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Quote: Derulux

"I would like to try to help, but I am confused. What do you mean when you say you "can't count"? Do you mean you literally can't count 1,2,3,4? Or, can you not determine the rhythm of a particular group of notes? Or can you not keep a steady tempo while playing? Or is it something else entirely? Each one is, potentially, a separate issue, so I'd like to start with the one that you think is affecting you the most"


I can count 1234 ... Mathematically. I'm not dyslexic in math. But I can't count musically at all. It just doesn't make sense. I don't know where the numbers lie at all. And if I try to count I end up "singing" the numbers and that just screws it up more. I can stay fairly "steady" when I'm just trying to play it without bothering with the counting. But that's when I end up sometimes speeding up or slowing down in certain parts ... that I probably shouldn't. Until I've just done it enough times that it starts to fit itself.

Thanks Derulux smile

Last edited by soundofsilenc3; 11/10/12 07:15 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bobpickle
Originally Posted by soundofsilenc3
* Just to add. If you can't count. Are you just "ruining" pieces by repetitively trying to play them? Even if you ultimately come up with an accurate result note by note?


How do you suppose you come up with an accurate performance of the piece if you "can't" count? I would argue that if your performance sounds even at all rhythmic that you can count, you just can't consciously focus on it. When you listen to a performance of a piece that you like and then proceed to learn and eventually reproduce a somewhat-similar performance, you're employing your sense of the rhythm into learning/playing the piece. Because of your metronome use, you can likely feel, or at least orally count or physically tap your foot to keep a beat (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4...), but you may not be able to purely mentally consciously focus on it at the same time as what notes your playing. I've heard this takes years to become proficient at


Thanks Bobpickle. This is a good clarification. I think your right. I can't consciously/mentally focus on counting, but I can produce accurate results after practicing 50 million times over and over again. I listen to recordings alot and really try my hardest to produce the most accurate version I can.

It's just that it really started to get to me because I thought maybe even after all the effort, pieces will still be amateurish because I have literally NO GRASP on counting what so ever. I could be subliminally learning to count - because playing a piece accurately requires correct rhythm. In this case I'm hoping timing and rhythm will just come naturally. Or maybe I'm learning rhythm without actually realizing it. But I must say, there have been times I would have loved to have this "natural phenomena" occur and yet I was quite heavily disappointed frown

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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by soundofsilenc3
I need some advice. I've been playing now for a little over a year and half. I can't count beats what so ever. Every time I try to count I end up trying to "sing" the counting, which only makes it worst when the whole aspect of counting already makes no sense.

I've pushed myself on with scales, with learning new pieces, very slowly note for note, using my metronome with scales, really trying to get a feel for the music based on how the notes appear.

Recently I tried playing an old song I learned direct from the sheet. It's a song I've memorized and I can still play it without the sheet "in my own way" so to speak. (I say this mainly because I can't count) But when I tried to play it from paper I couldn't do it. It almost felt as if I'd have to start all over again. And it truly was devastating considering I learned this piece in the past and I STILL CAN play it without looking at the sheet.

I just don't understand if I'm really making any "progress" at all. And worst off I don't know what to do to fix it. I started a thread a while back and had some nice replies and great advice from the members here. One of the things I'm still puzzled over is "skipping counting initially and just focusing on making a piece your own" "bringing feeling to the notes based on how they appear on the page" and not necessarily concentrating on STRICT counting in the beginning stages.

The problem is that's exactly what I've done for a year and half now. With every thing I've practiced. With every piece I've learned whether I've memorized it or am currently studying it. And look where I've ended up. I almost feel now as if I've just kicked myself and accomplished nothing. I go to a lesson and my teacher tries and tries to make me count and it just doesn't make sense. I can't do it. If the reason for my failures are due to counting, due to not being able to "space" the notes out correctly, playing certain notes too fast or too slow, (even if the end result sounds accurate and no one can tell) then the only thing I've taught myself so far is how to sound like a good player in front of a person who doesn't know anything about music.


Have you talked to your teacher about your feelings? This will help tremendously because then they will know how to better teach you. Communication is essential between student and teacher. S/he wants you to succeed but can't read minds in order to give you everything you need. You need to meet them part way.

As for the reason for counting out loud, yes it is hard and makes you play slowly, but believe it or not, it actually does help: 1) it makes you realize when you've played an incorrect rhythm, so every time you "mess up" the counting and have to redo that measure, you are actually self-correcting, and 2) it forces you to play a bit slower.

I'd like to also add that counting MUST be done when you are first learning a piece. If you try to play the notes first and add counting later, it will not work because you will have gotten in your ears the incorrect rhythm and will make your counting match that instead of your playing matching the counting. Likewise, after you've learned how a piece sounds you can stop the counting and only use it in spots that are still rhythmically troublesome. There is a point after which counting out loud is no longer helpful.

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This scares me because as soon as I sit in front of someone who knows what they are doing, their going to hear all those "technicalities" that make a piece sound horrible to an experienced player. And that really makes me hang my head even lower in shame.

This is the result of unrealistic expectations of yourself. It also shows you are a very caring person because you want to please your audience, but this is to your own detriment. When you are talking to a friend about how your day went, or a special event in your life, do you worry about proper grammar and enunciation? No, you simply want to share with your friend. You need to approach playing for anyone (including your teacher) in this same way. You are sharing this piece with them, you are sharing the progress you've made on this piece, or even, you are sharing the difficulty you are having with this piece. Your teacher is your partner on this journey, not someone to impress each week. Stop trying to impress and be humble. Know and accept that you are a beginner (it takes several years to learn to play piano even at a passable intermediate level) and that you have lots to learn. This will go a long way to making lessons more productive.

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I've read so many articles and watched countless videos. People say "When sight reading, if you make a mistake KEEP GOING" but then other people say "play VERY slowly note by note, press a note ONLY when certain your hitting the correct key ... keep repeating this .. you can't sight read what you can't play"

Well if I can ask. Which is it? Keep going and screw the mistakes? or slow down and pay dreadful attention to detail?


It is both. First of all, sightreading and reading through music you are learning are two different things. Sight reading in music refers only to the first 2-3 times you are playing a piece, where you are concerned only with playing through the piece as best you can, adding as many details as you are able to. Reading a piece you are learning and plan to invest weeks or even months in will go much differently.

So for sight reading, yes, you keep going no matter what, and you try to pick a tempo in which you can best accomplish this. In reading a piece you are learning, it is best to go very slowly, slow enough where you can process all the rhythms and notes correctly. Generally, the level of piece you can sight read will always be lower than the level of piece you can learn over time.

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I've paid attention to everything that I possibly can constantly and consistently. And now comes the time where there's nothing else left to feel but some sort of failure, and I just don't know what to do about it. If anyone can help. Thanks guys smile


I don't really think this is a fair statement. I understand you are frustrated, but to say you've paid attention to everything constantly and consistently to me says that you are determined to give up, and not really a fair assessment of the situation. I think it's better to say, "I dont' know what to do" than to assume you've tried it all and there's nothing more you can do. I know how you feel and I'm sympathetic to your situation, but the way we speak to ourselves is extremely important, and you are telling yourself how to fail. You've not gone through this process before, so how do you know what the outcome will be? How do you know how many steps it will take? Simply put, you don't. Believe it or not, this is a pride issue. It is far easier to accept that you've done everything and it didn't work, because then the blame is on the process and not you for it not working. Whereas if you accept that there is probably something you're missing, you realize that you just haven't found the solution yet and the journey continues.

But really, the latter isn't so bad, is it? I'm sure there are pieces you can play well, even if they are simple. Why not remind yourself of your successes, and enjoy the process of learning more about problem-solving and how to play more difficult things? There is beautiful music at all levels to be enjoyed.


Thank you Morodiene. Great assessment and wonderful advice. I think your right on all levels. My teacher tries to get to me count all the time. She writes the counting in constantly. And to be very honest. I think its me for some reason. I see the notes as they should be counted but I somehow "feel" its too slow or doesn't sound right even when counted correctly. It's almost like you hit this gap when you get to a long note and I find myself asking myself in my head "Ok what am I waiting for here?" it literally "feels" "to long or wrong or like there is something off with it" I really don't know how to explain that it's just a feeling I get when I play something.

I think I should make a few more recordings of a couple pieces and post them here along with sheets. Just to see what happens. It may very well help. It's funny that you mention counting is only good when first learning a piece ... because I remember telling my teacher "If I had to go back and literally COUNT each piece I know how to play .... I'd be screwed" and after saying this I thought to myself .... does that make everything I've done completely wrong? All the practice I put in just to have done it all incorrectly? I think that's what lead me to shame and sadness in the first place.

I don't think I have to much pride. But I know I care ALOT. I really want to be good at this. I want to be flawless at this and I'm trying my heart out I really am. It's just so easy to get lost and the line blurred between what it means to succeed and I do have a tendency to be really hard on myself smile

Thanks so much for the advice. It means alot smile


Last edited by soundofsilenc3; 11/10/12 07:40 PM.
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Sounds like there's a disconnect between what you've been doing and what your teacher is trying to teach you. Ignoring the "counting" and just playing the note in the rhythm that sounds/feels right is one way to play. Counting the beats and playing exactly the rhythm that's written is a different way to play.

This comes up a lot with someone who can play songs by ear but not read music. If they want to learn to play from sheet music, they sometimes have difficulty backing up and trying to play a familiar song by a different method (reading it rather than just playing what sounds right).

So really, you just need to ask yourself if you really want to play music with the rhythms as written badly enough to bite the bullet and re-learn stuff you can already play by your accustomed method. It would be like re-learning to play golf left-handed after you could play pretty good right-handed. It's not impossible but it is frustrating.


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Originally Posted by soundofsilenc3
Or maybe I'm learning rhythm without actually realizing it.


That would be my educated guess. Verbalized counting might also be getting in your way: I've seen that happen often with students. Can you dance your pieces, or move to them? If so, your rhythm is probably fine.

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Wow, I just read your post Morodiene and may I say, I think I'm in love 3hearts

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soundofsilence@ I have thought about your post and the replies so far a lot, because it reminds me a lot of my own troubles with keeping and learning rhythm. In a recent post of mine I got a lot of great responses. Instead of repeating everything, I'll just post the link: https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...e%20rhythm%20of%20a%20n.html#Post1982575

Motivated by the advice that I got, I borrowed a book (Rhytm, from Andrew Lewis) from the library about rhythm. I haven't finished it yet, but something that stuck in my mind was how much the writer stressed that to develop a sense of rhythm, one does not only have to develop the... how shall I phrase it? The technical side, like counting out a piece. But that one also needs to feel the underlying rhythm and pulse.

I remember a glorious moment when I was working on a (for me) relatively new piece. I had started with counting, but because it got on my nerves I stopped to count out loud during the piece. Instead of counting, I was *feeling* the beat and played the rhythm according to that internal metronom. A moment later, that moment shattered. My teacher who sat beside me insisted that I played the rhythm fine, so stopping to count was apparently not detrimental.

When I read your post, I got the feeling that you are trying to think too much, trying to be too analytical and that your unease come from not allowing yourself to feel the beat and rhythm of the piece. The next thought I had was: "Pretty much like myself..."

Like you, I am just a beginner struggling with rhythm. But maybe we are really both suffering from the same kind of trouble... I decided to try the suggested exercises for developing a feeling for rhytm. Maybe you want to try it, too?


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+1. This is another reason I like The Rhythm Bible and cd. You can listen to the groove, see the notation for it, and tap it out--whatever helps you get it into your body. I suggested the specialized metronome earlier in the thread because that way you can start out as slowly as you need to to play along and control the tempo, gradually increasing it.


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There really needs to be an "It Gets Better" campaign for pianists.

I've been playing for 30 or so years and some days I feel exactly the way you do.

Your brain HATES to change. Learning requires the expenditure of lots of chemical energy. Watching television takes relatively little. Your brain would rather spend only a little energy instead of a lot of energy. Music is a complex of interrelated skills and for most people, me included, it takes a long time. And most music practitioners, me included, have things that, for whatever reason, their brain doesn't immediately grok, that take focused study by agonizing inches.

Those voices inside your head that say, "You're bad. you can't do this," are just your brain's way of trying to trick you. It's saying, "You're making me work--I just wanna lay about."

Pay those complaints no mind, accentuate your talents, keep chipping away at your flaws, and you will improve. The secret to improving at the piano is time, sweat, and bullheadedness.

It Gets Better. Really.


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Well I'm a beginner my self (2+ yrs) and when I first began lessons I did not want to study theory at all. Fortunately, I landed a teacher that said to me "then I'm probably not the teacher for you". I wanted her for my teacher (she's great) and so started both theory and piano. I had NEVER seen a theory book and only piddled around on my Mom's piano.

Now two years later, I so appreciate the things I have learned; of course I still have days when I get very discouraged and think I should be making more progress. I will then get out my old lessons from past effort and I realize that I have really come a long way from my beginning lessons.

My teacher tells me I expect too much too soon and of course she's right. Look back and try to remember how difficult those early lessons/songs seemed back then compared to now. thumb

Please be patient with yourself.


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Originally Posted by Starr Keys
You can listen to the groove, see the notation for it, and tap it out
In 3 pages this is the first suggestion to tap it out. This is how I figure out difficult rhythms. The left hand taps the beat, the right hand taps out the notated rhythm. Once you know what the rhythm is supposed to be playing it is only a matter of getting the notes right.


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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Originally Posted by Starr Keys
You can listen to the groove, see the notation for it, and tap it out
In 3 pages this is the first suggestion to tap it out. This is how I figure out difficult rhythms. The left hand taps the beat, the right hand taps out the notated rhythm. Once you know what the rhythm is supposed to be playing it is only a matter of getting the notes right.


Thanks for the +1, Steve. I had despaired of ever being able to read certain rhythms (like 2 against 3) when I was a kid learning with traditional lessons and then discovered as an adult that I could learn difficult rhythms this way. That is why I rarely buy a song book without a cd included with it (that and the fact that I've learned to do my own by ear arrangements).

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