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#1976099 - 10/20/12 06:14 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
stephane__ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 13
Loc: paris, france
if using the nu1 sounds, I personnaly set volume at maximum, it sounds just right to me. the output is not rubbish, just not very loud.

Still I actually never play with internal sounds, I am using galaxy and emotional piano virtual instruments all the time (sounds way bettter), so I adjust volume on my audio interface instead. I tend to ajust it slightly higher than nu1 so it covers hammer sounds.
again with the right headphones this is a non issue. also if you don't use an headphone amp, you should consider headphones with low impedance, the DT770 I tried was the 250ohm version and is clearly not loud enough.

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#1976556 - 10/21/12 01:16 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: stephane__]
Emil M Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 7
Pardon my ignorance, can somebody please explain me the difference in using
32 ohm, 80 ohm, 250 ohm or 600 ohm headphones on a digital piano.

Thanks.

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#1976618 - 10/21/12 05:59 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I asked a friend of mine who has a degree in Electrical Engineering about a similar issue I had when making a choice between two different headphones (and their impedance rating).

Here's what I asked him ...

I would like to compare two different headphones based on their specifications. My primary concern is if my electric piano can drive the one set of headphones loud enough.

At the moment I’m using a set of AKG 240 MKII - 91 dB/mW, 104 dB/V … 55 ohms impedance My electric piano’s volume control for these headphones is past 12 o’clock (it goes to 3’oclock). I can even crank the piano wide open and play. In other words, these headphones are just efficient enough for my use. I would prefer to be able to crank the volume more but this combination is adequate.

The headphones I’m thinking of buying are the Sennheiser HD 650’s. What information I can get from Sennheiser is this, 103 dB (1 Vrms) … 300 ohms.

I don’t know the output of the headphone amp for the piano. Can you deduce from what I’ve given if you think the HD 650’s could be driven loud enough by the piano? If they were both 55 ohms I would think the Sennheiser would be possibly slightly louder, one dB, but it is 300 ohms, I’m concerned … and I don’t feel like buying a headphone amp. In that case I ‘d just keep the AKG’s and be done with it.


... and his reply

(from Wikipedia)
In electrical engineering, the maximum power transfer theorem states that, to obtain maximum external power from a source with a finite internal resistance, the resistance of the load must be equal to the resistance of the source as viewed from the output terminals. Moritz von Jacobi published the maximum power (transfer) theorem around 1840, which is also referred to as "Jacobi's law".[1]
The theorem results in maximum power transfer, and not maximum efficiency. If the resistance of the load is made larger than the resistance of the source, then efficiency is higher, since a higher percentage of the source power is transferred to the load, but the magnitude of the load power is lower since the total circuit resistance goes up.
If the load resistance is smaller than the source resistance, then most of the power ends up being dissipated in the source, and although the total power dissipated is higher, due to a lower total resistance, it turns out that the amount dissipated in the load is reduced.

So, to get maximum power transfer your source impedance (piano's amplifier output) must equal the load impedance (headphones). However, your existing headphones have a much lower impedance than the anticipated new headphones which probably means that you will see better efficiency (and higher perceived volume) from the new headphones since it takes less current to drive a 300 ohm load than a 55 ohm load.

Hope this helps.



Edited by Dave Horne (10/21/12 08:29 AM)
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

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#1976627 - 10/21/12 07:00 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: Emil M]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3802
Loc: North Carolina
Low impedance phones may be louder than high impedance phones.

600 ohm phones will likely be so faint as to require a headphone amplifier.
250 ohm phones might be, too.
80 ohm phones likely will not need one.
32 ohm phones will not.
Originally Posted By: Emil M
Can somebody please explain me the difference in using 32 ohm, 80 ohm, 250 ohm or 600 ohm headphones on a digital piano.

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#1976667 - 10/21/12 09:44 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
Hi, I'm looking for a good stagepiano for my headphones ;-)

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#1976698 - 10/21/12 11:24 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: MacMacMac]
Emil M Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 7
So for a stage piano, what would be the advantage of having a
250 ohm or 600 ohm headphone with a headphone amp, over a
32 ohm headphone?

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#1976704 - 10/21/12 11:41 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
If you like the particular sound of a headphone that alone is the advantage, right?
_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1976745 - 10/21/12 01:47 PM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: Dave Horne]
Emil M Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 7

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#1976778 - 10/21/12 03:53 PM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5276
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I found this ... AKG Tips
Headphones impedance

The two important electrical specifications for a pair of headphones are the impedance of the phone transducer itself and its on-the-ear sensitivity.

So-called low impedance headphones may vary from 75 ohms up to about 150 ohms. Phones in this impedance range may be directly plugged into the headphone jack routinely found on recording and playback equipment. Higher impedances, such as 600 ohms, are more useful in studio installations where many units may be wired in parallel for studio monitoring applications.
Headphone sensitivity is usually stated as the in-the-ear sound pressure level produced by one milliwatt (mW) of audio input. Typical sensitivity ratings of AKG headphones run from 88 dB per mW to 105 dB per mW. You can see that very little power is needed to drive a stereo headphone pair to very high listening levels.

Doing a little bit of math will show that a signal of .775 Vrms will produce one mW in a 600 ohm load. That same signal will produce 8 mW in a 75 ohm load, a difference of about 9 dB. So it is clear that 600 ohm phones and the lower impedance models should not be intermixed in the same application. The 600-ohm models are more rugged than low impedance models in that the higher resistance coils are less susceptible to burn out than low impedance models.
To produce 200 mW in a 600-ohm load a signal of 11 V is needed. This shows that the advantage of high impedance headphones is that they can be used with almost any amplifier output without any risk of being damaged by overload, and you can connect up to 10 or more pairs to the same output. However, they may be not loud enough with some portable recording devices.
Low impedance headphones will sound louder with devices with low output voltages such as portable MD recorders etc., you cannot use more than one pair of headphones at the same output simultaneously.



_________________________
website

mp3\wav files

AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1983684 - 11/07/12 07:12 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
stephane__ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 13
Loc: paris, france
just tested a couple other headphones which ended to be my favorite of all tested before, next to sennheiser 280.

Audio technica ATH m50:
I read very different reviews of this one but as most were very positive I decided to give it a go despite the fact it seemed to accentuate bass.
I'm glad I did, I love these headphones. the bass is indeed a little too pronounced but it is not a muddy overwhelming bass, it doesn't get over other frequencies much so the low notes stay very clear.
at the same time I don't get the same impression when listening to music where I feel the bass is not that good. it just seems to somehow marry with the piano much better.

shure 940 : MUCH better than 840, better balance and very clear sound. I really like this one. the lower range is better than ATH50, I tend to find the rest a bit less interesting, but they sound very close, the 940 just sounds a little muted in comparison. these headphones have much more presence than 280, not as transparent but more relaxing to my ear as the 280 is obviously very treble-ish

all in all I can't decide between the two so they are the 2 pairs I am keeping.
I am a bit disapinted I didn't find the perfect headphones but they wouldn't be far from these last two to me which are the closest to 280 clarity, less transparent but with better balance.


Edited by stephane__ (11/07/12 10:25 AM)

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#1983706 - 11/07/12 09:06 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
BenWaB3 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/05/12
Posts: 9
On the advice of a member of the Clonewheel forum over 10 years ago I picked up a set of Grado SR-80 phones, now the SR-80i, & really liked them. They became my phones of choice for regular music listening as well & stood up all those years w/ no problems - until a couple months ago when cat throw-up finally did them in. I plan on getting another pair allthough it looks like we may have to get them directly from Grado from now on. For $100 a pair they are outstanding phones that have somewhat of a cult following in the hifi world as well. They are open back & I see there has been a bit of pro/con going on as far as that aspect goes. I actually have a pair of the iGrado's for the mp3 players as well. And for the USA members of the forum - the 60i's, 80i's & everything above that are still made in the US. Just my unsolicited $0.02 worth.

Ben

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#1983739 - 11/07/12 11:49 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: greekpianist1]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
I guess I can toss in my experience as well.

I own two sets of nice(ish) headphones, the ATH M50 and the Sennheiser HD595.

The Sennheiser is dramatically better in terms of soundstage, detail, and realism. It's much easier to hear the beautiful subtleties of the music but also much easier to hear the shortcomings. I would actually not recommend them for use with your onboard sounds because they work too well and you will be able to tell that your onboard sounds stink.

The M50 sound pretty good, for regular headphones. They have a lot more bass than the Sennheisers (which are probably weak on the bass, actually). They are also really good at isolating, while the sennheisers, with their open design, don't isolate at all--you can hear everything in the room as if you didn't have headphones on at all. This can be a plus (in the m50's) because you don't hear background noise or the sounds of your action.

I eventually took my M50's to work, where I use them to block out the sound of my coworkers. I use only the Sennheiser with my piano (and Vintage D).


Edited by gvfarns (11/07/12 11:49 AM)

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#1984503 - 11/09/12 06:24 AM Re: Good Headphones for Stage piano [Re: gvfarns]
stephane__ Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 13
Loc: paris, france
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I would actually not recommend them for use with your onboard sounds because they work too well and you will be able to tell that your onboard sounds stink.


very good point, regular headphones will hide onboard sounds are pretty cheap, both stores I played avantgrands and NU1 had bad headphones and I just couldn't hear how the piano really sounds so I had to bring mine.
with my own headphones I realised oundboard sounds are really poor, it just won't stand comparison to galaxy vienna for example (the one I use the most), so if you are not using a virtual instrument, the best headphones may not be the best choice.

also the headphones will work good or bad depending on the sound you use. for example the ATHm50 is not good at all with emotional piano as the instrument has a lot of bass already. I think it is my favourite headphone with the the thinner sounding galaxy Vienna.[/quote]

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