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#1984055 - 11/08/12 08:40 AM Fazioli pianos
Kugupiyano Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/12
Posts: 6
Hey guys,
I just want to see what everybody thinks about Fazioli Pianos?

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#1984068 - 11/08/12 09:03 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Axtremus Offline
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Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
Here: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...html#Post908949

I posted that 7+ years ago; not sure if anything has significantly changed with Fazioli since.
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#1984075 - 11/08/12 09:26 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Steve Cohen Online   content
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Fazioli is among several of the finest pianos in the world today. It has a rather distinctive sound that has fans among those who are looking for that sound.

The same can be said of the other top-rated instruments.
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#1984124 - 11/08/12 11:29 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
bfeils Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/29/12
Posts: 25
Makes me want spaghetti.

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#1984131 - 11/08/12 11:41 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
sophial Offline
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Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3475
Loc: US
They are beautiful pianos with a very clean, cool and clinical sound, a bit too much in that direction for my taste, which runs towards a warmer and more colorful tonal palette.

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#1984141 - 11/08/12 12:04 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: sophial]
Stryder87 Offline
Gold Level Forums Subscriber Until Aug 29 2013

Registered: 01/16/12
Posts: 88
Loc: New Westminster, BC Canada
Originally Posted By: sophial
They are beautiful pianos with a very clean, cool and clinical sound, a bit too much in that direction for my taste, which runs towards a warmer and more colorful tonal palette.


I would have to agree with sophial. I’ve had the opportunity to play on a couple higher-end Fazioli Concert Grands and, while I found them to have incredible action and touch with the sound being extremely bright, clear and crisp, I also have to admit that, when compared to some of the others I played, the Fazioli was very ‘clinical’. The sound was very loud and clear, with each note being easy to single out. However, it was a little too clear. It seemed to lack warmth and depth. Don’t get me wrong, they are beautiful pianos, and they definitely make amazing performance pianos, but my taste ran more to the warmer and more ‘blended’ sound of the C. Bechstein I was comparing it to.

Still, if I had $170,000 to drop on a piano, the ones I played would definitely be contenders!
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#1984177 - 11/08/12 01:36 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Stryder87]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
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Loc: Glendale, Ca.
What can I say...great pianos !
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#1984206 - 11/08/12 02:32 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
4evrBeginR Offline
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Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
I had a couple of opportunities to play Fazioli including a concert grand. My impression was a bit of a let down. Maybe I went into it with over-expectations? The sound is very clean, bright, cold, with nice resonances. I really like clean and bright sound, but didn't care for cool palette. Nevertheless, I have a lot of respect for small companies dedicated to absolute quality in today's global-economic mass production world. As far as I know, they are still independently owned, and hopefully will stay that way.

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#1984245 - 11/08/12 04:19 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: sophial]
AJF Offline
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Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1625
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: sophial
They are beautiful pianos with a very clean, cool and clinical sound, a bit too much in that direction for my taste, which runs towards a warmer and more colorful tonal palette.


+1
But if someone wanted to give me one for my birthday I wouldn't say no!
wink

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#1984286 - 11/08/12 06:08 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
RealPlayer Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 2340
Loc: NYC
I pretty much agree with the above assessments, though my experience with Faziolis is limited. I've only played a few brand-new showroom models.

I do wonder if they change at all once they are played in for a few years, the way many other pianos do. I wonder how they develop tonally.
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#1984295 - 11/08/12 06:26 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
dsch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 325
Loc: florida
Yamaha on steroids.

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#1984305 - 11/08/12 06:39 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
pianoloverus Online   content
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If one listens to Daniil Trifonov playing a Fazioli on some of his YouTube recordings, I think most of the above criticisms disappear very quickly. I think it's very significant that one of the greatest young pianists on the planet sometimes chooses to play a Fazioli.


Edited by pianoloverus (11/08/12 06:40 PM)

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#1984313 - 11/08/12 06:52 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
PianoIsLife Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/12/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Orange County, California
I was actually privileged enough to play on one for a music festival in Italy. I actually played an F308 with orchestra performing Saint-Saen's 2nd Piano Concerto. What a magical experience. That piano has a remarkable action and incredible power when called upon. I feel that playing it is like painting on a blank canvas. You must decide everything that will come out of the instrument. I see most other pianos as imparting a sort of pre-shading to the tone that I may or may not like depending on what I'm playing.

Long story short, I would buy one in a heartbeat over almost everything if I could afford it frown

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#1984344 - 11/08/12 08:27 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Registered: 03/12/07
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Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I've only played one bad one. That was years ago at the Colburn School in Zipper Hall. It sounded overly bright and just bad. Whoever was taking care of the pianos at that time was doing a pretty bad job...
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#1984380 - 11/08/12 09:30 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
charleslang Offline
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Registered: 10/13/08
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The tone of the Fazioli makes me think of the Stonetone pianos. These are pianos that have been modified by using a bridge made of solid granite (solid rock).

Here is a Story and Clark that has had this modification done. (Poor man's Fazioli?)

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#1984381 - 11/08/12 09:34 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
gmf001 Offline
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Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 247
Loc: Uxbridge, ON, Canada
I had a chance to play a number of Faziolis. I'd agree with many of the comments. The build quality and action is superb and the consistency between pianos is quite remarkable. As pointed out they are prepped so they are very clear and the treble in my mind is often too bright. Of the models I prefer the 278 to the 308, the 278 seems to hang together better and from the ones I've played it seemed like it had more power and colour. I've liked a number of the 218s I've played, especially if they've received some local service work to balance the wonderful bass with a richer treble. While the pianos are all prepped in a very specific way, it appears as if they can be prepped across a wide spectrum. As many have stated, they wouldn't be my first choice - but I wouldn't complain if someone wanted to gift one to me :-).

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#1984391 - 11/08/12 10:03 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: dsch]
BDB Offline
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Originally Posted By: dsch
Yamaha on steroids.


Not to me. I tuned a 308 and a CFIIIs the same afternoon once, and I preferred the Yamaha. The Fazioli had a nice action, though.
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#1984396 - 11/08/12 10:18 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: BDB]
dsch Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 325
Loc: florida
I should have said Yamaha C series on steroids.

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#1985051 - 11/10/12 01:51 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
bennevis Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5279
Among concert grands, I've probably played the Fazioli F278 more than any other, and it's second only to the Bösendorfer Imperial 290 in my estimation (though they're very different beasts), in terms of what it feels like to play, its responsiveness to touch and basically, what I can do with it. However I've never had the chance to play the F308.

Steinway D has its own coloration and character which is almost ubiquitous because most concert pianists play it, but I prefer the Fazioli's purer tone with its stronger fundamentals; however, it's easy to understand that people brought up on the Steinway sound may find the Fazioli's relative lack of 'built-in color' somewhat disappointing. But listen to a great pianist play it and you'll see what it can do. Nikolai Demidenko recorded his first Bach/Busoni CD on Steinway D and his second on Fazioli F278 for Hyperion: listen to both and you'll understand why he changed piano for the later recording......
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#1985079 - 11/10/12 03:30 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: charleslang]
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2726
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: charleslang
The tone of the Fazioli makes me think of the Stonetone pianos. These are pianos that have been modified by using a bridge made of solid granite (solid rock).

Here is a Story and Clark that has had this modification done. (Poor man's Fazioli?)


Off Topic, but here is the exact same model of Story & Clark, no Stonetone, with a moderate effort at prep. Had we recorded more low bass, the recording would have revealed more limitations of this piano, but I think it does show that it is hard to demonstrate a single "feature" on any machine as complicated as a piano.
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#1985094 - 11/10/12 04:22 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: PianoWorksATL]
charleslang Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 2080
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Originally Posted By: charleslang
The tone of the Fazioli makes me think of the Stonetone pianos. These are pianos that have been modified by using a bridge made of solid granite (solid rock).

Here is a Story and Clark that has had this modification done. (Poor man's Fazioli?)


Off Topic, but here is the exact same model of Story & Clark, no Stonetone, with a moderate effort at prep. Had we recorded more low bass, the recording would have revealed more limitations of this piano, but I think it does show that it is hard to demonstrate a single "feature" on any machine as complicated as a piano.


Funny, I see these videos and hear a big difference in terms of the sustain, even taking into account the clearly different acoustics of the spaces and methods of recording.

I think the videos present an interesting comparison, since in both videos the performers are 'milking' the sustain of the pianos. But I do perceive the tone on the piano with the standard bridge to have less body and sustain.

The Stonetone pianos have a demonstration video where two Baldwins of the same model are played in the same room -- one with the Stonetone bridge and the other without.

There was a thread a while back (I'm too lazy to find it) where the stone bridge was discussed. In that thread, I was on the side of people who were skeptical about the stone bridge because of some apparent implications of physics for this kind of bridge. The mass of the granite is obviously much greater than wood. This would seem to suggest that the sustain will be longer, but at the expense of initial sound volume (the energy in the string can't dissipate into sound as quickly because it has to move a heavier mass).

However, the videos have stuck in my memory because the tone seems to me to be compelling for a certain taste. And the attack doesn't seem to be weak, as the assumptions I just mentioned would suggest. So I think the assumptions based on those physical factors I mentioned might be leaving some factor out.

It makes me wonder about the design and construction used by Fazioli in their bridges.
_________________________
Charles Lang
Working on: A Night in Tunisia; Memories of Tomorrow (Keith Jarrett).
Just started: Brazilian Like (Michel Petrucciani)

Baldwin Model R (1974), Hardman 5'9" grand (1915), Rieger-Kloss 42.5" vertical

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#1985621 - 11/12/12 06:03 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Kugupiyano Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/08/12
Posts: 6
Has anyone experienced F308 Model? How do you feel when you play a big composition? Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky etc...

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#1985647 - 11/12/12 08:28 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
I've played the 308 in Chicago at Pianoforte Chicago. It is a most remarkable piano. It is quieter than some of the 9 foot neighbors in the same showroom, but can of course project considerable volume (without straining the ears) if you desire. The most amazing thing was the action, which on all Faziolis are highly responsive, but I have never played such an action where all the bass notes are as easy to play as the treble notes. It seems Fazioli has completely eliminated the issue of weight in these notes. I imagine it would be easy to play all the Chopin-Godowsky etudes on this piano, including the ones where Godowsky puts the difficult technical passages in the left hand.

The tone on all Faziolis coming out of the factory in Sacile is carefully regulated and each piano must pass a personal test by Paolo Fazioli. In that respect, the tone he prefers emphasizes the fundamental of each note, which some people will describe as clinical or cold. The piano does not need to sound that way when it sits in your home. Any decent technician can work with the hammers and voice them to emphasize more of the harmonics. Second, there is a screw/bolt that can be adjusted which changes the pressure on the soundboard (I think I'm describing this accurately). This alters the tone and it might be an illusion, but the volume coming from the piano seems to change as well. Third, the aliquots are all moveable, and Paolo provides the technicians with a tool that makes it easy to adjust these. You can make sure that the harmonics coming from this section of the string are pure, or if you wish you can muddy them slightly by having them a bit off key (a slightly high or low fifth, for example).

Paolo - who is an amazing combination of entrepreneur, inventor, scientist, artist, and gentleman - is constantly changing and enhancing his instruments. The fourth pedal on the 308 has a new feature that allows you to shift it slightly and lock it in; tap it again and it releases the pedal. The half-blow feature can therefore be locked, leaving your foot to use the una corda or sostenuto for further tonal possibilities. Paolo did not invent the locked pedal mechanism - it's been around for a very long time on other pianos.

My F228 is over twenty years old and the soundboard is beginning to blossom in some wonderful ways. The tone is getting richer without the loss of clarity that characterizes the Fazioli. Since the wood in the soundboard is from the same trees used for many centuries by Italian luthiers such as Stradivarius, I am hoping that over the next 100 - 200 years the soundboard will continue to evolve as it has done in violins and cellos. That will be for my descendants to enjoy.

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#1985679 - 11/12/12 10:24 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Numerian]
BerndAB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 544
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Numerian
My F228 is over twenty years old and the soundboard is beginning to blossom in some wonderful ways. The tone is getting richer without the loss of clarity that characterizes the Fazioli. Since the wood in the soundboard is from the same trees used for many centuries by Italian luthiers such as Stradivarius, I am hoping that over the next 100 - 200 years the soundboard will continue to evolve as it has done in violins and cellos. That will be for my descendants to enjoy.


Ohh noo... It is common knowledge to "all-american" (TM) pianomakers ( ;-)) sorry ma pals..) that soundboard wood will not last any longer than 30 yrs.. oops. .. was it 50 yrs?
;-)

Whenever you go to Steinway to let them restore your old Steinway grand and it is older than 1980, they will extract the old soundboard and install a new one..

= = =

I own a S&S concert grand (age 135 yrs) with original soundboard. Once it had some six gaps.. It was then refurbished in a "european manner" by v-cutting and glueing-in wooden strips. But this soundboard once was made from Appalachian white spruce, a material which was no longer available after the 1920ies..

The saga of the forests in the Val di Fiemme and the Strad sound wood also was corrected partially. The old Italians partly bought wood from the people of Venice who once got it from the mountaon ranges of the peninsula Istria, now Slovenia and Croatia. Then the wood was stored in water bassins (ca. three years) where anaerobic mushrooms and bacteria cracked nearly all woodden fibre glue. Then the wood was sold to the violin makers. They themselves stored the wood again and let it dry.

It was the lightest and best spruce sound wood ever and is it still today. Lowest specific weight you can find of any needle wood!

The preparation method by letting the wood rot and let the fibre glue be dissolved by anaerobic bacteria was (re-) explored by a swiss man some years before - now it is knowledge of some ultra-high class violin makers of today who again sell violins of extraordinary craftmanship (five figure prices, one or two figures lower than an ancient Strad..) - and with extraordinary light ultra-high class sound wood.

Sometimes I dream of an experts work to produce a soundboard by these violinmaker new-old methods and with wood from Istria, three years stored in a water bassin..

My 0.02 EURO cents

=== completely OT of Fazioli and wood.. ===

BTW I ordered to refurbish a light set of old Steinway hammers fom the 1930ies (with this remarkable grey felt on the base of the hammer). The set also was most probably extracted (like the soundboards) at the factory, it once was a victim of Vertigris.. copper corrosion at the wires. But hammers of nice state and shape - light..

We built in by a test run three of these ancient hammersm to compare the sound with the neighbpourin tones - and it was a "hammer hard" astonishment for both of us, me & the very experienced tech: what a blooming sound! absolutely NO comparison to the freshly installed (2.5 yrs before) hammers of this thick high-density felt and broad, heavy hammer heads for actual D size grands..

The old set formely had Vertigris, (no: has still..) but it will be re-fitted with new wires and felt bearings, the hammers will be slightly shaped.

It will be a delayed Christmas gift for me when the piano technician (a Bosendorfer apprentice and 40 yrs experienced technician) will come and install this set in March or April.

I will report afterwards.

Sorry Numerian for having "piratized" the thread..
;-)



Edited by BerndAB (11/12/12 10:47 AM)
Edit Reason: typing errors..
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#1985741 - 11/12/12 02:39 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
The saga of the forests in the Val di Fiemme and the Strad sound wood also was corrected partially. The old Italians partly bought wood from the people of Venice who once got it from the mountaon ranges of the peninsula Istria, now Slovenia and Croatia. Then the wood was stored in water bassins (ca. three years) where anaerobic mushrooms and bacteria cracked nearly all woodden fibre glue. Then the wood was sold to the violin makers. They themselves stored the wood again and let it dry.



Interesting.

Always thought there was more 'saga'than truth to the matter.

For example many violin makers have experimented around in the past with Val di Fiemme Ciresa spruce without getting anywhere close to the sound of Stradivarius.

Swiss research has meantime proven that the special wood used for Stradivarius had less to do with any one particular type wood but the influence of fungi [mushrooms] grown at a time of rather unique metereological conditions during same era.

http://www.aponet.de/aktuelles/kurioses/2012-09-pilz-laesst-geige-wie-stradivari-klingen.html

We once had an Estonia grand made using same Ciresa wood in soundboard - hardly any difference.

Except 'price'...



Norbert


Edited by Norbert (11/12/12 02:55 PM)
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#1985745 - 11/12/12 02:55 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
There's magic in the mushrooms! smile

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#1985746 - 11/12/12 02:56 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
There's magic in the mushrooms!


No, no - our Estonia was 'clean'

Norbert grin
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#1985786 - 11/12/12 04:39 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Chopinlover49 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 640
I am always puzzled when PW posters severely criticize really high-end Tier 1 pianos that often are priced in the six figures. Can they really be that bad? I know every pianist has his own preferences for type of tone or touch, and that is fine, but some posters talk down some really extraordinary pianos like they are junk. Are they just snobs? I can't imagine that a Fazioli piano couldn't be voiced to please almost any performer. Maybe I am naive, but I would take one if they were inexpensive. I just don't have that kind of money. Don't get me wrong, I love my Mason-Hamlin BB and have no plans to ever replace it. But a Fazioli in the same size would be incredibly expensive in comparison!


Edited by Chopinlover49 (11/12/12 04:40 PM)

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#1985788 - 11/12/12 04:43 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
I loved the story of the 1930s Steinway hammers. Maybe Steinway should start experimenting with verdigris on their hammers. Or maybe it's the fact that the felt is 80 years old.

The Frederick Collection has many pianos over 100 years old with what appear to be original soundboards. They seem to be functioning quite well with very distinctive tonal properties. Of course, the consensus is that soundboards lose their crowns after 50 years or so and turn dead, assuming they could avoid cracks. Is the consensus wrong? Are there some fantastic Steinways or Mason & Hamlins from the 1920s still in use? That would give us better reason to think Faziolis could last as long too.

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#1985837 - 11/12/12 06:26 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2338
Loc: SoCal
Interesting how we went from Fazioli to dealers sneaking in plugs for Story & Clark and Estonia. We even got in a little dig at Steinway. This may be the perfect PW thread!

And BTW, I thought Sam's Story & Clark sounded pretty nice.
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#1985846 - 11/12/12 06:46 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
This may, indeed, be the perfect PW thread.

Please keep in mind that the Estonia's were under the influence of *magic mushrooms.* I think that the Faziolis are influenced by something else before they self-deport.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1985909 - 11/12/12 09:55 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Norbert]
BerndAB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/17/10
Posts: 544
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Swiss research has meantime proven that the special wood used for Stradivarius had less to do with any one particular type wood but the influence of fungi [mushrooms] grown at a time of rather unique metereological conditions during same era.

http://www.aponet.de/aktuelles/kurioses/2012-09-pilz-laesst-geige-wie-stradivari-klingen.html



Norbert, THX to that link.

Some little corrections from the article in german language.. ;-) (if wanted, I could do a rough transation to EN?)

The fungi made the wooden cell structure thinner along of some years – but they kept the structure. Thinner cells but still stable.

The meteorolgical conditions of these years were not conneted with the special fungus but with the fact of very dense wood grown in a “little ice age” of that time. So the Stradivarius and Guarneri and Amati violin makers had wood available which was not unique because of the fungus but unique because of the trees (yet planted or grown up) then having standed the “little ice age” of that times, resulting in very dense circular structures of small cells et cetera in the sounding wood (many growth rings per inch).

If there were young trees planted within the "ice age", they would not have grown up. The precondition was to have the trees yet living - and then to have them "cool down" in the little ice age..

Conditions which sound irregular: you'll need to plant the "false" wood (for the environmental conditions) - and then let it grow slowly at "too cold" conditions.

Difficult.. Seems to be a process which maybe cannot be industrialized or exploited for best sound wood..

And we would have to evaluate/estimate how much of the "good sound content" is built-in by the fungus thinning the cellular walls, and how much "good sound content" is coming from the "little ice age" wood..


Edited by BerndAB (11/12/12 09:56 PM)
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#1985916 - 11/12/12 10:14 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: BerndAB]
Guapo Gabacho Offline
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Originally Posted By: BerndAB
Some little corrections from the article in german language..


Google does a great job on this interesting article:

Fungus can sound like Stradivari violin
You do not need millions of euros for an original Stradivarius violin spend to get this special sound. It is enough to treat the wood of a new instrument with special fungi.

Swiss wood researcher Professor Francis WMR Schwarze from St. Gallen has discovered fungi (Physisporinus vitreus and Xylaria longipes) that decompose the two major for violin making spruce and maple woods, so that their sound quality can be improved. The peculiarity of these fungi is to degrade the cell walls of the wood gradually and make thinner, Black said at a lecture at the Max Delbrück Center in Berlin. Even in the late stages of wood decay remains a rigid framework obtained via sound waves could still spread directly. The wood also remains the same as before the break-resistant fungal treatment.

DISPLAY
In a blind test was a violin made of treated wood against a genuine Stradivarius from 1711. With surprising results: Both the jury, as well as the majority of the audience thought the new violin for the genuine Stradivarius. "Of course, such a procedure is always subjective," admits Black. For euphony there is just no clear scientific measurement methods.

The famous violin maker Antonio Stradivari used during the late 17th and early 18th Century a particular wood that had grown during a cold period between 1645 and 1715. By long winters and cool summers, the wood grew very slowly and then, so it had a low density and a high flexural strength.
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#1985918 - 11/12/12 10:16 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Chopinlover49 Offline
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I think you can thank the tension resonator device, or spider, on the older Masons that still have some crown. I know there is no proof, but there seem to be a lot of them still holding up. If the soundboard is still good on my BB in 50 years, I won't know because I would be 113 years old then.

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#1985925 - 11/12/12 10:27 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
BDB Offline
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A friend of mine who makes violins and once brought a Strad to my house said that all these people who do research on the wood in them just do not want to admit that the guy knew what he was doing when he made violins.
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#1986048 - 11/13/12 08:36 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Guapo Gabacho]
BerndAB Offline
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THX Guapo G.

I would have done same on demand ;-) , get a pre translation via google, and smoothen the result.

PLS Give me Istria wood and a water bassin with fungus. Then an experienced Cremona violin maker with some good ideas how to build up a piano soundboard from that fungus wood stuff - extremely thin but resistant.

Maybe to build up a wooden folio without crown, with no pre tensioning load on top of the crown against the string tension? And for this purpose to omit the zigzag pattern of a conventional bridge?

To use bridge agraffes for a flat membrane?

I don't know. But I would love to hear a result in my life time - on a veritable nine footer.

What about this australian guy who uses flat glass as a soundboard? to myknowledge with bridge agraffes.

or what about the carbon fibre sound board "Phoenix" from Florida?

or try similar with sound wood, the maybe-best ever? maybe hand picked Siberian wood, gained by helicopter harvesting..?..

I read a book of a Munich based violin maker who goes with a chainsaw and an axt and with a helping friend into the highest wood regions in the alps, where no machinery can go, to pickout HIS sound wood personally. They test the trees by applying the flat side of the axt,: how it sounds.

Then apply the "Perry Knize" speech: a tree dies. A piano (violin) is born.

Bring this wood down the hill by ultra hard work. A MUCH BIGGER effort to gain the best sound wood possible.., compared with industrialized harvesting in Canada, Alaska, Val di Fiemme.

Or am I wrong?
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#1986088 - 11/13/12 10:45 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Bob Newbie Offline
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Ah...! so its the fungus amongus!... smile

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#1986113 - 11/13/12 11:26 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Thrill Science Offline
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The fit and finish of the Faziolis are beautiful. I looked at the 228 before I settled on my current Bösendorfer 225, and the piano looked better under the hood. Many of the parts are gold-plated, etc. (I don't know if this is "standard" or an option.)

However I preferred the mellower sound of the Bösendorfer. If you want a high-quality "bright" sound, I think the Fazioli is a good choice (and it's slightly cheaper than Bösendorfer :-) )

I wasn't able to compare them back-to-back, and I didn't pay much attention to the concert sizes when I was evaluating, because I was looking for something for the home.

(And greetings from Porto, Portugal! I'm here to hear a concert at the Casa De Musica; I'll be back in the states tomorrow if my flight isn't canceled because of the General Strike!)


Edited by Thrill Science (11/13/12 11:32 AM)
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#1986143 - 11/13/12 12:07 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Norbert Offline
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Faziolis are first class instruments, in some ways in a class of their own. You may like or not like their sound but fit and finish is incredible.

By same token,Ciresa soundboards, while also first rate, are not sufficiently unique to guarantee unique tone.

Several other makers including Sauter use them in some of their models, yet the pianos have entirely different sound characteristics.



Others like Steingraeber don't use Ciresa wood but their pianos are perhaps the closest to Fazili sound I know.



The conclusion I have long come to believe that it's not just one particular component that makes an instrument great similiarly as great grapes don't 'by themselves' make for a great wine.

It's the combination of many other factors, many of them a secret by maker.

This IMHO doesn't take away but adds to the mystique and beauty of something truly special such as the top pianos of the world.

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (11/13/12 12:24 PM)
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#1988872 - 11/20/12 09:13 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
ClsscLib Offline

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Wait... I thought we aren't supposed to buy "Mussolini pianos.". Or maybe that's iceberg lettuce. One gets confused these days...
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#1988935 - 11/20/12 11:57 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: dsch]
RonaldSteinway Offline
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Originally Posted By: dsch
Yamaha on steroids.


Cannot agree more!!!

It has a Yamaha touch, but better. Clean sound like Yamaha, but a little warmer. Overall, it is a great piano. But sound wise, I like Steinway.

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#1988941 - 11/20/12 12:22 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Entheo Offline
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analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.
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#1992230 - 11/29/12 12:32 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Norbert Offline
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Interesting video re a German violin maker known for creating closest sound to Stradivarius: "it's not just one variable"...



Could pianos be that different?

It's obviously "in the wood" - but it ain't the only factor...

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (11/29/12 12:44 AM)
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#1992362 - 11/29/12 11:04 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Chopinlover49 Offline
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When it comes to which component (s) affect the tone, I think it is partly magic. You can try three identical models of the same brand and they all sound a little different frequently. Why? One will often speak to you. Magic. (Ok, it can be the prep, the way the people at the factory were feeling when they installed this or that component--was it a hangover Monday or a delightful Tuesday, etc.) Seriously, I have no idea but it is fun to speculate isn't it?

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#1992629 - 11/29/12 11:27 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
dsch Offline
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It only seems magical but there are quantifiable reasons behind stunning sound: highly resonant soundboards, thick rims, tight tolerances, scaling, strings, hammer type and treatment, and more.

Each maker has a signature sound but there are wide variations under that umbrella.

I have an ear for the expensive ones. I wish that I didn't.

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#1992669 - 11/30/12 02:34 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Norbert Offline
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Quote:
I have an ear for the expensive ones. I wish that I didn't.


No sweat.

For those there always still are Rits and Brodmanns..

Norbert help
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#1992671 - 11/30/12 02:40 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
BDB Offline
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Often the biggest difference between the best pianos and all but the worst is the setup and maintenance. There are a lot of excellent pianos that lose a lot of their qualities through neglect.
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#1992729 - 11/30/12 08:25 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
joe80 Offline
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Fazioli pianos, I agree, are perhaps the finest made pianos in existence. Their fit and finish is incredible, it's hard to fault them in many ways.

But, I agree, they sound a bit clinical. Very clear, yes, but somehow it feels like they lack in soul.

It's like, they are refined to the point of being useless. I prefer the ballsy sound of a Steinway.

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#2005272 - 12/28/12 01:06 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Norbert]
Dave Ferris Offline
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I played a solo gig tonight for a post-Christmas party at a private residence. The owners had a 212 they purchased from Pierre Julia last year.
Really nice ! Clarity and sustain for days. A huge bass for a 7 'er too. The action was super responsive. I was actually able to execute some passages from the classical pieces, I do on these type of gigs, easier then my D.

Sound was helped immensely by a large living room with angled walls and a cathedral type ceiling too.

The finish wasn't your typical high gloss ebony but high gloss mahogany finish. I'm not usually a fan of mahogany but the fact it sounded so good made me forget about the finish... smile

I play a lot of super dog pianos in even some of the most expensive homes, so this was a treat. Definitely made the night go faster and more fun...even if I was just wallpaper. wink
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#2005526 - 12/28/12 12:43 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: bfeils]
AJF Offline
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Originally Posted By: bfeils
Makes me want spaghetti.



That's like saying a Steinway makes you want Mac 'n Cheese.
Think bigger--like Provimi veal scallopini in a white wine and truffle sauce:)

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#2011600 - 01/09/13 08:17 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
belsha Offline
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I recently could compare side by side my own 1979 Hamburg Steinway B after it was completely refurbished (new mechanic and strings, but original soundboard) to a few Fazioli 212's at the shop that did the work on my piano. Somebody had seen my Steinway there by chance and wanted to buy it at an excellent price, for which basically I could have gotten a used year 2k F212 for exchange or a 2006 F212 that basically just hung around in the shop for a little extra cash. My 1979 Steinway B definitively was a lot better than the year 2000 Fazioli, but with the newer one it was a tough call (I resisted the temptation, though). In a sense, the Fazioli is the better — read, more modern, more technically advanced - piano. Most notable, even the 211cm Model B Steinway has a dead spot in the lower medium (i.e. the passage from the coiled to the uncoiled strings). Quiet a surprise to me for such a big piano, since I had gotten used to my (much older) Steinway D. Well, the Fazioli doesn't have that problem, it is much more even across the keyboard than the Steinway, and generally quiet a bit more powerful. But then, yes, the Steinway has a more complex, subtle, rich sound than the Fazioli, which is more straightforward, clean and clear-cut (I must say, without bragging, than my Model B is a particularly nice model and particularly well restored, better than most new models you would pick at the Hamburg Factory.)

My father had a 183cm Fazioli bought in the late 80's. It was a wonderful piano — clearly superior to any brand at that size — incredibly expressive, nuanced, with very round, singing tone, capable of an incredible dynamic range. But again, it maybe all was a little too much: that piano was build for projection, projection, projection, to be able to rival a much longer piano in a concert hall. As a result, it was quiet a nuisance to play even in a very large apartment, the sound would cause extreme reflections, echo, and thus muddle on nearly any surface. Building the most powerful piano possible at the smallest size possible doesn't seem the best of ideas to me : I actually would prefer a larger, less powerful piano, but with a richer palette, more balance (that would be a Boesendorfer....).

The description of the Fazioli as a "Super-Yamaha" many people came up with has also been my impression. Nothing wrong with that, Yamaha do make excellent pianos, and many at a far lower price ! (It could be interesting to compare the Faziolis with the new Yamaha CFX series pianos, they might be quiet similar).
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#2011623 - 01/09/13 09:15 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
bennevis Offline
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I play both the Fazioli F278 and the Yamaha CFX quite a lot, but they are chalk and cheese. The CFX has quite a brilliant tone when pushed, and is generally brighter than the F278, brighter also at the top than the CF-IIIS it replaces. The Fazioli has a rather more balanced sound across its whole keyboard, but is less 'colorful' than the Yamaha overall. In fact, the CFX is even more colorful, with very strong overtones at forte and beyond, than the Steinway D in many ways.

If you haven't heard the sound of the CFX, have a look at Youtube videos of HJ Lim, who's recorded the Beethoven Sonatas on the CFX.
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#2012026 - 01/10/13 01:41 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Entheo]
belsha Offline
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Originally Posted By: Entheo
analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.


That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".


Edited by belsha (01/10/13 01:50 AM)
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"Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!

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#2012030 - 01/10/13 01:47 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: bennevis]
belsha Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis
In fact, the CFX is even more colorful, with very strong overtones at forte and beyond, than the Steinway D in many ways.

If you haven't heard the sound of the CFX, have a look at Youtube videos of HJ Lim, who's recorded the Beethoven Sonatas on the CFX.


Thanks for the link ! I've never heard a CFX nor played one before. i'm surprised how metallic and shrill this piano can be, and how muffled but not really singing and warm in the softer passages. I had thought that Yamaha was aiming for a more european sound with their new models, this disappointed me a little. Of course this has a lot to do with prepping, mic placement and interpretation. Actually I recall having just barely tested one of their smaller CF models, and thought it was quite harsh, rather stiff too, and think I prefer their smoother, more flexible, warmer S series pianos.

So thumbs up to Fazioli for me on this one !

You must remember that these top-end Yamaha pianos sell at the same price as Faziolis or Steinways.
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#2012048 - 01/10/13 02:44 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Norbert Offline
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I have played Faziolis as far back as 25 years ago when I first saw them at Fischer pianos in Stuttgart Germany.

The ones I have played during the last few trade shows were all quite different from each other making it difficult to unify them under one single description.

While this is true for most makes, the noted variation did take me somewhat by some surprise.

Perhaps it's my hearing as one grows older...am hearing same including our own pianos too...

Norbert wink


Edited by Norbert (01/10/13 02:48 AM)
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#2012061 - 01/10/13 03:35 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
worldlinerai Offline
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Registered: 10/19/10
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Originally Posted By: belsha
Originally Posted By: Entheo
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.


That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".


Some people who don't play piano will not understand the difference between a $150K and a $15K piano. Even my parents think a Yamaha C-Series is equivalent to a Steinway with only price and name brand being the difference. These people seriously have to sit in front of the piano to hear the difference.

As for Fazioli's, which I can understand why people would love it, I find it too bright for my taste. The clarity is so sharp that it kind of stings my ears.
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#2012709 - 01/11/13 10:40 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Numerian Offline
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I doubt it is the clarity that is stinging your ears. It may be the loudness of the instrument, or as you say the many reverberations of the sound in a small apartment. Usually noises described as "stinging" or "irritating" come from discordance produced by partials that are not in tune (such as with the aliquots). I hope I am expressing this correctly, but the "killer octave" is well know for producing such irritations.

When Belsha talks about his father's piano causing unpleasant sounds, I'll bet you anything the father is not hearing these sounds the same way Belsha is. You lose some parts of your hearing at age 50 and progressively more as you age. You can have a real problem if you had a job that caused hearing loss when you were younger. I've told this story before on the Forum, but I went almost two years trying to get my technician to "fix" my Fazioli. It had started to sound too loud, too piercing, etc. It was causing tinnitus in my ears. Voicing, changing the hammers, and other things didn't help. Then I discovered that one of the medicines I was taking during this time caused tinnitus as a side effect for some patients. I stopped the medicine, the tinnitus went away, and the Fazioli sounded wonderful again. Considering how many medicines people take routinely these days (for cholesterol control, blood pressure, obesity, etc.), it is not surprising we get such different reactions from different people to the same instrument.

I noticed Norbert in a comment above is starting to appreciate the importance of one's hearing in determining which instruments are suitable and which are not. The unfortunate thing is that we all then extrapolate from the personal and condemn or praise the entire brand of instruments.

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#2012740 - 01/11/13 11:41 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
RealPlayer Offline
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Registered: 05/02/03
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Originally Posted By: belsha
Originally Posted By: Entheo
analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.


That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".


I would dispute this. It sounds like a denial that pieces of furniture can differ in quality and craftsmanship. And the "furniture" aspect of the piano, often called "fit and finish," is absolutely considered when assessing the piano's overall quality.
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#2012761 - 01/11/13 12:27 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
Entheo Offline
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Registered: 01/12/04
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Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: belsha
Originally Posted By: Entheo
analogous to purchasing a rolls royce or a bentley one is not purchasing based on the performance of the vehicle alone but rather the beautiful hand-crafted nature of it. that and the status of owning one of course.

to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.


That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".


then i daresay you know nothing about the fazioli heritage or its build process, nor the many reasons (sound being only one) that someone would spend that much money on a piano.
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#2012823 - 01/11/13 01:47 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: belsha
Originally Posted By: Entheo
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.


That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung. The difference is the sound, the dynamics, the action, and possibly the durability. So no, these pianos are purchased based on the "performance" alone, and not the "beautiful hand-crafted nature of it".
The quality, beauty, and technical aspects of the finish vary tremendously on different make pianos. Even the style of the case and plate vary although not so much if one buys the basic "contemporary" version.

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#2012893 - 01/11/13 03:10 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
bennevis Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
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Originally Posted By: belsha
I've never heard a CFX nor played one before. i'm surprised how metallic and shrill this piano can be, and how muffled but not really singing and warm in the softer passages. I had thought that Yamaha was aiming for a more european sound with their new models, this disappointed me a little. Of course this has a lot to do with prepping, mic placement and interpretation. Actually I recall having just barely tested one of their smaller CF models, and thought it was quite harsh, rather stiff too, and think I prefer their smoother, more flexible, warmer S series pianos.

So thumbs up to Fazioli for me on this one !

You must remember that these top-end Yamaha pianos sell at the same price as Faziolis or Steinways.


As you say, the prepping and voicing can make a lot of difference to the tonal character. But I don't think Yamaha was trying to aim for a European sound at all with the CFX - after all, they'd acquired Bösendorfer - but rather, wanting to compete with Steinway D, with more color and projection than afforded by their previous CF-IIIS.

For a less strident-sounding CFX in direct comparison with the Fazioli in the 2010 Chopin Competition (where the CFX made its concert hall debut, rather successfully), have a listen to the winner Yulianna Avdeeva playing the famous Polonaise in A flat, Op.53: http://youtu.be/ocoFYiOGxvA, and compare with the Fazioli played by Daniil Trifonov, in the same hall: http://youtu.be/xfqfcHJD_fs - Waltz in A flat, Op.18.
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#2013102 - 01/11/13 09:36 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
LJC Offline
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Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1518
Loc: New York
I agree that fit and finish matter and Fazioli is absolutely one of the very best if not the best as far as build quality however I still like the Steinway sound best.

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#2013136 - 01/11/13 11:28 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Numerian Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Everyone likes the Steinway sound at its best. It has warm, rich tones, wonderful harmonics, and a growling bass that is perfectly characteristic of the piano. Just remember it is the only piano sound you have heard your entire life on recordings, on the radio, and in recitals. Of course you like it. Any other piano will sound alien and strange to you.

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#2013141 - 01/11/13 11:52 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Numerian]
belsha Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 48
Loc: Paris, France
Originally Posted By: Numerian
I doubt it is the clarity that is stinging your ears.


i never said it was the clarity of the Fazioli (this 183 actually had a rather mellow sound), but the extreme projection of the piano: it is not only very loud, but very directional. Thus, even in a large room, you get a lot of echo, reflection, and when you close the lid, a very muddled, confused sound.

This is how these pianos were designed, conceived for: basically to be the smallest pianos to be able to cut through in a (small) concert hall. Thus Fazioli prides itsel that their 1m83 is more powerful than the 2m11 Steinway.

Now keep in mind, that these features that are extremely desirable in concert pianos are not necessarily desirable in home or even recording studio use (or amplified concert use for that matter).

For example, it is extremely difficult to build a concert grand that can impose itself against a 90 piece orchestra in a 2000 seat hall. It is said that only the Steinway D and the Yamaha CF3/CFX have enough projection, power and definition to do this — and the Boesendorfer Imperial and even the F308 Fazioli fail at this. The Imperial might have the most beautiful piano sound out there, but it isn't precise and powerful enough to cut through a wall of 90 strings, brass, winds and percussion.

But if you record piano sonatas or a jazz piano trio, this doesn't matter at all. You might actually be better off with the less dynamite but more subtle Boesendorfer.

The same is true in a home: you would want the longer piano for the longer strings and thus more resonant, fuller bass and medium registers. But you don't need the extra projection.
_________________________
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D
1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B
"Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!

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#2013143 - 01/11/13 11:55 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Numerian]
4evrBeginR Offline
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Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Numerian
Everyone likes the Steinway sound at its best. It has warm, rich tones, wonderful harmonics, and a growling bass that is perfectly characteristic of the piano. Just remember it is the only piano sound you have heard your entire life on recordings, on the radio, and in recitals. Of course you like it. Any other piano will sound alien and strange to you.


Wow, that is almost word for word exactly what the Steinway salesman told me at the Sherman Clay store.

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#2013146 - 01/12/13 12:04 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
belsha Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 48
Loc: Paris, France
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: belsha
Originally Posted By: Entheo
to my ear faziolis are very nice sounding pianos, a bit on the sweet side, and they are fantastic pieces of furniture (the fazioli heritage). there's no shame in spending one's money on one, IMHO.


That's just complete non-sense. As a piece of furniture, a Fazioli or Steinway is strictly identical to a Yamaha, or even a Young Chang or Wendl&Lung.
The quality, beauty, and technical aspects of the finish vary tremendously on different make pianos. Even the style of the case and plate vary although not so much if one buys the basic "contemporary" version.


Possible this is true, I have just never noticed it. I have never noticed an esthetical difference between a Fazioli, a Yamaha and a Wendl & Lung: to my eyes, they look strictly identical, they are black, shiny and have the same shape.

Some people even have complained about this concerning Yamaha, there is no exterior difference whatever between, say a 30 000 $ C series, a 60 0000$ S series and a 90 000 CF series grand. All the differences that justify the price difference are hidden inside.
_________________________
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D
1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B
"Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!

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#2013209 - 01/12/13 04:33 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19472
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: belsha
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The quality, beauty, and technical aspects of the finish vary tremendously on different make pianos. Even the style of the case and plate vary although not so much if one buys the basic "contemporary" version.


Possible this is true, I have just never noticed it. I have never noticed an esthetical difference between a Fazioli, a Yamaha and a Wendl & Lung: to my eyes, they look strictly identical, they are black, shiny and have the same shape.

Some people even have complained about this concerning Yamaha, there is no exterior difference whatever between, say a 30 000 $ C series, a 60 0000$ S series and a 90 000 CF series grand. All the differences that justify the price difference are hidden inside.
The differences are really factual and more than "possible". The shape of the pianos are also different. And not all black pianos are shiny. In Europe, the high gloss finish is most popular but in the US ebony satin is pretty common.

When one is comparing different size pianos from the same maker(like Yamaha)in the same finish of course the finishes look the same. Differences in appearance show up when comparing pianos from different makers. The Yamaha CF series is also shaped differently from other Yamaha models.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/12/13 04:35 AM)

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#2013234 - 01/12/13 05:53 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
worldlinerai Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/10
Posts: 10
Loc: 5-pts Island
Originally Posted By: belsha
Some people even have complained about this concerning Yamaha, there is no exterior difference whatever between, say a 30 000 $ C series, a 60 0000$ S series and a 90 000 CF series grand. All the differences that justify the price difference are hidden inside.


There were few exterior cosmetic differences between the C-Series Yamaha and previous CFIIIS concert grand. The pedal lyre was nickel-plated on the C-Series while the CFIIIS used real brass. The fallboard was 2 pieces glued together on the C-Series while the CFIIIS used one piece fallboard. Finally, the CFIIIS used better mahogany and maple for the piano rims.

For most people, they will not notice these differences and will appear to look similar to each other. Granted that current Yamahas have a few more differences between different series, the main improvements are within the internals (sound, touch, tone) like you said.
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#2013292 - 01/12/13 08:55 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: belsha
Thanks for the link ! I've never heard a CFX nor played one before. i'm surprised how metallic and shrill this piano can be, and how muffled but not really singing and warm in the softer passages. I had thought that Yamaha was aiming for a more european sound with their new models, this disappointed me a little. Of course this has a lot to do with prepping, mic placement and interpretation. Actually I recall having just barely tested one of their smaller CF models, and thought it was quite harsh, rather stiff too, and think I prefer their smoother, more flexible, warmer S series pianos.
I have heard the Yamaha CFX concert grand at least 10 times in concerts at Mannes. The above description(metallic, muffled but not really singing and warm, harsh)is totally at odds with my listening experience.

In fact, if the above description were correct does anyone think these pianos would be so popular with professional pianists in recitals and competitions?

As far as the action being stiff, I have not played one but a terrific professional pianist who happens to be member here, told me that the action was particularly excellent. Again, it's hard to believe that Yamaha would design a piano that they want to compete with the best concert pianos and design a "stiff" action.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/12/13 11:42 AM)

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#2013375 - 01/12/13 11:19 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: bennevis]
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2760
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
Originally Posted By: bennevis
For a less strident-sounding CFX in direct comparison with the Fazioli in the 2010 Chopin Competition (where the CFX made its concert hall debut, rather successfully), have a listen to the winner Yulianna Avdeeva playing the famous Polonaise in A flat, Op.53: http://youtu.be/ocoFYiOGxvA, and compare with the Fazioli played by Daniil Trifonov, in the same hall: http://youtu.be/xfqfcHJD_fs - Waltz in A flat, Op.18.

Thanks for posting this. The fact that they were recorded at the same hall at the same event presumes the recording system was the same for both recordings. The two pianos sound different in that the Fazioli's has greater clarity because there is less low midrange information which can tend to muddy the sound in excess quantity. So one person's muddy sound is another's rich piano timbre. Neither piano sounds strident. The Yamaha sounds a bit richer and full sounding (that's the low midrange talking), the Fazioli has the clarity due to less low midrange information. Great comparison! Thanks for posting.

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#2013377 - 01/12/13 11:20 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: 4evrBeginR]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Originally Posted By: 4evrBeginR
Originally Posted By: Numerian
Everyone likes the Steinway sound at its best. It has warm, rich tones, wonderful harmonics, and a growling bass that is perfectly characteristic of the piano. Just remember it is the only piano sound you have heard your entire life on recordings, on the radio, and in recitals. Of course you like it. Any other piano will sound alien and strange to you.


Wow, that is almost word for word exactly what the Steinway salesman told me at the Sherman Clay store.


The difference between the salesman at the Sherman Clay store and me is that I was being snarky. I don't view the omnipresence of Steinways in public settings as a favorable thing; he views it as a selling point.

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#2013380 - 01/12/13 11:22 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I have heard the Yamaha CFX concert grand at least 10 times in concert at Mannes. The above description(metallic, muffled but not really singing and warm, harsh)is totally at odds with my listening experience.

In fact, if the above description were correct does anyone think these pianos would be so popular with professional pianists in recitals and competitions?

As far as the action being stiff, I have not played one but a terrific professional pianist who happens to be member here, told me that the action was particularly excellent. Again, it's hard to believe that Yamaha would design a piano that they want to compete with the best concert pianos and design a "stiff" action.


about a month ago i had the privilege of playing a new CFX at grand piano haus (it was evidently already sold to a chicago university) and my experience was that of ploverus: beautiful cantabile quality, warm mid reg and rich, full lower reg. and the action was typically yamaha, buttery smooth and responsive. for stiff actions see steinway>new.
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#2013650 - 01/12/13 08:43 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
LJC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 1518
Loc: New York
"Just remember it is the only piano sound you have heard your entire life on recordings, on the radio, and in recitals. Of course you like it. Any other piano will sound alien and strange to you." ...Ha, Not even close to being true.

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#2013689 - 01/12/13 10:05 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: LJC]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19472
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: LJC
"Just remember it is the only piano sound you have heard your entire life on recordings, on the radio, and in recitals. Of course you like it. Any other piano will sound alien and strange to you." ...Ha, Not even close to being true.
Of course, what's "strange" is very personal but the reality is that the Steinway sound is the sound heard in the great majority of classical concerts and recordings. Of course, saying it's the "only" sound is a bit of an exaggeration, but I think the statement is mostly true.

This is not the same as saying I think this is necessarily a good thing, but I think the quoted statement is basically correct.

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#2013923 - 01/13/13 01:01 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: bennevis]
belsha Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 48
Loc: Paris, France
Originally Posted By: bennevis
[quote=belsha]


For a less strident-sounding CFX in direct comparison with the Fazioli in the 2010 Chopin Competition (where the CFX made its concert hall debut, rather successfully), have a listen to the winner Yulianna Avdeeva playing the famous Polonaise in A flat, Op.53: http://youtu.be/ocoFYiOGxvA, and compare with the Fazioli played by Daniil Trifonov, in the same hall: http://youtu.be/xfqfcHJD_fs - Waltz in A flat, Op.18.


I must say I absolutely love the Fazioli on these videos, and don't care at all for the Yamaha. This is partly personal preference (I personally prefer rounder, warmer sounding pianos to the more brillant ones, and the same is true for the voicing), but also has to do with the fact that the Fazioli pianist (Trifonov) is so much incomparably better than the Yamaha pianist (Avdeeva). So I'm not sure if the problem is listening to a stiff and cold pianist or to a stiff and cold piano....

But i think it would be difficult to argue that the Fazioli isn't the more musical of the two pianos (you might say the Yamaha is more brillant), with a rounder, warmer sound, with more breath, more subtle harmonics, maybe not as incisive as the Yamaha. It would be interesting to hear each pianist on the other's piano.

I found it more interesting two compare to different, more lyrical, pieces:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apSE6HfksMw (Ballade n° 4 on Yamaha)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUI90rbdUBU (Sonata N° 3 on Fazioli).


Edited by belsha (01/13/13 01:04 PM)
_________________________
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D
1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B
"Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!

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#2013937 - 01/13/13 01:54 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14139
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
In the discussion/competition of the giants vying for "top spot" [in the mind of some here..] wondering what Chopin would say to all of this.

Considering the prehistoric dogs that were available to his genius in the mid 1800.....

Why not enjoy the dedication of the artists giving their level best to the splendor of the man's music?

Norbert thumb


Edited by Norbert (01/13/13 01:59 PM)
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#2013938 - 01/13/13 01:55 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19472
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: belsha
I must say I absolutely love the Fazioli on these videos, and don't care at all for the Yamaha. This is partly personal preference (I personally prefer rounder, warmer sounding pianos to the more brillant ones, and the same is true for the voicing), but also has to do with the fact that the Fazioli pianist (Trifonov) is so much incomparably better than the Yamaha pianist (Avdeeva). So I'm not sure if the problem is listening to a stiff and cold pianist or to a stiff and cold piano....

But i think it would be difficult to argue that the Fazioli isn't the more musical of the two pianos (you might say the Yamaha is more brillant), with a rounder, warmer sound, with more breath, more subtle harmonics, maybe not as incisive as the Yamaha. It would be interesting to hear each pianist on the other's piano.
I think your description of the both the pianos and pianists is totally subjective, and others could easily use far different words to describe them. Some might even interchange the pianos/pianists in your posts and make that conclusion. So I think it's incredibly easy to argue with your conclusions which you stated as facts although they are subjective.


Edited by pianoloverus (01/13/13 01:57 PM)

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#2014001 - 01/13/13 04:43 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: belsha
I must say I absolutely love the Fazioli on these videos, and don't care at all for the Yamaha. This is partly personal preference (I personally prefer rounder, warmer sounding pianos to the more brillant ones, and the same is true for the voicing), but also has to do with the fact that the Fazioli pianist (Trifonov) is so much incomparably better than the Yamaha pianist (Avdeeva). So I'm not sure if the problem is listening to a stiff and cold pianist or to a stiff and cold piano....

But i think it would be difficult to argue that the Fazioli isn't the more musical of the two pianos (you might say the Yamaha is more brillant), with a rounder, warmer sound, with more breath, more subtle harmonics, maybe not as incisive as the Yamaha. It would be interesting to hear each pianist on the other's piano.
I think your description of the both the pianos and pianists is totally subjective, and others could easily use far different words to describe them. Some might even interchange the pianos/pianists in your posts and make that conclusion. So I think it's incredibly easy to argue with your conclusions which you stated as facts although they are subjective.


and i find it interesting that so much is extrapolated out of youtube videos, notorious for compression and loss of fidelity, and who knows what quality of amplification and speaker system, when evaluating the most difficult instrument in the world to record accurately under the best of circumstances. these are clearly instruments that need to be heard/played in person to properly evaluate their respective nuances.
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#2014084 - 01/13/13 08:22 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
belsha Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 48
Loc: Paris, France
You could have noticed reading my post that I used the words "personal preference" and "I love" or "I don't care" which make it clear that I was indeed only expressing a purely subjective impression, with no claim whatever to any objective "fact".
_________________________
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D
1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B
"Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!

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#2014105 - 01/13/13 09:07 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: belsha]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5279
Originally Posted By: belsha
You could have noticed reading my post that I used the words "personal preference" and "I love" or "I don't care" which make it clear that I was indeed only expressing a purely subjective impression, with no claim whatever to any objective "fact".


I don't think you applied 'personal preference' to your description of the relative merits of Avdeeva and Trifonov as pianists: you stated those as fact. Which the jury of the competition disagreed with. (I also happen to disagree with you: Trifonov has come a long way since then).

As for the relative merits of the two pianos, one man's meat is another man's poison, as they say.....(though having played both extensively, they are just different meats to me. And I'm not a vegetarian.... grin).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2015081 - 01/15/13 06:50 PM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: Kugupiyano]
LFL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/12
Posts: 72
Interesting observation:
I was watching a 2010 video of the rock group "Journey" on Directv last night. I'd seen it before, but had noticed that they had a Fazioli piano! (this was the "live in Manilla" show) Which makes me wonder why they needed a Fazioli for that situation....and they had a synthesizer/digital keyboard sitting on top of it!!! I doubt that the Manilla crowd (or any crowd) would appreciate the difference between the Fazioli and any other piano "brand"....(in other words, imho, what a waste...)
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#2015247 - 01/16/13 02:35 AM Re: Fazioli pianos [Re: bennevis]
belsha Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 48
Loc: Paris, France
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I don't think you applied 'personal preference' to your description of the relative merits of Avdeeva and Trifonov as pianists: you stated those as fact. Which the jury of the competition disagreed with. (I also happen to disagree with you: Trifonov has come a long way since then).


Ok, I agree, mea culpa. But we could say that indeed the more lyrical pianist chose the more lyrical piano, and the more brilliant, aggressive pianist chose the more brilliant and aggressive piano. So indeed, pianists choose the pianos that mirror their style.
_________________________
1950 Hamburg Steinway Model D
1980 Hamburg Steinway Model B
"Galaxy Vintage D" on my laptop when travelling (amazing sample of the 1930 Steinway D at Bauer Tonstudios, Germany) Almost feels like home!

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