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Topic Options
#1985735 - 11/12/12 01:53 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3886
I just soldered a broken repetition rail at C 88 because the hole for that stack bracket was not aligned when a new key set was installed. The bracket screw, when installed, forced the action bracket away from the repetition rail and broke the solder joint. After soldering the joint, I plugged the errant hole, and drilled a new hole that matched the bracket location. Just like new!
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www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






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#1985867 - 11/12/12 08:10 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 732
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: musicbased
Another thing i noticed was that the keyframe front rail is 2.5mm thicker in the bass than in the treble.This is another thing i don't think i've come across before, what would be the reason for this?-I thought for a bit that it might be to bed the keyframe or something due to the 'twist' in the action, but that would make it worse, as it would want to be thicker in the treble wouldn't it?

That's because its a non-parallel strike line action, that is, the strike line is not parallel to the key fronts.
Originally Posted By: musicbased
The bedding is best with the shims too..
Whew!
Originally Posted By: musicbased
This steinway is very quirky!
An understatement...it is an arcane design. It has some good points but the rails and the rail profile creates for me, shall we say, job security smile

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#1985961 - 11/13/12 01:46 AM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 105
Loc: UK
Thanks Jim.
I'm just wondering, how would you say the Hamburg steinway action compares to the NY ones?


Edited by musicbased (11/13/12 01:46 AM)
_________________________
Technician UK
www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

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#1985965 - 11/13/12 01:54 AM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 105
Loc: UK
Ok it.s 6:50am here, i must be still a bit tired!-Why does a non parallel strike line mean that the front rail must be thicker in the bass than in the treble?
_________________________
Technician UK
www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

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#1986023 - 11/13/12 06:27 AM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: musicbased
Ok it.s 6:50am here, i must be still a bit tired!-Why does a non parallel strike line mean that the front rail must be thicker in the bass than in the treble?


Greetings,
I think what was meant was the balance rail has to be lower under the longer keys to keep a constant relationship between the whippen centers, capstan contact, and balance rail. To effect this, the longer keys must be taller.
Regards,

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#1986239 - 11/13/12 03:45 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 105
Loc: UK
Ah i see, ok thanks Ed...Good to see you are not being censored on here!
_________________________
Technician UK
www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

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#1986342 - 11/13/12 08:25 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: Ed Foote]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 732
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote

I think what was meant was the balance rail has to be lower under the longer keys to keep a constant relationship between the whippen centers, capstan contact, and balance rail. To effect this, the longer keys must be taller.
Regards,


THanks Ed, this is what I was referring to.

However, as I thought about this during the day in relation to Musicbased's comment of a thicker keyframe frontrail in the bass, it really doesn't compute. I can see no reason for the frontrail dimension to change...balance rail yes, but it would decrease...but front rail??

Add to that I haven't seen S&S taper the balance rail for B's & D's. M&H does, at least under Bruce Clark, but have you seen other manufacturers address the tapered balance rail?

Jim Ialeggio
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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#1986377 - 11/13/12 10:34 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: jim ialeggio]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote

I think what was meant was the balance rail has to be lower under the longer keys to keep a constant relationship between the whippen centers, capstan contact, and balance rail. To effect this, the longer keys must be taller.
Regards,


THanks Ed, this is what I was referring to.

However, as I thought about this during the day in relation to Musicbased's comment of a thicker keyframe frontrail in the bass, it really doesn't compute. I can see no reason for the frontrail dimension to change...balance rail yes, but it would decrease...but front rail??

Add to that I haven't seen S&S taper the balance rail for B's & D's. M&H does, at least under Bruce Clark, but have you seen other manufacturers address the tapered balance rail?

Jim Ialeggio


No, Jim, I have not. And to tell the truth, until Bruce pointed this out, I had never considered the concept! Once it was drawn out, it was clear. I personally think the congruence of whip center, capstan contact, and balance point is important, but favor the alignment of the three to occur at let-off instead of at half-stroke.

This comes from my understanding of "gain geometry", reinforced by Del's opinion of sliding motion being minimal (if I understood him correctly). When I get the time, I intend to come up with the numbers,but I do know that the action ratio changes during the keystroke, and I don't want it to be decreasing during the latter half.
Regards,
I will have a post later about the four day WNG class in Haverhill. After formal training and 36 years of this work, I was still treated to at least one epiphany a day!

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#1986571 - 11/14/12 09:33 AM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
Zeno Wood Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 471
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
Looking forward to your report on the WNG class!
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Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College

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#1986644 - 11/14/12 01:14 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: jim ialeggio]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2359
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: jim ialeggio
Originally Posted By: musicbased
Another thing i noticed was that the keyframe front rail is 2.5mm thicker in the bass than in the treble.This is another thing i don't think i've come across before, what would be the reason for this?-I thought for a bit that it might be to bed the keyframe or something due to the 'twist' in the action, but that would make it worse, as it would want to be thicker in the treble wouldn't it?

That's because its a non-parallel strike line action, that is, the strike line is not parallel to the key fronts.
Originally Posted By: musicbased
The bedding is best with the shims too..
Whew!
Originally Posted By: musicbased
This steinway is very quirky!
An understatement...it is an arcane design. It has some good points but the rails and the rail profile creates for me, shall we say, job security smile

Jim Ialeggio


A New York B is a parallel strike and all the keys are approximately the same length.


Ed Foote ... Are you in Haverhill now??
_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1986668 - 11/14/12 02:13 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 105
Loc: UK
Larry, do you know why the keyframe front rail might be 2.5 mm thicker in the bass than the treble?
Setting the dip on this is weird, in the bass i can only just get enough dip with no paper punchings, but in the treble i need loads!
_________________________
Technician UK
www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

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#1986669 - 11/14/12 02:27 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: Larry Buck]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Hi Larry,
No, I was last week, and realized that your place was just one floor above Jude's shop when I went by there. Wish we could have met, but perhaps in the future!
Thanks,
Ed

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#1986686 - 11/14/12 03:18 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2359
Loc: Lowell MA
Originally Posted By: musicbased
Larry, do you know why the keyframe front rail might be 2.5 mm thicker in the bass than the treble?
Setting the dip on this is weird, in the bass i can only just get enough dip with no paper punchings, but in the treble i need loads!


I apologize, I don't have a good answer for you. I can email someone at Steinway NY and ask. You can do that as well. Kent Webb is a great source of information as is David Kirkland.

I don't have either of their email addresses here where I am. If you would like, I will put my hands on them and send it to you.

Ed ... Yes. Thank You ... I missed your evening at Steinert's, I apologize. Bill Shull pulled me to San Antonio TX to help document an 1858 Steinway Grand ... All original with the original Henry Jr. Action ... all original ... How could I resist ??

_________________________
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/EJBuckPerformances

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#1986691 - 11/14/12 03:31 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
musicbased Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/23/12
Posts: 105
Loc: UK
Thats ok, thanks Larry. Yes i did email Kent when i first had the initial action twist problem.
He replied wanting to know the serial number, so i sent him that but he never replied after that!
I'm sure he's very busy.

I'm just curious really as it seems to work alright anyway, it just looks weird!

Thanks very much again to everyone who responded, it's actually turning out to be a very nice piano despite all of it's quirks!
_________________________
Technician UK
www.soundcloud.com/musicfield

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#1986763 - 11/14/12 07:33 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: musicbased]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
the height differnce I noticed was at the balance rail, (plus satck height) and the front rail was following, but it was a 2 mm range maximum between basses and high treble (with key leverage variation between basses and treble) . I dont recall on what models.

Regularely noticed a HC heigh varying (as WC) 1 mm +- not more.

When the keys have a progressive ration, the action position is lightly tweaked (1 mm range) so the "mid blow" is respected (a little later, as said Ed, the acceleration can lower after the beginning of friction moments for let off) ... we may imagine that none of the parts are rigid, that makes more difficult to visualize what happens, but it can be felt if you have a pianist hand)

But some actions are setup with no acceleration but the one on the shank (there the leverage varies much between rest and let off position)
The action at rest have the capstan whippen heel is located on the line of centers (I dont know the exact geometric terminology)


It is supposed to adsorb better the different friction moments (dampers, drop/let off) more progressive touch.

I am not a big fan of this setup, but I can understand the idea. I believe it is just a trend...




Edited by Kamin (11/14/12 07:36 PM)
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#1986790 - 11/14/12 08:46 PM Re: Steinway action lowering [Re: Ed Foote]
jim ialeggio Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 732
Loc: shirley, MA
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
I will have a post later about the four day WNG class in Haverhill.


I'm up at Haverhill as we speak all this week for the WNG class as well. As expected the use of the action parts is being really well clarified and expanded upon. But, as usual, the informal unexpected chats among the techs Bruce and Kirk Burgett, today about things belly-wise, have been the unexpected traded gems.

Very enjoyable.

Jim Ialeggio


Edited by jim ialeggio (11/14/12 08:47 PM)
_________________________
Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA

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