and soon hopefully viscount physis piano

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#1983892 - 11/07/12 07:17 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: ap55]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: ap55
Wouldn't be the physical modeling really the solution. What can you expect from companies that are not really eager to can get proud enough to put physical modeling on the market, but pay for some acoustic technician to do sampling measurements. Thats the way if you was not willing to pay engineers and programmers to do excellent work. So all the behavior we expect could be modeled and if there is an open interface for programming there will be many open source developer to contribute to the perfect piano. There will be supid business, but no passion in DP development. Good to have Roland v-piano and soon hopefully viscount physis piano


This post looks like it makes sense when you read it fast, but on careful parsing, I realize I have no idea what you are saying.

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#1983981 - 11/08/12 02:43 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
@gvfarns: If there is a physical modeling, the piano will be well defined in a software-code. If this code is open, so an evolution of this code in the backward direction will likely be avoided, because what happens is transparent. The same situation appears if there is competition in a traceable situation (software modeling is usually traceable, if the code is available, or at least for the company who did it). For sampled based piano there is a lot of competition, but no traceability what really happens, because the evolution of sampled based piano is only on adding with some workaround new features.

But may be you are requesting with your question for a conclusion. In this respect you are right concerning my missing question mark for the first sentence: "Wouldn't be the physical modeling really the solution" ??? So my post was more a question, which can be answered. The actually conclusion for me I tried in the last sentence, which should not focus on a special brand, but in fact that I think it is good to have the first physical modeling pianos on the market and the horizon with above respect. If this market will grow hopefully in future we will not need to discuss about some shortcomings of different features for sampled based pianos.

Or you like to see it that way, that my contribution is therewith closed because self-containing. You like you might agree or post a counterrevolutionary opinion. On one point however you are right, it does not contribute to an answer to former question and complaints, but put them in a more global light.

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#1984109 - 11/08/12 10:45 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 573
Loc: Mt View, CA
@ap55 - Are you mesmerized by Physis, or just an astroturfing marketer?

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#1984115 - 11/08/12 11:01 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
@ap55, FYI I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with anything you say, it's just that there were enough typos and grammar errors that I literally could not figure out what you were trying to communicate. I appreciate your clarification.

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#1984155 - 11/08/12 12:47 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
@gvfarns, yes sorry for the grammar errors, I am not a native english speaker.
@xorbe: May be I am mesmerized by new technology going in my opinion the right way, not by a special brand. I am not a marketer.

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#1984165 - 11/08/12 01:07 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Is there a release date for Physis or this vapourware? Unreleased products can always appear amazing "on paper".
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
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#1984454 - 11/09/12 02:11 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
http://audioelectric.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p13780_viscount-physis-piano-h2.html.

My verbal information is from the distributor here in Germany and from beginning of October. The availability was said to be from mid of Nov and it is already offered for order, see above link.

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#1984886 - 11/10/12 04:03 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
Yesterday jumped in the shop (next door on the way to home) and I tried it out with a number instruments and now I concluded for myself, that this feature has no practical importance for me at all.

If you press some key(s) --> sustain pedal --> pedal up while holding some key(s) down, damper up remains effective, and that is the only thing which I use while playing. The instruments I tested did it well. (As my older Kawai CA51 get it right as well). This behaviour could come next to a real sostenuto-mimic.

Key up, than pressing it very slowly (silently) again while pedal down - this seems now an awkward and useless playing technic to me - not a real sostenuto simulation at all. (As a matter of fact neither one of them because you have to hold the key down, not a pedal!) The only use I can imagine is to show the effect of some vague finger technic, but I am not that sure if that has a practical importance at all.

The whole topic now seems to be about a fault in term of a perfectionist attitude only.

(The next logical step for an ultimate modeling of a concert grand you should have heavy bricks built in the DP cabinet to simulate the same weight as the real thing)

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#1984960 - 11/10/12 09:02 AM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: ap55]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: ap55
http://audioelectric.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p13780_viscount-physis-piano-h2.html.

My verbal information is from the distributor here in Germany and from beginning of October. The availability was said to be from mid of Nov and it is already offered for order, see above link.


Interesting. I expect there will be a Winter NAMM announcement.
_________________________
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#1985077 - 11/10/12 03:28 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2220
Loc: Sydney, Australia
That price for the Physis is less than I thought it would be, and I love the demo recordings!
P.S And it sounds MORE metallic than Pianoteq, which is a GOOD thing, IMHO. The metallic quality in the Physis is a GOOD kind of metallic.

Greg.


Edited by sullivang (11/10/12 03:31 PM)

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#1985087 - 11/10/12 03:54 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
dje31 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/03/10
Posts: 218
Two versions even! H1 &H2!
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#1985097 - 11/10/12 04:35 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: sullivang]
Temperament Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 424
Loc: Hun,EU
I would like better a SW-only model instead of a complete dedicated proprietary HW/Sw solution.

I would regard a SW Piano as good halfway between Open Source and a proprietary package as Physis or VPiano.

Reasons: With modeled instruments You have to buy in a fast developing new technology. If a DP is sold only HW-bundled , you have to pay for the whole package roughly 5 to 10 times as much as for a SW. The whole package will be amortised, you cannot upgrade it after 3 years (neither people who take it second hand).

Necessary computing power is nowadays at hand with normal PCs (4-6 core CPUs with 8-12 "virtual" cores), "unlimited" storage (speed and capacity) and excellent semi-pro soundcards with no latency. You can easily update your HW which You do regularly anyway.

You are then flexible, can choose the right keyboard for Your taste, level of sound quality of sound cards, amplifiers, right sound boxes. And You can play with other instruments (not only pianos) as well.

From this standpoint I find it desirable to avoid paying too much for proprietary dedicated modelled HW-SW DPs if there are other altenatives. (By the way, the same applies for sampled DPs as well).

3000 EUR/$ for a DP is only justified for me, if it has an outstanding keyboard (value 1000 EUR/$) a good sound system (1000-1500 EUR/$ value) which can be used with external sound sources as well.

The only modelled SW pianos I know are
  • Pianoteq (plastic sound - NOT QUITE RIGHT, not so weightful as some SW-Pianos, but as a whole very instrument-like)
  • Sound Magic Imperial Grand3d (evaluated it newly - not in a league with Pianoteq)
  • Truepianos (simplest of all of them)
Even VPianos have a somewhat plasticly quality to my taste. Sampled pianos are just a more mature technology today.


Edited by Temperament (11/14/12 05:45 PM)
Edit Reason: At last I bought Pianoteq4: what a big surprise superb playability!

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#1985114 - 11/10/12 05:55 PM Re: Something nearly ALL digital pianos get wrong. [Re: jscomposer]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
FYI, you should check out the DPBSD thread on TruePianos. It's a sampled, looped, stretched piano, not a modelled one. The technology is similar to what's found on onboard piano tone engines. Apparently the idea that it's modelled is a myth.


Edited by gvfarns (11/10/12 06:05 PM)

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