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#1971033 - 10/09/12 10:04 PM Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced?
dracaa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/12
Posts: 65
I'm considering purchasing a used 1994 Kohler and Campbell 5'9" grand (skg-600s). Only thing is, quite a few of the notes above the G below middle C sound too bright for my taste when play with moderate force. They sound ok if played soft OR with the soft pedal. I have no problem with the notes below that G.

So I would like to know before buying how effective it would be to have a tech needle the hammers. Just wanting to eliminate that upper harmonic sharpness I hear.

The hammers look fairly worn to me but you be the judge: http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu259/sarta53/pianokeys_zps9ab53055.jpg

Is there much hope that those keys can be softened up to my liking?
_________________________
Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.

Top
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#1971044 - 10/09/12 10:34 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

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#1971058 - 10/09/12 11:01 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Agreed!
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1971085 - 10/09/12 11:45 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: beethoven986]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Agreed!


And the improvement will not be subtle.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#1971094 - 10/09/12 11:56 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: kpembrook]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3320
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: beethoven986
Originally Posted By: Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Agreed!


And the improvement will not be subtle.


Also agreed!
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#1971125 - 10/10/12 12:48 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]
michelleyh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/08
Posts: 58
Loc: Malaysia
The hammers are groovy but not too groovy. I would suggesting steaming it to soften up the hammers and then it will be less groovy. For me. filing is the last resort because it reduces the size and mass of the hammers.

You should talk to your technician. He/she will come up with something.

Also, i haven't heard it yet. So i cannot help much too.
_________________________
Michelle YH Toe, LLCM
Piano Technician, CSPT
Piano Teacher
Accompanist
www.facebook.com/MichelleYHToe

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#1971202 - 10/10/12 07:58 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]
Mark Cerisano, RPT Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 1185
Loc: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
My opinion is that the hammers are grooved quite a bit and will need to be filed. Steaming can make a difference but it is temporary. Once the humidity leaves the hammers, they will be back to a bright sound. Brightness in loud playing indicates they need to be voiced, deep needling on the shoulders.
_________________________
Mark Cerisano, RPT
www.howtotunepianos.com

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#1983352 - 11/06/12 09:04 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]
dracaa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/12
Posts: 65
Originally Posted By: Supply
Normally on a piano like this, hammer filing and voicing will make a noticeable improvement. Action cleaning and lubrication go hand in hand with that. As well, the regulation will need to be tweaked. Ask your technician how much a full service like that will cost.


Could you elaborate on what parts can use "lubrication"? I have purchased this piano and the main part I think needs "lubrication" would be the hammer shank joint, since now there are about 5 hammers that have friction and don't fall as smoothly as the rest, however in another post I was advised to have the hammers repinned rather than lubricated.
_________________________
Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.

Top
#1983418 - 11/06/12 12:17 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
If you have slow hammers in a piano, then usually lubrication will only be a very temporary solution. The proper way to fix this is to re-pin the hammers, as has been said.
The friction of all the parts must be as even as possible before voicing (and for proper functioning of the action in general). We attain this by a combination of lubrication of many different contact points using different lubricants, and by making sure that the flange pinning is in the correct range. This is part of a full service.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#1983431 - 11/06/12 01:14 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21423
Loc: Oakland
Back to the original question, the trouble with voicing pianos is finding someone competent to do it. If you have someone, that person can assess the piano. If you do not, what people say is possible makes no difference.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1983485 - 11/06/12 04:06 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1308
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Supply
If you have slow hammers in a piano, then usually lubrication will only be a very temporary solution. The proper way to fix this is to re-pin the hammers, as has been said.
The friction of all the parts must be as even as possible before voicing (and for proper functioning of the action in general). We attain this by a combination of lubrication of many different contact points using different lubricants, and by making sure that the flange pinning is in the correct range. This is part of a full service.


Hmm. My experience has been different. I find that usually a shot of Protek CLP does wonders.

Sometimes, though, it is necessary to repin.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

Top
#1983501 - 11/06/12 04:41 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Yes, lubrication of hammer centers can help if the centers are not too tight. The OP mentions "there are about 5 hammers that have friction and don't fall as smoothly as the rest".

In all cases of my experience, by the time a player notices that the hammers are sluggish, the flanges are too tight for lubrication in itself to be a reliable long term fix. They need to be re-pinned. And usually, if the client notices five "bad" ones, there are ten more that are marginal which also need attention.
_________________________
Jurgen Goering
Piano Forte Supply
www.pianofortesupply.com

Piattino Caster Cups distributor

Top
#1983510 - 11/06/12 04:52 PM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: Supply]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada
Originally Posted By: Supply
And usually, if the client notices five "bad" ones, there are ten more that are marginal which also need attention.


Then once you get the action apart and the weight is off the whippens there could be a lot more....
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1984047 - 11/08/12 08:29 AM Re: Will this piano sound much different if hammers are voiced? [Re: dracaa]
dracaa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/31/12
Posts: 65
Thanks for the feedback. Ok I will remove the 5 slow hammers and take them to a tech to have them repinned.

Question: would repinning involve replacing the felt bushing as well?

Also I should mention that all 5 slow hammers are on the most commonly played keys, which are C, E, G (as the key of C is played hardest and most often).

Do hammers normally slow down through normal wear & tear this way?
_________________________
Kohler and Campbell skg-600s 5'9 grand (newly acquired)
I'm not a tech but ambitiously learning out of necessity
since I live in the middle of nowhere and getting a tech
to come out here for minor things (that I could and want
to learn to do myself) is prohibitively expensive.

Top

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